Percentage of Irish speakers continues to fall - going bang ?

[PROCNA2018]

Posted many times before on this.

It's not a dead language.
If anything it is resurgent.
It now seems to be the next target for the media.
So be it.

There are more gaelscoileanna and gaelcoláistí springing up all over the country.
TG4 is going from strength to strength.

Impossible to ignore the attackers though.

I didn't like Irish in school.
I hated it.
Teachers were pricks.
What purpose does it serve?

The issue has always been the way we moved into the 26 county state. Penal laws drive the language into the ground. English becomes the language of officialdom and commerce. So as a knee jerk to all that we put Irish into everything, civil service, gardaí etc and literally drilled it into kids like it was a punishment.

The obvious knee jerk to that is, why? What purpose? I hate it.

It is our national language. We should all be able to speak it. The issue is in how it's taught. Posted this many times before - at primary school it should be taught as a spoken language with reading and writing to reinforce the spoken learning. At Junior Cert that could be expanded to include day to day writing, letters etc and possibly some literature including poetry and books. At Leaving Cert you could choose to continue that curriculum or go honours and start into the Peig, Tóraíocht type stuff.

Outcome we all leave school able to speak our national language. We can then choose to use it in daily conversation or not, a bit like how it is in Wales.
You never see the "what's the point" argument in Wales though - and that goes back to the why it happens here. But that's a whole other argument.

 

[Instabroke]

I've never heard so many people speaking Irish as I do these days. Its great. Its our language.

 

[After Noon]

Meridian - Sure why would your 'middle 2' want to speak English to their foreign and black co-workers when they can speak the non-functional dead language that is Irish to each other? Sounds like xenophobia to me. Using a language to exclude others from the conversation.

What was the name of this so called 'Gael Scoil' that you claim you sent them to? By the way, the word is 'Gaelscoil' not 'Gael' 'Scoil'. Surely someone who claims to be 'alright' at Irish would know one of the language's most basic words. Put simply, your story sounds like complete bullshit to me.

In my 50 plus years alive in his country, I have never heard the Irish language spoken anywhere outside of primary and secondary schools and Irish language/State media. It is a non-functional dead language and has been for decades. Most Irish language teachers privately admit this but they are financially dependent on the Irish language for their income, so they just play along with the big lie.

 

[After Noon]

PROCNA2018 - I notice you posted your lengthy message/rant in English. If the Irish language is so 'resurgent', then why did you not attempt to post it in Irish?

1) It is a long dead language.

2) According to CSO statistics, it is in decline and is not resurgent. In 2022 a cafe, shop and Irish language education centre on O'Sullivan's Quay, which was run by local voluntary group Gael-Taca closed down due to a lack of business. Surely, if as you falsely claim the Irish language was 'resurgent', these places would not be closing due to a lack of customers.

3) 'It now seems to be the next target for the media'. This is complete nonsense! RTE, TG4 and numerous national and local radio stations devote hours every week to Irish language programming. The State even pays them to do this. Yet they do not publish any viewer/listener figures for individual Irish language programming. They do this for individual English language programmes. Why not for individual Irish language programmes? Because they have virtually no viewers/listeners.

4) 'TG4 going from strength to strength'. Don't make me laugh. Half their programmes are now in English and according to official figures, their viewer figures even went down below where they were when they first started broadcasting. https://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/celebrity/arid-30948361.html

TG4 'extremely disappointed' by drop in viewing figures​

WED, 04 SEP, 2019 - 20:37

Its annual report showed its average all-day share fell by 5.9% to just 1.76%.

The publicly-funded Irish language channel TG4 has said it's "extremely disappointed" in a drop in viewing figures.

Its annual report showed its average all-day share fell by 5.9% to just 1.76%.

Meanwhile, its weekly reach dropped by 9% to 30%.
The company saw a 2.6% increase in funding last year to almost €34m.

5)'Attackers'? So you are trying to play the victim. No one is attacking this non-functional language. No one on this thread or any others that I have seen has said 'I didn't like Irish in school', 'I hated it', 'Teachers were pricks' or 'What purpose does it serve'. These are your delusions getting the better of you.

