Fundraiser for Statue Of Michael Collins in Patrick’s Street

[flyingspud]

Terrible pity that the "far superior politician of his time" didn't go to London to negotiate a deal that he'd have been happy with, rather than sending Collins the soldier whose face up to that time was pretty much unknown to the british.

Far superior my eye! Dev was an egotistical clown, much like his FF descendant of today Micheal Martin. If only they hadn't put self-agrandisement ahead of what was best for this country.

I think self-preservation is far smarter than running into the open firing wildly during an ambush.
Brave, maybe. Stupid, definitely.

 

[Crankycorner]

Terrible pity that the "far superior politician of his time" didn't go to London to negotiate a deal that he'd have been happy with, rather than sending Collins the soldier whose face up to that time was pretty much unknown to the british.

Far superior my eye! Dev was an egotistical clown, much like his FF descendant of today Micheal Martin. If only they hadn't put self-agrandisement ahead of what was best for this country.

How was he to know that Collins wouldn’t do what his told? The Irish delegation had eaten too much of the food and drank too much of the whiskey the Brits gave them.

It was an error of judgement because Collins showed them and later he couldn’t be trusted. Had he lived our Democracy would have been under threat.

Too many learn their history from that god awful film.

 

[daftbrush]

No I would not object for my personal safety reasons. You quoted the Sage in his dealings with Johnathan o Brien. The kernal question the Sage asked was how was Conor Murphy able to contact the IRA. Johnathan replied to invite him to Cork headquarters for a meeting. Surely that it could have been answered by email and thus putting a whole book on hold. My feeling is that the Sage got cold feet and did not take up the invite . I think at this stage the thread should not be broadened but to concentrate on the kernal issue on whether a statue can be erected without planning permission.

 

[SoundMan]

I think self-preservation is far smarter than running into the open firing wildly during an ambush.
Brave, maybe. Stupid, definitely.

If you're talking about Collins at BnB he was drunk.

Anyone with military training knows that the first thing you try to do in an ambush situation is get out of it if possible because the enemy will have carefully chosen the terrain to provide best chance of enemy success. Dalton allegedly told the driver to drive on, while Collins countermanded it to say they'd fight.

Collins's party had more men and an armoured car with a heavy machine-gun on board. Even though they shouldn't have stayed with their fire power they'd have been grand until the machine gun stopped firing - and of course a member of the crew just days later changed sides and robbed the armoured car (Slievenamon) which was subsequently used by the IRA in attacks on Free State forces in West Cork .

Collins didn't run into the open, he had been returning fire and then moved his position to what he thought would be better vantage point from which to return fire.

Collins was certainly brave and far from stupid. But on the day he'd taken too much drink and his judgement was impaired as a result. It happens with pints.

 

[SoundMan]

How was he to know that Collins wouldn’t do what his told? The Irish delegation had eaten too much of the food and drank too much of the whiskey the Brits gave them.

It was an error of judgement because Collins showed them and later he couldn’t be trusted. Had he lived our Democracy would have been under threat.

Too many learn their history from that god awful film.

"Do what his (sic) told"???????

Collins, Griffith et al were Plenipotentiaries - meaning they travelled over with the power to make decisions on behalf of the Irish Government. They were members of the cabinet. And it had the safety net of needing to be ratified by the government.

Devalera f**ked up, and everybody except Dev knew it, in not going himself, and in sending Collins (of all people) to negotiate it.

 

[Caincoat and Scarf]

Revenue should keep a close eye on where this money goes

I presume the committee have regestered the fund with the Friendly Society and Charities Regulator.
If anyone has PPS numbers for members of the committee I might be able to do digging.

 

[SoundMan]

I presume the committee have regestered the fund with the Friendly Society and Charities Regulator.
If anyone has PPS numbers for members of the committee I might be able to do digging.

Why on earth would anyone here have the PPS number for members of that committee????
And even if they did, why would they leave themselves open to all kinds of prosecutions by divulging such information to you??

 

[Crankycorner]

"Do what his (sic) told"???????

Collins, Griffith et al were Plenipotentiaries - meaning they travelled over with the power to make decisions on behalf of the Irish Government. They were members of the cabinet. And it had the safety net of needing to be ratified by the government.

Devalera f**ked up, and everybody except Dev knew it, in not going himself, and in sending Collins (of all people) to negotiate it.

They were told to refer back to the Cabinet to approve before signing. They did not. They are traitors to Ireland and in particular the 6 counties.

 

[SoundMan]

They were told to refer back to the Cabinet to approve before signing. They did not. They are traitors to Ireland and in particular the 6 counties.

Do you understand what the import of Plenipotentiaries is? They were effectively given a free hand to decide themselves. That was given to them by the Cabinet.

They signed subject to ratification. Dev and others voted against it. Presumably had you and I been around at the time then we'd have voted against it too.

BUT the huge error was sending Collins in the first place.

 

[The High King]

Do you understand what the import of Plenipotentiaries is? They were effectively given a free hand to decide themselves. That was given to them by the Cabinet.

They signed subject to ratification. Dev and others voted against it. Presumably had you and I been around at the time then we'd have voted against it too.

BUT the huge error was sending Collins in the first place.

No point in sending anyone then.
Anyone with any cop on to the scenario at the time knew that was all they were going to get.
Dev knew it for one and he wasn't alone
Collins knew it as well but also knew his war in Dublin was under serious pressure.