Jesus lads, 'tis looking like BREXIT!

[Stacky]

The Tories are happy to have Starmer as the leader of Labour as he is undermining the opposition from within. FFS even a dead cat leading the Labour Party should have a much bigger lead on Borris et al at this stage

Really?

Tories even joined Labour to vote in the leadership election to ensure that Corbyn got elected leader as they knew that he was rubbish and they were right.

 

[TheOutdoorThreadmill]

Yes, but their bad decisions affect us all and we definitely did not vote for them

Brexit and Northern Ireland etc. 800 years of history etc.

And Boris is still making them and Kier sits on his hands.

 

[Stacky]

And Boris is still making them and Kier sits on his hands.

Democracy is a bugger at times............

 

[TheOutdoorThreadmill]

Democracy is a bugger at times............

So you think think he shouldn't have proposed a motion of no confidence in Boris after nearly half his MPs have none in him? Even if he lost, he could rat out the MPs that flip flopped

 

[How bad boy]

Agree with Corbyn or not - he was systematically taken out by the press, the tories and by his own team.

The game is politics - this is a bit like the housing conversation. You are right in the reasons why housing is difficult but we elect politicans to deal with it. Starmer is as I said, objectively infinitely better than Boris, but the game is politics and he is woeful at it.

The game is competently running the country.

It's worth keeping that in mind.

Yeah, Corbyn was a terrible politician, he couldn't even win over his own MPs.

No they want a government to govern in their best interests.

Whether it is here by fixing housing, hospital waiting lists, trollies etc or in England where they want transport, jobs and to be reassured that their NHS is not about to be sold off and Brexit is the sunlit uplands they were promised.

When you go to the polls people should vote for Starmer but they have voted for Boris.

That is because it is about who they perceive will lead them and give them what they want.

They voted for Boris over Corbyn, not Starmer.

I really think the polls are underestimating Starmer's support.

Once it gets to election time and you have to put a tick in the box to say who you actually want running the country for the next 5 years, the boring bureaucrat who will do a good job or the blustering yahoo who doesn't give a fuck, I'm pretty certain I know which way people will go.

Johnson has a -45% approval rating.

You just need someone who won't cock it up, this is an open goal electorally. Have someone who people will hold their noses and vote for. Corbyn was not that sort of politician.

He might be liked personally, but Johnson is now a massive electoral liability.


To be honest, what Labour really need right now is a Tony Blair but, well...

 

[How bad boy]

So you think think he shouldn't have proposed a motion of no confidence in Boris after nearly half his MPs have none in him? Even if he lost, he could rat out the MPs that flip flopped

That's a tricky one.

The Tories know that should an election happen now, they're fucked. So there is a really good chance that the party will close ranks and vote down a no confidence motion.

That then strengthens Boris's position and makes labour look week, they took a shot and missed.

Personally, I'd do it but I can see why Starmer is holding off. If the Tory party isn't willing to defenestrate their leader, they'll almost certainly not want to do the same to themselves.

 

[PROCNA2018]

The game is competently running the country.

It's worth keeping that in mind.

Yeah, Corbyn was a terrible politician, he couldn't even win over his own MPs.

They voted for Boris over Corbyn, not Starmer.

I really think the polls are underestimating Starmer's support.

Once it gets to election time and you have to put a tick in the box to say who you actually want running the country for the next 5 years, the boring bureaucrat who will do a good job or the blustering yahoo who doesn't give a fuck, I'm pretty certain I know which way people will go.

Johnson has a -45% approval rating.

You just need someone who won't cock it up, this is an open goal electorally. Have someone who people will hold their noses and vote for. Corbyn was not that sort of politician.

He might be liked personally, but Johnson is now a massive electoral liability.


To be honest, what Labour really need right now is a Tony Blair but, well...

Corbyn was a good politician - his politics were just unacceptable in Brexit Britain and the papers ensured he was labelled something he very definitely isn't to ensure he didn't get in. Add to that that there were senior Blairites in Labour who were undermining him, he didn't stand a chance.

And when I mention Blairites it's not to take a side. It is again the reality of party internal politics.

I'm pretty certain who you would vote for, I would vote for and certainly who Stacky would vote for - for all the right reasons ..............watch what will happen though...............depending on who the leaders are heading into the next election.

If it was an open goal electorally he would be 20+ points ahead and he isn't.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying except for how politics works.

If Boris is pushed - if the 22 committee change the rules and after the bye-elections he loses both and the EU as seems likely today have taken him to the ECJ on the protocol bill, Rwanda, partygate ongoing etc etc.............Starmer's lead will disappear. If we are all right - and people should vote for the best man for the job, boring or not, that lead disappearing should not happen. But it is precisely because Starmer does NOT have a 20+ lead on Boris and why - that he will lose his lead on the next tory leader.

I am not saying Labour won't win the next GE in England but I am saying where they stand a good chance if Boris hangs on - they will have much less chance if he goes. Boris is Starmer's biggest electoral asset.

