Cork County Board – sending small clubs back to the bad old days

[Killyoursons]

just for clarity, their move is to split amalgamated teams at go games unless absolutely necessary. They are not looking to split amalgamated teams at Rebel Og unless absolutely necessary

The question is, necessary for whom? In the scenario Topper is describing, it sounds like one of the two clubs could go alone but not the other. I'd call that 'absolutely necessary'.

again i have to wonder is this being aimed at the bigger club more than ye? Have they the numbers to survive on their own and the board know that

if im right in that suspicion then maybe the solution is to ask the board to allow 3 or 4 very small clubs like yerselves to come together in an Imokilly team for Rebel Og competitions just like the initiative in Seandun this year

I could see that working in certain circumstances, but against it you might be talking about clubs from v far apart being brought together, which imo would make it a less attractive option in terms of commuting to training, kids playing with friends and schoolmates, etc. The current set-up described by Topper has two clubs from the one parish fielding joint teams at some age groups. I would say that if that is working well and if one (or both) of the clubs couldn't field on their own (without fielding girls or much younger players), they should be allowed to continue unless a clearly better alternative becomes available.

 

[Rebelred]

Preamble:

I wanted to create a thread specifically about the move by Cork GAA to split up independent teams at GoGames and Rebel Og.

A lot of good conversation has already been captured in the County board complaints thread.
However this is singularly the biggest crisis facing my club in a long time (and I imagine other clubs) that I think it best to give the conversation a bit of space.

I’m not sure what I expect to gain from this – maybe a bit of unloading stress, ideas on what our options are or even some sympathy to our plight (yes, yes, I know…)

Background:
I’m a member of one of the affected clubs and have been all my life.
I played from U-10 to Junior B and have worn the same jersey as my Grandfather, Father, Uncles, Cousins, Brothers and which my own Sons and nephews will too.
I’m fairly invested in the Admin and coaching side but have never felt so helpless about the whole thing….

Our club is playing juvenile games with another club in the same parish through GoGames and all through RebelOg.
Both have our own nurseries and have put a huge effort into modernising and building out our club facilities and presenting our club as the most attractive sporting
organisation in our side of the parish.

We have a very small population in our side of the parish and have traditionally knocked around at C and D grades underage with players generally having to
play 3 years up to fill teams.

We have also hemorrhaged players over the years to clubs outside our parish and across to the other club in our parish as they are generally a larger population
and thus a higher grade/standard.

We made a decision a number of years back to partner with our fellow parishoners and join up from U7 to minor and thus ensure that teams can be fielded at all
age groups where boys can play hurling and football at a reasonable level.



It has been hugely successful for us as a small club and means that we can hold training sessions with 14-20 boys of the same age and enter GoGames blitzs
knowing that we can have 3 teams of 6 on a good day.
The boys are playing a handy standard of hurling and football and sometimes compete well at P2 as they progress through the underage setup.



At all the GoGames we have a policy that every child plays every minute. We encourage the opposition likewise. This can result sometimes in a 6 v 5 or
7 v 6 but we are fairly clear that we do not want the opposition or ourselves to leave any child on the sideline at that a young age even as a rolling sub.

We are not in a position to leave players behind – you never know who will be a late bloomer, who will be secretary in 20 years, who will be a club sponsor,
accountant, solicitor etc.

We have worked really hard in our adult club over the last few decades with a view on helping our community and giving the best of what we can.
We’ve consistently promoted youth within our committee and have a pretty forward thinking group of people involved in building and progressing,
building and progressing...


All of the strides made has been without any support from the county board – never once have they come to us and offered help or support.
Never have the county board come to us and asked how they can help, what can we do to improve your lot? (caveat; I do expect this to be common to most clubs)



However, for Pat Horgan, Kevin O’Donovan and the rest of the executive, we are a problem….



What we put to the Steering committee
We have gone through our analysis of playing numbers and put a huge mount of work into this.
Right now we can field teams in an amalgamation at U12 by dipping into the U11s.

We will generally get 14-18 boys for a Go Games Blitz at U7 – U11 in the amalgamation. This is between 2 clubs in the one parish. Some boys are really
interested, some are just turning up because their parents are dragging them along.

