Cork Hurlers - Part 2

[BeBraveBelieve]

Is he ever gonna kick on, he could be a ball winner in the half forward line, was very good with the U20s under the high ball. Also had a good relationship with BOC, needs a good winter

Hadn’t put his hand up whatsoever in club championship the last few years. I really agree he needs a big one this year.

 

[TonyCork80]

Then we're agreed that JP's money has helped Limerick hugely.

Nobody denies that Limerick also have the hurling raw material which is retained and nurtured in the careful stewardship of the well remunerated best nutritionists, physios, sports psychologist, tacticians etc.


Compare and contrast the Limerick careful nurturing of underage talent - Limerick GAA is investing €20 million to develop its new Centre of Excellence on a 95-acre site in Crecora compared to Cork investing a reported €1M. They're the levels of difference that you're dealing with.

Cork has hurling talent bleeding out to rugby. Very much doubt there's been a similar loss from Limerick hurling over JP's period. Time was rugby was the top sport in Limerick, particularly in the city, that's no longer the case. Off the top of my head Cork have lost inter-county winning talent like O'Leary, Sweetnam, O'Connor to rugby. When you're "Close but no cigar" which Cork have been (last year and this excluded) then the loss of such talent can make all the difference over the years.

Good luck to Limerick they've taken the huge McManus sponsorship and leveraged it to be immensely more than the sum of it's parts, but I think it naive to say the least to pretend that the money being ploughed into the game in Limerick isn't having in incredible positive influence on them from grass-roots up to Inter County Champions.

And meanwhile Cork GAA has a financial millstone around its neck - and for what? Would people put up with smellier toilets and longer queues for concessions when watching their intercounty side if it meant winning the occasional All Ireland? They do in Limerick and Tipp. FFS they even do in Clare with that s*it ground in Ennis.

And by the time Cork GAA eventually clears the debt (if they ever do) it'll be time to revamp the park again

You're conflating a bunch of issues there.

Put a number on how much more Cork should be spending to get us over the line.

The money that has been poured into hurling in Dublin dwarfs what McManus has invested and has yielded a grand total of one Leinster title. It's certainly made Dublin more competitive and the clubs have won plenty of all Irelands (although there's not much beyond the top 5 or 6 clubs) but what you're looking at with Limerick there is down to the players. The rugby thing is a red herring. There are ten years each between the three Cork players you mention. I don't know what if any rugby pedigree the Limerick players have but you're hardly telling me the Quaids, Hayeses, Morrisseys and Hegartys of this world with their backgrounds had to be somehow persuaded to play hurling rather than rugby.

All this has happened while they've been backed very strongly by a sponsor, which has maybe helped keep the team together but Limerick are spending the same amount as Cork, Tipp and Galway. Correlation does not equal causation.

 

[TexasRed]

This nonsense about JP and his spending. How many times have we heard our lads are pucking a ball around 2hrs before training. It’s like who can spend the longest in the gym. Taking those extra hours off work, who pays for that? Probably the employer.
I wish we had someone who is as dedicated to Cork hurling as JP is to Limerick. He’s a passionate supporter and good for him.
By all accounts Caroline Currid got the loudest cheer after Cian lynch speech, a fucken phycologist. The game has not changed that much, it’s still 15v 15 and a man with a whistle. We show up two hours early for training but don’t show up at all when it matters in game. The mental side of the game is and always will be next ball. I don’t think the Limerick lads have more of a unity than the cork players. They are just far better coached and play their system like a fine instrument. Until we produce consistent animals for work and lads who thrive when the chips are down then we are going nowhere fast.

 

[Hurlywurly]

You're conflating a bunch of issues there.

Put a number on how much more Cork should be spending to get us over the line.

The money that has been poured into hurling in Dublin dwarfs what McManus has invested and has yielded a grand total of one Leinster title. It's certainly made Dublin more competitive and the clubs have won plenty of all Irelands (although there's not much beyond the top 5 or 6 clubs) but what you're looking at with Limerick there is down to the players. The rugby thing is a red herring. There are ten years each between the three Cork players you mention. I don't know what if any rugby pedigree the Limerick players have but you're hardly telling me the Quaids, Hayeses, Morrisseys and Hegartys of this world with their backgrounds had to be somehow persuaded to play hurling rather than rugby.

All this has happened while they've been backed very strongly by a sponsor, which has maybe helped keep the team together but Limerick are spending the same amount as Cork, Tipp and Galway. Correlation does not equal causation.

This is probs a discussion for the hurling thread but seeing as the convo is continuing here...

Firstly: figures please. That's a big statement which relies on showing a comparison in numbers.
To my knowledge, the total sum of money that JP has funneled directly into Limerick GAA over the last two decades is not publicly published so I don't know how you can back up your claim.

That JPs wealth has been solidly baked into transforming Limerick from a county that won 7 AI over the guts of 130 years into a county that has won 6 AI in 9 years is undeniable.

I would say that his money means Lim can essentially operate in some way like a professional sports franchise within the GAA.

I understand people get antsy about talking about this, seems to me almost like people are being shamed into not speaking their mind.
Cork haven't won an AI in 22yrs = Cork people should shut up..
I get that Cork hurling team is well funded (in line with published numbers for other counties), I'm fully on-board with the statement that our current situation is not money related.

I can say that freely and still hold the view that Limerick's continued success goes hand in hand with the pro structures that have been put in place to ensure that the best available people are making the decisions and elite level facilities are available to players all the way up the age groups.
Put it this way - Limerick don't need to have a sponsor on their shirt fronts or sleeves - the money is available from one source, no energy needed to secure it.
If you don't need to worry about money and you're not beholden to multiple sponsors and private donors, everyone's energy can be focused where it needs to be.
Mistakes are easier to overcome if financially you can absorb the hit or if the money required to rectify them can be freely provided.

