Woman murdered in Tullamore..

[Roxetten]

Women feel threatened by us and looking over your shoulder and feeling ill at ease out for a walk or a run or walking home on your own at night shouldn't be the norm or acceptable.

The vast majority of Irish men represent no threat to women when they are out walking on their own at night.

 

[knockfiarna]

The vast majority of Irish men represent no threat to women when they are out walking on their own at night.

I'm in agreement with you. Just to reiterate that's not something im disputing but i do know from my own sisters , wife , daughter and female friends that women in general feel less at ease than men when walking the streets and its the fear of the unknown ie what could happen to them. I just think men in general can do better , maybe less of the
" ah its only the lads having a bit of crack" culture and a little bit more awareness of how vulnerable some wome feel, simple things I do when walking behind a single girl at night , crossing the street and walking on the other side etc .

 

[jimmym]

I'm in agreement with you. Just to reiterate that's not something im disputing but i do know from my own sisters , wife , daughter and female friends that women in general feel less at ease than men when walking the streets and its the fear of the unknown ie what could happen to them. I just think men in general can do better , maybe less of the
" ah its only the lads having a bit of crack" culture and a little bit more awareness of how vulnerable some wome feel, simple things I do when walking behind a single girl at night , crossing the street and walking on the other side etc .

I agree with your points but what annoyed so many was the fact as soon as it was known the murderer was a foreigner the narrative changed,
We had white knights telling us we irish men need to do so much better in the immediate aftermath of the murder,

 

[Matlock]

As a man I didnt feel that way in fairness.
There were some over zealous people who always go overboard and proclaim this and that on social media etc but the basic message remains and its one really I guess that us men dont really get fully just because we are men. Women feel threatened by us and looking over your shoulder and feeling ill at ease out for a walk or a run or walking home on your own at night shouldn't be the norm or acceptable.

This 100%

I agree with your points but what annoyed so many was the fact as soon as it was known the murderer was a foreigner the narrative changed,
We had white knights telling us we irish men need to do so much better in the immediate aftermath of the murder,

Generally not white knights. It was generally women saying that every single one of us has been put in fear by a man at some stage. While walking, while running, while a work etc etc etc.

Not that all men do this, but that all women experience it.

And yes, I know that men also experience fear of violence. That fear comes (overwhelmingly) from other men though, so it is still a male violence problem.

The narrative changed because when his nationality was released lots and lots of Irish men changed it to "see, we did nothing wrong, this is a foreigner issue". Which isn't true, it's still a male issue.

It is both true that this perpetrator was a foreign national, and that the majority of Irish men are not a danger to women and also that Irish men need to do better. It doesn't have to be one or another.

Also, there was an outpouring from Irish women post this murder about the level of fear that we live in every day. I cannot see how men decided that it was reasonable to prioritise their hurt feelings over what women were saying to them. There is a pretty big difference between those two things in terms of importance like.

 

[TheOutdoorThreadmill]

The narrative changed because when his nationality was released lots and lots of Irish men changed it to "see, we did nothing wrong, this is a foreigner issue". Which isn't true, it's still a male issue.

So Irish men are responsible for the likes of RTE, Virgin, Newstalk etc going silent on the issue when the nationality was made known?

 

[Happyhonkaman]

I'm in agreement with you. Just to reiterate that's not something im disputing but i do know from my own sisters , wife , daughter and female friends that women in general feel less at ease than men when walking the streets and its the fear of the unknown ie what could happen to them. I just think men in general can do better , maybe less of the
" ah its only the lads having a bit of crack" culture and a little bit more awareness of how vulnerable some wome feel, simple things I do when walking behind a single girl at night , crossing the street and walking on the other side etc .

Knock, I come from a household where chivalry was insisted upon, and my own youngfella equally will open the front door and stand back to let the girls in, but there is a point at which it is debatable what can actually be done in practical terms to improve this. I imagine the fear women have when walking alone is primarily based on the fact that a male will almost certainly overpower them if the situation arose, and secondly there are numerous instances of it happening every year so it is real and certainly not imaginary. However, switching sides of the road is valiant and everything, but is it really achieving much, and does it really make women feel any safer? The vast majority of Irish boys are brought up by their parents to respect women and not to attack women, or anyone else for that matter - As a parent I didn't need anyone to tell me this, and I cant imagine many would since all men have a mother and most will have sisters, wives, female friends etc etc. I am fairly certain that none of my friends or family would attack a woman. The Irish men need to talk to your boys stuff was fairly patronising for most, my wife disagreed with it profusely at the time and still would. I would imagine that in most cases where a woman has been attacked and sexually assaulted there are some mental issues at play? Glad to be corrected if thats not the case.

My own missus goes walking alone in the evenings so its dark at the moment, I'd prefer if she didn't and went with a friend or neighbour but she tends to take the opportunity as it arises so planning ahead doesn't always happen. In that case all she can really do to protect herself is walk somewhere well lit, and ideally where others will be walking. Both of those measures are going to be significantly more effective than men crossing the road when they approach her. I dont think she should wear headphones as it is one of the senses removed but thats her call. The lady that was knocked down by a van that mounted the running path intentionally and mowed down a few years back was a friends wife. My wife still walks there regularly, its just one of those tragic things that happened for some reason that has never come to light, no amount of people switching paths or whatever will make her feel more or less safe.

