Welcome Palestine

[Yermon]

National self-determination is a principle for peoples/nations, not "religions" as abstract sets of beliefs. Not a demand that every faith get a theocracy.

Pakistan was explicitly created as a homeland for the Muslims of British India.

The point is that Jews were uniquely denied it for centuries. The historical record is not a cartoon of "drive out the natives then bomb and expand".

Every nation state in the region—(and most elsewhere)—has borders shaped by war, migration, and demographic change. Selective outrage that treats only the Jewish case as uniquely illegitimate is the tell for antisemites.


If the standard is "no people whose state formation involved conflict, displacement, or later military action against neighbors gets self-determination," almost no modern country qualifies.

Pakistan was carved out again by the British to separate two warring religious factions within the old collonial "India" - it wasn't a case of transporting Muslims from around the world and depositing them in a new land to try compensate them for the atrocity they'd suffered at the hands of another imperial power. Imperial powers leaving death and destruction in their wake - whoda thunk it.

And by the way, as far as I know, Muslims from around the world can't just rock up to Pakistan, or indeed Hindus from around the world rock up to India, and demand that the locals who've been there for many hundreds of years be driven out and/or killed.


You're not comparing like with like and well you know it.

 

[Crusty Ring]

I have no need to read my own post Crusty. Maybe you should read it again to show that you aren't a "psuedo superior", dismissive poster.
What I've been trying to get across, for anyone who hasn't understood, is that the incidents of anti-semetism in Ireland, while nasty, can in no way be compared to what innocent Palestinians are suffering at the hands of the current murderous Israeli govt and the Zionist land grabbers. Surely any fair- minded person can see and understand this.
If I were talking to a Jew tomorrow, I'd give my honest opinion without any vulgar language or insults Crusty ok!

I think you've taken me up completely wrong here to be honest, at no point was I in any way dismissive towards you and I'll stand by that.

Lets leave it at that.

 

[Yermon]

No.

Antisemitism directed at Irish Jews is not “directly linked” to anything the Israeli government does in Gaza in a way that excuses or explains it as rational.

It is the classic application of collective guilt to an entire people for the policies of a foreign government they do not control, vote in, or represent.

No better than the discrimination experienced by Irish people who lived in the UK because of the actions of the IRA.

Or discrimination against muslims in the wake of atrocities like 9-11
Or against those US citizens of Japanese descent living in the US in WWII where many were interned in their own country


It's deplorable, but it is alas part of the human condition. It doesn't help when people here try to conflate Israel with Judaism.

 

[Colonel Lee Fields]

Pakistan was carved out again by the British to separate two warring religious factions within the old collonial "India" - it wasn't a case of transporting Muslims from around the world and depositing them in a new land to try compensate them for the atrocity they'd suffered at the hands of another imperial power. Imperial powers leaving death and destruction in their wake - whoda thunk it.

And by the way, as far as I know, Muslims from around the world can't just rock up to Pakistan, or indeed Hindus from around the world rock up to India, and demand that the locals who've been there for many hundreds of years be driven out and/or killed.


You're not comparing like with like and well you know it.

The comparison is closer than you claim, and the differences do not erase the underlying principle of national self-determination for a people.

Pakistan was not a spontaneous British gift to “separate two warring factions.” It was the direct result of the Muslim League’s political demand, led by Jinnah, for a sovereign Muslim-majority state because Muslims in British India feared permanent minority status under Hindu-majority rule.

Both cases involved a people seeking self-determination in a territory with historical and demographic claims, under a withdrawing imperial power .

Both produced refugee crises and violence when the other side rejected the partition or the new state’s legitimacy.


Ethnic or religious preferential citizenship is common; the claim that only Israel’s version is illegitimate is selective.

If the test for legitimate nationhood is “no preferential immigration for the core group and no population displacement during founding,” almost no post-colonial or post-imperial state passes. Ireland included in that.



You can criticise Israeli policies, the conduct of the 1948 war, or later expansions without denying that Jews, like Muslims in 1947 India, were a people seeking a sovereign framework after prolonged minority vulnerability and mass violence.

 

[Crusty Ring]

I'll read the rest of it so. I'd just read your claim that they were suffering "absolute hell" on a thread that's been about Palestine and saw red given the completely disgusting treatment of Palestinians by Israel.

