Sinn Fein are not a Normal Political Party

[SoundMan]

Which politicians are in morbid fear of a UI? There is a proper way of doing this, I agree all aspects need to be discussed,
Pre brexit it wasnt even on the horizon , Polls here constantly show high support but the flag and anthem are held dearly by many
and they will not sacrifice them,

Those politicians who don't even want to DISCUSS the holding of a border poll and preparing for one. You surely know what party that is jimmy, and that's just in the south.

You seem to be claiming that flag and anthem are more dearly held by many than actual reunification itself - that would be illogical imho

 

[Two Pour Bore]

Those politicians who don't even want to DISCUSS the holding of a border poll and preparing for one. You surely know what party that is jimmy, and that's just in the south.

You seem to be claiming that flag and anthem are more dearly held by many than actual reunification itself - that would be illogical imho

It'd be a bit pushy to start talking about it before the north really starts going for one. Don't want the orange lads saying we were interfering.

 

[Stacky]

Those politicians who don't even want to DISCUSS the holding of a border poll and preparing for one. You surely know what party that is jimmy, and that's just in the south.

Why would they?

Voters concerns currently are health, housing and the cost of living etc with any idea of a border poll way down the bottom of the list.

They are not entirely stupid.

 

[SoundMan]

It'd be a bit pushy to start talking about it before the north really starts going for one. Don't want the orange lads saying we were interfering.

That ship has sailed.

Whether the orange lads like it or not (and many of them may not like it) we are fully invested in whether or not Ireland reunifies. The Good Friday Agreement is now nearly 25 years old. Time to stop pussy-footing around and being overly sensitive about what the orange lads might think of us actually discussing and preparing for something that was part of that agreement.

 

[Two Pour Bore]

That ship has sailed.

Whether the orange lads like it or not (and many of them may not like it) we are fully invested in whether or not Ireland reunifies. The Good Friday Agreement is now nearly 25 years old. Time to stop pussy-footing around and being overly sensitive about what the orange lads might think of us actually discussing and preparing for something that was part of that agreement.

The poll is for the north to entertain first. All Ireland parties are fine and good in the political landscape, I have no issue with that, co-operation and a closer Ireland is great. What I do have issue with is Ireland (Republic of, according to the football) driving what should be entirely the choice of the people in the north. That's what the Good Friday agreement was and is, and I still remember the day it was announced/agreed when my father called me into the television to say, "History is being made. "

The people in the north have come a long way since it was agreed, and it's up to them to define their future as they wish. It's not up to us—we who have relinquished our claim to the north—to push them into something they are not ready for, don't want to do, and aren't willing to lead in their own right.

To bring up The Troubles and all of what happened then... I have a lot of sympathy for the young fellas and wans growing up in that environment. There were peaceful means of protest and there were violent means. I don't know what it was like to live in that environment so I won't and don't blame anyone who grew up in it for whatever they did. I don't know what I would do under such circumstances myself. I do blame the "better" people. The older people, the educated people, the people pushing and pulling others around. And more than anything I have little sympathy for the people living in comfy Cork for getting involved in violent situations entirely of their own volition when there was no oppression or discrimination impacting them individually driving them to do so. I'd say the same here. We, the established country of Ireland, should not be driving and cajoling the north into action. It's up to them to decide. They're the ones who lived with decades of horrors, not us. It's up to them, and their children, to do what they want to do. And if what they want to do is "nothing at all" we have to accept that too. It's not our decision. It's no longer our "cause." The people of the north's future is entirely their own.

 

[SoundMan]

The poll is for the north to entertain first. All Ireland parties are fine and good in the political landscape, I have no issue with that, co-operation and a closer Ireland is great. What I do have issue with is Ireland (Republic of, according to the football) driving what should be entirely the choice of the people in the north. That's what the Good Friday agreement was and is, and I still remember the day it was announced/agreed when my father called me into the television to say, "History is being made. "

The people in the north have come a long way since it was agreed, and it's up to them to define their future as they wish. It's not up to us—we who have relinquished our claim to the north—to push them into something they are not ready for, don't want to do, and aren't willing to lead in their own right.

To bring up The Troubles and all of what happened then... I have a lot of sympathy for the young fellas and wans growing up in that environment. There were peaceful means of protest and there were violent means. I don't know what it was like to live in that environment so I won't and don't blame anyone who grew up in it for whatever they did. I don't know what I would do under such circumstances myself. I do blame the "better" people. The older people, the educated people, the people pushing and pulling others around. And more than anything I have little sympathy for the people living in comfy Cork for getting involved in violent situations entirely of their own volition when there was no oppression or discrimination impacting them individually driving them to do so. I'd say the same here. We, the established country of Ireland, should not be driving and cajoling the north into action. It's up to them to decide. They're the ones who lived with decades of horrors, not us. It's up to them, and their children, to do what they want to do. And if what they want to do is "nothing at all" we have to accept that too. It's not our decision. It's no longer our "cause." The people of the north's future is entirely their own.

Can you explain how exactly discussing what would be needed in preparation for a Border Poll, already envisaged in a 25 year old agreement, would be "to push them into something they are not ready for etc"???

Holding a BP would be to push them fair enough, but discussing the preparations for something that is inevitable at some stage in the future certainly isn't pushing anybody into anything. And I think pushing people into something could have an adverse affect on wavering voters so would be counter productive.

Nationalists in the north who found themselves through no fault of their own on the wrong side of a very arbitrary line and suffered accordingly saw our Articles 2 and 3 removed as part of the GFA negotiations with a Border Poll in the future as a quid pro quo. I think it would be to cut them further adrift to now say "sort yerselves out up north, it's nothing to do with us and we in the south are not even going to prepare for a BP until it's all been sorted in the north first". Fail to prepare, then prepare to fail.

