Jesus lads, 'tis looking like BREXIT!

You're wrong and no straw clutching or alternative reality pearl clutching changes that.
For goodness sake man....it's right there in Article 46.

/////

ARTICLE 46

1 Any provision of this Constitution may be amended, whether by way of variation, addition, or repeal, in the manner provided by this Article.

2 Every proposal for an amendment of this Constitution shall be initiated in Dáil Éireann as a Bill, and shall upon having been passed or deemed to have been passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas, be submitted by Referendum to the decision of the people in accordance with the law for the time being in force relating to the Referendum.

3 Every such Bill shall be expressed to be "An Act to amend the Constitution".
 
This is where we enter alternative reality syndrome to stave off unity at all costs.

We didn't claim anything. The old articles 2 and 3 were a statement of fact. The national territory is.....pending the reintegration of. .....there was never any legitimacy to the Government of Ireland Act in Ireland like there was never any legitimacy to the British presence in Ireland over centuries.

What we did in 1998 was made a peace agreement acknowledging that you simply cannot deny the existence of 900,000 people planted in Ulster and their wish to be British in perpetuity and they under no circumstances should be forced militarily into a united Ireland through a campaign of unjustifiable terror and murder.

So we changed the territorial statement of fact to a popular statement based on the principle of consent. That's not me seeing what I want to see, it's fact.

The GFA is very clear - if an SoS calls a BP and it passes, both governments must legislate to make that decision a reality.

So a successful BP means unity.

How we provide our democratically expressed acknowledgement of that in my head used to mean a concurrent referendum down here. But the more I read, it seems a motion passed in the Dáil would be enough. I think I'd prefer the referendum. But it is what it is.

Unity is inevitable. The form it takes is what we should be discussing and agreeing now.
Like I said....19 currently says "aspiration to unify"; if that needs changing to "Rep Ire and N Ire are now unified" then it needs a referendum.

You are seeing what you want to see. The law of the land is very clear on this: see Articles 46 and 47. The Dail has absolutely no authority to change the constitution on its own.
 

PROCNA2018

Full Member
For goodness sake man....it's right there in Article 46.

/////

ARTICLE 46

1 Any provision of this Constitution may be amended, whether by way of variation, addition, or repeal, in the manner provided by this Article.

2 Every proposal for an amendment of this Constitution shall be initiated in Dáil Éireann as a Bill, and shall upon having been passed or deemed to have been passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas, be submitted by Referendum to the decision of the people in accordance with the law for the time being in force relating to the Referendum.

3 Every such Bill shall be expressed to be "An Act to amend the Constitution".
For goodness sake man....it's right there in Article 46.

/////

ARTICLE 46

1 Any provision of this Constitution may be amended, whether by way of variation, addition, or repeal, in the manner provided by this Article.

2 Every proposal for an amendment of this Constitution shall be initiated in Dáil Éireann as a Bill, and shall upon having been passed or deemed to have been passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas, be submitted by Referendum to the decision of the people in accordance with the law for the time being in force relating to the Referendum.

3 Every such Bill shall be expressed to be "An Act to amend the Constitution".
I get the GFA was before your time.
We had the referendum to amend the constitution when we had the GFA referendum.

It's done.
 

PROCNA2018

Full Member
Like I said....19 currently says "aspiration for unify"; if that needs changing to "Rep Ire and N Ire are now unified" then it needs a referendum.

You are seeing what you want to see. The law of the land is very clear on this. The Dail has absolutely no authority to change the constitution on its own.
The Dáil has no authority to change the constitution on its own. Absolutely.
The constitution was changed in the GFA referendum.
It's done. Deal with it.
 
The Dáil has no authority to change the constitution on its own. Absolutely.
The constitution was changed in the GFA referendum.
It's done. Deal with it.

You are taking the word "aspiration" and somehow changing it to "legally binding". No idea how you're doing these mental gymnastics...but jeez.

Anyways, I've shown you clearly why you are incorrect. Do with it as you will.
 
Like I said....19 currently says "aspiration to unify"; if that needs changing to "Rep Ire and N Ire are now unified" then it needs a referendum.

You are seeing what you want to see. The law of the land is very clear on this: see Articles 46 and 47. The Dail has absolutely no authority to change the constitution on its own.

Quoting the constitution and then using terms like “rep. Ire,” and “N Ire” would lead me to believe that you have no idea what you are talking about.
 

PROCNA2018

Full Member
You are taking the word "aspiration" and somehow changing it to "legally binding". No idea how you're doing these mental gymnastics...but jeez.

Anyways, I've shown you clearly why you are incorrect. Do with it as you will.
I'll explain it to you.

Do you accept that we held the GFA referendum?
If so, you accept our vote in that referendum made changes to our constitution and fave effect to the GFA.

We voted to accept and implement the GFA.

The GFA says that if the majority of the people in the North or Northern Ireland or the 6 counties , take your pick, vote for unity, both governments must legislate to effect that.

It also says that there should be no external impediment to us on an all island basis exercising our right to self-determination on the basis of consent freely and concurrently given, North and South to bring about a united Ireland.

If you're with me so far and accept the GFA referendum enabled the GFA, we're golden.

Now to date a BP in the North must be called by the SoS when he she believes there may be a majority in favour of change. You accept that right?