 

[After Noon]

6) English is the language of communication across the world today not just in Ireland.

7) The Irish Constitution written in the 1930s claimed (even falsely at that time) that Irish was our national language. At no point in the history of this state was Irish ever spoken by a majority of Irish citizens.

8) According to numerous government statistics it has been in decline for decades.

9) 'The issue is how it's taught'. This is a false argument that is regularly trotted out by the Irish language movement. It has been used repeatedly over the past 60 years. It is a pre-rehearsed false talking-point that they tell their supporters/members to use.

The Irish language movement are the reason Irish is taught the way it is in this country. They are the very teachers responsible for teaching it and they are as ever resistant to any change. Put simply they are hypocrites who trade in dishonest false arguments.

10) 'Outcome we all leave school able to speak our national language'.
This is simply delusional. The overwhelming majority of this country do not want to speak Irish, never spoke it and have already rejected it. It is not 'our' language and never will be. The overwhelming majority of this country don't subscribe to that old outdated version of Irish identity and have already rejected it as their parents did. Societies evolve and change over time.

11) Comparing Ireland to Wales is foolish. Different histories and demographics. Unlike the Irish language, Welsh never died out. Unlike Irish, Welsh never became a non-functional dead language.

At the end of the day, you are entitled to your opinion, as am I, but you are not entitled to your own facts.

There is no good reason on this earth why Irish second level students should not have their right to choose. Irish should be an optional subject for the Leaving Cert.

 

[J.R.R. hartley]

Bíonn caora dhubh ar an tréad is gile.

 

[PROCNA2018]

L6) English is the language of communication across the world today not just in Ireland.

7) The Irish Constitution written in the 1930s claimed (even falsely at that time) that Irish was our national language. At no point in the history of this state was Irish ever spoken by a majority of Irish citizens.

8) According to numerous government statistics it has been in decline for decades.

9) 'The issue is how it's taught'. This is a false argument that is regularly trotted out by the Irish language movement. It has been used repeatedly over the past 60 years. It is a pre-rehearsed false talking-point that they tell their supporters/members to use.

The Irish language movement are the reason Irish is taught the way it is in this country. They are the very teachers responsible for teaching it and they are as ever resistant to any change. Put simply they are hypocrites who trade in dishonest false arguments.

10) 'Outcome we all leave school able to speak our national language'.
This is simply delusional. The overwhelming majority of this country do not want to speak Irish, never spoke it and have already rejected it. It is not 'our' language and never will be. The overwhelming majority of this country don't subscribe to that old outdated version of Irish identity and have already rejected it as their parents did. Societies evolve and change over time.

11) Comparing Ireland to Wales is foolish. Different histories and demographics. Unlike the Irish language, Welsh never died out. Unlike Irish, Welsh never became a non-functional dead language.

At the end of the day, you are entitled to your opinion, as am I, but you are not entitled to your own facts.

There is no good reason on this earth why Irish second level students should not have their right to choose. Irish should be an optional subject for the Leaving Cert.

Didn't post it as Gaeilge as this is the Current Affairs forum and in all likelihood you'd not have been able to respond to it as Gaeilge.

We agree on one thing, you're absolutely entitled to your opinion but you're not entitled to your own facts.

The elephant in the room is the one thing you dismiss in most of your numbered points and like I said in my post, that's a whole different discussion - you seem intent to not include it because it negates your argument.

Have a good weekend.

 

[CaptainSensible]

6) English is the language of communication across the world today not just in Ireland.

7) The Irish Constitution written in the 1930s claimed (even falsely at that time) that Irish was our national language. At no point in the history of this state was Irish ever spoken by a majority of Irish citizens.

8) According to numerous government statistics it has been in decline for decades.

9) 'The issue is how it's taught'. This is a false argument that is regularly trotted out by the Irish language movement. It has been used repeatedly over the past 60 years. It is a pre-rehearsed false talking-point that they tell their supporters/members to use.

The Irish language movement are the reason Irish is taught the way it is in this country. They are the very teachers responsible for teaching it and they are as ever resistant to any change. Put simply they are hypocrites who trade in dishonest false arguments.

