Cork County Board – sending small clubs back to the bad old days

[topper]

Preamble:

I wanted to create a thread specifically about the move by Cork GAA to split up independent teams at GoGames and Rebel Og.

A lot of good conversation has already been captured in the County board complaints thread.
However this is singularly the biggest crisis facing my club in a long time (and I imagine other clubs) that I think it best to give the conversation a bit of space.

I’m not sure what I expect to gain from this – maybe a bit of unloading stress, ideas on what our options are or even some sympathy to our plight (yes, yes, I know…)

Background:
I’m a member of one of the affected clubs and have been all my life.
I played from U-10 to Junior B and have worn the same jersey as my Grandfather, Father, Uncles, Cousins, Brothers and which my own Sons and nephews will too.
I’m fairly invested in the Admin and coaching side but have never felt so helpless about the whole thing….

Our club is playing juvenile games with another club in the same parish through GoGames and all through RebelOg.
Both have our own nurseries and have put a huge effort into modernising and building out our club facilities and presenting our club as the most attractive sporting
organisation in our side of the parish.

We have a very small population in our side of the parish and have traditionally knocked around at C and D grades underage with players generally having to
play 3 years up to fill teams.

We have also hemorrhaged players over the years to clubs outside our parish and across to the other club in our parish as they are generally a larger population
and thus a higher grade/standard.

We made a decision a number of years back to partner with our fellow parishoners and join up from U7 to minor and thus ensure that teams can be fielded at all
age groups where boys can play hurling and football at a reasonable level.



It has been hugely successful for us as a small club and means that we can hold training sessions with 14-20 boys of the same age and enter GoGames blitzs
knowing that we can have 3 teams of 6 on a good day.
The boys are playing a handy standard of hurling and football and sometimes compete well at P2 as they progress through the underage setup.



At all the GoGames we have a policy that every child plays every minute. We encourage the opposition likewise. This can result sometimes in a 6 v 5 or
7 v 6 but we are fairly clear that we do not want the opposition or ourselves to leave any child on the sideline at that a young age even as a rolling sub.

We are not in a position to leave players behind – you never know who will be a late bloomer, who will be secretary in 20 years, who will be a club sponsor,
accountant, solicitor etc.

We have worked really hard in our adult club over the last few decades with a view on helping our community and giving the best of what we can.
We’ve consistently promoted youth within our committee and have a pretty forward thinking group of people involved in building and progressing,
building and progressing...


All of the strides made has been without any support from the county board – never once have they come to us and offered help or support.
Never have the county board come to us and asked how they can help, what can we do to improve your lot? (caveat; I do expect this to be common to most clubs)



However, for Pat Horgan, Kevin O’Donovan and the rest of the executive, we are a problem….



What we put to the Steering committee
We have gone through our analysis of playing numbers and put a huge mount of work into this.
Right now we can field teams in an amalgamation at U12 by dipping into the U11s.

We will generally get 14-18 boys for a Go Games Blitz at U7 – U11 in the amalgamation. This is between 2 clubs in the one parish. Some boys are really
interested, some are just turning up because their parents are dragging them along.

For the GoGames we have been partnered with another club where we try to match the numbers of a larger club.

i.e. Country Parish A + Country Parish B = X% of larger club.
i.e. the large club might bring 35-40 players and leave 10-20 at home/training. The 2 country parishes (us and a standalone parish club) cannot
ever match the numbers of the larger clubs.

Again, and I can’t stress this enough, for Pat Horgan, Kevin O’Donovan and the rest of the executive, we are the problem??!!



Recommendation from the Steering committee
We put our case to the steering committee and to be fair it was a disaster.
Instead of any effort to figure out how they can help keep the show on the road, how they can help to promote the game or indeed any sympathy
to our plight they are intent on breaking up what we are working so hard to keep alive.

So instead of building and progressing year on year they are now intent on sending us back to the bad old days of the 80’s and 90’s where we had
years of no juvenile teams or fluting around at C and D grade.

Some of the supports/offers they put to us is that:

• “General Rule” will now allow us to use 8 year olds to supplement our U12 team.
• Why don’t ye use girls if ye are stuck
• There are less payers needed at D grade

Yes, they actually formed these sentences in their minds, opened their mouths and said them to us!!!

Today they have come back to us with their recommendations to us which they will push to be passed next Tuesday night:
We go our separate ways from u7 to u12.

