The Gaelic Football Thread

[shez1987]

^what Jukka said.

The League would be the Championship now. Its the pathway to the knock out stages, like the regular season is the pathway to the playoffs in the NFL, NBA and AFL.

Having 6 out of 8 teams qualify From Div 1 would be too easy and dilute the achievement of making the knock outs.

There's still the potential down the line for one sided QFs, because there are 4 teams ahead of the rest. But at least we'd see some competitive fare beforehand.

 

[BettyDoesMallow]

^what Jukka said.

The League would be the Championship now. Its the pathway to the knock out stages, like the regular season is the pathway to the playoffs in the NFL, NBA and AFL.

Having 6 out of 8 teams qualify From Div 1 would be too easy and dilute the achievement of making the knock outs.

There's still the potential down the line for one sided QFs, because there are 4 teams ahead of the rest. But at least we'd see some competitive fare beforehand.

Yes but in these sports the 6th best team in the regular season never misses out on the postseason, which is essentially my point, to have 10 qualify for the postseason and not include the 6th best team doesn't make sense.

 

[Megelus]

You're reading it wrong though - the league IS the championship. So they haven't lost out on championship if they're not in top 5, they just haven't qualified for the quarters.

If you're in Division 1 and finished 6th then I'd argue you've had your shot at the best teams. I think 6/2/1/1 would be be a better split, but the principle is decent, similar to how the hurling works at present.

It will definitely need tweaking, but hard to know exactly what tweaking until it actually happens. I think a move back to the old Division 1 and 2 split into A and B would work better, with the top 7 in Division 1, while the Division 2 is basically the Tailten Cup where the winners can go into the Sam Maguire.

It's silly because in practise will reward some teams for losing. If Cork are in division 2 or 3 I would rather see them stay there and (almost) guarantee them a path to the knockout stages. Instead if they get promoted they're dead meat in Division 1.

Conversely if you're in a relegation spot, stay there, don't bother winning and you get an easier road to the knock out round next year.

I'd like to think personal pride would prevent such a scenario from playing out but these days people look for the optimal strategy and here that strategy disincentivises winning.

Also a note on the nfl, last year the final regular season game was thrown by a team who were incentivised to lose. Their decision affected what team made the playoffs from their division

 

[cooldude]

I see it differently. If Cork or any other team are in Div 2 or 3 there wouldn't be much point in having a shot at the big prize. They just wouldn't be good enough and most likely get walloped like they did this year in Killarney.
I believe this option B will give a few weaker teams a small chance of playing on the big stage. Probably no chance of beating a team from Division 2 in the qualifiers but still a big day for them and their supporters and they just might learn a thing or two for next year and will have home advantage too if I'm understanding it right.
I hope they tweak it a bit for the team that finishes 6th in Div 1 as that seems unfair.
6 and 7 will be relegated but they will have 7 chances to avoid that and will have failed. Now they must play in the lesser competition and hope to get promoted next year.

Those Provincial Chairmen crying over gate takings seem to be reading it wrong. They should study Colm O Rourke's explanation in last Sunday's S'Indo. They won't of course as these are the lads that decided on a show of hands vote to decide whether they should have a secret vote.

 

[shez1987]

Yes but in these sports the 6th best team in the regular season never misses out on the postseason, which is essentially my point, to have 10 qualify for the postseason and not include the 6th best team doesn't make sense.

It can happen. Washington made the NFL play-offs last year at 7-9 whilst Arizona missed out on 8-8. Seattle made the playoffs with a losing record in 2010 whilst two 10-6 teams missed out.

Not very often admittedly, and it's a kink where some divisions are stronger than others. But it works, as it gives more teams prolonged interest in the competition.

You are never going to have a perfectly fair system. But a structure where everyone has something to play for has to be better than what's there currently.

