Ireland’s National Infrastructure

[El Guapo]

I dont disagree, but decentralisation of government agencies was hardly a success was it?
Its far mire complicated than just 'move stuff out of Dublin'

Yeah but that's becuase they dencralised to shit holes like Cavan and Portlaoise.

It should have been to the cities only Cork, Limerick, Galway, Waterford (at a stretch)

There could have been a voluntary redundancy for programme followed with a mandatory element if they couldn't get sufficient relocations and a local hiring programme and potentially transformed a lot of the civil service.

Also the tech wasn't really there on 07. Remote work has changed a lot.

I would look beyond the service to the judiciary and courts too. Why couldn't the supreme court be moved to Galway ot whatever. let them expense it and enrich the couriers of the country

 

[Happyhonkaman]

I get you but Dublin is where the majority of people work and it is quite well served by rail to commuter towns on the North, West, South West and Southern lines.

Dublin is the only part of the country with a population density that can sustain the services it has. There are transatlantic flights from Shannon for example yet the airport carries less than 3 million passengers every year. That’s despite Shannon actually having very good infrastructure in terms of pre-clearance, runway length and accessibility to a motorway network.

Dublin has infrastructure challenges too, just different ones. If you hop on the Dart or a commuter train at rush hour you’ll be lucky to stand never mind sit. The M50 is like a car park for a lot of the day.

What we need is investment throughout the country including Dublin.

The Dart is fine, it is really busy at peak times but you will always get on. They have made the standing spaces bigger and less seats so more fit on. Its a great service if you live and work near it

The M50 is an unmitigated disaster though with 2 main contributors - volume of cars, and shit drivers. I avoid it at all costs, only take it if I absolutely have to and never on a weekday because there are about 5 crashes a day and each of those causes the carpark you are referring to. The thing about all of those crashes is that every one of them is caused by driver error and nothing else. Its mayhem, everybody driving bumper to bumper for fear someone might change lane and get ahead of you, people darting all over the 3 lanes trying to get ahead, and all of this done while people are reading their fucking phones. Drivers are the biggest problem by far there so its impossible to solve

 

[Happyhonkaman]

Yeah but that's becuase they dencralised to shit holes like Cavan and Portlaoise.

It should have been to the cities only Cork, Limerick, Galway, Waterford (at a stretch)

There could have been a voluntary redundancy for programme followed with a mandatory element if they couldn't get sufficient relocations and a local hiring programme and potentially transformed a lot of the civil service.

Also the tech wasn't really there on 07. Remote work has changed a lot.

I would look beyond the service to the judiciary and courts too. Why couldn't the supreme court be moved to Galway ot whatever. let them expense it and enrich the couriers of the country

Thats the point though - why didn't they target bigger cities, and why didn't what they did work? The reality from what i have witnessed is that the public servants didn't want to move, and those that did just moved back again. The OPW has a big shiny HQ in Trim while the majority of them work from Dublin, so much so that they took out a massive lease at 1GQ. The reality for a lot of the decentralised work also is real problems holding staff and any kind of continuity because people take the positions for the promotion as the job is easier got, do your 6-12 months and then apply for a position at the new grade back in Dublin again.

Remote work is a noose around the PS neck, I wouldn't encourage it any further. With private industry employers and employees have found a balance that works and have adapted to that, with the majority back to the office with additional flexibility. The PS unions are too strong so they have stuck stubbornly to WFH because it suits the employee - the reality is services that were already not efficient enough are now an absolute nightmare. Try getting a meeting in person with people from a number of depts.. not a hope, and they are straight up with you in telling you that people WFH on different days so there is no way to get everyone in a room anymore.

We need to spread the load and release some of the pressure on Dublin, but it needs to be a much better plan that decentralisation was, and something people will actually buy in to

 

[El Guapo]

Thats the point though - why didn't they target bigger cities, and why didn't what they did work? The reality from what i have witnessed is that the public servants didn't want to move, and those that did just moved back again. The OPW has a big shiny HQ in Trim while the majority of them work from Dublin, so much so that they took out a massive lease at 1GQ. The reality for a lot of the decentralised work also is real problems holding staff and any kind of continuity because people take the positions for the promotion as the job is easier got, do your 6-12 months and then apply for a position at the new grade back in Dublin again.