What this means in reality
To have an U12 team, means that we have to use 9 year olds at a minimum and probably 8 year olds to field.

We have parents at U10 speaking of transferring inter-parish to the larger club. We only have 7 players at this age in any case.
We are under siege with a thriving underage soccer setup in East Cork and it is not going to improve with the advent of Summer Soccer.

It is absolutely distressing for the parents, children and members of of our community to be picked apart like this.

I really don’t know what we can do – the underage part of our GAA club is evaporating before our eyes and we are helpless to do anything about it.

To me, this is Kevin O’Donovan and Pat Horgan’s legacy.

Shame on you both

 

[Henrys Fonda]

Fair play to you, that is one of the best most impassioned posts I’ve ever read here.
Not to ruin your thread or take from your point but KOD will never have any legacy bar a very bad one when he leaves the job.

 

[snoppd]

Great post and hopefully the County board don't cause any damage to genuine amalgamations between small clubs that need to join up to field teams.

I do think the County board are right to try bring some more order/clarity about amalgamations.
One of the examples they gave was one amalgamation which entered three U12 teams, which does seem a bit odd. In fairness to that team maybe it just happened to be one age group with far greater number than normal which can happen once in while. There should probably be some wriggle room in the rules that allow for situation like that occurring.

I do think amalgamations shouldn't play U21, players are for the most part gone from the Juvenile sections of their clubs at stage and representing their Clubs at adult level so I think they should stick to the individual clubs at that stage.

 

[cork2030]

Fair play to you, that is one of the best most impassioned posts I’ve ever read here.
Not to ruin your thread or take from your point but KOD will never have any legacy bar a very bad one when he lives the job.

Pat Horgan the same over his treatment of Pat Ryan.

 

[red&blue]

Preamble:

I wanted to create a thread specifically about the move by Cork GAA to split up independent teams at GoGames and Rebel Og.

just for clarity, their move is to split amalgamated teams at go games unless absolutely necessary. They are not looking to split amalgamated teams at Rebel Og unless absolutely necessary

A lot of good conversation has already been captured in the County board complaints thread.
However this is singularly the biggest crisis facing my club in a long time (and I imagine other clubs) that I think it best to give the conversation a bit of space.

I’m not sure what I expect to gain from this – maybe a bit of unloading stress, ideas on what our options are or even some sympathy to our plight (yes, yes, I know…)

Firstly fair play for the post, its well thought out and full of passion and disbelief

For what its worth ill give my tuppence worth

Background:
I’m a member of one of the affected clubs and have been all my life.
I played from U-10 to Junior B and have worn the same jersey as my Grandfather, Father, Uncles, Cousins, Brothers and which my own Sons and nephews will too.
I’m fairly invested in the Admin and coaching side but have never felt so helpless about the whole thing….

Our club is playing juvenile games with another club in the same parish through GoGames and all through RebelOg.
Both have our own nurseries and have put a huge effort into modernising and building out our club facilities and presenting our club as the most attractive sporting
organisation in our side of the parish.

We have a very small population in our side of the parish and have traditionally knocked around at C and D grades underage with players generally having to
play 3 years up to fill teams.

We have also hemorrhaged players over the years to clubs outside our parish and across to the other club in our parish as they are generally a larger population
and thus a higher grade/standard.

We made a decision a number of years back to partner with our fellow parishoners and join up from U7 to minor and thus ensure that teams can be fielded at all
age groups where boys can play hurling and football at a reasonable level.



It has been hugely successful for us as a small club and means that we can hold training sessions with 14-20 boys of the same age and enter GoGames blitzs
knowing that we can have 3 teams of 6 on a good day.
The boys are playing a handy standard of hurling and football and sometimes compete well at P2 as they progress through the underage setup.



At all the GoGames we have a policy that every child plays every minute. We encourage the opposition likewise. This can result sometimes in a 6 v 5 or
7 v 6 but we are fairly clear that we do not want the opposition or ourselves to leave any child on the sideline at that a young age even as a rolling sub.

We are not in a position to leave players behind – you never know who will be a late bloomer, who will be secretary in 20 years, who will be a club sponsor,
accountant, solicitor etc.

We have worked really hard in our adult club over the last few decades with a view on helping our community and giving the best of what we can.
We’ve consistently promoted youth within our committee and have a pretty forward thinking group of people involved in building and progressing,
building and progressing...