 

[BettyDoesMallow]

It's silly because in practise will reward some teams for losing. If Cork are in division 2 or 3 I would rather see them stay there and (almost) guarantee them a path to the knockout stages. Instead if they get promoted they're dead meat in Division 1.

Conversely if you're in a relegation spot, stay there, don't bother winning and you get an easier road to the knock out round next year.

I'd like to think personal pride would prevent such a scenario from playing out but these days people look for the optimal strategy and here that strategy disincentivises winning.

Also a note on the nfl, last year the final regular season game was thrown by a team who were incentivised to lose. Their decision affected what team made the playoffs from their division

True.
The optimum spot is 3rd in Division 2.
If a team was guaranteed top 3 in Div 2 with a game or two to spare you'd see them intentionally losing to try and finish 3rd as getting promoted to div 1 and trying to get top 5 there the following season would be a hell of a lot harder than just getting a top 3 spot in div 2.

Ditto teams in div 1 where top 5 in div 1 was out of reach would intentionally lose to try and get relegated to div 2.

Also interesting to see Kevin O Donovan suggest bonus points for provincial winners as that's more likely to benefit his div 2 rivals Galway and Roscommon than Cork, unless he thinks Kerry will treat the new Munster c'ship like the McGrath cup or maybe have bonus points for provincial runners up also

 

[cooldude]

If a team was guaranteed top 3 in Div 2 with a game or two to spare you'd see them intentionally losing to try and finish 3rd as getting promoted to div 1 and trying to get top 5 there the following season would be a hell of a lot harder than just getting a top 3 spot in div 2.


Hard to imagine that scenario as the teams they would lose to were above them in the table, and how could they possibly guess the results of the teams under them. That would be so risky that it's practically impossible IMHO.

 

[BettyDoesMallow]

It can happen. Washington made the NFL play-offs last year at 7-9 whilst Arizona missed out on 8-8. Seattle made the playoffs with a losing record in 2010 whilst two 10-6 teams missed out.

Not very often admittedly, and it's a kink where some divisions are stronger than others. But it works, as it gives more teams prolonged interest in the competition.

You are never going to have a perfectly fair system. But a structure where everyone has something to play for has to be better than what's there currently.

Yes, a few weaker teams got in but none of the top 10 teams lost out. The 10-6 teams were about 11th or 12th in the official rankings.

Again, top 6 teams generally do not miss out in postseasons with 10 or more postseason spots.

 

[BettyDoesMallow]

If a team was guaranteed top 3 in Div 2 with a game or two to spare you'd see them intentionally losing to try and finish 3rd as getting promoted to div 1 and trying to get top 5 there the following season would be a hell of a lot harder than just getting a top 3 spot in div 2.


Hard to imagine that scenario as the teams they would lose to were above them in the table, and how could they possibly guess the results of the teams under them. That would be so risky that it's practically impossible IMHO.

I don't see the risk?
If going into the final game a team were 3+ points ahead of 4th (or 2 points and an unassailable tie breaker criteria) they could lose their last game without risk of missing out on the c'ship. (or lose last 2 games if 5+ pts ahead or 4 ahead with tie-breaker secure)

 

[Megelus]

Yes, a few weaker teams got in but none of the top 10 teams lost out. The 10-6 teams were about 11th or 12th in the official rankings.

Again, top 6 teams generally do not miss out in postseasons with 10 or more postseason spots.

Fun trivia, until last year it was theoretically possible (though incredibly unlikely and has never remotely come close to happening) for an nfl team to go 13-3 and still miss the playoffs. With 3 wildcards it's 13-4 I believe.

2008 was notable for the 11-5 Patriots being out while the 8-8 Chargers were in.

I was pulling for the Giants at the end of last year just for the novelty of a 6-10 team in the playoffs.

Back on topic- The main thing to ensure is that no team has a specific incentive for losing a game.

In principle having a multi tier system has some sense to it, like they do in hurling, but the GAA has only used the tiers to marginalise and ignore the weaker and less popular teams.