Ireland’s National Infrastructure

[jeepers]

To be fair to Collison I didn't realise he was involved in a group trying to push this on here. I started reading the article thinking we were getting a lecture from a guy simply because he had the profile to give us one, and then realised that he has a lot to say and there is a fair but to digest there also. His point about governance is absolutely spot on but you cannot have it both ways, and what he is proposing goes against how modern society has developed where everyone has a voice, no one can be offended, and all decisions should be for everyone on the face of them at least. His points about Haughey are spot on, he absolutely was visionary in certain respects but with that power to deliver quickly and without distraction came the corruption that accompanied it.

I work with government agencies every day of the week, the ability for them to make a decision is all but gone. For all of the hand wringing that accompanied the Leinster House bike shed, the knock on effect has been catastrophic and is detrimental in the bigger sense. Amplify that significantly for any national scale project, and add the public procurement element into everything and you get a sense of why nothing can get done anymore. What it has become is a quagmire of bureaucracy that simply leads to the lowest tender being the winner in the vast majority of situations, quality and value have been sidelined.

I had a discussion with a judge recently regarding the judicial review process, he could not see my point at all since all he saw was the legal aspect and everything must be correct down to documents being torn apart for minor inaccuracies when they were never designed or written to be. You now have barristers reviewing planning permission before they are put into the system, and with that comes extra time, money and ultimately higher purchase prices.. but thats what it now takes because of the public stake. We own that, its what people are insisting on

One thing is for certain.. regardless of whether Collison is correct or not, the public service is not able to make the decisions they need to, and it is stocked high with semi-competent pen pushers who have no idea what a days work looks like any more, but theres any amount of box ticking to be checked to make sure the people on the other side are the cheapest

Your point about the judge is well made, and that's the exact same thought process that drives the primary professional objector in the country.

Collison himself I could take or leave. He's a bit too neoliberal for my liking. And I don't think I've ever heard anything as stupid as him dismissing the climate crisis as just a technical problem, with a technical solution and it was just a matter of focusing on it.

 

[Happyhonkaman]

Your point about the judge is well made, and that's the exact same thought process that drives the primary professional objector in the country.

Collison himself I could take or leave. He's a bit too neoliberal for my liking. And I don't think I've ever heard anything as stupid as him dismissing the climate crisis as just a technical problem, with a technical solution and it was just a matter of focusing on it.

Yep

The Marlet large scale apartment development in St Annes is a prime example of this. Despite me saying that we have to accept increased densification I am absolutely against that proposal as it would be built on grounds that are part of the greater park area there. If we are going to increase densities then the absolute last thing we should be doing is building on or reducing parks that now become more important than ever as amenity spaces, especially given the latest housing standards issued by govt allowing for reductions in private and public open spaces within developments. It is not that simple because nothing ever is, and the grounds are technically part of a school rather than the park but that is to ignore that they were gifted to the school on the basis that they be used as playing pitches. It is also not accurate to say that they are part of the school and not the park since those pitches are in use 7 days a week between the school and the local clubs

In my opinion the planners should simply refuse the permission on the basis that St Annes is a critical piece of green infrastructure for the city, that is used intensely 7 days a week by the community and others, so reduction of the green area there is not happening under any circumstances, but at the same time they should be permitting high density development all around the park since the area has the established infrastructure to support those new homes/apts

None of the above is the reason that scheme has not got planning yet - the Brent Goose, and their flight path is. I'd say the majority of objectors and people behind the successful judicial review couldn't have described a Brent Goose to you but they knew they didn't want housing there so this was the avenue to pursue

Right ruling for the wrong reasons, the planning system has been gamed by the legal eagles (not geese)


Its up for one last pass with ABP soon again, if it fails that is the proposal dead in the water until the site is rezoned under some development plan in the future which I would say its highly unlikely as the councillors would be committing harakiri

 

[Happyhonkaman]

Yep

The Marlet large scale apartment development in St Annes is a prime example of this. Despite me saying that we have to accept increased densification I am absolutely against that proposal as it would be built on grounds that are part of the greater park area there. If we are going to increase densities then the absolute last thing we should be doing is building on or reducing parks that now become more important than ever as amenity spaces, especially given the latest housing standards issued by govt allowing for reductions in private and public open spaces within developments. It is not that simple because nothing ever is, and the grounds are technically part of a school rather than the park but that is to ignore that they were gifted to the school on the basis that they be used as playing pitches. It is also not accurate to say that they are part of the school and not the park since those pitches are in use 7 days a week between the school and the local clubs

In my opinion the planners should simply refuse the permission on the basis that St Annes is a critical piece of green infrastructure for the city, that is used intensely 7 days a week by the community and others, so reduction of the green area there is not happening under any circumstances, but at the same time they should be permitting high density development all around the park since the area has the established infrastructure to support those new homes/apts

None of the above is the reason that scheme has not got planning yet - the Brent Goose, and their flight path is. I'd say the majority of objectors and people behind the successful judicial review couldn't have described a Brent Goose to you but they knew they didn't want housing there so this was the avenue to pursue

Right ruling for the wrong reasons, the planning system has been gamed by the legal eagles (not geese)


Its up for one last pass with ABP soon again, if it fails that is the proposal dead in the water until the site is rezoned under some development plan in the future which I would say its highly unlikely as the councillors would be committing harakiri

Final ruling from ABP today, game over for any development there.. delighted, like I said, right decision for the wrong reasons

The friends of the Brent Goose society will be overjoyed that their commitment to the conservation of wildlife has triumphed


Concerns for the fate of the Light Bellied Brent Goose has helped put paid to plans for a 580 unit apartment scheme for a site near St Anne’s Park in Raheny, Dublin.