All of the strides made has been without any support from the county board – never once have they come to us and offered help or support.
Never have the county board come to us and asked how they can help, what can we do to improve your lot? (caveat; I do expect this to be common to most clubs)



However, for Pat Horgan, Kevin O’Donovan and the rest of the executive, we are a problem….



What we put to the Steering committee
We have gone through our analysis of playing numbers and put a huge mount of work into this.
Right now we can field teams in an amalgamation at U12 by dipping into the U11s.

We will generally get 14-18 boys for a Go Games Blitz at U7 – U11 in the amalgamation. This is between 2 clubs in the one parish. Some boys are really
interested, some are just turning up because their parents are dragging them along.

For the GoGames we have been partnered with another club where we try to match the numbers of a larger club.

i.e. Country Parish A + Country Parish B = X% of larger club.
i.e. the large club might bring 35-40 players and leave 10-20 at home/training. The 2 country parishes (us and a standalone parish club) cannot
ever match the numbers of the larger clubs.

Again, and I can’t stress this enough, for Pat Horgan, Kevin O’Donovan and the rest of the executive, we are the problem??!!

Its hard to give a concrete reply as i dont know the ins and outs of the siruation but based on the numbers you have outlined above it seems ludicrous to try force ye to play seperately in go games

When you say ye get 14-18 players at the go games blitzs are these boys all on the age or a mix of younger players too?

Recommendation from the Steering committee
We put our case to the steering committee and to be fair it was a disaster.
Instead of any effort to figure out how they can help keep the show on the road, how they can help to promote the game or indeed any sympathy
to our plight they are intent on breaking up what we are working so hard to keep alive.

what makes you think they are intent on breaking ye up? im not saying your wrong but sometimes when you are forced into a corner like this it is understandably hard to see the wood from the trees

So instead of building and progressing year on year they are now intent on sending us back to the bad old days of the 80’s and 90’s where we had
years of no juvenile teams or fluting around at C and D grade.

are they trying to seperate ye at u12 to u18 too? what are yer numbers like at those ages?

Some of the supports/offers they put to us is that:

• “General Rule” will now allow us to use 8 year olds to supplement our U12 team.

ridiculous to say use 8 year olds at u12, no kid should br playing more than 2 years above his age

• Why don’t ye use girls if ye are stuck

dont they realise the girls have their own teams to play in?

• There are less payers needed at D grade

that is true but irrelevant

Yes, they actually formed these sentences in their minds, opened their mouths and said them to us!!!

Today they have come back to us with their recommendations to us which they will push to be passed next Tuesday night:
We go our separate ways from u7 to u12.

i think clubs should field in go games on their own where possible but i dont see ye being able to do that.

Do the orher club in yer amalgamation have much bigger numbers than ye?

What this means in reality
To have an U12 team, means that we have to use 9 year olds at a minimum and probably 8 year olds to field.

We have parents at U10 speaking of transferring inter-parish to the larger club. We only have 7 players at this age in any case.

this is one of yer strongest arguments, that ye will lose what little amount of players to the bigger club if ye are forced to seperate

We are under siege with a thriving underage soccer setup in East Cork and it is not going to improve with the advent of Summer Soccer.

It is absolutely distressing for the parents, children and members of of our community to be picked apart like this.

I really don’t know what we can do – the underage part of our GAA club is evaporating before our eyes and we are helpless to do anything about it.

To me, this is Kevin O’Donovan and Pat Horgan’s legacy.

Shame on you both

again i have to wonder is this being aimed at the bigger club more than ye? Have they the numbers to survive on their own and the board know that

if im right in that suspicion then maybe the solution is to ask the board to allow 3 or 4 very small clubs like yerselves to come together in an Imokilly team for Rebel Og competitions just like the initiative in Seandun this year

Its understandable to feel overwhelmed by whats happening to your club but it is imperative ye consider all available options for the good of yer players

 

[Jukka]

That's an excellent post.

Who exactly are amalgamated teams such an issue for? Who has decided that this is the major issue Cork GAA has to tackle?

Is it the clubs they're beating?

Ultimately, if your club is amalgamating, it's losing a slice of it's identify. No club will happily do that without decent reason.

 

[Henrys Fonda]

That's an excellent post.