When Im running and encounter a woman or women up ahead I tend to start a bit of a cough to try give a signal that someone is behind them and generally I'll leave the pavement and run on the road passing them unless there are cars obviously. When it is dark I would have flashing lights on my running bib so they might get a flicker of those approaching, but darting across the road with traffic and back again just seems pointless

 

[Matlock]

So Irish men are responsible for the likes of RTE, Virgin, Newstalk etc going silent on the issue when the nationality was made known?

No, because that didn't happen.

Irish men are responsible for pretending that the news cycle moving on, as it naturally does, was some kind of conspiracy against them though!

 

[Crusty Ring]

This 100%

Generally not white knights. It was generally women saying that every single one of us has been put in fear by a man at some stage. While walking, while running, while a work etc etc etc.

Not that all men do this, but that all women experience it.

And yes, I know that men also experience fear of violence. That fear comes (overwhelmingly) from other men though, so it is still a male violence problem.

The narrative changed because when his nationality was released lots and lots of Irish men changed it to "see, we did nothing wrong, this is a foreigner issue". Which isn't true, it's still a male issue.

It is both true that this perpetrator was a foreign national, and that the majority of Irish men are not a danger to women and also that Irish men need to do better. It doesn't have to be one or another.

Also, there was an outpouring from Irish women post this murder about the level of fear that we live in every day. I cannot see how men decided that it was reasonable to prioritise their hurt feelings over what women were saying to them. There is a pretty big difference between those two things in terms of importance like.

I don't dispute the fact that women feel unsafe alot particularly when in exposed positions like out for a walk/run at night, in fact I know it to be true as women who are close to me have told me so and given me examples.

In relation to "Irish men need to do better", what does this actually look like for those of us that aren't a danger to women or anyone else for that matter? I see this phrase thrown around regularly without any context!

I often walk my dogs very early in the morning or late at night as they are big dogs I like to let off the lead to run/play and prefer to do so when there isn't that many people and other dogs around, I often encounter women who are walking/running and try to give them as wide a berth as possible to ensure they aren't intimated by my presence however most are friendly and say hello or stop to pet my dogs.

I accept there are many more dangers out there for women than men but outside of respecting peoples space which should be common courtesy afforded to everyone (men & women) how exactly do I need to do better?

 

[TheOutdoorThreadmill]

No, because that didn't happen.

Ah stop, we were bombarded with media specials across radio and TV which died a death when the nationality was made know. Obviously you disagree as it suits your narrative but that is a fact, it did happen.

 

[Matlock]

Knock, I come from a household where chivalry was insisted upon, and my own youngfella equally will open the front door and stand back to let the girls in, but there is a point at which it is debatable what can actually be done in practical terms to improve this. I imagine the fear women have when walking alone is primarily based on the fact that a male will almost certainly overpower them if the situation arose, and secondly there are numerous instances of it happening every year so it is real and certainly not imaginary. However, switching sides of the road is valiant and everything, but is it really achieving much, and does it really make women feel any safer? The vast majority of Irish boys are brought up by their parents to respect women and not to attack women, or anyone else for that matter - As a parent I didn't need anyone to tell me this, and I cant imagine many would since all men have a mother and most will have sisters, wives, female friends etc etc. I am fairly certain that none of my friends or family would attack a woman. The Irish men need to talk to your boys stuff was fairly patronising for most, my wife disagreed with it profusely at the time and still would. I would imagine that in most cases where a woman has been attacked and sexually assaulted there are some mental issues at play? Glad to be corrected if thats not the case.

My own missus goes walking alone in the evenings so its dark at the moment, I'd prefer if she didn't and went with a friend or neighbour but she tends to take the opportunity as it arises so planning ahead doesn't always happen. In that case all she can really do to protect herself is walk somewhere well lit, and ideally where others will be walking. Both of those measures are going to be significantly more effective than men crossing the road when they approach her. I dont think she should wear headphones as it is one of the senses removed but thats her call. The lady that was knocked down by a van that mounted the running path intentionally and mowed down a few years back was a friends wife. My wife still walks there regularly, its just one of those tragic things that happened for some reason that has never come to light, no amount of people switching paths or whatever will make her feel more or less safe.

When Im running and encounter a women or women up ahead I tend to start a bit of a cough to try give a signal that someone is behind them and generally I'll leave the pavement and run on the road passing them unless there are cars obviously. When it is dark I would have flashing lights on my running bib so they might get a flicker of those approaching, but darting across the road with traffic and back again just seems pointless

I think you are making the mistake of assuming that because you don't personally do anything wrong and you are fairly certain that none of your family and friends would do anything wrong, that wrong things aren't happening.

Statistically though, you are likely to know at least one man who has abused a woman. There are just too many abused women for that not to be the case.