The winner always writes the History!

[an liathroid beag]

"The year of disappearances" by Gerald Murphy shines a light on the darker side of the war of Independence in Cork. Strange how the written accounts of the most prominent IRA leaders in Cork at the time are strangely silent on these and on the fate of many of the "disappeared"--eerily simililiar to events in the North 60 years later.

 

[Corcaigh32]

Is this another piece of revisionism like Harris' bullshit or a historically accurate previously unknown facts type thing?

 

[an liathroid beag]

Is this another piece of revisionism like Harris' bullshit or a historically accurate previously unknown facts type thing?

A serious amount of research went into this book---previously unknown facts??---a lot of efforts were made to change the records and destroy others ---the principle actor in the saga of the disappeared was a very powerful political figure up to the seventies ---many in east Cork were aware of the killing fields but were afraid to speakof it.

 

[Kappa]

I think the killing of protestants during or around the war of independence deserves as much scholarly attention as it can possibly get, not least in the spirit of reconciliation with Northern Protestants.

The more I've read and learned about the northern protestant view of the Republic the more I see how central this episode is to their whole narrative. They regard the Republic as having tried to purge the South of protestants in order to create an 'ethnically pure' state. This belief, held falsely or otherwise, has been the bedrock of a large body of northern opinion that protestants are not safe under a majority catholic administration.

As much as anyone, I hate seeing this issue co-opted into a neo-right denunciation of everything about the Irish struggle for self-determination, but I don't think these fringe figures should lead us to make the massive mistake of not fully exploring this issue. We know protestants left the new state in droves and many of them were intimidated into doing so. We also know, a lot of protestant civilians were killed.

I don't want to see this country's historical narrative perverted by crass lies about how our independence was attained. Do we want to be like Israel where blatant lies are flogged as history or do we want to fully acknowledge our real history.

All the people who did these things are dead. None of us are responsible for whatever crimes were committed. If however we lend ourselves to dismissing legitimate research on what is a hugely significant matter for a large minority on this island, then we do have something to feel guilty about.

 

[strict66]

I think the killing of protestants during or around the war of independence deserves as much scholarly attention as it can possibly get, not least in the spirit of reconciliation with Northern Protestants.

The more I've read and learned about the northern protestant view of the Republic the more I see how central this episode is to their whole narrative. They regard the Republic as having tried to purge the South of protestants in order to create an 'ethnically pure' state. This belief, held falsely or otherwise, has been the bedrock of a large body of northern opinion that protestants are not safe under a majority catholic administration.

As much as anyone, I hate seeing this issue co-opted into a neo-right denunciation of everything about the Irish struggle for self-determination, but I don't think these fringe figures should lead us to make the massive mistake of not fully exploring this issue. We know protestants left the new state in droves and many of them were intimidated into doing so. We also know, a lot of protestant civilians were killed.

I don't want to see this country's historical narrative perverted by crass lies about how our independence was attained. Do we want to be like Israel where blatant lies are flogged as history or do we want to fully acknowledge our real history.

All the people who did these things are dead. None of us are responsible for whatever crimes were committed. If however we lend ourselves to dismissing legitimate research on what is a hugely significant matter for a large minority on this island, then we do have something to feel guilty about.

Very true this is one of the many gray areas of Irish history that has always interested me too. Irish history is very guilty of cherry picking and quick to ignore some glaring hypocrisies.

The other terrible crime of Irish history or more importantly as it's told by many is how what is established as the truth is really a combination of black propaganda, hearsay, barstool myth and long since revised history. Of course some actual historical fact is there too but it's lost amongst the bull.

Protestant culture be it in context to turbulent or peaceful times is very much in need of revision and re examination with the view to being more accurately presented both historically and in the present . The Polarized view that real Irish is defined as Catholic/Celtic and that when Protestant is used it automatically indicates either a direct or strong British link is not exclusively true. Indeed the belief by some that protestant culture here is a singular thread is again incorrect. The same applies to Catholic although in reverse although less obviously.

Me personally I feel books like this and their revelations within belong with sadly other events in Irish life such as the recent church scandals in a chapter of Irish history that is being written as we speak.
Generations to come will view books like this are part of a library of works. They will be viewed in the context of their time. This chapter will describe another major turning point in Ireland's history when finally we confronted our past with more educated and worldly eyes and learned our history is as checkered as everybody else's.

The Famine will no longer be wrongfully called a genocide , instead it will take it's sad place amongst many other global famines that were caused by a natural disaster and where exasperated by an apathetic and inept political insitutions.

British Rule and Irish oppression will be seen not as a singular slight that started with the Norman invasion and went on for another 800yrs. It is at times contradictory , complex and by no means all exclusively the same problem if you will.

More importantly it will illustrate that the history and ethnic make up of this country like every other country is complex and diverse. A map will show them that Ireland is a small country next to what was historically a Super power. If they keep on looking for small countries on the map that neighbor big historically powerful countries they will find the same story.

From that hopefully our history will be assimilated into a broader European history and then world history . Hopefully who ever is reading it will think thankfully that's in the past and none of that matter now. Nations and nationalism whoever thought that was a good idea

 

[jd26]

We know protestants left the new state in droves and many of them were intimidated into doing so. We also know, a lot of protestant civilians were killed.

I'll speak on this as someone who had three protestant grandparents and only one catholic one, even if I was raised a catholic.

I think the effects of these killings are overstated when explaining the decline of protestant numbers in Ireland.

The reasons for the decline in Protestant numbers were many.

The number 1 reason was the British withdrawal. This meant a lot of soldiers and to a lesser extent civil servants leaving Ireland. This is the main reason why Cork (the Naval Base) and Kildare (Curragh Camp) appear to have suffered from particularly severe declines.

Then there was the Ne Temere decree. Almost every child of a mixed marriage was brought up as a catholic. As I mentioned earlier, I was raised as a catholic, despite having considerably more Protestant heritage.

Another big reason was World War I. While this had a devestating effect on the entire country, it was particularly harsh on the Protestant community. There is an estimate that 1 in every 2 Protestant males born in what is now the 26 countries between 1890 and 1900 was killed in that war. What that left was a generation of women of whom a large number either didn't marry (no kids) or married a catholic (kids raised as catholics).

Finally, there was the general effect of emigration. The country's population as a whole declined for the first 40 years of existence of the state. However, as the Protestant birth rate was lower, the Protestant community declined more slowly.

While I'm sure there were some Protestants who left between 1921 and 1924 because they felt that they wouldn't be welcome in a "catholic" state, I fear that the importance of these numbers are overstated for Unionist political purposes.

 

[Crayons O'Neil]

A serious amount of research went into this book---previously unknown facts??---a lot of efforts were made to change the records and destroy others ---the principle actor in the saga of the disappeared was a very powerful political figure up to the seventies ---many in east Cork were aware of the killing fields but were afraid to speakof it.

Where are these ''killing fields''?

 

[Some user]

Interesting posts all round. Jd26's analysis is thorough.

And now the forum knows that he is 75% protestant.

 

[strict66]

How it escapes the notice of so many fervent nationalists that so many of our more esteemed patriots are protestant is never lost on me either.

 

[frankeechops]

I don't think the questions of ones religious affiliation entered peoples mind when the war was ongoing. However, When someone had the bright idea of using it to get back at the neighbours over Generations old feuds the problem arrised. The complete lack of a Protestant working class in the Vast majority of the country can't have helped, As those with money were more than likely to get out while the going was good.

I went looking for this book on Amazon there, The review, and I use that word loosely, might interest some people.