Cyclists

Quite, do it properly or don't do it at all.

Painting bike symbols on the road all the way down college road is an absolute waste of time and money, does nothing for cyclists.

Rossa Avenue has a bunch of examples of it done badly, especially on the curraheen road end, e.g. this nonsense

View attachment 31144

What are you objecting to here HBB - the cycle lane on the right of the photo that gives cyclists an unhindered path on the roadway the length of the road, or the cycleway that exits on to a presumably shared cycle-pedestrian path on the left. Or is it that you think people should not be allowed park anywhere on the street in Rossa Avenue - there's a lengthy double line further on restricting parking as it is.
 
What are you objecting to here HBB - the cycle lane on the right of the photo that gives cyclists an unhindered path on the roadway the length of the road, or the cycleway that exits on to a presumably shared cycle-pedestrian path on the left. Or is it that you think people should not be allowed park anywhere on the street in Rossa Avenue - there's a lengthy double line further on restricting parking as it is.
It is not a shared cycle-pedestrian path. Note the blue sign.

I'm saying it's an absolute waste of paint. And money. Why would a single cyclist follow the guidance?

I'm also saying that an unprotected contraflow lane, on the right, is dangerous. That is a one way road for drivers, but it is not one way for cyclists. Drivers are not necessarily expecting someone coming the other way, and it gets very narrow, a few safety poles would be very appropriate here.
 
It is not a shared cycle-pedestrian path. Note the blue sign.

I'm saying it's an absolute waste of paint. And money. Why would a single cyclist follow the guidance?

I'm also saying that an unprotected contraflow lane, on the right, is dangerous. That is a one way road for drivers, but it is not one way for cyclists. Drivers are not necessarily expecting someone coming the other way, and it gets very narrow, a few safety poles would be very appropriate here.

If it's not a shared cycle-pedestrian path then that's very easily sorted with an arrow curving right rather than left.
In all honesty if that's your gripe then you've little to worry you.

Why is a contraflow - surely the safest for cyclists in that if they're looking where they're going they can see on-coming vehicular traffic that's passing nearby - dangerous? 🤷‍♂️

Drivers aren't always expecting cyclists to be cycling the wrong way up one-way streets; ignoring traffic lights; weaving in and out of lanes of traffic etc but cyclists regularly do that so your point is a bit silly if you ask me
 
If it's not a shared cycle-pedestrian path then that's very easily sorted with an arrow curving right rather than left.
In all honesty if that's your gripe then you've little to worry you.

Why is a contraflow - surely the safest for cyclists in that if they're looking where they're going they can see on-coming vehicular traffic that's passing nearby - dangerous? 🤷‍♂️

Drivers aren't always expecting cyclists to be cycling the wrong way up one-way streets; ignoring traffic lights; weaving in and out of lanes of traffic etc but cyclists regularly do that so your point is a bit silly if you ask me
That would be better, but it's also pointless to even waste the paint on it.


As for your point that if the cyclist is careful then it's not dangerous, I don't think that's really the right way to look at how to deal with risks on the road.
Paint isn't decent cycle infrastructure.

Also, some cyclists are idiots. Some motorists are idiots. Idiots pervade all walks of life. The risks from idiocy are very, very different for cyclists vs motorists.

Cyclist being an idiot = probably going to be a major problem for them if they keep it up
Motorist being an idiot = probably going to be a major problem for someone else if they keep it up.
 
That would be better, but it's also pointless to even waste the paint on it.


As for your point that if the cyclist is careful then it's not dangerous, I don't think that's really the right way to look at how to deal with risks on the road.
Paint isn't decent cycle infrastructure.

Also, some cyclists are idiots. Some motorists are idiots. Idiots pervade all walks of life. The risks from idiocy are very, very different for cyclists vs motorists.

Cyclist being an idiot = probably going to be a major problem for them if they keep it up
Motorist being an idiot = probably going to be a major problem for someone else if they keep it up.

But we've seen time and again when there's actual physical separations between cycle lanes and motor lanes, the cycle lanes are woefully under used. Cyclists themselves are avoiding using them. So instead of wasting good money and making the motor lanes, that are frequently shared by cyclists, narrower and thus more dangerous wouldn't it make sense not to put in segregated cycle lanes at all unless there was an onus on cyclists to use them?
 
But we've seen time and again when there's actual physical separations between cycle lanes and motor lanes, the cycle lanes are woefully under used. Cyclists themselves are avoiding using them. So instead of wasting good money and making the motor lanes, that are frequently shared by cyclists, narrower and thus more dangerous wouldn't it make sense not to put in segregated cycle lanes at all unless there was an onus on cyclists to use them?
That's the wrong way around IMO.

People don't want to cycle because it's considered dangerous
Don't put in protected cycle lanes until there's enough cyclists to justify it.
People don't randomly start cycling
No cycle lanes.


