Cork Hurlers - Part 2

[leeside_rebel]

Can you explain what club success KK has had as a manager that he deserves the leeway he gets. You know, the leeway that has seen him put in charge of Cork not once, but twice, and now given a one year extension? He managed Tracton to what exactly?????

I really don't get the Shefflin was given "leeway that others wouldn't recieve" about a guy who has been a successful club manager and in his first season as an inter-county manager of Galway, compared to Kieran Kingston who has zero in club management and has already had TWO failed stints at managing Cork and is now being given an extension.

Shane O'Neill wasn't given the leeway before him. If that had been shefflin I don't think he'd have been gone as quickly

Kingston didnt win an all Ireland but I'm still not sure you can say he failed.
Failing would be not even getting out of Munster, or winning a game.
Course we want all Ireland's but we need to be realistic too. Maybe someone else would have done better but I'm not sure they'd have beaten limerick no matter who was there. Maybe cork would have been more competitive in all Ireland final and closer but end result would probably still be a loss

 

[North Cork]

Shefflin has been pretty average so far. Terrible league campaign.
Fell completely flat in the Leinster final
Beat a Cork team who were terrible and hit shocking wides
He's a lot to do yet to be even considered anyway decent. Having been a brilliant player and having club success as a manager has probably given him a bit of leeway that others wouldn't receive

Agree with all of that.

Let's see what he can do with Galway in their semi final against Limerick.

We need new faces in charge in Leeside but KK has brought us to an All Ireland final followed by a league final and deserves recognition for that.

I think it is recognised that the talent is in Cork to do something serious but the challenge is to get a management structure in place that can get this group over the line.

As time goes by my feeling is that KK may stay and I can accept that if the team around him is changed. The addition of Ryan/Sherlock for instance I think would make us all more hopeful.

 

[SoundMan]

Shane O'Neill wasn't given the leeway before him. If that had been shefflin I don't think he'd have been gone as quickly

Kingston didnt win an all Ireland but I'm still not sure you can say he failed.
Failing would be not even getting out of Munster, or winning a game.
Course we want all Ireland's but we need to be realistic too. Maybe someone else would have done better but I'm not sure they'd have beaten limerick no matter who was there. Maybe cork would have been more competitive in all Ireland final and closer but end result would probably still be a loss

If being one of three teams to get out of Munster, or winning a game, is the standard by which you judge whether or not a Cork Senior Hurling manager has failed then you and I have very different criteria and ambition for Cork.

Perhaps you're right and I'm far too ambitious and unrealistic for Cork and we should just know our place - the halcion days of Cork inter-county hurling are over and we should content ourselves with winning the odd game and in getting out of Munster

 

[leeside_rebel]

If being one of three teams to get out of Munster, or winning a game, is the standard by which you judge whether or not a Cork Senior Hurling manager has failed then you and I have very different criteria and ambition for Cork.

Perhaps you're right and I'm far too ambitious and unrealistic for Cork and we should just know our place - the halcion days of Cork inter-county hurling are over and we should content ourselves with winning the odd game and in getting out of Munster

Just saying that people need to accept where the team is. Of course I think the team need to win one in the coming few years but at present I think there's a gap to the top

I'm just saying where does the line end between failing/achieving?

If Kingston has failed then only kiely or cody haven't, because no other current manager has won an All Ireland

Liam Cahill has taken Waterford to an all Ireland final , so has Kingston
Waterford didn't come out of group this year.
So is Cahill a failure?

 

[PROCNA2018]

Ah come on - surely we can accept that Lohan and Shefflin have shown themselves better managers in their intercounty careers to date than KK has shown himself to be?

In fairness?

Both Shefflin and Lohan were minutes away from being out of the championship.
We left it behind us. 3-11 missed in the first half alone. Gave away 6 points for nothing and only lost by a point. Would we have beaten Limerick? Maybe not - but Shefflin got away with one against us and if he hadn't wouldn't you say he is a better manager?

People need to get real.

KK has given his all to Cork hurling and is to be commended for his commitment and dedication over multiple years. I do not think he was offered another year. I think the CCB are in holding pattern.

You could pick from a whole host of people to be involved next time but the key must be an open docket.
When DOG insisted on an open docket with no interference - we won 2 AI's - the last 2.

Whoever it is must have free rein to do it their way - no internal selector dogma, no external influence.

Create a tight knit group that keeps the out out. Pick a plan and a style, and a second plan and style and roll the dice.

Ben O'Connor, Wayne Sherlock, Pat Ryan and a couple of others.

I don't believe we need to go outside the county.

I think there is a place for the experience of others like DOG still but it wouldn't be a deal breaker.

And this is just my opinion, which I am entitled to and is as valid as any one else's.