Remote work is a noose around the PS neck, I wouldn't encourage it any further. With private industry employers and employees have found a balance that works and have adapted to that, with the majority back to the office with additional flexibility. The PS unions are too strong so they have stuck stubbornly to WFH because it suits the employee - the reality is services that were already not efficient enough are now an absolute nightmare. Try getting a meeting in person with people from a number of depts.. not a hope, and they are straight up with you in telling you that people WFH on different days so there is no way to get everyone in a room anymore.

We need to spread the load and release some of the pressure on Dublin, but it needs to be a much better plan that decentralisation was, and something people will actually buy in to

I suppose the Bertie years were the Apogee of Clientelism.

It was easier to give every backbencher the promise of a dencralised office in his sithole county town.

Your point about commuting for the promotion and a 2 year hardship is valid But that's becuae they had assed it. You have to burn the boats. It's all the senior positions that should have been moved so they would drag the juniors with them. Not have it so that it's a light house to return to.

Centralisation of Government, legislature, Judiciary, Economic and Regulatory centres to Dublin is bad for the whole country including Dublin.

 

[Yermon]

I dont disagree, but decentralisation of government agencies was hardly a success was it?
Its far mire complicated than just 'move stuff out of Dublin'

The decentralisation of the Civil Service should have been given more thrust. This country is outrageously centralised. Some Civil Service Depts were successfully moved, more should be.

Even if it’s a case of telling the Civil Service it will happen within 20 years rather than overnight, but it should be done imho. A Department in a town like Caherciveen could be a huge financial engine to towns like that, but just a drop in the ocean in Dublin and adding to the mess

 

[Yermon]

I get you but Dublin is where the majority of people work and it is quite well served by rail to commuter towns on the North, West, South West and Southern lines.

Dublin is the only part of the country with a population density that can sustain the services it has. There are transatlantic flights from Shannon for example yet the airport carries less than 3 million passengers every year. That’s despite Shannon actually having very good infrastructure in terms of pre-clearance, runway length and accessibility to a motorway network.

Dublin has infrastructure challenges too, just different ones. If you hop on the Dart or a commuter train at rush hour you’ll be lucky to stand never mind sit. The M50 is like a car park for a lot of the day.

What we need is investment throughout the country including Dublin.

“But Dublin is where the majority of people work” is the very issue FFS. Decentralise, make things more accessible - not less!

 

[Hallbopping]

The decentralisation of the Civil Service should have been given more thrust. This country is outrageously centralised. Some Civil Service Depts were successfully moved, more should be.

Even if it’s a case of telling the Civil Service it will happen within 20 years rather than overnight, but it should be done imho. A Department in a town like Caherciveen could be a huge financial engine to towns like that, but just a drop in the ocean in Dublin and adding to the mess

Where it went wrong was the concept of decentralisation in the first place.

The Government should have devolved powers to local authorities not moving Government departments to places that civil servants didn’t want to move to.

 

[Yermon]

Where it went wrong was the concept of decentralisation in the first place.

The Government should have devolved powers to local authorities not moving Government departments to places that civil servants didn’t want to move to.

Fuck the “I have my house in Dublin now” brigade. The tax-spend of the state should be shared for the benefit of the people of the state - not just sucked to Dublin for the greater benefit of the people of Dublin. There needs to be some anti-dub discrimination to redress the balance and unabashed Dublin Dublin Dublin bias of the last 100+ years

Certainly should be more devolution to the provinces. !

 

[Hallbopping]

Fuck the “I have my house in Dublin now” brigade. The tax-spend of the state should be shared for the benefit of the people of the state - not just sucked to Dublin for the greater benefit of the people of Dublin. There needs to be some anti-dub discrimination to redress the balance and unabashed Dublin Dublin Dublin bias of the last 100+ years

Certainly should be more devolution to the provinces. !

That’s easy to say in theory but what about people with family responsibilities, kids in school etc.

It’s not that easy.

Power is too centralised in Dublin and the answer to that is more power to local authorities not upping and moving the Department of Transport to Shannon.

 

[Yermon]

That’s easy to say in theory but what about people with family responsibilities, kids in school etc.

It’s not that easy.

Power is too centralised in Dublin and the answer to that is more power to local authorities not upping and moving the Department of Transport to Shannon.

That’s why people should be given plenty of notice. There should be notification now that by 2045 there’ll be 70% of the people entering the Civil Service in this country will be working outside of Dublin. Let them prepare for it.