For the GoGames we have been partnered with another club where we try to match the numbers of a larger club.

i.e. Country Parish A + Country Parish B = X% of larger club.
i.e. the large club might bring 35-40 players and leave 10-20 at home/training. The 2 country parishes (us and a standalone parish club) cannot
ever match the numbers of the larger clubs.

Again, and I can’t stress this enough, for Pat Horgan, Kevin O’Donovan and the rest of the executive, we are the problem??!!



Recommendation from the Steering committee
We put our case to the steering committee and to be fair it was a disaster.
Instead of any effort to figure out how they can help keep the show on the road, how they can help to promote the game or indeed any sympathy
to our plight they are intent on breaking up what we are working so hard to keep alive.

So instead of building and progressing year on year they are now intent on sending us back to the bad old days of the 80’s and 90’s where we had
years of no juvenile teams or fluting around at C and D grade.

Some of the supports/offers they put to us is that:

• “General Rule” will now allow us to use 8 year olds to supplement our U12 team.
• Why don’t ye use girls if ye are stuck
• There are less payers needed at D grade

Yes, they actually formed these sentences in their minds, opened their mouths and said them to us!!!

Today they have come back to us with their recommendations to us which they will push to be passed next Tuesday night:
We go our separate ways from u7 to u12.

What this means in reality
To have an U12 team, means that we have to use 9 year olds at a minimum and probably 8 year olds to field.

We have parents at U10 speaking of transferring inter-parish to the larger club. We only have 7 players at this age in any case.
We are under siege with a thriving underage soccer setup in East Cork and it is not going to improve with the advent of Summer Soccer.

It is absolutely distressing for the parents, children and members of of our community to be picked apart like this.

I really don’t know what we can do – the underage part of our GAA club is evaporating before our eyes and we are helpless to do anything about it.

To me, this is Kevin O’Donovan and Pat Horgan’s legacy.

Shame on you both

Your meeting with the steering committee appears to have gone along the same lines as our own. Have heard similar from people who represented other amalgamations. Pat Horgan in particular, didn't want to hear anything our members had to say. When it was put to him that perhaps some u10 players would not be physically ready to play u12 and their parents may not want them to, his answer was they'll just have to get on with it.
The Chair of the County board essentially saying "Child protection be damned!"

These lads are sending us back to the dark ages.

 

[Rebel CNC]

Also, and I can't stress this enough, it doesn't matter if one club in the amalgamation has 20 players...if the second club has only a handful of players they need the amalgamation.

Of all the things that need work in Cork GAA, the board go after this. Idiotic is an understatement.

Fair play to the OP for a great post and I hope common sense prevails.

Exactly!! If the solution involves putting 8 year olds into a u12 team, that is unworkable. If an u12 can't put together a team with players from 10-12 years old cohort, they need to amalgamate.

Where are the Board coming from on this?? Are there clubs with enough players to each field a team on their own looking to amalgamate to play at higher grade??

I know there was an issue down in West Cork a few years ago when parents felt that continuing an amalgamation made no sense when looking at numbers available and some kids were getting practically no game time at all.

Nine Barryroe underage players ask to transfer out of their home club | The Southern Star

Nine underage players from Barryoe GAA Club are waiting to hear if they will be allowed transfer out of the club.

www.southernstar.ie

 

[omar]

Where are the Board coming from on this??

I have no idea. The only ones who can answer that are Pat Horgan and KOD.

They seem to think they know the demographics and lay of the land in clubs better than the club's own committee and members because they have access to some data.

Punishing smaller clubs is just absolutely bonkers. Again if a small club is happy with their place in an amalgamation with a bigger club as in the case of the OP here, why not trust the judgement of the club? They wouldn't be in the amalgamation if it wasn't necessary.

If they have an issue with a certain amalgamation or two, then why not deal with those cases individually and on their own merits?

This approach is idiotic and strikes me as being more vindictive than progressive. Numerous people have made the point that player retention is a much bigger issue in some of our clubs with massive populations so their approach to amalgamations is bonkers to me.

 

[peopleluas]

Preamble:

I wanted to create a thread specifically about the move by Cork GAA to split up independent teams at GoGames and Rebel Og.

