the US police killings

[Pontipine]

Are you saying that the police officer purposely murdered the guy because he hates black people? That's a pretty serious claim if so. Do you have any specific evidence to back it up or is it just your interpretation of what you saw on the video?

He treated the black guy that way not because he hated him, but because he thinks a lot less of him than that of a white person. He did not intentionally kill him, but would he have treated a white guy in the same manner, like a dog? Doubt it.

 

[KD Langer]

Are you saying that the police officer purposely murdered the guy because he hates black people? That's a pretty serious claim if so. Do you have any specific evidence to back it up or is it just your interpretation of what you saw on the video?

No I'm not saying that . What I am saying is I'd doubt he'd have been just as forceful if it had been a white man standing there . The guy is on the ground and he is still choking him ffs . I also think he'd have been charged if it had been a white victim .

 

[The Curious Lozenge]

Do you believe that there is an element of racism throughout the Police forces in the US?

i think there are probably some racists there, no different to the general population. i don't think the organisation is inherently racist.

 

[cletusclark]

He treated the black guy that way not because he hated him, but because he thinks a lot less of him than that of a white person. He did not intentionally kill him, but would he have treated a white guy in the same manner, like a dog? Doubt it.

No I'm not saying that . What I am saying is I'd doubt he'd have been just as forceful if it had been a white man standing there . The guy is on the ground and he is still choking him ffs . I also think he'd have been charged if it had been a white victim .

So he's more violent towards black people because they're black than he is towards imaginary white people in identical situations. He doesn't hate black people but he treats them like dogs because they're black.

If this is the case then I assume he has a history of using excessive force towards black people consistently, while being more restrained when faced with a white person. It would be impossible to draw the conclusions you are drawing based on this one case, surely?

 

[Killyoursons]

So he's more violent towards black people because they're black than he is towards imaginary white people in identical situations. He doesn't hate black people but he treats them like dogs because they're black.

If this is the case then I assume he has a history of using excessive force towards black people consistently, while being more restrained when faced with a white person. It would be impossible to draw the conclusions you are drawing based on this one case, surely?

Surely. But what about various other indications of institutional racism on the part of many police forces, prosecutors, judges etc in the US?

Here are some stats for starters: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-quigley/fourteen-examples-of-raci_b_658947.html

I think there is room for debate on some of these, and I certainly wouldn't say that the whole system is racist. But there is considerable evidence that the US justice system has a race problem, imo.

 

[cletusclark]

Surely. But what about various other indications of institutional racism on the part of many police forces, prosecutors, judges etc in the US?

Here are some stats for starters: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-quigley/fourteen-examples-of-raci_b_658947.html

I think there is room for debate on some of these, and I certainly wouldn't say that the whole system is racist. But there is considerable evidence that the US justice system has a race problem, imo.

The posters above are making quite definite pronouncements on how this particular man feels about black people, not the justice system in general.

You've given stats purporting to show evidence of institutional racism, all I'm doing is asking the other posters to produce some kind of evidence for their claim.

It seems to be a case of innocent until proven guilty (unless you're a police officer) for these lads.

 

[Killyoursons]

The posters above are making quite definite pronouncements on how this particular man feels about black people, not the justice system in general.

You've given stats purporting to show evidence of institutional racism, all I'm doing is asking the other posters to produce some kind of evidence for their claim.

It seems to be a case of innocent until proven guilty (unless you're a police officer) for these lads.

I haven't made any claims about the attitudes of this particular officer. On the other hand, there are posters claiming that it was not a racist incident. Given the evidence of institutional racism in the justice system, I wouldn't be so confident about that. If this is just an example of bad policing leading to a completely accidental fatality, isn't it odd that such examples tend to happen to black people in disproportionate numbers?

I agree that this officer should be considered innocent until proven guilty. However, I do feel he had a case to answer, and I'm surprised this isn't going to trial.

 

[cletusclark]

I haven't made any claims about the attitudes of this particular officer. On the other hand, there are posters claiming that it was not a racist incident. Given the evidence of institutional racism in the justice system, I wouldn't be so confident about that. If this is just an example of bad policing leading to a completely accidental fatality, isn't it odd that such examples tend to happen to black people in disproportionate numbers?

I agree that this officer should be considered innocent until proven guilty. However, I do feel he had a case to answer, and I'm surprised this isn't going to trial.

Well any time you get something like this happening then you'll have people making claims of institutional racism and saying it's not about this one case, etc. I'm not sure what they expect to happen on foot of this.

The fact is that for the individuals involved, it is very much about this case. Particularly in the context of justice and law enforcement, I don't think it's fair or right to ascribe motives to the officer in question based on perceived flaws in the justice system at large, and the actions of other individuals over whom he has no control. In the same way that it wouldn't be fair or right to paint the victim as a dangerous criminal given that most dangerous crimes are committed by his demographic. Every case needs to be assessed on its own merits alone, otherwise you're just scapegoating, which is simply another form of injustice masquerading as justice.

I'm not sure why it didn't go to trial. Presumably the DA or whoever deals with these matters decided that the case would be unlikely to result in a conviction, and discharged his responsibility not to waste public money and clog up the courts with what would essentially be a show trial.

 

[Killyoursons]

Well any time you get something like this happening then you'll have people making claims of institutional racism and saying it's not about this one case, etc. I'm not sure what they expect to happen on foot of this.

The fact is that for the individuals involved, it is very much about this case. Particularly in the context of justice and law enforcement, I don't think it's fair or right to ascribe motives to the officer in question based on perceived flaws in the justice system at large, and the actions of other individuals over whom he has no control. In the same way that it wouldn't be fair or right to paint the victim as a dangerous criminal given that most dangerous crimes are committed by his demographic. Every case needs to be assessed on its own merits alone, otherwise you're just scapegoating, which is simply another form of injustice masquerading as justice.

I'm not sure why it didn't go to trial. Presumably the DA or whoever deals with these matters decided that the case would be unlikely to result in a conviction, and discharged his responsibility not to waste public money and clog up the courts with what would essentially be a show trial.

You'll have people making those claims when there is evidence of institutional racism in the police force in question. Where there isn't, I doubt such claims will be nearly as common, or be given much credence.

The officer wasn't charged based on a decision by the grand jury, not the DA. Out of interest, why do you think a trial would essentially have been a show trial?

 

[cletusclark]

You'll have people making those claims when there is evidence of institutional racism in the police force in question. Where there isn't, I doubt such claims will be nearly as common, or be given much credence.

The officer wasn't charged based on a decision by the grand jury, not the DA. Out of interest, why do you think a trial would essentially have been a show trial?

I didn't say that was my opinion, I was speculating as to the reasoning behind the trial not going ahead.

To be honest, a lot of the "evidence" of institutional racism is pretty sketchy. Figures are constantly thrown around about the percentage of black people in the general population relative to the prison population. This assumes that crime rates are the same across the racial spectrum, which is nonsense of course. I mean, men make up 50% of the population but a much higher proportion of prisoners are men. This doesn't mean that the justice system is institutionally sexist.

You could apply a similar analogy to other situations. How many women are shot by police every year in the US as a proportion of women who are arrested? Now compare this with the same figure with regard to men. How many women are frisked by police after being stopped versus the percentage of men in a similar situation?

As we can see from the discussion on here, with people immediately ascribing very specific racial motives and even attitudes to the officer in NY on the basis of a YouTube video they watched, charges of institutional racism are frequently open to confirmation bias.