Fundraiser for Statue Of Michael Collins in Patrick’s Street

[SoundMan]

No point in sending anyone then.
Anyone with any cop on to the scenario at the time knew that was all they were going to get.
Dev knew it for one and he wasn't alone
Collins knew it as well but also knew his war in Dublin was under serious pressure.

And that's the point. If anything was to be had from the negotiations it would have taken a keen negotiating mind. Lloyd George had described dealing with Dev as like trying to pick up quicksilver with a fork. Dev knew there was likely to be some hard bargaining by the british and a 32 county republic was very unlikely to be acceded to - so rather than go himself and come back with a partial prize, he sent Collins over as a fall guy knowing it would be highly unlikely that anyone would come back with what Dev wanted.

Collins knew he wasn't the best man for that job. But he was sent, by a cabinet controlled by Dev. And so he did his duty.

As for his war being "under serious pressure" his war was to make Ireland ungovernable by the british, not to expel the british. Thanks to public opinion and british stupidity his campaign in dublin was doing what it set out to do.

Though Dev's ego trying to insist on large scale engagements would have ground it all to a halt had he gotten his way. Stupid enterprises like burning the Customs House in late May 1921, just weeks before the Truce, where over 100 of the Dublin brigade got lifted.

 

[flyingspud]

If you're talking about Collins at BnB he was drunk.

Anyone with military training knows that the first thing you try to do in an ambush situation is get out of it if possible because the enemy will have carefully chosen the terrain to provide best chance of enemy success. Dalton allegedly told the driver to drive on, while Collins countermanded it to say they'd fight.

Collins's party had more men and an armoured car with a heavy machine-gun on board. Even though they shouldn't have stayed with their fire power they'd have been grand until the machine gun stopped firing - and of course a member of the crew just days later changed sides and robbed the armoured car (Slievenamon) which was subsequently used by the IRA in attacks on Free State forces in West Cork .

Collins didn't run into the open, he had been returning fire and then moved his position to what he thought would be better vantage point from which to return fire.

Collins was certainly brave and far from stupid. But on the day he'd taken too much drink and his judgement was impaired as a result. It happens with pints.

Sounds pretty fuckin stupid going into bandit country bristling with enemies after a skin full.

 

[TheEarlofPearl]

View attachment 24755
Earl saying other posters had loads of PROC names.

Couldn't mark that neck with a blow-torch - solid brass!

First thing Monday morning and Soundy is still in a vice like grip. I’d say my user names keeps you awake at night

 

[SoundMan]

Sounds pretty fuckin stupid going into bandit country bristling with enemies after a skin full.

He went into "bandit country" with an eye to meeting up with enemies to talk of possibilities of peace. Couldn't exactly do that up in Dublin, or even in Cork City which had been cleared of enemies at that stage.

He went with an armoured car and a detachment of troops and as it happened had the enemy at the engagement pretty well outgunned - especially had the machine gun not "jammed". Travelling in an open touring car probably wasn't the wisest move at the time but he wanted/needed to meet with and talk with his former comrades now enemies, or in O'Donnoghue's case "neutral" but pro-IRA.

Relaxing his guard in his home village and local was perhaps understandable. Buying rounds for the crowd was the kind of thing he did. Imbibing, and then over-imbibing himself, was reckless certainly. But that's the nature of taking a pint, it can lower your inhibitions about taking another one, and it certainly didn't make him a stupid person.

 

[The High King]

And that's the point. If anything was to be had from the negotiations it would have taken a keen negotiating mind. Lloyd George had described dealing with Dev as like trying to pick up quicksilver with a fork. Dev knew there was likely to be some hard bargaining by the british and a 32 county republic was very unlikely to be acceded to - so rather than go himself and come back with a partial prize, he sent Collins over as a fall guy knowing it would be highly unlikely that anyone would come back with what Dev wanted.

Collins knew he wasn't the best man for that job. But he was sent, by a cabinet controlled by Dev. And so he did his duty.

As for his war being "under serious pressure" his war was to make Ireland ungovernable by the british, not to expel the british. Thanks to public opinion and british stupidity his campaign in dublin was doing what it set out to do.

Though Dev's ego trying to insist on large scale engagements would have ground it all to a halt had he gotten his way. Stupid enterprises like burning the Customs House in late May 1921, just weeks before the Truce, where over 100 of the Dublin brigade got lifted.

Keen negotiating mind my hole.
They could have got nothing more even if they had sent the most cunning man in Ireland m8.
Even Collins had an idea of this and by God he knew it once they had gone.
Once we accepted a ceasefire that was it and that was in Collins opinion.

 

[The High King]

He went into "bandit country" with an eye to meeting up with enemies to talk of possibilities of peace. Couldn't exactly do that up in Dublin, or even in Cork City which had been cleared of enemies at that stage.

He went with an armoured car and a detachment of troops and as it happened had the enemy at the engagement pretty well outgunned - especially had the machine gun not "jammed". Travelling in an open touring car probably wasn't the wisest move at the time but he wanted/needed to meet with and talk with his former comrades now enemies, or in O'Donnoghue's case "neutral" but pro-IRA.

Relaxing his guard in his home village and local was perhaps understandable. Buying rounds for the crowd was the kind of thing he did. Imbibing, and then over-imbibing himself, was reckless certainly. But that's the nature of taking a pint, it can lower your inhibitions about taking another one, and it certainly didn't make him a stupid person.

Yeah.
He got notions living in Dublin ordering mayhem while cycling around Dublin in a suit.

Meanwhile a proper war was being waged down here which he didn't really have a proper grip on the reality of and of which he had fuck all control of

 

[SoundMan]

Yeah.
He got notions living in Dublin ordering mayhem while cycling around Dublin in a suit.

Meanwhile a proper war was being waged down here which he didn't really have a proper grip on the reality of and of which he had fuck all control of

The "proper war being waged down here" wasn't a whole lot different than what had been going on around Dublin. Hit and run tactics being used throughout - unsurprising really given the overwhelming numbers, training, and war materiel they were facing against the brits.

 

[SoundMan]

Keen negotiating mind my hole.
They could have got nothing more even if they had sent the most cunning man in Ireland m8.
Even Collins had an idea of this and by God he knew it once they had gone.
Once we accepted a ceasefire that was it and that was in Collins opinion.

Think you're arguing against yourself here.

Collins knew ever before he went that he was the wrong man to be sent on such a mission. Dev's ego wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[daftbrush]

This tread is going off on a tangent.
Discussions on the war of independence seems to be taken over the topic.
The purpose of the thread is the erection of a giant statue of the man with a bicycle at the end of it.
A lot of issues such as planning permission
the amount raised
the spending of the money
the payment to the sculptor
the committee expenses
the registration of the fund for Revenue purposes
Arrangements for an audit
Publication of the accounts


There is is a lot there which needs to be addressed.

 

[daftbrush]

Why on earth would anyone here have the PPS number for members of that committee????
And even if they did, why would they leave themselves open to all kinds of prosecutions by divulging such information to you??

Because there are laws in the country.
Law breakers are prosecuted to maintain order and law in society otherwise we would have chaos.
( I should add that sometimes laws are suspended in the case of murders carried out in the case of the greater cause for a united Ireland)