The Official Irish Rugby Thread 19/20.

How bad boy

Full Member
How badly is this policy needed? Can't imagine it's a major question for too many people right now and it would very much depend on the individual.

Also, it's "May ban".

I don't think this is an area where blanket bans are particularly useful, and from the article, it looks like there is at least some consideration of the individual. Ideally, there'd be something like a weight limit, but if that's fat rather than muscle, a 100kg fat transgender person is likely to hit a lot less hard than a fit 80kg experienced female player.

I've played in mixed sex teams before (mostly in Germany), once played inside centre where my outside centre was a Dutch international, about 5 inches shorter and a good 20 kg lighter but a significantly better rugby player.

It's not like mismatches in rugby are unusual...

river
 

DennyMac

Full Member
Trans Equality Together

Comprising of;
TENI, BeLonG To and LGBT Ireland, Amnesty International Ireland, Bród West Cork, Free Legal Advice Centres (FLAC), GCN, Intersex Ireland, the Irish Council for Civil Liberties, the Irish Network Against Racism, the National Women’s Council, Outhouse, and Trans Limerick Community.

Have slammed the IRFU's decision

View attachment 14018




How's about they stfu and allow the IRFU to ensure the safety of their female players.

It won't be TET on the hook for legal damages should a female player be injured by a far stronger trans opponent.

The usual shower of virtue signalling twats who have as much interest in Rugby as the dog wading in.

Well done to the IRFU in being one organisation that won't be intimidated by nutcase trans 'activists'.
As a women's rugby fan, have you noticed this becoming a big issue?
 

How bad boy

Full Member
All through Covid "follow the science".

This issue: "no, follow this alternative science"..
You know that gender isn't that simple? Firstly that a lot of the boundaries between sexes are social, rather than biological differences, and secondly, even the biological boundaries aren't massively clear sometimes, e.g. males with XX chromosomes, people with XXY chromosomes, girls with only one X chromosome:
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/

Those conditions tend to be relatively rate (e.g. males with XX chromosomes is at a rate of only 1:20,000), but they absolutely do happen, to pretend they don't is very much ignoring the science.

And of course, scientifically speaking, male and female humans are remarkably similar in the animal world.

The but "men are bigger than women" thing isn't even fully consistent (e.g. my mother in law is 6ft tall). The average Dutch woman is 5'6, the average Filipino Man is 5'4. Why the enormous difference? Mostly sociological and local environmental, the average South Korean is almost 6 inches taller than 100 years ago and are on track to be taller than the average American in the next 30 years or so if current trends continue. Ugandans are getting shorter at a fairly rapid clip.


It's all about "on average", but there's a massive range. One Samoan I used to play with was 6'6, 21 stone and was the fasted player on our team. Certainly wouldn't want to put him up against 99.9% of women, but I'd say 99% of men would struggle to stop that magnificent bastard in full flow too. He flattened me many, many times.

There are freakishly large, strong and fast women, as there are with men. I'm not sure how many fit, strong transsexuals are looking to play women's rugby at a decent level, the drug therapies tend to not be great for your health, but I can't imagine it's a particularly large number. hence why simplistic rules based on supposed assertions of science are frequently a mess.

This area is a minefield and gender is a much, much more fluid concept for folks in their teens today vs even folks 20 years older than them. It very much reminds me of the rampant homophobia pre-90s. I suspect it'll end up in the same place in 20 years time where people end up saying "Yeah, fuck it, whatever, call yourself what you like".

With all that said, that too low a barrier an entry to women's rugby is undeniably a problem. Saying "This week, I'm a woman and therefore in the women's team" is definitely something that needs to have some level of controls around. Just don't know how common a problem it is. Nor am I particularly certain that hard and fast rules help much with right now if it's not a common occurrence.
 
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You know that gender isn't that simple? Firstly that a lot of the boundaries between sexes are social, rather than biological differences, and secondly, even the biological boundaries aren't massively clear sometimes, e.g. males with XX chromosomes, people with XXY chromosomes, girls with only one X chromosome:
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/

Those conditions tend to be relatively rate (e.g. males with XX chromosomes is at a rate of only 1:20,000), but they absolutely do happen, to pretend they don't is very much ignoring the science.

And of course, scientifically speaking, male and female humans are remarkably similar in the animal world.

The but "men are bigger than women" thing isn't even fully consistent (e.g. my mother in law is 6ft tall). The average Dutch woman is 5'6, the average Filipino Man is 5'4. Why the enormous difference? Mostly sociological and local environmental, the average South Korean is almost 6 inches taller than 100 years ago and are on track to be taller than the average American in the next 30 years or so if current trends continue. Ugandans are getting shorter at a fairly rapid clip.


It's all about "on average", but there's a massive range. One Samoan I used to play with was 6'6, 21 stone and was the fasted player on our team. Certainly wouldn't want to put him up against 99.9% of women, but I'd say 99% of men would struggle to stop that magnificent bastard in full flow too. He flattened me many, many times.

There are freakishly large, strong and fast women, as there are with men. I'm not sure how many fit, strong transsexuals are looking to play women's rugby at a decent level, the drug therapies tend to not be great for your health, but I can't imagine it's a particularly large number. hence why simplistic rules based on supposed assertions of science are frequently a mess.

This area is a minefield and gender is a much, much more fluid concept for folks in their teens today vs even folks 20 years older than them. It very much reminds me of the rampant homophobia pre-90s. I suspect it'll end up in the same place in 20 years time where people end up saying "Yeah, fuck it, whatever, call yourself what you like".

With all that said, that too low a barrier an entry to women's rugby is undeniably a problem. Saying "This week, I'm a woman and therefore in the women's team" is definitely something that needs to have some level of controls around. Just don't know how common a problem it is. Nor am I particularly certain that hard and fast rules help much with right now if it's not a common occurrence.
A fair bit of that sounds plausible, but given what I know (and I'm definitely not an expert), I'm inclined to think that trans women should not be allowed to play women's rugby. The relevant points aren't really to do with average size but with the average performance gains that males get by undergoing puberty. This seems to be the single biggest factor in explaining why, across a wide range of sports, the top male performers are routinely well ahead of the top female performers (where performances are directly comparable). Ross Tucker (Saffer sports scientist, has a podcast called Real Science of Sport) is imo very persuasive on this. Afair he was more or less agnostic on this issue until fairly recently, but he cites recent studies which show that male gains in puberty across a wide variety of measures are not levelled out by testosterone suppression. So basically a biological male who has been through puberty will have a big advantage over your average female competitor in a whole host of ways which are relevant to rugby.

I agree that the problem might not be a big one in terms of numbers, but I think the principle is important as well. Women's sports are in general a protected category. Just as there would be a problem if, say, a small number of twenty-eight-year-old club hurlers could be somehow eligibile to play minor for Cork, there is a problem if someone from the non-protected group (in this case, men) can participate in the protected category.

Edit: here's a good discussion on Tucker's podcast https://podcasts.apple.com/za/podca...aten-fairness-in/id1461719225?i=1000522515770
 

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