Was Michael Collins right?

[Jim Comic]

apparently the 'ra were the first to use tommy guns in action

https://www.historyireland.com/20th...OLvyCJQDEl2KUemusAxgmzWzhmyz6WMc2O0W7JAmDbyx0

 

[Duffs]

apparently the 'ra were the first to use tommy guns in action

https://www.historyireland.com/20th...OLvyCJQDEl2KUemusAxgmzWzhmyz6WMc2O0W7JAmDbyx0

And "Machine Gun Marty" was the last SF/IRA man to use one.

McGuinness 'said he sparked Bloody Sunday'

Sinn Fein MP Martin McGuinness admitted he was the IRA gunman who sparked Bloody Sunday with a single shot, according to an informer, the Saville inquiry was told yesterday.
Christopher Clarke QC, counsel for the inquiry into the 1972 killings, revealed three security force documents detailing an informer's claims on Mr McGuinness's role in Londonderry at the time, and pleaded with him to give evidence at the inquiry. He has so far refused to offer a statement.

Mr McGuinness, minister for education in the short-lived power-sharing executive at Stormont, yesterday labelled the informer's allegations "a pathetic fabrication", a British military ploy to divert attention from the Parachute Regiment's killing of 14 civilians.

Sinn Fein said Mr McGuinness would welcome the opportunity to give evidence, although only last week he said he wanted to wait and see if Lord Saville's inquiry was a genuine attempt to get at the truth. He said then: "I have never hidden my past from anyone."



Mr Clarke, on the eighth day of his opening statement, disclosed a confidential document on the debriefing on an IRA informer, code-named Infliction. It was dated April 6, 1984. The crucial passage read: "Martin McGuinness had admitted to Infliction that he personally fired the shot from a Thompson sub-machine gun from Rossville Flats that precipitated the Bloody Sunday episode."

A classified message of May 15, 1984, sent to the RUC, Northern Ireland Office and the British embassy in Dublin, read: "Speaking in confidence, a leading member of the Provisional IRA who no longer has access to the organisation commented that Martin McGuinness personally fired the shot (from a Thompson machine gun on 'single shot') from Rossville flats in Bogside that precipitated the Bloody Sunday episode."

Another document said: "At the time of Bloody Sunday 30 January 1972, McGuinness was a senior member if not OC (officer commanding) of Londonderry PIRA. Although we have no collateral for the above report (the Infliction claim) there is intelligence that McGuinness was actively inolved in PIRA attacks in the city shortly after Bloody Sunday."

Paratroopers shot dead 13 unarmed Catholics, seven of them teenagers, during an illegal anti-internment march in Derry on January 30, 1972. A man who was wounded died five months later.

 

[High Post]

Unfortunately for Collins he was a solider sent over by an American diplomat who used him as a scapegoat.

More unfortunate still was the American sold the rest of us out to the RCC.

 

[Róisín_Rua]

98 years ago today since 6 IRA prisoners were executed by Firing Squad:-

http://irishvolunteers.org/cork-county-gaol-ira-volunteers-executed-memorial/

 

[flyingspud]

Unfortunately for Collins he was a solider sent over by an American diplomat who used him as a scapegoat.

More unfortunate still was the American sold the rest of us out to the RCC.

What makes you think that Collins would have been some great Anti Catholic church force?
Mick was a good Catholic boy who said his rosary like most everyone else at the time. The Irish people through their mindless devotion collectively sold themselves out. Blaming Dev is just a cop out.

 

[High Post]

What makes you think that Collins would have been some great Anti Catholic church force?
Mick was a good Catholic boy who said his rosary like most everyone else at the time. The Irish people through their mindless devotion collectively sold themselves out. Blaming Dev is just a cop out.

He gave them a special place in the constitution.

That's enough for me.

 

[The High King]

Unfortunately for Collins he was a solider sent over by an American diplomat who used him as a scapegoat.

More unfortunate still was the American sold the rest of us out to the RCC.

That's wrong on multiple levels. Collins was far from a soldier. He was a great organiser and a top intelligence operator and an early proponent of urban terroisim but his soldier credentials were very quickly splatered along with the entire back of his skull all over a roadside in west cork.

He may have been manipulated to go to London in one sense but he also very much liked being in power and revelled in it. If we are going on about him being manipulated it would be more accurate to describe his time whoring, drinking and all night socialising with undercover British operatives in London during negotiations.

As for Dev being American, well he probably has more of a claim to being a Spaniard.

To paint it all as Dev vs Collins is over simplistic. Dev was sidelined pretty quickly in the civil war.

The Brits had handed over the running of the country e.g. schools and health service etc long ago to the RC church as a means of placating and controlling the people.

Of course we forgot anything negative about Collins because he was killed at the height of his youth and power before he had a chance to get into bed with industry and the church but that's what would have happened

 

[High Post]

That's wrong on multiple levels. Collins was far from a soldier. He was a great organiser and a top intelligence operator and an early proponent of urban terroisim but his soldier credentials were very quickly splatered along with the entire back of his skull all over a roadside in west cork.

He may have been manipulated to go to London in one sense but he also very much liked being in power and revelled in it. If we are going on about him being manipulated it would be more accurate to describe his time whoring, drinking and all night socialising with undercover British operatives in London during negotiations.

As for Dev being American, well he probably has more of a claim to being a Spaniard.

To paint it all as Dev vs Collins is over simplistic. Dev was sidelined pretty quickly in the civil war.

The Brits had handed over the running of the country e.g. schools and health service etc long ago to the RC church as a means of placating and controlling the people.

Of course we forgot anything negative about Collins because he was killed at the height of his youth and power before he had a chance to get into bed with industry and the church but that's what would have happened

One of those great what if moments in Irish history. My own view is that we as a nation would have been a lot better off if it was Dev who's brains had been splattered across some darkened room and he was r moved form Irish history. Collins got the best and only deal which was available at the time.

I'm curious as to where you have this story about Collins out drinking all night in London? Any links?

 

[ColCork]

One of those great what if moments in Irish history. My own view is that we as a nation would have been a lot better off if it was Dev who's brains had been splattered across some darkened room and he was r moved form Irish history. Collins got the best and only deal which was available at the time.

I'm curious as to where you have this story about Collins out drinking all night in London? Any links?

Fully agree with sentiments on Dev.

Collins may have been bsexual or homosexual and had a playful nature (enjoyed wrestling and touchibg men) but given that he essentially had to act as an undercover agent in his own country for years relying on caution, tradecraft and discipline i doubt that we would have carried on like that in london.

Indeed such was his caution that a plane was kept ready at an airfield outside london in case he had to flee.

 

[The High King]

One of those great what if moments in Irish history. My own view is that we as a nation would have been a lot better off if it was Dev who's brains had been splattered across some darkened room and he was r moved form Irish history. Collins got the best and only deal which was available at the time.

I'm curious as to where you have this story about Collins out drinking all night in London? Any links?

https://amp.independent.ie/irish-...-of-the-treaty-by-sean-macbride-25964043.html
Several others but too lazy to dig.

Dev was barely involved in the civil war. It was a choice between Collins or Lynch and Lynch had very little time for Dev. It was 10 years before Dev got back into power and he only reflected the general pro R.C mood of the nation.