This follows An Coimisiún Pleanála (ACP) refusing planning permission to Patrick Crean’s Marlet Group in long-running battle over plans for the site.


The decision by ACP upholds a refusal issued by Dublin City Council in October 2022 and the case was before ACP on appeal by Marlet Group subsidiary, Raheny 3 Ltd Partnership.

 

[Henrys Fonda]

The Port of Cork Ringaskiddy expansion has stopped (about 30% complete) because the 10 year planning expired. Ward and Burke are the main contractor.

 

[Yermon]

Councillors (including government party members) don’t decide planning applications. That’s done by the planners. The councillors role is in setting the Development Plan and zoning policies, which determine density limits long before a specific planning application is lodged.

I was responding to the post with the article highlighting

Plans for almost 20 new apartments refused by Cork City Council ​

 

[Yermon]

I hear you but judging from the report on the radio the locals were never going to accept this. The meeting was organised by the fella who wants to build it.

Elsewhere on social media I saw a TD advising people how to object to a development in their area and giving them exactly what ‘concerns’ to highlight.

Far too many people in this country are backwards and narrow minded.

And even if the locals did accept it, what’s to stop some greener in Dalky or East Galway objecting?

Imho people objecting to such infrastructure need to be either from that electoral area, or within a number of miles of the location.

There was a lady on Morning Ireland this morning saying that in terms of infrastructure this country is lagging woefully behind and she says it’s been the case for the last 10 or 15 years

Houses, Roads, Rail, Electricity, Water. Our governments over the last 10/15 years have woefully underinvested even when there were huge surpluses

 

[Hallbopping]

And even if the locals did accept it, what’s to stop some greener in Dalky or East Galway objecting?

Imho people objecting to such infrastructure need to be either from that electoral area, or within a number of miles of the location.

There was a lady on Morning Ireland this morning saying that in terms of infrastructure this country is lagging woefully behind and she says it’s been the case for the last 10 or 15 years

Houses, Roads, Rail, Electricity, Water. Our governments over the last 10/15 years have woefully underinvested even when there were huge surpluses

I totally agree with you. Too many people are objecting who have no interest or are not affected by the proposed development.

I don’t envy the Minister and Government but they need to buck up big time and address these problems.

 

[Yermon]

Neither of those two are infrastructure related though. Happy to discuss it elsewhere but the passenger cap is idiotic. Dublin Airport has the infrastructure for more passengers.

What is idiotic was putting in place the infrastructure drawing such huge amounts of passengers to a single airport and the resulting snarlups on the road infrastructures to feed it.
It would have been far better to distribute the travel closer to where people live and improve their flight connections.
The centralisation of everything to Dublin has that place absolutely creaking under its own weight

Oh how can we get more water into Dublin to sustain the housing growth plans there? Why not move some infrastructure out to where land is cheaper, water more freely available, and road, rail, electricity easier to funnel.

Oh that’s right - we must all bow to the Jabba-the-Hutt that is Dublin and the need to try to get close to that absolute mess where our various governments plop everything.

 

[Happyhonkaman]

What is idiotic was putting in place the infrastructure drawing such huge amounts of passengers to a single airport and the resulting snarlups on the road infrastructures to feed it.
It would have been far better to distribute the travel closer to where people live and improve their flight connections.
The centralisation of everything to Dublin has that place absolutely creaking under its own weight

Oh how can we get more water into Dublin to sustain the housing growth plans there? Why not move some infrastructure out to where land is cheaper, water more freely available, and road, rail, electricity easier to funnel.

Oh that’s right - we must all bow to the Jabba-the-Hutt that is Dublin and the need to try to get close to that absolute mess where our various governments plop everything.

I dont disagree, but decentralisation of government agencies was hardly a success was it?
Its far mire complicated than just 'move stuff out of Dublin'

 

[Hallbopping]

What is idiotic was putting in place the infrastructure drawing such huge amounts of passengers to a single airport and the resulting snarlups on the road infrastructures to feed it.
It would have been far better to distribute the travel closer to where people live and improve their flight connections.
The centralisation of everything to Dublin has that place absolutely creaking under its own weight

Oh how can we get more water into Dublin to sustain the housing growth plans there? Why not move some infrastructure out to where land is cheaper, water more freely available, and road, rail, electricity easier to funnel.

Oh that’s right - we must all bow to the Jabba-the-Hutt that is Dublin and the need to try to get close to that absolute mess where our various governments plop everything.

I get you but Dublin is where the majority of people work and it is quite well served by rail to commuter towns on the North, West, South West and Southern lines.

Dublin is the only part of the country with a population density that can sustain the services it has. There are transatlantic flights from Shannon for example yet the airport carries less than 3 million passengers every year. That’s despite Shannon actually having very good infrastructure in terms of pre-clearance, runway length and accessibility to a motorway network.

Dublin has infrastructure challenges too, just different ones. If you hop on the Dart or a commuter train at rush hour you’ll be lucky to stand never mind sit. The M50 is like a car park for a lot of the day.

What we need is investment throughout the country including Dublin.