Cork Hurlers - Part 2

The problem is not the lack of genuine thoroughbreds coming through at 19/20, it’s the complete absence of developed thoroughbreds in the older cohort. We bandy names about like Fitzgibbon, Coleman, Connolly, Dalton, Downey, O Mahony etc as if these guys are modern day hurling galacticos - sadly, outside of Cork they are just good hurlers but to win an AI you need more than that. That’s where we’ve been coming up short for the last 20 years.
 
The Rob Downey at half forward ship has sailed at this stage and it is not like Cork are stacked with physical defenders. Far better to focus on an already converted wing back to wing forward in Tim O'Mahony and focus on the more physical forwards already there in Connolly, Dalton, Hayes, Twomey, Cunningham
I thought our back 6 which was not our first choice 6 didn't do that bad. I do think that's something the manager has achieved since coming in.They were under constant pressure as per usual because the forwards weren't winning most clearances from defence or stopping Clare's defenders coming out with the ball. At this stage I'd almost consider both Downey and Tim O Mahony in the top 6.

Our inability to win our own ball is embarrassing and we will never win an All Ireland until it's rectified. I don't care who you are, if you won't chase and harry defenders when they have the ball, or compete competently in rucks or you dont at least break down high balls then you should be dropped. Early days but I wouldn't start Horgan or Kingston and I wouldn't have Lehane on the bench. Hopefully they will prove me wrong.
 
I thought our back 6 which was not our first choice 6 didn't do that bad. I do think that's something the manager has achieved since coming in.They were under constant pressure as per usual because the forwards weren't winning most clearances from defence or stopping Clare's defenders coming out with the ball. At this stage I'd almost consider both Downey and Tim O Mahony in the top 6.

Our inability to win our own ball is embarrassing and we will never win an All Ireland until it's rectified. I don't care who you are, if you won't chase and harry defenders when they have the ball, or compete competently in rucks or you dont at least break down high balls then you should be dropped. Early days but I wouldn't start Horgan or Kingston and I wouldn't have Lehane on the bench. Hopefully they will prove me wrong.

Agreed up to a point - I'd start Hoggy (though maybe that's a bit of bias) and bring Kingston on maybe to replace him. We certainly need to win more of our own ball. If we can't then even when playing with a gale you're having to play short balls "through the lines" which throws away any wind advantage and gives opposition defences time to funnel back and successfully defend more ball.

No advantage either in having all the ball-winners in the world if they can't score when they have it. It's getting the blend right is the thing. Ditto experience and potential.

Hopefully PR in all his experience in club and underage is on the right track and getting us closer to that holy grail. Can't believe there's guys are writing him off already. He's surely deserving of more time. And unless things go completely pear-shaped at this stage I'm hopeful that 2025 will be our year - think this year is too big an ask from where we're coming from.
 
The problem is not the lack of genuine thoroughbreds coming through at 19/20, it’s the complete absence of developed thoroughbreds in the older cohort. We bandy names about like Fitzgibbon, Coleman, Connolly, Dalton, Downey, O Mahony etc as if these guys are modern day hurling galacticos - sadly, outside of Cork they are just good hurlers but to win an AI you need more than that. That’s where we’ve been coming up short for the last 20 years.
You’ve hit the nail on the head there. We don’t really have any top class players or at the very least the top class players we do possess have not shown top class form. We haven’t had an All Star since 2019 when we had 1. We haven’t had more than 3 since 2006.
 
The problem is not the lack of genuine thoroughbreds coming through at 19/20, it’s the complete absence of developed thoroughbreds in the older cohort. We bandy names about like Fitzgibbon, Coleman, Connolly, Dalton, Downey, O Mahony etc as if these guys are modern day hurling galacticos - sadly, outside of Cork they are just good hurlers but to win an AI you need more than that. That’s where we’ve been coming up short for the last 20 years.
In fairness that's a very well put points and is in tune with what I have been trying to summarise talking with people over the last while.

Take any established all ireland winning team over the last two decades in either code. 10 or more players of the starting 15 are locked into start and they'll hold there spot by constantly delivering time and time again at the highest level.

With Cork there's a lot of good decent hurlers in the mix, but there's a debate around who starts where in nearly every position apart from Joyce at CB, and even fellas are suggesting he goes to midfield now.

I know fellas will chime in saying that different teams move players and adapt games plans based on oppositions and game plans etc, but the fundamentals go back to my main point which it's very hard to identify who our core group of starting players are, because it doesn't appear we have one, we've been a team in transition for 20 years.

