Cork Footballers

[DougMM]

Realistically Dublin will want to put this game to bed early and will chase goals early. Look at game vs Kildare as example. Keeping it tight for first quarter is vital if we have any chance.

I’d be seriously nervous of our kickouts and the full press Dublin will put on us forcing us long. I think we won 50% of our long kick outs vs Limerick? Dublin will target us here I think. I said earlier I’d expect Hayes to start for the size he brings, Paul Walsh and O Hanlon also options too.
The current half forward line are all a bit too similar so wouldn’t be surprised if we saw two changes here. The Dubs half back line from the Leinster Final was McCarthy Howard Small. I think we need size here

Shanley on Con
Maguire on Kilkenny
Martin
KOD MS SP
SM
MT RM JC
IM COC
PW JOR BH
SS BH

Toss up between JOR and McSweeney but feel McSweeney can take the ball down blind alleys at times

I Don’t expect PW to start based on the red card the last day so perhaps KOH comes in

Having been to the last few games I don’t think the full forward line of O Mahony / Sherlock / Hurley works well as a unit and someone has to give..3 into 2 spots the way I’m looking at it

Meehan for me is a difficult one as he’s such an important player to us but has had a bad injury. I think he will want to play if he’s any way fit so wouldn’t be surprised to see him come into the side

Great post. Agree on setting up defensively, particularly on Dublin’s kick-outs.

On our kick-outs, I think we’ll be in big trouble if we start hitting 50-50 high balls on top of the Dublin midfield. Dublin’s biggest strength is their kick-out press and they’ve cleaned out teams with better midfields than Cork.

We need Dublin to play on our terms and not vice versa. We’ve generally done well when we’ve been able to win the short kick-outs, so unless Dublin are willing to commit 11/12 players into the Cork half, we should be going short all game. Bring 12 Cork players into the Cork half if needs be. If the Dublin players are willing to follow them back, then there should be plenty of space in the Dublin half-back/midfield line for kick-outs, and we might be able to find mismatches with Hayes or O’Callaghan having plenty of space in front of them. We should be trying to penalize Dublin with goals, when they get too aggressive on their kick-out press.

If we get the kick-outs right, then I genuinely think we have a chance of an upset. We were only a point behind Kerry with 20 minutes left in the Munster semi-final, despite not having any real kick-out strategy.

 

[Shabby]

Great post. Agree on setting up defensively, particularly on Dublin’s kick-outs.

On our kick-outs, I think we’ll be in big trouble if we start hitting 50-50 high balls on top of the Dublin midfield. Dublin’s biggest strength is their kick-out press and they’ve cleaned out teams with better midfields than Cork.

We need Dublin to play on our terms and not vice versa. We’ve generally done well when we’ve been able to win the short kick-outs, so unless Dublin are willing to commit 11/12 players into the Cork half, we should be going short all game. Bring 12 Cork players into the Cork half if needs be. If the Dublin players are willing to follow them back, then there should be plenty of space in the Dublin half-back/midfield line for kick-outs, and we might be able to find mismatches with Hayes or O’Callaghan having plenty of space in front of them. We should be trying to penalize Dublin with goals, when they get too aggressive on their kick-out press.

If we get the kick-outs right, then I genuinely think we have a chance of an upset. We were only a point behind Kerry with 20 minutes left in the Munster semi-final, despite not having any real kick-out strategy.

I agree securing your own kickout in any way possible gives you a chance but it’s a bit too simplistic to think bringing 12 men back into our own half for kickouts and running the ball up the pitch is sustainable because it’s not. Also we will end up turned over more in our own half to costly effect as we get tired and Dublin press harder.

Variation is the key. Against Kerry we went long in 50/50 fashion way too much. That’s the other side of the coin. We didn’t secure any possession as such. We need to secure short ball a lot but kick over the press when the chance arises to keep Dublin honest and try be direct as possible.

I’m realistic here. I think a defeat in similar fashion to the Kerry game wouldn’t be damaging for the growth of this team and at this moment in time that would be a decent outcome. We just aren’t on their level currently. No shame in that.

 

[DougMM]

I agree securing your own kickout in any way possible gives you a chance but it’s a bit too simplistic to think bringing 12 men back into our own half for kickouts and running the ball up the pitch is sustainable because it’s not. Also we will end up turned over more in our own half to costly effect as we get tired and Dublin press harder.

Variation is the key. Against Kerry we went long in 50/50 fashion way too much. That’s the other side of the coin. We didn’t secure any possession as such. We need to secure short ball a lot but kick over the press when the chance arises to keep Dublin honest and try be direct as possible.

I’m realistic here. I think a defeat in similar fashion to the Kerry game wouldn’t be damaging for the growth of this team and at this moment in time that would be a decent outcome. We just aren’t on their level currently. No shame in that.