You can try paint me as an antisemite all you like but I'm not, never have been, and never would be. All religions, as long as they respect the rights of others which I believe the vast majority of the major ones do, are fine by me, as is agnosticism and paganism and everything peaceful in between.

Live and let live.




Edit: I've read the rest of your post and you say your Jewish friend is being spat upon and is feeling she has to leave the country as a result. That's absolutely disgraceful. Nobody could condone that treatment. It absolutely shouldn't happen and she should report such assaults to the gardai.

It's usually best practice to read the full post before launching into an angry response that you ultimately have to go back on to admit you didn't read the post properly.

Every day is a school day

 

[Crusty Ring]

Jesus suffering Christ!
The anti-semetism in Ireland at the moment is directly linked to the Israeli barbarity in Gaza.
It's hardly fucking rocket science is it!

Can you not see why that is the problem Lee?

Do you hold all jewish people across the globe responsible for the Israeli barbarity in Gaza?

 

[Yermon]

SNIP

You can criticise Israeli policies, the conduct of the 1948 war, or later expansions without denying that Jews, like Muslims in 1947 India, were a people seeking a sovereign framework after prolonged minority vulnerability and mass violence.

Unlike in Pakistan/India, there was no prolonged minority vulnerability and mass violence in 1947. Muslims, Jews, and Christians had lived in relative harmony there for centuries under the Ottomans. The violence kicked off after the British (them again) decided they wanted to exert more control over there once the Ottomans had been defeated in WWI, and even then it was nothing like the carnage that was going on in India as the brits were withdrawing having raped the place.


Now spare us your Zionist rhetoric of trying to equate Pakistan/India to the Israel/Palestine situation - it's bonkers and you know it

 

[Dr. Aaoouh]

The comparison is closer than you claim, and the differences do not erase the underlying principle of national self-determination for a people.

Pakistan was not a spontaneous British gift to “separate two warring factions.” It was the direct result of the Muslim League’s political demand, led by Jinnah, for a sovereign Muslim-majority state because Muslims in British India feared permanent minority status under Hindu-majority rule.

Both cases involved a people seeking self-determination in a territory with historical and demographic claims, under a withdrawing imperial power .

Both produced refugee crises and violence when the other side rejected the partition or the new state’s legitimacy.


Ethnic or religious preferential citizenship is common; the claim that only Israel’s version is illegitimate is selective.

If the test for legitimate nationhood is “no preferential immigration for the core group and no population displacement during founding,” almost no post-colonial or post-imperial state passes. Ireland included in that.



You can criticise Israeli policies, the conduct of the 1948 war, or later expansions without denying that Jews, like Muslims in 1947 India, were a people seeking a sovereign framework after prolonged minority vulnerability and mass violence.

Mister “All Politicians Lie” tells us that all countries steal land.

Never change.

 

[Yermon]

It's usually best practice to read the full post before launching into an angry response that you ultimately have to go back on to admit you didn't read the post properly.

Every day is a school day

I did say I saw red when I saw your OTT "absolute hell" remark and responded to it

 

[Colonel Lee Fields]

Unlike in Pakistan/India, there was no prolonged minority vulnerability and mass violence in 1947. Muslims, Jews, and Christians had lived in relative harmony there for centuries under the Ottomans. The violence kicked off after the British (them again) decided they wanted to exert more control over there once the Ottomans had been defeated in WWI, and even then it was nothing like the carnage that was going on in India as the brits were withdrawing having raped the place.


Now spare us your Zionist rhetoric of trying to equate Pakistan/India to the Israel/Palestine situation - it's bonkers and you know it

Your idealized picture of Ottoman Palestine and the minimization of pre-1948 violence does not hold.

It was not free of periodic tensions, discriminatory practices, or outbreaks of violence. Blood libels, local riots, and discriminatory enforcement occurred at various points


The 1947 Partition of India produced 1–2 million deaths and 10–15 million displaced in a matter of months, with widespread mutual massacres, train massacres, and ethnic cleansing across Punjab and Bengal. Absolute and relative scale (given population sizes) was vastly greater.

British colonial mismanagement bears responsibility in both cases for contradictory promises and abrupt exits. But local agency, competing national movements, and the specific historical trajectories of each region matter more than a single external villain.

The historical record is messier than simple narratives of pure pre-British harmony