A lot of good conversation has already been captured in the County board complaints thread.
However this is singularly the biggest crisis facing my club in a long time (and I imagine other clubs) that I think it best to give the conversation a bit of space.

I’m not sure what I expect to gain from this – maybe a bit of unloading stress, ideas on what our options are or even some sympathy to our plight (yes, yes, I know…)

Background:
I’m a member of one of the affected clubs and have been all my life.
I played from U-10 to Junior B and have worn the same jersey as my Grandfather, Father, Uncles, Cousins, Brothers and which my own Sons and nephews will too.
I’m fairly invested in the Admin and coaching side but have never felt so helpless about the whole thing….

Our club is playing juvenile games with another club in the same parish through GoGames and all through RebelOg.
Both have our own nurseries and have put a huge effort into modernising and building out our club facilities and presenting our club as the most attractive sporting
organisation in our side of the parish.

We have a very small population in our side of the parish and have traditionally knocked around at C and D grades underage with players generally having to
play 3 years up to fill teams.

We have also hemorrhaged players over the years to clubs outside our parish and across to the other club in our parish as they are generally a larger population
and thus a higher grade/standard.

We made a decision a number of years back to partner with our fellow parishoners and join up from U7 to minor and thus ensure that teams can be fielded at all
age groups where boys can play hurling and football at a reasonable level.



It has been hugely successful for us as a small club and means that we can hold training sessions with 14-20 boys of the same age and enter GoGames blitzs
knowing that we can have 3 teams of 6 on a good day.
The boys are playing a handy standard of hurling and football and sometimes compete well at P2 as they progress through the underage setup.



At all the GoGames we have a policy that every child plays every minute. We encourage the opposition likewise. This can result sometimes in a 6 v 5 or
7 v 6 but we are fairly clear that we do not want the opposition or ourselves to leave any child on the sideline at that a young age even as a rolling sub.

We are not in a position to leave players behind – you never know who will be a late bloomer, who will be secretary in 20 years, who will be a club sponsor,
accountant, solicitor etc.

We have worked really hard in our adult club over the last few decades with a view on helping our community and giving the best of what we can.
We’ve consistently promoted youth within our committee and have a pretty forward thinking group of people involved in building and progressing,
building and progressing...


All of the strides made has been without any support from the county board – never once have they come to us and offered help or support.
Never have the county board come to us and asked how they can help, what can we do to improve your lot? (caveat; I do expect this to be common to most clubs)



However, for Pat Horgan, Kevin O’Donovan and the rest of the executive, we are a problem….



What we put to the Steering committee
We have gone through our analysis of playing numbers and put a huge mount of work into this.
Right now we can field teams in an amalgamation at U12 by dipping into the U11s.

We will generally get 14-18 boys for a Go Games Blitz at U7 – U11 in the amalgamation. This is between 2 clubs in the one parish. Some boys are really
interested, some are just turning up because their parents are dragging them along.

For the GoGames we have been partnered with another club where we try to match the numbers of a larger club.

i.e. Country Parish A + Country Parish B = X% of larger club.
i.e. the large club might bring 35-40 players and leave 10-20 at home/training. The 2 country parishes (us and a standalone parish club) cannot
ever match the numbers of the larger clubs.

Again, and I can’t stress this enough, for Pat Horgan, Kevin O’Donovan and the rest of the executive, we are the problem??!!



Recommendation from the Steering committee
We put our case to the steering committee and to be fair it was a disaster.
Instead of any effort to figure out how they can help keep the show on the road, how they can help to promote the game or indeed any sympathy
to our plight they are intent on breaking up what we are working so hard to keep alive.

So instead of building and progressing year on year they are now intent on sending us back to the bad old days of the 80’s and 90’s where we had
years of no juvenile teams or fluting around at C and D grade.

Some of the supports/offers they put to us is that:

• “General Rule” will now allow us to use 8 year olds to supplement our U12 team.
• Why don’t ye use girls if ye are stuck
• There are less payers needed at D grade

Yes, they actually formed these sentences in their minds, opened their mouths and said them to us!!!

Today they have come back to us with their recommendations to us which they will push to be passed next Tuesday night:
We go our separate ways from u7 to u12.

What this means in reality
To have an U12 team, means that we have to use 9 year olds at a minimum and probably 8 year olds to field.