10) 'Outcome we all leave school able to speak our national language'.
This is simply delusional. The overwhelming majority of this country do not want to speak Irish, never spoke it and have already rejected it. It is not 'our' language and never will be. The overwhelming majority of this country don't subscribe to that old outdated version of Irish identity and have already rejected it as their parents did. Societies evolve and change over time.

11) Comparing Ireland to Wales is foolish. Different histories and demographics. Unlike the Irish language, Welsh never died out. Unlike Irish, Welsh never became a non-functional dead language.

At the end of the day, you are entitled to your opinion, as am I, but you are not entitled to your own facts.

There is no good reason on this earth why Irish second level students should not have their right to choose. Irish should be an optional subject for the Leaving Cert.

To be fair you could reach the same conclusion about all the other subjects which are obligatory for the leaving cert, if they are not job specific.

Maths, in everyday life all people need is the basics of addition, subtraction, division, and multiplication, this should be mastered well before leaving cert so why is it obligatory? When was the last time you used calculus if it is not necessary for whatever job you may have?

English, again most people should be able to read and write and speak it well before leaving cert, what value does parsing poetry or learning Shakespeare add, how often do you need this skill in everyday life? So why obligatory then?

A foreign language which is usually a choice between Spanish and French, how many cafes have you visited whereby Irish people are deep in conversation in either, would it be close to zero? How many Irish people go to France for a job or Spain or for what is the most part a third world continent in south America? Not many, so why push this on the rest of us?

Yes Irish is obligatory for the Leaving and so are the others mentioned above, and yet it is only Irish that attracts opprobrium, so I think there is something in Procnas point about people disliking it simply for the reasons he mentioned, because if it was only about its usefulness or practicality we could similarly dismiss the others on this point and yet this does not happen.

 

[TheOutdoorThreadmill]

Great posts Proc and CS, spot on.

 

[After Noon]

CaptainSensible - You have more false arguments and factually untrue statements for us.

The same conclusion could not be reached about why English and Maths are compulsory for the Leaving Cert. Unlike English and Maths, the justification for why the Irish language is compulsory is based on lies. The dogs in the street know this. This is why the language itself continues to decline. Everybody knows this including the Irish language movement but they refuse to publicly admit this because their income from the state is dependent on these lies.

1) Irish is not and never will be 'our' language. To claim otherwise is a lie.

2) To claim that the Irish language is used in commerce and business or in any workplace today outside the education system and state/state subsidised media is a lie.

There is a reason why the Irish language doesn't exist in the private sector - there is no demand for it.

Maths and English are required for almost every job. You cannot function effectively in western societies without Maths and English.

According to the previous census, more people in Ireland speak Polish, French and German on a daily basis than speak Irish. You have more chance of meeting an Irish person speaking these languages that you do an Irish person speaking Irish.

Personally, I have lost count of the number of times I have seen Irish people talking to their foreign born partners in French or German. It is commonplace in Cork. It happens in cafes and pubs regularly. Try going into UCC, CIT, the Crane Lane, the Roundy House or try working in Apple (Cork's largest employer). We are an integrated European society.

You asked 'How many Irish people go to France for a job?'
Quite a lot and not just to teach English after doing a TEFL course. Clearly you have never heard of the people studying Commerce and French or Commerce and German in university or people working for multi-nationals. In some instances, you cannot qualify for your degree or progress in the workplace unless you have worked abroad and that includes working in France obviously.

You falsely claimed 'Yes Irish is obligatory for the Leaving and so are the others mentioned above'.
Your statement is factually untrue. Foreign languages are not compulsory subjects for the Leaving Cert unlike the non-functional dead language that is Irish, which remains compulsory. If you choose not to study a foreign language, then you do not have to study it for your Leaving Cert.

At the end of the day, you are entitled to your opinion even if it is not evidence-based, but you are not entitled to your own made up facts.

There is no good reason on this earth why Irish second level students should not have their right to choose. The Irish language should be an optional subject for the Leaving Cert.