In the south my interpretation of freely and concurrently given, has always meant a referendum just to make sure we want unity too.
However, there is no express definition of how we in the 26, Republic of Ireland, free state, take your pick, do that in the GFA whereas it is there for the BP.

With me so far? Excellent.

Now my preference is a referendum.
I don't believe and have posted before on judicial pay and independent inquiries and the Seanad referenda that they were attempts to instill all power in the Dáil expressly against the constitution. All I am saying is that there's nothing in the GFA we implemented in the referendum that says it HAS to be a referendum.

Now let's look at where we are.

You have people saying the GFA should be rewritten for a qualified majority of 60% I.e. a unionist veto. You have the DUP trying to retrofit a unionist veto on everything by keeping Stormont closed on a non devolved matter such that the precedent can be set that for all matters , devolved or not, cross community consent applies, ergo a unionist veto on everything including a BP. Why are these things happening? Because the demographics of the North point inexorably to a nationalist majority and therefore a BP at some point over the next few years. Presuming you're a democrat and abide by the notion of all votes equal and one person one vote, that means a success BP will happen.


Therefore from the referendum we voted for and enacted rhe GFA with we are expected to concurrently, without external impediment , give our consent to unity. Not have a referendum about whether we aspire to it or not. To consent concurrently to unity. The mechanism of doing that is in my opinion best done in a referendum. The GFA says down here it doesn't HAVE to be. But let's be clear we are being asked to consent to unity concurrently after a successful BP. Not a referendum about negating the GFA's applicability to our current jurisdiction because some never want unity at all.

As an aside whether we do it in a referendum or a Dáil vote, in all likelihood unity will require changes to the constitution anyway in terms of national languages, cultural guarantees, copperfastening rights to British citizenship in perpetuity etc etc.
 
I'll explain it to you.

Do you accept that we held the GFA referendum?
If so, you accept our vote in that referendum made changes to our constitution and fave effect to the GFA.

We voted to accept and implement the GFA.

The GFA says that if the majority of the people in the North or Northern Ireland or the 6 counties , take your pick, vote for unity, both governments must legislate to effect that.

It also says that there should be no external impediment to us on an all island basis exercising our right to self-determination on the basis of consent freely and concurrently given, North and South to bring about a united Ireland.

If you're with me so far and accept the GFA referendum enabled the GFA, we're golden.

Now to date a BP in the North must be called by the SoS when he she believes there may be a majority in favour of change. You accept that right?

In the south my interpretation of freely and concurrently given, has always meant a referendum just to make sure we want unity too.
However, there is no express definition of how we in the 26, Republic of Ireland, free state, take your pick, do that in the GFA whereas it is there for the BP.

With me so far? Excellent.

Now my preference is a referendum.
I don't believe and have posted before on judicial pay and independent inquiries and the Seanad referenda that they were attempts to instill all power in the Dáil expressly against the constitution. All I am saying is that there's nothing in the GFA we implemented in the referendum that says it HAS to be a referendum.

Now let's look at where we are.

You have people saying the GFA should be rewritten for a qualified majority of 60% I.e. a unionist veto. You have the DUP trying to retrofit a unionist veto on everything by keeping Stormont closed on a non devolved matter such that the precedent can be set that for all matters , devolved or not, cross community consent applies, ergo a unionist veto on everything including a BP. Why are these things happening? Because the demographics of the North point inexorably to a nationalist majority and therefore a BP at some point over the next few years. Presuming you're a democrat and abide by the notion of all votes equal and one person one vote, that means a success BP will happen.


Therefore from the referendum we voted for and enacted rhe GFA with we are expected to concurrently, without external impediment , give our consent to unity. Not have a referendum about whether we aspire to it or not. To consent concurrently to unity. The mechanism of doing that is in my opinion best done in a referendum. The GFA says down here it doesn't HAVE to be. But let's be clear we are being asked to consent to unity concurrently after a successful BP. Not a referendum about negating the GFA's applicability to our current jurisdiction because some never want unity at all.

As an aside whether we do it in a referendum or a Dáil vote, in all likelihood unity will require changes to the constitution anyway in terms of national languages, cultural guarantees, copperfastening rights to British citizenship in perpetuity etc etc.
Our constitution explicitly says that the name of the country is “Ireland.”
Or Éire as Gaeilge.

The “Republic of Ireland,” is an international soccer team. We aren’t like Scotland where we’re somehow choosing to become independent. We’re preparing to take the rest of our territory back into our country. Unfortunately, English nationalism is currently trying to muddy the waters.
Some potential leader of one of their parties accused Michelle O’Neill of “trying to drive a wedge between “Northern Ireland” and Great Britain.”

They really think that their currently occupied territory on our island will remain British.


😃
 

PROCNA2018

Full Member
Our constitution explicitly says that the name of the country is “Ireland.”
Or Éire as Gaeilge.

The “Republic of Ireland,” is an international soccer team. We aren’t like Scotland where we’re somehow choosing to become independent. We’re preparing to take the rest of our territory back into our country. Unfortunately, English nationalism is currently trying to muddy the waters.
Some potential leader of one of their parties accused Michelle O’Neill of “trying to drive a wedge between “Northern Ireland” and Great Britain.”

They really think that their currently occupied territory on our island will remain British.


😃
I agree with you.
I was simply acknowledging that some don't.
 

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