Cork Footballers

[WCJoe]

There it is in black and white..Good post peopleluas ??

 

[peopleluas]

Cork are hardly the only County that have lads doing weights training below minor. In fact, we're potentially further behind (depending on your view point) most Counties on it. Take a look at rugby junior cup school sides.

I suppose there are two aspects to the discussion:

1. Whether, as it would and does occur in practice, it is in the long-term interest of the player.
2. The extent to which it is actually happening, in this county, in other counties, in various sports, etc.

Accepting your point @Jukka about aspect 2, do you believe it is in the long-term interest of the player?

There is of course the argument that if the weight training were very well supervised by responsible and informed professionals then there wouldn't be a problem. It's just that it kind of fails the "but would that really happen in practice?" test.

 

[Ogre Moran]

Wouldn't it be just better to have Cork lads and lassies out kicking the ball in their teens and adding the weight and strength post-teens? You can add that strength in a few years. Better off having a teenager out washing cars for a summer job and building up real strength from that but those type of jobs are being mechanised. Still better off prioritising the football skills and mindset in the early years.

 

[Killyoursons]

I suppose there are two aspects to the discussion:

1. Whether, as it would and does occur in practice, it is in the long-term interest of the player.
2. The extent to which it is actually happening, in this county, in other counties, in various sports, etc.

Accepting your point @Jukka about aspect 2, do you believe it is in the long-term interest of the player?

There is of course the argument that if the weight training were very well supervised by responsible and informed professionals then there wouldn't be a problem. It's just that it kind of fails the "but would that really happen in practice?" test.

On the last point, surely it would be relevant to ask if there are any circumstances in which it can be and has been implemented in the way you suggest, e.g., properly supervised and structured? I mean, I'd honestly be surprised if no top-level rugby set-ups had 16-year-olds doing at least some weights.*

The next question would be if those circumstances could be put in place in a GAA context. And the answer there might be 'no', at least for many or even most clubs and even county youth set-ups.

*Edit: one quick Google later - https://www.rugbycoachweekly.net/ru...ength-training-drills-for-young-rugby-players

From that it sounds like 16 is the absolute earliest a player should be on a weights programme.

 

[Killyoursons]

Just back from a match.

There are two ways a child can suffer a growth plate injury.

• One is that something sudden and acute happens (in the same way as a leg might be broken), and I am not sure how that can be prevented - it's just the risk of physical activity - there are also risks in not being physically active - life isn't risk-free.
• The other way is from overuse without adequate rest - a youngster of my acquaintance was competing at a high level and suffered it that way. How the physio (a very well known physio) explained it to us was that everytime the child does the intense activity they cause some very small micro injuries to the growth plate. This is not a problem at all as long as there is adequate rest in-between to allow the body to repair. Without that adequate rest period, things will gradually get worse because each time training/playing the child is starting from a position of these little micro-injuries not being healed. Then of course pain will set in, and a less-knowledgeable coach or physio may diagnose a muscle-pull which he explained almost never happens at the age that this child was at (i.e. it's usually the growth plate as that is the weakest link at that age). And even with a knowledgeable people, some very competitive children won't tell ya about the pain 'cos they want to play! The same physio strongly advised against weights until the athlete is fully grown.

It's over-use injuries that I suspect could be more avoided than they are.

In terms of digestible for the lay reader, this one seems good (albeit perhaps targeted at slightly younger than we are discussing).

Great post and link, thanks. Again, the focus here doesn't seem to be on S&C training per se, but on overtraining and inadequate recuperation in general. That said, the more S&C you add to standard training sessions and matches each week, the more strain you are placing on the players, the less chance they have to recover, and presumably the higher the chance is they pick up overuse injuries as a result.

 

[peopleluas]

From that it sounds like 16 is the absolute earliest a player should be on a weights programme.

The key words in your reference are "even then it depends on their individual physical maturity". I'll translate this: "are they finished growing?" - for most boys at that age, the answer is "no" (the spurt may be over, but they are still growing).

I agree with you that if things were properly supervised by adequately informed adults then there wouldn't be a problem. One could say the same about lots of things though (e.g. responsible drinking).