Given the tory disaster after disaster, the electoral open goal is there, I don't think Starmer will take the shot. I think they missed a trick with Starmer - Nandy, Rayner or maybe even Burnam (sp) would have been a better option.

 

[How bad boy]

Corbyn was a good politician - his politics were just unacceptable in Brexit Britain and the papers ensured he was labelled something he very definitely isn't to ensure he didn't get in. Add to that that there were senior Blairites in Labour who were undermining him, he didn't stand a chance.

And when I mention Blairites it's not to take a side. It is again the reality of party internal politics.

I'm pretty certain who you would vote for, I would vote for and certainly who Stacky would vote for - for all the right reasons ..............watch what will happen though...............depending on who the leaders are heading into the next election.

If it was an open goal electorally he would be 20+ points ahead and he isn't.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying except for how politics works.

If Boris is pushed - if the 22 committee change the rules and after the bye-elections he loses both and the EU as seems likely today have taken him to the ECJ on the protocol bill, Rwanda, partygate ongoing etc etc.............Starmer's lead will disappear. If we are all right - and people should vote for the best man for the job, boring or not, that lead disappearing should not happen. But it is precisely because Starmer does NOT have a 20+ lead on Boris and why - that he will lose his lead on the next tory leader.

I am not saying Labour won't win the next GE in England but I am saying where they stand a good chance if Boris hangs on - they will have much less chance if he goes. Boris is Starmer's biggest electoral asset.

Given the tory disaster after disaster, the electoral open goal is there, I don't think Starmer will take the shot. I think they missed a trick with Starmer - Nandy, Rayner or maybe even Burnam (sp) would have been a better option.

I've voted Lib Dem in every election since I moved to the UK almost 20 years ago.

I voted Labour in the recent local elections, precisely because I like Starmer and what he stands for.
In fact, for <reasons>, my postal ballot was ruined. So I went to the trouble of sorting out a replacement, just so I could vote Labour.

I spent a very long time thinking about whether or not I would vote for Corbyn's Labour party in the last election and couldn't bring myself to do so.

There are a lot of people that are in a politically similar position. Basically, there's a massive political centre ground between the left of the Labour party and the ERG types in the Tory party.

The name of the game is to get moderate tories, lib dems and undecided voters to come to labour.

Corbyn was shit at doing that.

By being completely inoffensive, in the face of Johnson's pile of dead cats, Starmer actually looks pretty attractive to that centrist vote.

The next Tory leader will have a pile of dead cats to deal with too.


I'm not saying Starmer is an amazing leader, he really doesn't inspire much, I have no idea what he stands for, nor what his policies are.

But he's clearly a decent human being and an actual grown up. It's hard to understate how attractive that is in the current shitshow for those in the middle.
I do actually agree Andy Burnham would probably be a better leader. Rayner probably not, she's quite divisive.

 

[TheOutdoorThreadmill]

Corbyn was a good politician - his politics were just unacceptable in Brexit Britain and the papers ensured he was labelled something he very definitely isn't to ensure he didn't get in. Add to that that there were senior Blairites in Labour who were undermining him, he didn't stand a chance.

And when I mention Blairites it's not to take a side. It is again the reality of party internal politics.

Not just Brexit Britain. He wanted to return Labour to Kinnock's labour, which as history as shown was a disaster for the party and wasn't a bit media savvy. Blair was cute, cosied up to Murdoch, and soften their core values and got himself elected.
Good politicians realise the importance of the media (rightly or wrongly) Corbyn still stuck in Kinnock's war with Thatcher never grasped this.

 

[Stacky]

I've voted Lib Dem in every election since I moved to the UK almost 20 years ago.

I voted Labour in the recent local elections, precisely because I like Starmer and what he stands for.
In fact, for <reasons>, my postal ballot was ruined. So I went to the trouble of sorting out a replacement, just so I could vote Labour.

I spent a very long time thinking about whether or not I would vote for Corbyn's Labour party in the last election and couldn't bring myself to do so.

There are a lot of people that are in a politically similar position. Basically, there's a massive political centre ground between the left of the Labour party and the ERG types in the Tory party.

The name of the game is to get moderate tories, lib dems and undecided voters to come to labour.

Corbyn was shit at doing that.

By being completely inoffensive, in the face of Johnson's pile of dead cats, Starmer actually looks pretty attractive to that centrist vote.

The next Tory leader will have a pile of dead cats to deal with too.


I'm not saying Starmer is an amazing leader, he really doesn't inspire much, I have no idea what he stands for, nor what his policies are.

But he's clearly a decent human being and an actual grown up. It's hard to understate how attractive that is in the current shitshow for those in the middle.
I do actually agree Andy Burnham would probably be a better leader. Rayner probably not, she's quite divisive.

Andy Burnham would never get the Home Counties wavering Tory voter to switch to Labour. He would do well in London but elsewhere he would be weak.

That and the press would destroy him like they did with Corbyn (Corbyn actually undermined himself also by being just plain daft at times when it mattered on Brexit).

Yvette Cooper also impresses and the Labour front bench has some smart young M.P.'s