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  #11  
Old 08-09-2008, 12:09 PM
Proinsias Proinsias is offline
 
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Originally Posted by TastesLikeChicken View Post
Not quite what I meant. Any Comp-Sci course worth its salt should be teaching programming patterns and practices using a proper long-trousered language. If any graduates of said course come up against a requirement to use VB for something then they can pick it up over a lunch break having had a decent grounding in the theory.

Besides, VB macros are only used on Windows platforms..
Guess what every oscilloscope, spectrum analyser, pattern generator, logic analyser and radio test bed runs these days?

Yup, XP.

All the macros are in VB and they're not that easy, TBH. Can be pretty complicated systems.
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  #12  
Old 08-09-2008, 12:38 PM
TastesLikeChicken TastesLikeChicken is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Proinsias View Post
Guess what every oscilloscope, spectrum analyser, pattern generator, logic analyser and radio test bed runs these days?

Yup, XP.

All the macros are in VB and they're not that easy, TBH. Can be pretty complicated systems.
Well, I wouldn't have enough experience of those systems to know, however, just because the macros are complicated, does not make the language itself complicated. Learning VB will not present an issue to anyone with a decent grounding software development with a decent language. It is very easy to skill down to VB, not so easy to skill up to another more complex language.

This isn't my opinion, it's a pretty much accepted fact in the Comp-Sci community.
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  #13  
Old 08-09-2008, 01:04 PM
Proinsias Proinsias is offline
 
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Originally Posted by TastesLikeChicken View Post
Well, I wouldn't have enough experience of those systems to know, however, just because the macros are complicated, does not make the language itself complicated. Learning VB will not present an issue to anyone with a decent grounding software development with a decent language. It is very easy to skill down to VB, not so easy to skill up to another more complex language.

This isn't my opinion, it's a pretty much accepted fact in the Comp-Sci community.
Tis a crap language, but it's what's used. IIRC, they ran the London Stock Exchange on PASCAL until a few years back and my brother was still programming in FORTRAN until a couple of years back.

Hell, I did my final year project in college using assembly.

So dismissing VB as a simple programming language kinda misses the point. It also ignores all the dedicated functions that various systems have for VB (some that the suppliers charge thousands of dollars for) but no matter.

Incidentally, I have no idea what the support for VB is on OSX
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  #14  
Old 08-09-2008, 01:22 PM
TastesLikeChicken TastesLikeChicken is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Proinsias View Post
Tis a crap language, but it's what's used. IIRC, they ran the London Stock Exchange on PASCAL until a few years back and my brother was still programming in FORTRAN until a couple of years back.

Hell, I did my final year project in college using assembly.

So dismissing VB as a simple programming language kinda misses the point. It also ignores all the dedicated functions that various systems have for VB (some that the suppliers charge thousands of dollars for) but no matter.

Incidentally, I have no idea what the support for VB is on OSX
Pfffffft, the London Stock Exchange was never run on PASCAL, never ever ever ever ever. Some of the interfaces to the stock price prediction programs were written in Delphi which does have a pascal like syntax.

Fortran is an incredibly useful language for writing complex mathematical code heavily optimised to a particular platform which is still in widespread use.

So, I'm not sure how either of the above examples preclude me from "dismissing" VB as a simple programming language. I never dismissed VB, I'm sure it's a tremendously useful little language in its niche. All I said is that it shouldn't be taught in college. They syntax of the language is simple enough that if you teach someone the fundamentals of programming practice (sequence, selection, iteration) then VB will be picked up easily.

With reference to your above example however, PASCAL is an excellent language for teaching computer programming in. It adheres to all of the fundamental principles.

Incidentally, there is zero support for VB on OS-X - even Microsoft have not included VBA (which is actually what you have been referring to when saying VB) support in their office suite for OS-X, given that VBA support is being phased out completely by MS to be replaced by .NET.
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  #15  
Old 08-09-2008, 01:37 PM
Proinsias Proinsias is offline
 
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Originally Posted by TastesLikeChicken View Post
Pfffffft, the London Stock Exchange was never run on PASCAL, never ever ever ever ever. Some of the interfaces to the stock price prediction programs were written in Delphi which does have a pascal like syntax.
Must have just been either bad reporting or bad recollection, there was a story about them upgrading from an ancient system.
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Originally Posted by TastesLikeChicken View Post
Fortran is an incredibly useful language for writing complex mathematical code heavily optimised to a particular platform which is still in widespread use.

So, I'm not sure how either of the above examples preclude me from "dismissing" VB as a simple programming language. I never dismissed VB, I'm sure it's a tremendously useful little language in its niche. All I said is that it shouldn't be taught in college. They syntax of the language is simple enough that if you teach someone the fundamentals of programming practice (sequence, selection, iteration) then VB will be picked up easily.
Well, it's been more useful in my professional life than the C/C++ that was taught. Not saying they shouldn't have been done either, incidentally.
Would be no harm at all doing a course in it in commerce and business courses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TastesLikeChicken View Post
With reference to your above example however, PASCAL is an excellent language for teaching computer programming in. It adheres to all of the fundamental principles.