It shouldn't be a Barr's way or a Glen way or a Sars way - it shouldn't be the gospel according to the CCB.
We need to lose the notion that the traditional club powers should have some absolute right to dictate to the rest of the county.

My feeling is that the Tony Considine's of the world are just meddling. At it again with the players should have no say in management. Of course they should, the last time that was forced through it did not go well for anyone - the incumbents or those forced to more serious action. There is a process there, players reps, CCB reps - what it does not do is give the players control of who the manager is, they don't get to pick the manager, they surely should have a say though.

It is a long time since 2009. It is even longer since 2005. Hard to believe it is now going to be 18 years since we last brought Liam home to Cork. ENough of the sniping and agendas and the personal attacks on managers, backroom and players. Critical from a hurling point of view of course, but the personal nature of some of the stuff, even posts on here, while borne from frustration and disappointment has no more place than the gouging incident at the weekend.

The CCB would seem to have a plan - they will presumably enlighten everyone in due course. The speculation since losing has done nothing but peddle narrative and counter narrative instead of being decisive, clear and having a plan.

Rant over.

 

[red&blue]

In fairness?

Both Shefflin and Lohan were minutes away from being out of the championship.
We left it behind us. 3-11 missed in the first half alone. Gave away 6 points for nothing and only lost by a point. Would we have beaten Limerick? Maybe not - but Shefflin got away with one against us and if he hadn't wouldn't you say he is a better manager?

People need to get real.

KK has given his all to Cork hurling and is to be commended for his commitment and dedication over multiple years. I do not think he was offered another year. I think the CCB are in holding pattern.

You could pick from a whole host of people to be involved next time but the key must be an open docket.
When DOG insisted on an open docket with no interference - we won 2 AI's - the last 2.

Whoever it is must have free rein to do it their way - no internal selector dogma, no external influence.

Create a tight knit group that keeps the out out. Pick a plan and a style, and a second plan and style and roll the dice.

Ben O'Connor, Wayne Sherlock, Pat Ryan and a couple of others.

I don't believe we need to go outside the county.

I think there is a place for the experience of others like DOG still but it wouldn't be a deal breaker.

And this is just my opinion, which I am entitled to and is as valid as any one else's.

It shouldn't be a Barr's way or a Glen way or a Sars way - it shouldn't be the gospel according to the CCB.
We need to lose the notion that the traditional club powers should have some absolute right to dictate to the rest of the county.

My feeling is that the Tony Considine's of the world are just meddling. At it again with the players should have no say in management. Of course they should, the last time that was forced through it did not go well for anyone - the incumbents or those forced to more serious action. There is a process there, players reps, CCB reps - what it does not do is give the players control of who the manager is, they don't get to pick the manager, they surely should have a say though.

It is a long time since 2009. It is even longer since 2005. Hard to believe it is now going to be 18 years since we last brought Liam home to Cork. ENough of the sniping and agendas and the personal attacks on managers, backroom and players. Critical from a hurling point of view of course, but the personal nature of some of the stuff, even posts on here, while borne from frustration and disappointment has no more place than the gouging incident at the weekend.

The CCB would seem to have a plan - they will presumably enlighten everyone in due course. The speculation since losing has done nothing but peddle narrative and counter narrative instead of being decisive, clear and having a plan.

Rant over.

Jesus man get a grip, who’s saying it should be a Barrs way or a Glen way?

Wondering when you mean “the last time the players didn’t have an input it didn’t end well”

Tony Considine is right, players should have no say in any appointments, of course they should be consulted and their views taken on board but at the end of the day they cannot dictate who their manager is, that is a recipe for disaster

 

[SoundMan]

Just saying that people need to accept where the team is. Of course I think the team need to win one in the coming few years but at present I think there's a gap to the top

I'm just saying where does the line end between failing/achieving?

If Kingston has failed then only kiely or cody haven't, because no other current manager has won an All Ireland

Liam Cahill has taken Waterford to an all Ireland final , so has Kingston
Waterford didn't come out of group this year.
So is Cahill a failure?

I don't think you're comparing like with like at all. Limerick are the target now fair enough and it'll take a very good panel with a very good manager to overcome them imho. But how many even provincial titles have we won under KK? What exactly has he got in his management CV that makes it OK to appoint him as Cork manager once, then appoint him again, and then give him an extension to his contract in the immediate wake of going out of the Championship to Galway?

I genuinely don't get it. I think we should thank KK for his efforts, regret that it hasn't worked out for him, and move on, rather than keeping him on in the hope that it'll eventually all come right for him and his backroom staff. It might have been different if we didn't have the impression that he only stumbled on to the best positioning of players and the eventual dispensing with tippy tappy.