Good luck to them, it's essentially a golden scenario, but let's not carry on as if in it's entirety it's something that is replicable in other counties without similar levels and mechanisms for investment.
And here is the kicker: it should not need to be.

Up to us and other counties to deliver excellence and high performance through our own structures, people, goodwill, community, unity and talent without needing unlimited funding to do so.
In parallel I think the association as a whole needs to have honest conversations, agree on what they consider acceptable, sustainable levels and mechanisms for funding.
Wouldn't hold my breath though...

 

[Sammac]

This is probs a discussion for the hurling thread but seeing as the convo is continuing here...

Firstly: figures please. That's a big statement which relies on showing a comparison in numbers.
To my knowledge, the total sum of money that JP has funneled directly into Limerick GAA over the last two decades is not publicly published so I don't know how you can back up your claim.

That JPs wealth has been solidly baked into transforming Limerick from a county that won 7 AI over the guts of 130 years into a county that has won 6 AI in 9 years is undeniable.

I would say that his money means Lim can essentially operate in some way like a professional sports franchise within the GAA.

I understand people get antsy about talking about this, seems to me almost like people are being shamed into not speaking their mind.
Cork haven't won an AI in 22yrs = Cork people should shut up..
I get that Cork hurling team is well funded (in line with published numbers for other counties), I'm fully on-board with the statement that our current situation is not money related.

I can say that freely and still hold the view that Limerick's continued success goes hand in hand with the pro structures that have been put in place to ensure that the best available people are making the decisions and elite level facilities are available to players all the way up the age groups.
Put it this way - Limerick don't need to have a sponsor on their shirt fronts or sleeves - the money is available from one source, no energy needed to secure it.
If you don't need to worry about money and you're not beholden to multiple sponsors and private donors, everyone's energy can be focused where it needs to be.
Mistakes are easier to overcome if financially you can absorb the hit or if the money required to rectify them can be freely provided.

Good luck to them, it's essentially a golden scenario, but let's not carry on as if in it's entirety it's something that is replicable in other counties without similar levels and mechanisms for investment.
And here is the kicker: it should not need to be.

Up to us and other counties to deliver excellence and high performance through our own structures, people, goodwill, community, unity and talent without needing unlimited funding to do so.
In parallel I think the association as a whole needs to have honest conversations, agree on what they consider acceptable, sustainable levels and mechanisms for funding.
Wouldn't hold my breath though...

I agree with alot of the above but JP has been putting money into Limerick GAA for a long time, maybe over 20 years?

I do Limericks success has come from a once in a generation set of players with a remarkable manager, I think they would have succeeded without the financial help.

 

[Hurlywurly]

I agree with alot of the above but JP has been putting money into Limerick GAA for a long time, maybe over 20 years?

I do Limericks success has come from a once in a generation set of players with a remarkable manager, I think they would have succeeded without the financial help.

We'll never know.
I'd argue that they would not have this sustained level of success WITHOUT the heavy investment that delivered an elite environment.
The only other team with their age profile to win an AI are the Dubs.

 

[StoneHouse]

We'll never know.
I'd argue that they would not have this sustained level of success WITHOUT the heavy investment that delivered an elite environment.
The only other team with their age profile to win an AI are the Dubs.

They don’t have a COE like Kerry. They used to borrow training facilities and pitches from UL a fair bit. They’ve been fairly poor underage for a while until this year despite the famous academy structures. I know the senior players used to train in bang average gyms in Castletroy. I wouldn’t overdo the extent it’s a professional outfit. They want for nothing but neither do Cork. They had an incredible generation of players come along at once when it was well funded and well managed

 

[Cook My Sock]

I agree with alot of the above but JP has been putting money into Limerick GAA for a long time, maybe over 20 years?

I do Limericks success has come from a once in a generation set of players with a remarkable manager, I think they would have succeeded without the financial help.

Isn't it strange that the Limerick footballers are stuck in Div 4 considering the unlimited funds available to the ccounty board?

 

[Blackajam]

This nonsense about JP and his spending. How many times have we heard our lads are pucking a ball around 2hrs before training. It’s like who can spend the longest in the gym. Taking those extra hours off work, who pays for that? Probably the employer.
I wish we had someone who is as dedicated to Cork hurling as JP is to Limerick. He’s a passionate supporter and good for him.
By all accounts Caroline Currid got the loudest cheer after Cian lynch speech, a fucken phycologist. The game has not changed that much, it’s still 15v 15 and a man with a whistle. We show up two hours early for training but don’t show up at all when it matters in game. The mental side of the game is and always will be next ball. I don’t think the Limerick lads have more of a unity than the cork players. They are just far better coached and play their system like a fine instrument. Until we produce consistent animals for work and lads who thrive when the chips are down then we are going nowhere fast.

Agreed here, going off 2018 & 19 we were on par with them . Would Cork have won a few All Irelands if they had Kiely and Kinerck? I believe we would have. Our ponce style of hurling wasn’t effective against them from 20-23. There was a couple of years after 19 to build a culture around hard work but we went for the Harlem Globtrotters style of hurling

 

[Blackajam]

Jamie Wall is a superb coach. He left no stone unturned when he was at Mary I. He was involved with the development squads in Cork at some stage. He'd be a great man to get back involved with Cork underage hurling again.

This is the guy to change the culture . Not good having ex players involved who have baggage and also who profited off the new stadium.