There's pretty good research that what happens is:
People don't want to cycle because it's considered dangerous
Good, safe cycle infrastructure installed
People start using it


There may well be a lag between good safe infrastructure being installed and people using it.


There are a few other things to consider as part of this that require understanding of two concepts:

1. Induced Demand:
Basically if you increase in supply of something, it tends to reduce the cost of it, increasing consumption and thus demand. Electric lighting works like this, the amount we spend on lighting hasn't changed enormously, but the amount of lighting we use has massively increased as efficiency improves.

This is very important for cars, adding more roads almost never solves traffic, it merely encourages more people to drive. Adding another lane to a road is almost never the right answer for making traffic flow better.

This applies (sort of*) for cycling infrastructure, by adding more infrastructure, you will increase demand for cycling. Painted lanes don't make much of a difference, protected bike lanes do: https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2220515120
"Cycleways (bicycle paths in own trace) reduce the generalized cost by 20%. On residential and medium roads, bicycle lanes, whether protected or just painted, reduce the cost rate by 14% and 22%, respectively. The type of bicycle lane has a considerable effect on the cost rate for the large roads category: Painted bicycle lanes have only a small and statistically insignificant effect, whereas protected bicycle lanes reduce the cost rate by 34%."


2. Modal shifts:
It's a fancy term for changing from one form of transportation to another. To get people to modal shift, you need to understand what are the barriers to it happening. For cycling, there are a number of obvious ones that act as barriers to adoption:
Weather
Energy Required
Travel Time
Safety

It has major advantages in terms of cost and health over other modes, especially cars. It also imposes far fewer externalities (noise & air pollution, accidents etc...).
But most of those advantages are not immediate.

You can't do much about weather (although my work has covered cycle parts, showers and drying rooms, but that is unusual). eBikes deal with the energy required, which is nice but irrelevant from an infrastructure point of view.

For travel time, you want to shorten cycle travel times as much as possible vs motor vehicles. For safety, you want to separate cyclists as much as possible from motor traffic.
The best implementation of those is segregated cycle paths, especially ones where cycle travel times are shortened vs cars.
Melbourne Road is a decent example of it.
You can also reduce the advantage of taking the car by making car based journeys longer. That usually pisses people off but is also why pedestrianising much, much more of the centre of the city would not be a bad move at all. Lot of cities are effectively banning or making driving through their centres very difficult/expensive, with lots of high quality park & ride as a substitute.
You'd probably be lynched if you tried it in Cork, so probably best avoided for now.

That said, the planned Bus Connects P&R for Cork are probably a precursor to a longer term plan to do exactly that:
Cork-PR.jpg



*It's all about altering travel pattern behaviour, rather than a purely mechanical "build it and they will come", but the end result is similar:
 
I'll ask you again - what benefit is it to go to great expense to put in segregated cycle lanes if they're not being used by cyclists travelling on those roads? Would it not make more sense either to make cycling in cycle lanes mandatory when cycle lanes are provided, or else leave the roadways less restricted so that cyclists have more effective room to give each other sufficient room when passing each other.

Restricting the width of a motor lane in order to facilitate segregated cycle lanes that aren't used much anyway makes little sense from a safety or (less important) economic point of view.
 
Just get rid of segregated cycle lanes and just have a road-use free for all?
1711370677559.png

Cork City centre last Saturday had cycle lanes with families on bikes,electric scooters and electric unicycles in the safe segregated cycle lanes.

You do not see people stuck on cycle lanes as they are effecient and move people through quickly.

Cars have also gotten much bigger thus taking up more space on the roads as well as parking and the costs of both buying and running a car are high.

Offer a secure and safe alternative as well as improving active travel and public transport options thus reducing road traffic, pollution and noise.
 
Restricting the width of a motor lane in order to facilitate segregated cycle lanes that aren't used much anyway makes little sense from a safety or (less important) economic point of view.
Narrower roads and narrower traffic lanes and shared surfaces has been proven to improve safety and reduce traffic speed.

The safe cycle lanes are being used and all infrastructure including roads and cucle lanes etc has future use and demand built into it.
 
Just get rid of segregated cycle lanes and just have a road-use free for all?
View attachment 31171

Cork City centre last Saturday had cycle lanes with families on bikes,electric scooters and electric unicycles in the safe segregated cycle lanes.

You do not see people stuck on cycle lanes as they are effecient and move people through quickly.

Cars have also gotten much bigger thus taking up more space on the roads as well as parking and the costs of both buying and running a car are high.

Offer a secure and safe alternative as well as improving active travel and public transport options thus reducing road traffic, pollution and noise.

Brilliant. So can you tell us why the cyclists and scooterists don't use them?
 
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