 

[PROCNA2018]

Jesus man get a grip, who’s saying it should be a Barrs way or a Glen way?

Wondering when you mean “the last time the players didn’t have an input it didn’t end well”

Tony Considine is right, players should have no say in any appointments, of course they should be consulted and their views taken on board but at the end of the day they cannot dictate who their manager is, that is a recipe for disaster

I didn't say anyone said it - I was pointing out that that notion exists.

As far as I am aware you're a Barr's man r&b. A club that is steeped in history in both codes with a massive tradition that has produced heroes for Cork down through the years. Yet from memory Barr's have not won a county in nearly 20 or so years. And I am only using them as an example not having a go, there is the idea abroad that certain clubs "know better", "have more clout" etc based on their traditional place in the annals of Cork hurling. Could just as easily be Glen or Sars etc.

My point being we need to get away from that and go purely from the point of view of what works - open docket - it shouldn't matter if it is a Newtown manager or a Barr's manager or a Glen manager - it should be about who can get Cork back to glory.

Considine has written 2 pieces and maybe more since we went out.
First one was KK has to go.
Second one yesterday was players can't have a say in management.

So to answer your question - look what happened when players were cut out of the management selection process last time - we had the strike. That was bad for EVERYONE. Those in place and those who went on strike. All because the idea that CCB dictates and players play was deemed to be the rule of the day. No one is suggesting the players pick the manager but they have to have a say. Considine saying is stirring the pot - a pot which rekindles a time where there was centralised control and what was in the best interests of Cork success came second. And THAT is what I meant - in so far as there can't be vested interests at a club level, there can't be at CCB level either - it simply won't bring us success.

I'm reminded of a lady I worked with who was good friends with Ger Mac at the time - I ended up on tv for 20 secs about the strike and the following day she read me the riot act about what I was doing and how dare I attack him and he is a Cork legend. She refused to speak to me for weeks afterwards and refused point blank to go to a Cork game while any of the strikers were involved either on the pitch or otherwise. And for the sake of it, the very first thing I said on the back of the truck was no one was anti Ger Mac or wanted rid of him or disrespected him or his contribution to Cork hurling, in fact when I was small we were neighbours with him.

Point being we need to leave the agendas, the vested interests, the score settling type stuff behind us.
Even on here over the last couple of weeks - Players on drugs, cosy cartels, closed shops..........like Cork hurling was a mafia and there was an omuerta that said if you don't go along you don't get along.

I have posted loads of times of the expertise on this forum alone. Yourself and junior f and others who while I might disagree with ye on bits and pieces - clearly have an encyclopaedic knowledge of the game. If you guys exist here among the 20 or 30 regulars in this thread - then the know how is definitely there in the county to get this right. But we won't do it if we stick to the usual, where if a person is appointed they're doomed before they begin, if b player is selected the season is over before a poc of a ball.

This year should mark a watershed in Cork hurling. You yerself has called for a clearing of the decks.
I don't think KK will be there next year. I think there is another ticket being prepared. I would think Pat Ryan and Wayne Sherlock and maybe Ben O'Connor would be good although per Soundy's post above clearly they would have no senior intercounty previous experience - maybe that isn't a bad thing - if we get a clear run without interference, with the support of all internally and from the supporter base.

 

[Rebel CNC]

One game against us????? Shefflin in his first year already guided Galway to beat his native KK in the championship as well as a creditable draw against Wexford who gave Clare a much better game than Cork managed, and so get get Galway to a Leinster final. Fair enough KK beat them second time around but it wasn't bad going for his first year managing a squad so lacking in talent that they've been overly reliant on just four players to score.

Interesting to see that you think Shefflin no better (perhaps even worse) an intercounty manager than Kingston though.

Too early to judge Shefflin. Beat KK in Leinster but then were brutal in the Leinster final. Just about got over the line to beat Cork after being gifted two early goals and Cork missing a host of chances.
He can change the narrative by beating Limerick or at least holding them to a score or two but as things stand, very much a 6/10 season. As for "lacking in talent", part of the reason he took the job was due to reasoning that with 5 minor AIs in six years between 2015 and 2020, there was plenty of talent there to work with, with more coming on stream in next year or two.

He may well turn out to be an excellent county bainnisteoir yet but jury very much out after first year (unless as mentioned, they give Limerick a right rattle).

To be fair, think his first year in charge seriously thrown off kilter by his brother passing in middle of league campaign.

 

[TheOutdoorThreadmill]

It shouldn't be a Barr's way or a Glen way or a Sars way - it shouldn't be the gospel according to the CCB.
We need to lose the notion that the traditional club powers should have some absolute right to dictate to the rest of the county.

Where is this notion that they are dictating to the rest of the county coming from? I've never come across it.