We have parents at U10 speaking of transferring inter-parish to the larger club. We only have 7 players at this age in any case.
We are under siege with a thriving underage soccer setup in East Cork and it is not going to improve with the advent of Summer Soccer.

It is absolutely distressing for the parents, children and members of of our community to be picked apart like this.

I really don’t know what we can do – the underage part of our GAA club is evaporating before our eyes and we are helpless to do anything about it.

To me, this is Kevin O’Donovan and Pat Horgan’s legacy.

Shame on you both

What would make all the difference in the world to the case your club makes, is if you included the number of boys in the national schools that feed your club. That would enable to the reader to validate that the number of boys you explain you generally get is close to the number of boys which are available to be got.

Those who review your case may have seen other cases where there's a vast difference, but they mightn't come out and say it.

Glancing at a club of interest, I see a club who does not field in amalgamated teams, and that club had 55 boys combined in the rolls of their National Schools at the end of September 2024. Dividing by 8, that's just under 7 boys on average per year. We'd all agree that they likely find this very challenging, and there would be other clubs who'd find it very difficult to get (say) 6 of those 7 playing with the club - and so 55 boys in National Schools is probably too challenging a threshold to expect a club to go on its own (even if some clubs manage it).

What's the number of boys in yeer national schools, along with any other relevant circumstances locally which also impact on the availability of boys?

http://tiny.cc/corkboys is a handy reference spotted by @red&blue some time ago. And if you don't trust that, get the info from the dept of education at https://www.gov.ie/en/department-of-education/collections/primary-schools-enrolment-figures.

This will I would hope enable you to further strengthen your case.

 

[Rebelred]

What would make all the difference in the word to the case your club makes, is if you included the number of boys in the national schools that feed your club. That would enable to the reader to validate that the number of boys you explain you generally get is close to the number of boys which are available to be got.

Those who review your case may have seen other cases where there's a vast difference, but they mightn't come out and say it.

Glancing at a club of interest, I see a club who does not field in amalgamated teams, and that club had 55 boys combined in the rolls of their National Schools at the end of September 2024. Dividing by 8, that's just under 7 boys on average per year. We'd all agree that they likely find this very challenging, and there would be other clubs who'd find it very difficult to get (say) 6 of those 7 playing with the club - and so 55 boys in National Schools is probably too challenging a threshold to expect a club to go on its own (even if some clubs manage it).

What's the number of boys in yeer national schools, along with any other relevant circumstances locally which also impact on the availability of boys?

http://tiny.cc/corkboys is a handy reference spotted by @red&blue some time ago. And if you don't trust that, get the info from the dept of education at https://www.gov.ie/en/department-of-education/collections/primary-schools-enrolment-figures.

This will I would hope enable you to further strengthen your case.

Our club did this, as well as including the demographics of the parish, the lack of new housing being built and essentially had a timeline laid out of what our numbers are likely to be in the years to come.
They didn't even look at it or give it a moments thought. They have their minds made up and these meetings with club are simply to show they are following process.

 

[peopleluas]

Our club did this, as well as including the demographics of the parish, the lack of new housing being built and essentially had a timeline laid out of what our numbers are likely to be in the years to come.
They didn't even look at it or give it a moments thought. They have their minds made up and these meetings with club are simply to show they are following process.

How many boys are in yeer national schools? (they might have already checked)

 

[Pooman]

It's interesting to note that two of the more successful amalgamations are near neighbours of the Chairman's own club. In fact one of them played Midleton in the Premier Minor Hurling Championship this year. You'd have to wonder is this affecting his thinking.

 

[Henrys Fonda]

It's interesting to note that two of the more successful amalgamations are near neighbours of the Chairman's own club. In fact one of them played Midleton in the Premier Minor Hurling Championship this year. You'd have to wonder is this affecting his thinking.

Yes and if was to go full conspiracy theorist, I would be asking where the players from amalgamation would end up if either club can’t feed a team after the amalgamation gets cancelled.

 

[Pooman]

Yes and if was to go full conspiracy theorist, I would be asking where the players from amalgamation would end up if either club can’t feed a team after the amalgamation gets cancelled.

That was my thinking alright. You'd wonder if the flow of players into Midleton from certain areas has dried up over the last few years.