What's the rush? Why not focus at these ages on enjoyment, attitude, motivation, skills, resilience, etc.? - those are the ages where those are best acquired. Have them do exercises under their own body-weight, get them summer jobs in Ballyhass or picking strawberries or something like that, and play it a bit safe on the weights until they are older.

Other sports are mentioned (I mentioned another sport too) - this is natural as we learn from other sports. But other sports have their player-welfare challenges too, and the fact that another sport is doing something is not, in of itself alone, a reason we should copy it. I'm interested in evidence showing whether or not it is in the long-term interest of the player (I absolutely concede that it is, on average, in the short-term interest of the player).

Look, I think the problem is not really from those of us who have some understanding of the issue, though we might differ slightly about when to start. The problem I see is that the vast number of coaches and parents have no awareness of this at all, and until that changes I'd be saying to be safe and leave it until they are older.

 

[TonyCork80]

Mixed views on this to be honest, however the reality is if they’re not doing it with Cork they’ll be doing it on their own and that’s potentially far more dangerous. Most clubs around the country will be well used to chasing 14 year olds out of gyms.

A lot gets lumped in under S&C but athletic development is a better term and you’d hope that’s a lot of what’s going on. By international standards Irish boys in particular are not good movers. They’d likely get a lot more out of fundamental movement skills than lumping on weights.

By way of anecdote I coach a team in our club with a Bosnian guy who gives us a hand with the athletic side of things and he was saying it’s compulsory there or was at least anyway for young boys to do gymnastics or ballet (!) to get those skills up to speed. Our lads are rigid compared to him and he’s heading for 50!

 

[peopleluas]

young boys to do gymnastics or ballet (!) to get those skills up to speed. Our lads are rigid compared to him and he’s heading for 50!

Here's my total guess on that one:

Got to be very careful. Joint-flexibility is not always a good thing. Our boys are playing football, and I would contend that some of the flexibility required to be demonstrated in gymnastics moves to acquire scores in a sport such as gymnastics (or ballet) can be the a flexibility of the type that would make the player more vulnerable to joint injuries playing football. There are certain rigidities which likely have evolved over millennia and which are likely protective of our joints.

Again that's only a guess of mine @TonyCork80 - not to be taken to the bank, although this German study has interesting tables and charts comparing back pain across sports and, unsurprisingly to me, gymnastics scores very poorly relative to other sports in both incidence and severity of back pain: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5491135. I've known gymnasts who could reach back over their heads, grab both ankles with their hands, and walk! My amateur reaction was: "this level of flexibility can't be good - I don't think our bodies evolved for this".

 

[JimmyBarrySmurph]

I could write for days on this topic. PL has captured it all very well for us.
Unsupervised S&C at all ages in causing wreck.
Unsupervised children in club gyms is an epidemic that should be and is illegal.
Club coaches running these high intensity training programs and not actually knowing what there are doing is causing wreck.
The sedentary lifestyle versus the high intensity training versus the poor rest and recovery is causing wreck. Commute, desk work, commute, training, Netflix- disaster.
Poor nutrition is inadequate and hollow, as it is reliant on highly processed foods like protein shakes, protein sweets and treats, factory chicken and nutritionally empty imported vegetables.

 

[JimmyBarrySmurph]

I could write for days on this topic. PL has captured it all very well for us.
Unsupervised S&C at all ages in causing wreck.
Unsupervised children in club gyms is an epidemic that should be and is illegal.
Club coaches running these high intensity training programs and not actually knowing what there are doing is causing wreck.
The sedentary lifestyle versus the high intensity training versus the poor rest and recovery is causing wreck. Commute, desk work, commute, training, Netflix- disaster.
Poor nutrition is inadequate and hollow, as it is reliant on highly processed foods like protein shakes, protein sweets and treats, factory chicken and nutritionally empty imported vegetables.

Unrelated but still on children.. Fellas talk about rebel og.. as if it’s some sort of elite training academy.. absolute waffle.. it’s a complete and utter joke.
This years minor football team. During prep last year for 4/5 months from about June to October they trained just 2 times and did satellite S&C training in west cork, the city and somewhere up in North Cork a couple of times a month.