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The Official Liverpool Thread - Part 2

The only thing I took from last night's game is such is his knowledge is why none of the big clubs came after Ronnir Whelan
Ronnie was a great player but I can never understand how the likes of himself thinks "he's got to score there" every time a player has the remotest opportunity.

Is the concussion that bad that he forgets he missed the vast majority of his chances?
 
To begin with, did you actually watch all of the match up until Wirtz got subbed?

He battled hard.

He cost 115 million.

He showed quality on the ball.

When? He made 19 passes. He lost possession 10 times and was hooked after 78 minutes.

I remember one very good lob pass to Frimpong. Thats it. I might have missed one or two bits. But we're not talking about a lot are we?

We are not talking about an amazing performance, full agree. My point was that it was odd to single him out when (in my view)

- he was one of a small few players who (along with the keeper, Gomez & VVD...maybe Szob) put in a decent performance on the night.
- the system/approach was set up in a way that really wasn't conducive to him (or any attacking player) impressing in the final third

He was one of 4 players "hooked" after 78 minutes primarily to introduce some fresh legs to try to limit further damage in the last ~15mins. Not because he was underperforming.

If you want to look for evidence in the stats that he did alright it is there to be found - most tackles (either team), 2nd most ground duels won (either team), most successful dribbles (either team), highest sofascore rating (LFC players only) etc. - even on a night when Liverpool were playing like a lower league team in a cup tie.

But that aside, the eye test was enough for anyone paying attention. Because of the stone age tactics he received precious little passes, but when the ball did get to him he did pretty well given he typically had 2 or 3 guys around him and usually only had 1 option (Ekitike) to link with. More than anyone else (in red) he had some moderate degree of success in making the ball stick when it was punted up, was able to get free of his markers a fair few time & linked the play well. On the rare occassions where Liverpool built something resembling a cohesive passing move he was inevitably central to that.

Not a vintage performance, but given the wider context it's not the night to be having a go at him.

I have little doubt if Liverpool solve the bigger issues elsewhere in the side Wirtz will go from strength to strength. Get pace & willing runners around him and he'll be more than fine.

Just like those who have decided, with little evidence, that the keeper isn't up to it. I can live with the occassional clearance into touch when he pulls off a lot of smart saves like he did last night. He's not at peak Alisson level, but who is? For me he's done alright so far. A decent platform to push on from next season.

He was mostly anonymous against City too.

He's done nothing so far to justify the sky high fee that was paid for him.

He does show some skills some times I'll give you that. But again, 115 million.

I also agree that he hasn't "justified the fee" yet. But he's a 22 year old and the fee wasn't paid on the basis of his output in his first PL season.

He's shown that he has bags of ability, work-rate and a good attitude...which is a start.

But for now he's playing in a fundamentally broken team. Until that changes there's a ceiling on how effective Wirtz will be.

Remember the stick Pogba got? He had a far better first season than Wirtz.

If I'm honest I don't recall whether or not Pogba got a huge amount of criticism in his first season. But I'll take your word for it as you keep bringing it up.

My rough memory of it was that he did ok initially, then had at least one very good season mid-way through (incl. a couple of goals against City when Utd fought back from 2-0 down to beat them 3-2) but the last few seasons went very badly in terms of poor performances, low availability & general friction between him and fans/management.
 
Great players make things happen. They make the players around them better.

Some fellas, even in a team that's being shite for years, still manage to score goals and provide plenty of assists, and create bundles of chances.
 
To begin with, did you actually watch all of the match up until Wirtz got subbed?



We are not talking about an amazing performance, full agree. My point was that it was odd to single him out when (in my view)

- he was one of a small few players who (along with the keeper, Gomez & VVD...maybe Szob) put in a decent performance on the night.
- the system/approach was set up in a way that really wasn't conducive to him (or any attacking player) impressing in the final third

He was one of 4 players "hooked" after 78 minutes primarily to introduce some fresh legs to try to limit further damage in the last ~15mins. Not because he was underperforming.

If you want to look for evidence in the stats that he did alright it is there to be found - most tackles (either team), 2nd most ground duels won (either team), most successful dribbles (either team), highest sofascore rating (LFC players only) etc. - even on a night when Liverpool were playing like a lower league team in a cup tie.

But that aside, the eye test was enough for anyone paying attention. Because of the stone age tactics he received precious little passes, but when the ball did get to him he did pretty well given he typically had 2 or 3 guys around him and usually only had 1 option (Ekitike) to link with. More than anyone else (in red) he had some moderate degree of success in making the ball stick when it was punted up, was able to get free of his markers a fair few time & linked the play well. On the rare occassions where Liverpool built something resembling a cohesive passing move he was inevitably central to that.

Not a vintage performance, but given the wider context it's not the night to be having a go at him.

I have little doubt if Liverpool solve the bigger issues elsewhere in the side Wirtz will go from strength to strength. Get pace & willing runners around him and he'll be more than fine.

Just like those who have decided, with little evidence, that the keeper isn't up to it. I can live with the occassional clearance into touch when he pulls off a lot of smart saves like he did last night. He's not at peak Alisson level, but who is? For me he's done alright so far. A decent platform to push on from next season.



I also agree that he hasn't "justified the fee" yet. But he's a 22 year old and the fee wasn't paid on the basis of his output in his first PL season.

He's shown that he has bags of ability, work-rate and a good attitude...which is a start.

But for now he's playing in a fundamentally broken team. Until that changes there's a ceiling on how effective Wirtz will be.



If I'm honest I don't recall whether or not Pogba got a huge amount of criticism in his first season. But I'll take your word for it as you keep bringing it up.

My rough memory of it was that he did ok initially, then had at least one very good season mid-way through (incl. a couple of goals against City when Utd fought back from 2-0 down to beat them 3-2) but the last few seasons went very badly in terms of poor performances, low availability & general friction between him and fans/management.
Are ya related to wirtz or what like?
You’ve no doubt he’ll come good, I’ll put it to ya he’ll go down as the worst Liverpool buy ever.
 
He is, and Phil might be right. He may come good in time.

But he's been pretty shit so far.

Both those things can be true.
Sure, but the comment above about the worst buy ever is ridiculous. Nothing definitive can be said at this point.

He's been underwhelming, but there is time to improve, both himself individually and, more importantly, the environment around him, which has to be fairly rotten at the moment, with a dead manager walking and a cranky superstar on the way out the door, just a couple of issues among others.
 
Liverpool have some serious problems elsewhere mind.

In defence they're absolutely woeful and need two centre halves. Gravenberch has regressed a lot this season and McAlister too.

So reinforcements are required right through the spine of that team.

Another 450 million should do it.
Liverpool need a DM and 2 wingers with buckets of speed and durability. The biggest issue with not everyone is talking about right now is we have a non existent press. Teams play through it at ease and the rest of the team becomes completely exposed as a result of it. Ekitike has shown us he has an abundance of talent but he is a complete liability when it comes to pressing. He does everything without the ball so half hearted. Everything always looks way worse than it is when the press is non existent.

That said, MacAllister’s legs are almost fully gone which is mental for someone still quite young. Gravenberch is a bit soft but he can still become a big player a CM rather than DM. He doesn’t have the discipline or defensive know-how to be a DM across the rest of his career.

Van Dijk’s legs are waning too but he’s also being tasked with having to do so much more than he used to under Klopp, whose side has a super effective press. He isn’t the player he was but that was such a high level that he can still be massively useful even dropping his levels a bit. But he will need to be replaced in the next two years for certain.

We are brutal at the moment but a manager getting the most out of the players would be a start. A few additions with speed/legs would improve the lot more than people think.
 
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