Sex Education for Primary school....

[Ghoti]

The same guys who cry out in an offended manner " not all men" sure seem to think it's all men when it comes to trans girls...

Are you sure those aren't imaginary guys?

 

[Matlock]

Do you think trans women are women? Why would you treat them "differently in a limited way" if you do?

Because I would have to balance their right to be treated in accordance with their preferred gender with the concerns of other teens at sharing a shower with a trans woman. That's what competing rights means.

It is a very limited situation. A tiny part of the experience of any trans person. Yet it is an obsession of anyone who wants to take issue with teans people.

 

[Matlock]

Are you sure those aren't imaginary guys?

No cognitive dissonance there.

If it's not all men, then why is the assumption that it's all trans girls?

Apparently a trans woman sharing a bathroom with a cis woman is massively dangerous. What's the danger? The fact that they (may) have a penis. Why is it that that is so dangerous when attached to a trans woman, but not when attached to a cis man?

Are trans women more likely to assault a cis women than cis men are? I think we both know the answer...

 

[Ghoti]

Because I would have to balance their right to be treated in accordance with their preferred gender with the concerns of other teens at sharing a shower with a trans woman. That's what competing rights means.

It is a very limited situation. A tiny part of the experience of any trans person. Yet it is an obsession of anyone who wants to take issue with teans people.

I get that. But it's still fence sitting. You either believe trans women are women or you don't. Personally, I don't, but I'm 100% for accommodating them in all aspects of life and I think it's a good thing to use someone's preferred pronouns. In my teens, I thought I might be trans.

So should trans women be allowed to use women's bathrooms? I think they should.

 

[Ghoti]

No cognitive dissonance there.

If it's not all men, then why is the assumption that it's all trans girls?

Apparently a trans woman sharing a bathroom with a cis woman is massively dangerous. What's the danger? The fact that they (may) have a penis. Why is it that that is so dangerous when attached to a trans woman, but not when attached to a cis man?

Are trans women more likely to assault a cis women than cis men are? I think we both know the answer...

I think trans women should be allowed to use women's bathrooms, though. The idea that bathrooms are some special perv dimension where all sorts of awfulness can happen is ludicrous.

Someone with a penis can take it out anywhere.

 

[Matlock]

I get that. But it's still fence sitting. You either believe trans women are women or you don't. Personally, I don't, but I'm 100% for accommodating them in all aspects of life and I think it's a good thing to use someone's preferred pronouns. In my teens, I thought Imight be trans.

So should trans women be allowed to use women's bathrooms? I think they should.

It isn't though. All rights are subject to limitations. No rights are absolute.

It seems to only be in relation to trans rights that any grey area is seen as a bad thing.

 

[Matlock]

I think trans women should be allowed to use women's bathrooms, though. The idea that bathrooms are some special perv dimension where all sorts of awfulness can happen is ludicrous.

Someone with a penis can take it out anywhere.

100%.

But the discussion gets bogged (forgive the pun!) here all the time.

The entire trans experience is boiled down to "what bathroom should they use" and "what about sports"

We can easily fix the bathroom issue. Most women I know don't give a fuck about shared bathroom spaces. We can have separate cubicles for people who, for whatever reason, don't want to share a bathroom.

On a pure logistical basis, it would make matches, gigs etc so much easier. Anytime I am in Croke Park, I can't go for a wee for the entire time because the queues are too long and i am not willing to miss game time. I would be happy to share a bathroom with 100 mullockers from Tipperary and actually see the match, rather than queue for half an hour. I would guess that 90% of the women who go to matches would feel the same!

 

[Ghoti]

It isn't though. All rights are subject to limitations. No rights are absolute.

It seems to only be in relation to trans rights that any grey area is seen as a bad thing.

100%.

But the discussion gets bogged (forgive the pun!) here all the time.

The entire trans experience is boiled down to "what bathroom should they use" and "what about sports"

We can easily fix the bathroom issue. Most women I know don't give a fuck about shared bathroom spaces. We can have separate cubicles for people who, for whatever reason, don't want to share a bathroom.

On a pure logistical basis, it would make matches, gigs etc so much easier. Anytime I am in Croke Park, I can't go for a wee for the entire time because the queues are too long and i am not willing to miss game time. I would be happy to share a bathroom with 100 mullockers from Tipperary and actually see the match, rather than queue for half an hour. I would guess that 90% of the women who go to matches would feel the same!

I think I'm coming around to the competing rights dynamic, but I just sense a certain level of bad faith from people who say trans women/trans men are women/men.

I don't think they'd be happy to let their daughters (let's face it, it's going to be their daughters) shower with girls who have penises.

I know it's a complex issue, but I think those people have more in common with the aH wOn'T uSe No StInKiN pRoNoUnS crowd than they think.

 

[Matlock]

I think I'm coming around to the competing rights dynamic, but I just sense a certain level of bad faith from people who say trans women/trans men are women/men.

I don't think they'd be happy to let their daughters (let's face it, it's going to be their daughters) shower with girls who have penises.

I know it's a complex issue, but I think those people have more in common with the aH wOn'T uSe No StInKiN pRoNoUnS crowd than they think.

I would agree with that. I think dogma on either side of the debate helps no one.

It reminds me a bit of an interview I saw with Norman Schwarzkopf years ago. He was anti gays in the military, which on the face of it seemed like a terrible viewpoint. As he spoke about it though, his argument was that he had no personal issue with gay people or with gay soldiers, but lots of soldiers were homophobic as fuck. So if out gay men were in a unit with homophobes, they would not be safe. He didn't believe that their follow soldiers would protect them to the same level, or that they might actively try to do them harm. I am not sure I agreed with him 100% (but he was a general and I have never been in the army so...) but I thought it was a good example of how our rights sometimes have to be limited until society catches up, or for our own safety, or because our right impacts the rights of another.

 

[Ghoti]

I would agree with that. I think dogma on either side of the debate helps no one.

It reminds me a bit of an interview I saw with Norman Schwarzkopf years ago. He was anti gays in the military, which on the face of it seemed like a terrible viewpoint. As he spoke about it though, his argument was that he had no personal issue with gay people or with gay soldiers, but lots of soldiers were homophobic as fuck. So if out gay men were in a unit with homophobes, they would not be safe. He didn't believe that their follow soldiers would protect them to the same level, or that they might actively try to do them harm. I am not sure I agreed with him 100% (but he was a general and I have never been in the army so...) but I thought it was a good example of how our rights sometimes have to be limited until society catches up, or for our own safety, or because our right impacts the rights of another.

Hmmm. Interesting, yeah. It's not absolutist. I never really think about things like this in terms of societal balance.