 

[Two Pour Bore]

Nationalists in the north who found themselves through no fault of their own on the wrong side of a very arbitrary line and suffered accordingly saw our Articles 2 and 3 removed as part of the GFA negotiations with a Border Poll in the future as a quid pro quo. I think it would be to cut them further adrift to now say "sort yerselves out up north, it's nothing to do with us and we in the south are not even going to prepare for a BP until it's all been sorted in the north first". Fail to prepare, then prepare to fail.

How do you prepare for something that isn't on the cards in the north?

If it happens in six months there'll be a specific set of concerns. If it happens in three years, six years, a decade or two decades there'll be other sets of concerns. The whole situation is fluid. Both countries continue to change and evolve. What matters now, to Ireland, could be very different to what matters in ten years time. Talking about it now when the north hasn't put anything serious down about it would be pre-empting them. We'd be coming up with answers to questions that aren't being asked, and those answers would be stuck in a specific time and chart a history of our then-current state that would have no relevance should a border poll come up in five years time.

Never mind my original point that if the Irish government are putting this on the table before the NI government do it's pushing the issue. Something that's not our place to do so.

 

[SoundMan]

How do you prepare for something that isn't on the cards in the north?

If it happens in six months there'll be a specific set of concerns. If it happens in three years, six years, a decade or two decades there'll be other sets of concerns. The whole situation is fluid. Both countries continue to change and evolve. What matters now, to Ireland, could be very different to what matters in ten years time. Talking about it now when the north hasn't put anything serious down about it would be pre-empting them. We'd be coming up with answers to questions that aren't being asked, and those answers would be stuck in a specific time and chart a history of our then-current state that would have no relevance should a border poll come up in five years time.

Never mind my original point that if the Irish government are putting this on the table before the NI government do it's pushing the issue. Something that's not our place to do so.

You prepare by gathering information, making plans and models. Like how many people from the north commute to the south on a daily basis, how many do so in the opposite direction. Where would the biggest benefit be gained from improved infrastructure? What are the primary concerns that people on either side of the border would have if there was reunification? What type of local, provincial(?), national government be best and most acceptable? What impact would it likely have on employment, exchequer, customs and excise, and a myriad of other issues. ALL of which need to be discussed in advance. We don't want another Brexit type of vote where one side or another are hoodwinked into voting for or against something by billboards and scaremongering. Actual factual information is required and that will take likely some years to get and model and plan for the best post reunification scenario should it come about.

The only people who want to rush this seem to be people who want it to fail. It should be done in such a way taht all the facts and figures (as best we can glean them) pro and con will be available to voters, rather than hype and disinformation. And if it is to be a NO then let it be with as much of the information as possible, rather than a "I don't want to hear about it until 6 months before and then lets have a headlong rush at it" type scenario.

 

[Stacky]

You prepare by gathering information, making plans and models. Like how many people from the north commute to the south on a daily basis, how many do so in the opposite direction. Where would the biggest benefit be gained from improved infrastructure? What are the primary concerns that people on either side of the border would have if there was reunification? What type of local, provincial(?), national government be best and most acceptable? What impact would it likely have on employment, exchequer, customs and excise, and a myriad of other issues. ALL of which need to be discussed in advance. We don't want another Brexit type of vote where one side or another are hoodwinked into voting for or against something by billboards and scaremongering. Actual factual information is required and that will take likely some years to get and model and plan for the best post reunification scenario should it come about.

The only people who want to rush this seem to be people who want it to fail. It should be done in such a way taht all the facts and figures (as best we can glean them) pro and con will be available to voters, rather than hype and disinformation. And if it is to be a NO then let it be with as much of the information as possible, rather than a "I don't want to hear about it until 6 months before and then lets have a headlong rush at it" type scenario.

How many Unionists politicians' and parties have taken part in recent public forums North & South discussing a "United Ireland"?

When last did the North-South bodies convene?

When was there last a sitting of all parties at Stormont?

 

[Two Pour Bore]

You prepare by gathering information, making plans and models. Like how many people from the north commute to the south on a daily basis, how many do so in the opposite direction. Where would the biggest benefit be gained from improved infrastructure? What are the primary concerns that people on either side of the border would have if there was reunification? What type of local, provincial(?), national government be best and most acceptable? What impact would it likely have on employment, exchequer, customs and excise, and a myriad of other issues. ALL of which need to be discussed in advance. We don't want another Brexit type of vote where one side or another are hoodwinked into voting for or against something by billboards and scaremongering. Actual factual information is required and that will take likely some years to get and model and plan for the best post reunification scenario should it come about.

The only people who want to rush this seem to be people who want it to fail. It should be done in such a way taht all the facts and figures (as best we can glean them) pro and con will be available to voters, rather than hype and disinformation. And if it is to be a NO then let it be with as much of the information as possible, rather than a "I don't want to hear about it until 6 months before and then lets have a headlong rush at it" type scenario.

Except this is a hot button political issue.

I don't want to offer the north an "alternative." I don't want to prepare for some situation that might never happen. I don't want to be saying, "We're ready and waiting for you." Because as you've steadfastly refused to respond to it's not our choice. It's not even a significant issue at the moment.

There are some trying to make it into an issue and I'm sure they could run on an international platform in various elections if they were really dedicated to it, but even they're not that stupid. A United Ireland is hypothetical. We gave up our claims to such decades ago. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it.

I'll wait from some signs from my northern siblings that are beyond political maneuvring in national elections before I start redrawing borders on an international level. And certainly so before I, someone in Cork, decides to tell someone in the six counties what we have to offer like a fucking telemarketer.