The Kerry Babies Case

[Matlock]

Aren't juries verdicts ultimately just based on what they believe though?

Proof isn't always black and white or straightforward.
Are people not often convicted on circumstancial evidence?
Or is that more of an American phenomenon?
Genuine questions btw.
I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to the law and court cases etc.. (which I guess in one way is something to be glad of).

To quote every law professor I ever had " circumstantial evidence is evidence!"

There is an element of belief. For example, if two witnesses give conflicting statements then the jury have to decide which they find more credible.

The problem in this case, as I see it, may be that while it seems obvious that these people either killed baby John or know who did, it may be difficult to find evidence ( circumstantial or otherwise ) to back it up.

 

[SoundMan]

To quote every law professor I ever had " circumstantial evidence is evidence!"

There is an element of belief. For example, if two witnesses give conflicting statements then the jury have to decide which they find more credible.

The problem in this case, as I see it, may be that while it seems obvious that these people either killed baby John or know who did, it may be difficult to find evidence ( circumstantial or otherwise ) to back it up.

Surely the timeline is against any reasonable doubt that the one or both were unaware they could be the parents of Baby John? It may only be circumstantial evidence but the circumstances at the time were such that it was ALL OVER the news. It was a cause celebre at the time throughout the country - never mind just in south kerry. That either of two adults wouldn't have heard that a 5 day old baby was found dead on a nearby beach, known that their own baby was no longer around, and didn't join the dots stretches credibility beyond breaking imho.

 

[doppellanger]

I'd find it hard to imagine that not saying anything to the guards at the time would qualify as perversion of justice, as people have a right to silence and to not incriminate themselves.

There are some restrictions on that, but these were mostly introduced later. E.g. Criminal Justice Bill sections 18 and 19 came in later in 1984.

 

[Matlock]

Surely the timeline is against any reasonable doubt that the one or both were unaware they could be the parents of Baby John? It may only be circumstantial evidence but the circumstances at the time were such that it was ALL OVER the news. It was a cause celebre at the time throughout the country - never mind just in south kerry. That either of two adults wouldn't have heard that a 5 day old baby was found dead on a nearby beach, known that their own baby was no longer around, and didn't join the dots stretches credibility beyond breaking imho.

I think it is possible that they will say that they were told by someone (auntie Mary lets say) that she would take the baby at birth and have it adopted by a childless couple in Galway. Though they were aware of the discovery of baby John, they didn't connect it to their baby, which had been adopted. Or they did connect it and they asked auntie Mary who reassured them that their baby was definitely alive and happy out in Galway.

They had no reason not to believe auntie Mary and they didn't want to tell anyone of the birth so they said nothing.

Auntie Mary is now (most conveniently) dead.

You might think that stretches credibility, but if they were to stick to such a story, and in the absence of any other evidence, a verdict beyond reasonable doubt could be a tough one.

 

[jams]

I think it is possible that they will say that they were told by someone (auntie Mary lets say) that she would take the baby at birth and have it adopted by a childless couple in Galway. Though they were aware of the discovery of baby John, they didn't connect it to their baby, which had been adopted. Or they did connect it and they asked auntie Mary who reassured them that their baby was definitely alive and happy out in Galway.

They had no reason not to believe auntie Mary and they didn't want to tell anyone of the birth so they said nothing.

Auntie Mary is now (most conveniently) dead.

You might think that stretches credibility, but if they were to stick to such a story, and in the absence of any other evidence, a verdict beyond reasonable doubt could be a tough one.

Mary always had a mean streak in her tbf.

 

[Matlock]

Mary always had a mean streak in her tbf.

She was a vicious oul bitch.

Little known fact, "The River Saile" was actually written about her.

 

[Chara021]

The whole ' Aunty Mary' scenario is what I said earlier in this thread. Pretty much a plausible story imho. The River Saile connection not so much lol....but quite very apt.

 

[SoundMan]

I think it is possible that they will say that they were told by someone (auntie Mary lets say) that she would take the baby at birth and have it adopted by a childless couple in Galway. Though they were aware of the discovery of baby John, they didn't connect it to their baby, which had been adopted. Or they did connect it and they asked auntie Mary who reassured them that their baby was definitely alive and happy out in Galway.

They had no reason not to believe auntie Mary and they didn't want to tell anyone of the birth so they said nothing.

Auntie Mary is now (most conveniently) dead.

You might think that stretches credibility, but if they were to stick to such a story, and in the absence of any other evidence, a verdict beyond reasonable doubt could be a tough one.

It's one of a number of plausible scenarios certainly. But surely the DPP doesn't have to weigh up whether or not one story is absolutely conclusively proven or not. Is it not judged on the "beyond reasonable doubt" by 12 jurors bar?

I think it'd be interesting to hear if they're going to try blame someone who is (conveniently) deceased though. It can't just be left in limbo given the lengths the state previously went to on the case. Somebody at the very least known to the two killed Baby John - though admittedly they now could claim/pretend (delete as appropriate) that they didn't know that at the time.

 

[Matlock]

It's one of a number of plausible scenarios certainly. But surely the DPP doesn't have to weigh up whether or not one story is absolutely conclusively proven or not. Is it not judged on the "beyond reasonable doubt" by 12 jurors bar?

I think it'd be interesting to hear if they're going to try blame someone who is (conveniently) deceased though. It can't just be left in limbo given the lengths the state previously went to on the case. Somebody at the very least known to the two killed Baby John - though admittedly they now could claim/pretend (delete as appropriate) that they didn't know that at the time.

The DPP has to be satisfied that there is sufficient evidence to prosecute, otherwise its a waste of public time and money, and unfair to the defendant.

They can't make it ' beyond a reasonable doubt' because they don't know the defence argument in advance, but they do have to have a high degree of confidence in their evidence.

 

[El Guapo]

She was a vicious oul bitch.

Little known fact, "The River Saile" was actually written about her.

That song is fierce interesting for such a fuckin grim ditty

It's at least 400 years old and has versons from Germany to USA via Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales.

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