I really hope that changes soon, and I do have faith in this Managment team to get it right but we have to start seeing progress real soon.
 
I would agree with that.
also The key players on that team were O Donovan Cian Dillon, Bugler, Colin Ryan, Pat Donnellan and so on. They gave the solid core that the rest of them were added to

The other factor there was that we had 2 groups of 21s
the 08 09 10 who won an all ireland in 09 and pushed a truly great tipp under 21 set up in 08 and 10

The 21s of 12 13 14 added to that. Cork are starting to get there, (unfortunately) it will take picking lads that have it in the guts though. Pat Ryan choosing the roches, Twomey Tommy O Connell and the likes ahead of some others suggests he isnt interested in the pressure for certin types of lads.

I will admit, the lehane thing has me baffled.
I can only assume Lehanes attitude is exemplary in the squad
you're totally right on the point re guts. Simple comparison last weekend was Eoin Roche vs NOL. NOL has way more hurling than Eoin Roche but was typically loose and lacking in aggression at times. Roche was tight and fiery... lot of lads think he doesn't have the quality but we need to get the spirit and aggression of that 2021 u20 all ireland winning team. That day in Nolan park wasn't pure quality but there was a consistent intensity that you just don't typically associate with cork. There was plenty of it last year but you couldn't say we were at Clare, Limerick or KK levels.

The answer is a mix of principles and player selection. Some coaches can pull it out of players. Sheady got it out of the likes of Callinan (in 2019) who hadn't really shown it previously... and sometimes it just won't be ever pulled out of a player so different player is selected.

There is simply no way that cody or Kiely if they were managing Cork would have lehane, kingston, horgan in the same team ever. It's not that the lads don't give 100% - they absolutely do... they're just not able to scrap for the ball as if their lives depended on it. Richie Hogan was probably the only forward that cody would select that couldn't do it. kiely doesn't have any, maybe lynch at a stretch.

You reference TOC above - he is definitely a championship starter for Cork, i've been extremely impressed by him since getting dropped for the limerick game last year - tonnes of fight in him & hurling. I would consider him for a midfield or forward role, maybe 11.
 
Agreed up to a point - I'd start Hoggy (though maybe that's a bit of bias) and bring Kingston on maybe to replace him. We certainly need to win more of our own ball. If we can't then even when playing with a gale you're having to play short balls "through the lines" which throws away any wind advantage and gives opposition defences time to funnel back and successfully defend more ball.

No advantage either in having all the ball-winners in the world if they can't score when they have it. It's getting the blend right is the thing. Ditto experience and potential.

Hopefully PR in all his experience in club and underage is on the right track and getting us closer to that holy grail. Can't believe there's guys are writing him off already. He's surely deserving of more time. And unless things go completely pear-shaped at this stage I'm hopeful that 2025 will be our year - think this year is too big an ask from where we're coming from.
I haven't written PR off at all, some fellas have. I just think his honeymoon is over and hard questions need to be asked of him now.

To go by standards of recent years he doesn't need more time either.
Kieran Kingston in his first term after first year his head was called for as he dropped 5 senior players and brought in likes of ROF, SK, MC, DF. Kingston started the transition, yes there's new young fellas coming up now but the transition period in Cork is over, average age of team outside of Cahalan/Harnedy/Lehane/Hoggy is 25/26. PR does not have as much work to do as KK did to transition a nearly a full team.
Comments on FB/Twitter etc was very much uncalled for I wasn't here then so can't comment on here.
Following year he won the Munster in Thurles and the same people calling for his head were the first people to congratulate him.
Kingston knew after '21 Final he did all he could and did not look for another term and was time for a fresh set of eyes. He went out on his terms. Didn't go out a hero as didn't win the Holy Grail but he's the man that got us the closest in recent years and that deserves respect.

This year is make of break for PR simple as.
He's needs to be more ruthless as I've said in a previous post.
Early days and I'm giving him time but having 11 players in our half with a gale wind, going short through the line and getting turned over by midfield was downright insanity.
 
Exactly.. there isn’t much point in equating underage with senior anymore.
What we aren’t producing much of anymore is the outstanding individuals, you know the 19/20 year old that is clearly destined for a big career at senior level. These pages are filled with names of loads of guys with potential but very few clear and obvious stars of the future..
When you aren’t producing those generational players you won’t have everything that’s needed to get to the top of the summit. You might get a long way there but you’ll always come up short with them.
Generational talents like that only come along once or twice in a decade but would you not say that Ciaran Joyce is/was one of them?
 
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