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  #11  
Old 08-09-2017, 08:21 PM
Matlock Matlock is offline
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Originally Posted by Roxetten View Post
Niamh Horan has made similar observations in the past so is she a tosser aswell?

Some people would prefer to live in the comfort of denial than face up to the realities of the world. But it’s time to start a conversation.


Niamh Horan is frequently a tosser but that is neither here nor there. The issue I have with what Hook (and Horan) say is that they start from the position that the person entirely responsible for the rape is the rapist and then go all to claim that not withstanding that the victim has to take some blame. That isn't logical. If the blame lays with the rapist, then the behaviour of the victim is immaterial.
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  #12  
Old 08-09-2017, 08:23 PM
King Silkbeard King Silkbeard is offline
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There is no blame on the girl. Zero.

Likewise there is no blame on the innocent person who wonders in to the wrong Glasgow pub and gets stabbed to death.

I think that was the point he was trying to make in his own way. The world is a dangerous place, and we all need to be aware of the potential dangers.

That never means we are even partly responsible for bad stuff that other people do.

Just accept the world has some strange weird people and we need to keep ourselves and each other as safe as we can.
Exactly.
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  #13  
Old 08-09-2017, 08:28 PM
Donald Trump Donald Trump is offline
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  #14  
Old 08-09-2017, 08:34 PM
CaptainSensible CaptainSensible is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Matlock View Post
Niamh Horan is frequently a tosser but that is neither here nor there. The issue I have with what Hook (and Horan) say is that they start from the position that the person entirely responsible for the rape is the rapist and then go all to claim that not withstanding that the victim has to take some blame. That isn't logical. If the blame lays with the rapist, then the behaviour of the victim is immaterial.
I don't think they are saying the victim has to take some blame for the actual rape but instead must take some small blame for being the person who was raped i.e by putting themselves in a vulnerable position. There is a subtle difference.
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Old 08-09-2017, 08:46 PM
Roxetten Roxetten is offline
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Originally Posted by Matlock View Post
Niamh Horan is frequently a tosser but that is neither here nor there. The issue I have with what Hook (and Horan) say is that they start from the position that the person entirely responsible for the rape is the rapist and then go all to claim that not withstanding that the victim has to take some blame. That isn't logical. If the blame lays with the rapist, then the behaviour of the victim is immaterial.
I see Niamh Horan's point as being that the person going on a night out shouldn't abdicate responsibility to for their own safety and should always keep their wits about them, she is also accepting the reality that there are people out there who will take advantage of a person made vulnerable by over consumption of alcohol. If I was a parent of grown up children making their way onto the pub scene I would advise them on a night out not to totally over do it with alcohol to the point of (for example) blacking out and I expect that other parents would do likewise.

So it's not so much about blaming victims as trying to pass on parental knowledge as to what a jungle it can be out there, what's the point of gaining experience of life if you can't pass in on to your children?

I think people are afraid of voicing opinions on such matters as over indulging in alcohol for fear of being regarded as prudish but the fact is that getting paralytic from booze can get you in to all sorts of bother aswell as being extremely harmful to the body over time.
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  #16  
Old 08-09-2017, 08:59 PM
Matlock Matlock is offline
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Originally Posted by Roxetten View Post
I see Niamh Horan's point as being that the person going on a night out shouldn't abdicate responsibility to for their own safety and should always keep their wits about them, she is also accepting the reality that there are people out there who will take advantage of a person made vulnerable by over consumption of alcohol. If I was a parent of grown up children making their way onto the pub scene I would advise them on a night out not to totally over do it with alcohol to the point of (for example) blacking out and I expect that other parents would do likewise.

So it's not so much about blaming victims as trying to pass on parental knowledge as to what a jungle it can be out there, what's the point of gaining experience of life if you can't pass in on to your children?

I think people are afraid of voicing opinions on such matters as over indulging in alcohol for fear of being regarded as prudish but the fact is that getting paralytic from booze can get you in to all sorts of bother aswell as being extremely harmful to the body over time.
All of those warnings can be given without ascribing blame to rape victims though.
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  #17  
Old 08-09-2017, 09:05 PM
playwide playwide is offline
 
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Originally Posted by captainsensible View Post
i don't think they are saying the victim has to take some blame for the actual rape but instead must take some small blame for being the person who was raped i.e by putting themselves in a vulnerable position. There is a subtle difference.
+1
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  #18  
Old 08-09-2017, 09:17 PM
CaptainSensible CaptainSensible is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Matlock View Post
All of those warnings can be given without ascribing blame to rape victims though.
No it is impossible to warn someone about the potential dangers of an action if you can't mention the danger in question, which seems to be the way you want it to be.
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  #19  
Old 08-09-2017, 09:19 PM
Donald Trump Donald Trump is offline
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Originally Posted by CaptainSensible View Post
I don't think they are saying the victim has to take some blame for the actual rape but instead must take some small blame for being the person who was raped i.e by putting themselves in a vulnerable position. There is a subtle difference.
Every time I get into a car, I put myself in a vulnerable position. Am I to take some small bit of blame, if some speeding lunatic crashes into me?
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  #20  
Old 08-09-2017, 09:22 PM
Matlock Matlock is offline
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No it is impossible to warn someone about the potential dangers of an action if you can't mention the danger in question, which seems to be the way you want it to be.
Not at all, you can say something like

"If someone rapes you then it is their fault, absolutely unequivocally 100% their fault. They and they alone are responsible for the rape. If you are drunk and/or drugged you may be less able to fight someone off or less able to identify them in a police lineup so unfortunately you need to be aware of those possibilities when you are on a night out"
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