Dublin, during their peak, and Kilcoo during the club championship, survived almost exclusively on short kick-outs. Kilcoo went short with over 90% of their kick-outs against St. Finbarrs and looked the fitter team in extra time. Dublin’s All Ireland final win over Tyrone in 2018 saw them go short on 75% of their kick-outs, with only one Dublin kick-out going past their 65 meter-line. I’m not saying you have to commit 12 players into your own half to secure every kick-out, but it’s about taking the initiative and having the numerical advantage. Having more players back for the short kick-outs also means less work is required from individual players, while working the ball out.

If you’re using the full width of the pitch (i.e. two backs on the touchlines as viable options), with five players in the full-back line, it’s almost impossible for the opposition to compete for possession with the zonal press, even with four opposition forwards committed into the full-back line. If the forwards are forced to cover the full width of the pitch, all you really need is to find one mismatch in speed (i.e. Dean Rock potentially against Sean Powter), with a decent short pass from your keeper into space, and you’re guaranteed possession.

Even with 11/12 players committed to the opposition half, it can be difficult to shut down the short kick-outs. Cork committed 11 players into the Limerick half for a lot of the kick-outs and still couldn’t get close to stopping the short one. More importantly though, look at the amount of space and options the short kickout created for Limerick below. Limerick ended up scoring 1-9 off their own kick-out and it was one of the main reasons they were still in the game.

If opposition are forced to push up with man-on-man marking on opposition kick-outs, then you can take the initiative. This is one of the times you can bring 12 players into your own half to create space for your forward line and find miss-matches. It makes little sense to use an orthodox shape to counter man-on-man marking.

I think you might be overestimating how many potential errors arise from short kick-outs when fatigue kicks in. Cork didn’t score a single point off Limerick’s kick-outs, despite them going short on 23 of their 28 kick-outs, and looking visibly tired at the end of the game.

Also I’m not sure there’s any real sense in hitting X amount of kick-outs long for the sole purpose of variation. By all means, if Dublin have committed 11/12 players into the opposition half, then it makes sense to try and beat the press as you’ve said. But that’s kicking because you’re reacting to real-time shapes, not mixing it up for the sake of mixing it up. I think Martin is probably the best goal-keeper we have available, but we really need to start finding keepers who are capable of waiting until the last second, and who have a repertoire of kick-out types.

 

[Horse of Gold]

I agree securing your own kickout in any way possible gives you a chance but it’s a bit too simplistic to think bringing 12 men back into our own half for kickouts and running the ball up the pitch is sustainable because it’s not. Also we will end up turned over more in our own half to costly effect as we get tired and Dublin press harder.

Variation is the key. Against Kerry we went long in 50/50 fashion way too much. That’s the other side of the coin. We didn’t secure any possession as such. We need to secure short ball a lot but kick over the press when the chance arises to keep Dublin honest and try be direct as possible.

I’m realistic here. I think a defeat in similar fashion to the Kerry game wouldn’t be damaging for the growth of this team and at this moment in time that would be a decent outcome. We just aren’t on their level currently. No shame in that.

I think that last paragraph is exactly right. I said at the start of the year that a good year for Cork this year would be retaining D2 status and getting into Sam Maguire given the extent of injuries/ player turnover we had at the start of the year.

Nobody is giving us a hope on Sat Night, I think bookies have it -12 points as the handicap. I’m not saying we will win but the team is bound to have built up some level of confidence over the last few victories. Very much in bonus territory for me

 

[Shabby]

I think that last paragraph is exactly right. I said at the start of the year that a good year for Cork this year would be retaining D2 status and getting into Sam Maguire given the extent of injuries/ player turnover we had at the start of the year.

Nobody is giving us a hope on Sat Night, I think bookies have it -12 points as the handicap. I’m not saying we will win but the team is bound to have built up some level of confidence over the last few victories. Very much in bonus territory for me

Anyone who thinks otherwise is fairly deluded IMO. We’ve beaten Down, Offaly, Louth and Limerick this year. On Saturday we play Dublin. Our level is a bit above the teams we beat clearly and I think we will see on Saturday we are a nice bit off the likes of Dublin but of course we are.

Important that we don’t get a real hockeying because these are young guys with plenty of potential trying to build a positive mindset with Cork. I think we can do something similar to the Kerry game. We executed the general game plan that day really well but ran out of steam and a very poor kickout plan was a real cause of our downfall. The floodgates eventually opened. Improve the kickout and we can make this respectable. Dublin can be unforgiving though. Just ask Kildare.

 

[junior footballer]

I would hope we can do a job like the first 50 minutes Vs Kerry but for longer. - we are certainly fitter and stronger and though not his strong point Martin has a better kickout then Dylan foley…..as well as that and if it’s tight, Dublin won’t be bringing on a David Moran, they have a decent bench but I would argue not as strong as Kerry’s.
All this is presupposed that we are 100% on it physically, mentally and tactically from the start.
I can’t see us winning obviously but I can see us giving it a rattle, we have seen them can Kildare that they will destroy teams if given the chance.
I hope for all concerned that Saturday is a good night for cork football and they have something tangible to work on for 2023 or …….the 9th of July!!