Incidentally, there is zero support for VB on OS-X - even Microsoft have not included VBA (which is actually what you have been referring to when saying VB) support in their office suite for OS-X, given that VBA support is being phased out completely by MS to be replaced by .NET.
These things have a nasty habit of hanging around for a very long time.

Which is why I was using a Windows 3.11 machine a couple of years back in one of the labs in one of my former employers just so that I could run a particular piece of software.

Anyway, IIRC, PR Feen is an engineer and for control of instrumentation in labs, visual basic macros are a major part still. That won't change for a good while either as the companies won't want to stump up for the cost of changing as there's no need, they work perfectly well.
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  #16  
Old 08-09-2008, 02:10 PM
TastesLikeChicken TastesLikeChicken is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Proinsias View Post
These things have a nasty habit of hanging around for a very long time.

Which is why I was using a Windows 3.11 machine a couple of years back in one of the labs in one of my former employers just so that I could run a particular piece of software.
Yeah true I guess, especially in the hardware industry.

I take your other points but they still don't change my mind I'm afraid
Especially given that C/C++ have been bread & butter to me for all of my professional life.
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  #17  
Old 10-09-2008, 05:11 PM
the puerto rican feen the puerto rican feen is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Proinsias View Post
Best of luck writing macros for any form of equipment without VB. I wish my course had done it.


PR Feen, Macs are utterly useless for CAD of any professional standard. Linux can be good but it's too much work.

I don't know what you're looking to do with it but in my industry (and in engineering in general) there's basically zero support for OSX. The programs are complicated enough without dicking around with another OS.

If you're willing to get a second license to dual boot with a windows environment, that might be a good idea but full price apple hardware is now really quite expensive for what you get, they've gotten a good bit less competitive over the past 2 years. If you can find someone working in Apple, their discount can make it worth it.

Don't be fooled by people who go on about their reliability, My Apple products have had the worst hardware reliability of anything I've owned and it took them 6 weeks to fix a CD stuck in the CD drive. It costs a fortune to get a 3 year warranty so I'd say that another brand with a 3 year warranty would be essentially just as reliable. Besides, now that they use generic components, there's not a massive difference if you spend equivalent money on an alternative brand.

Just looking now at what you'd be looking at for the same price in the UK, for a 160gb macbook with a 2.4GHz processor, you'd get:
2.6ghz samsung with twice the RAM, twice the hard drive
2.1ghz toshiba with 17 inch screen, twice the ram and over twice the hard drive
2.4GHz dell with twice the ram, twice the hard drive and their 4 year support is still 20% cheaper than the Apple 3 year support.

I like OSX but if you're going to be running Windows anyway, tis kinda pointless. Certainly if you're doing any form of engineering, OSX is useless for professional work.
The exception rather than the rule, I was more interested in the student you wants to write reports, presentations, do tables, surf the internet for porn etc., that OSX would be a competitor in this area.

And for the engineering types, it is difficult enough to get some of the software in college, nevermind be allowed to install it on your own laptop.
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  #18  
Old 10-09-2008, 05:17 PM
watermelon watermelon is offline
 
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Originally Posted by TastesLikeChicken View Post
Well, I wouldn't have enough experience of those systems to know, however, just because the macros are complicated, does not make the language itself complicated. Learning VB will not present an issue to anyone with a decent grounding software development with a decent language. It is very easy to skill down to VB, not so easy to skill up to another more complex language.

This isn't my opinion, it's a pretty much accepted fact in the Comp-Sci community.
Frankie listen to the man.

If you have one language then you can pick up others pretty easily.
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  #19  
Old 10-09-2008, 05:59 PM
TastesLikeChicken TastesLikeChicken is offline
 
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Originally Posted by watermelon View Post
Frankie listen to the man.

If you have one language then you can pick up others pretty easily.
Totally. But not if that language is VB
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  #20  
Old 11-09-2008, 06:44 AM
Proinsias Proinsias is offline
 
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Originally Posted by watermelon View Post
Frankie listen to the man.

If you have one language then you can pick up others pretty easily.
Wasn't disputing that.
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Originally Posted by the puerto rican feen View Post
The exception rather than the rule, I was more interested in the student you wants to write reports, presentations, do tables, surf the internet for porn etc., that OSX would be a competitor in this area.

And for the engineering types, it is difficult enough to get some of the software in college, nevermind be allowed to install it on your own laptop.
Aye, license for the CAD I'm running is close on €50k a license a year, no wonder they don't allow it out.
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