 

[RightHalfBack]

I would hope we can do a job like the first 50 minutes Vs Kerry but for longer. - we are certainly fitter and stronger and though not his strong point Martin has a better kickout then Dylan foley…..as well as that and if it’s tight, Dublin won’t be bringing on a David Moran, they have a decent bench but I would argue not as strong as Kerry’s.
All this is presupposed that we are 100% on it physically, mentally and tactically from the start.
I can’t see us winning obviously but I can see us giving it a rattle, we have seen them can Kildare that they will destroy teams if given the chance.
I hope for all concerned that Saturday is a good night for cork football and they have something tangible to work on for 2023 or …….the 9th of July!!

spot on JF - I think if Kerry didn't bring on Moran for the last 20 mins we would have stayed closer to them for much longer without admittedly ever threatening to win the game but that in itself would have been a massive boost to the whole setup. Cleary strikes me as a very practical calm type of individual who doesn't talk bullshit so I think we are in a much better place than we were v Kerry ( add in Hayes and possibly Meehan to the mix and the curve goes even further up ) and the players will show that again on Sat. I just hope Cleary gives them the licence to go out and play a bit - as a former forward himself I think he will but it will need to be a very disciplined game plan. The key to us staying competitive for as long as possible will be winning the restarts as many posters have said but also moving the ball forward at speed when we win it. No point in having Hurley, Sherlock and O' Mahony inside if they are being starved of ball so I think the team selection will give a strong hint at the way Cleary will want them to play. If O' Mahony starts I think we will see them have a right lash off it, if he doesn't it will be more a of damage limitation approach

 

[Lee Bushwacker]

Cork are going to get well Dubbed, unfortunately!

 

[bluesball]

No well will flush the Jacks on Saturday

 

[Killyoursons]

Dublin, during their peak, and Kilcoo during the club championship, survived almost exclusively on short kick-outs. Kilcoo went short with over 90% of their kick-outs against St. Finbarrs and looked the fitter team in extra time. Dublin’s All Ireland final win over Tyrone in 2018 saw them go short on 75% of their kick-outs, with only one Dublin kick-out going past their 65 meter-line. I’m not saying you have to commit 12 players into your own half to secure every kick-out, but it’s about taking the initiative and having the numerical advantage. Having more players back for the short kick-outs also means less work is required from individual players, while working the ball out.

If you’re using the full width of the pitch (i.e. two backs on the touchlines as viable options), with five players in the full-back line, it’s almost impossible for the opposition to compete for possession with the zonal press, even with four opposition forwards committed into the full-back line. If the forwards are forced to cover the full width of the pitch, all you really need is to find one mismatch in speed (i.e. Dean Rock potentially against Sean Powter), with a decent short pass from your keeper into space, and you’re guaranteed possession.

Even with 11/12 players committed to the opposition half, it can be difficult to shut down the short kick-outs. Cork committed 11 players into the Limerick half for a lot of the kick-outs and still couldn’t get close to stopping the short one. More importantly though, look at the amount of space and options the short kickout created for Limerick below. Limerick ended up scoring 1-9 off their own kick-out and it was one of the main reasons they were still in the game.

If opposition are forced to push up with man-on-man marking on opposition kick-outs, then you can take the initiative. This is one of the times you can bring 12 players into your own half to create space for your forward line and find miss-matches. It makes little sense to use an orthodox shape to counter man-on-man marking.

I think you might be overestimating how many potential errors arise from short kick-outs when fatigue kicks in. Cork didn’t score a single point off Limerick’s kick-outs, despite them going short on 23 of their 28 kick-outs, and looking visibly tired at the end of the game.

Also I’m not sure there’s any real sense in hitting X amount of kick-outs long for the sole purpose of variation. By all means, if Dublin have committed 11/12 players into the opposition half, then it makes sense to try and beat the press as you’ve said. But that’s kicking because you’re reacting to real-time shapes, not mixing it up for the sake of mixing it up. I think Martin is probably the best goal-keeper we have available, but we really need to start finding keepers who are capable of waiting until the last second, and who have a repertoire of kick-out types.

That's a very good post, but I wonder do some of those comparisons hold. For instance, I'm open to correction on this, but I don't recall Tyrone pressing up hard on Dublin's kick-outs in that match (or at least not for a sustained period), so the Dubs were able to get up the pitch without expending much energy. I expect that they will press very hard against Cork on Saturday, particularly since if they can force a couple of early turn-overs that will increase pressure on Cork to go long.

Furthermore, in 2018 the Dubs were probably better-conditioned and more able to hold and work possession than any other team, plus they were able to break with incredible speed when space opened up for them to attack. I don't think the current Cork team have shown anything like that ability to break at speed - in particular, the lack of players who can kick accurate long passes means it will be a lot harder for them to transfer the ball quickly from their own 45 into their FF line.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you about what approach Cork should take on their own kick-outs, just noting that given the relative strengths and weaknesses of the teams, a strategy which worked in other circumstances might not be the best fit for Cork against these opponents. And I definitely agree with you that it is crucial that Cork find a keeper who can read the play in front of him and adjust at the last second (while still kicking accurately).