Who exactly are amalgamated teams such an issue for? Who has decided that this is the major issue Cork GAA has to tackle?

KOD and Horgan.

Ultimately, if your club is amalgamating, it's losing a slice of it's identify. No club will happily do that without decent reason.

That always gets forgotten in debates, no club wants to amalgamate for the craic, its always a necessity

 

[omar]

Also, and I can't stress this enough, it doesn't matter if one club in the amalgamation has 20 players...if the second club has only a handful of players they need the amalgamation.

Of all the things that need work in Cork GAA, the board go after this. Idiotic is an understatement.

Fair play to the OP for a great post and I hope common sense prevails.

 

[topper]

just for clarity, their move is to split amalgamated teams at go games unless absolutely necessary. They are not looking to split amalgamated teams at Rebel Og unless absolutely necessary

Correct - challenge is that "absolutely necessary" is not clearly defined. We believe it is necessary. County board do not.
We have the local knowledge, lived experience from last 40 years and examples etc and it is still not enough. CCB are trawling forensically through numbers and looking at best case scenario planning of attendance etc. They then invoke "General Rule" and hide behind it saying that looking at roll book numbers and "General rule" allows you go down 4 years to pull a team together. (2 primary age groups)

Firstly fair play for the post, its well thought out and full of passion and disbelief

For what its worth ill give my tuppence worth

Thanks - appreciate it

Its hard to give a concrete reply as i dont know the ins and outs of the siruation but based on the numbers you have outlined above it seems ludicrous to try force ye to play seperately in go games

When you say ye get 14-18 players at the go games blitzs are these boys all on the age or a mix of younger players too?

All on age. So the GoGames calendar is sent out at start of year and has U7-U11 fixtures laid out for each individual age group. Along with the specifications on rules, equipment, playing field and general conduct. We're fairly conscious of Physical, Emotional and Aptitude differences and avoid pulling boys up from an age group to flesh out the numbers. The range in ability and size can be huge at U10. Not to mind ng out the age groups.

what makes you think they are intent on breaking ye up? im not saying your wrong but sometimes when you are forced into a corner like this it is understandably hard to see the wood from the trees

We see the intent coming from the manner they are conducting this exercise through the CCB meetings, the messaging, the absolute refusal to answer any emails we have sent seeking clarifications etc, the tone of the meeting held with them at 6.30pm on Friday of bank Holiday, the feedback through all channels in CCB that this is a personal quest for KOD and PH.

are they trying to seperate ye at u12 to u18 too? what are yer numbers like at those ages?

U-12 yes but not higher as we have brutal numbers there. We hold our own with the older club at U18 and U13 with 9 and 8 players on the age.
We have a problem in the middle section though with U16 - 3, U15 - 2, U14 - 1.

ridiculous to say use 8 year olds at u12, no kid should br playing more than 2 years above his age

yup

dont they realise the girls have their own teams to play in?

that is true but irrelevant

i think clubs should field in go games on their own where possible but i dont see ye being able to do that.

Do the orher club in yer amalgamation have much bigger numbers than ye?

Yeah, general rule of thumb is 2:1. That's across general membership, playing numbers (adult and juvenile), population, school size etc.

this is one of yer strongest arguments, that ye will lose what little amount of players to the bigger club if ye are forced to seperate

agreed - not only that but the noise around it. The boys are coming home from school with stories of XYZ and it's not a good shadow to have hanging over them.

again i have to wonder is this being aimed at the bigger club more than ye? Have they the numbers to survive on their own and the board know that

That's a possibility - it seems like they want to make a statement and maintain the old order. Maybe KOD needs to implement a scorched earth policy to tackle this? I don't really know.
It does this seem that PH has this fever dream of a return to Maidens dancing at the crossroads and Midleton at the top of the tree in east Cork and everyone else being shite?

if im right in that suspicion then maybe the solution is to ask the board to allow 3 or 4 very small clubs like yerselves to come together in an Imokilly team for Rebel Og competitions just like the initiative in Seandun this year

Not very comfortable with that to be fair. What we have is working - we are sweating the hell out of the assets we have though!
i.e. we are coaching the boys the best we can and producing some good quality players from a shallow pool.
The club identity of each adult club is now incredibly strong - you see plenty children in our side wearing replica adult club jerseys and our club flags flying everywhere which was never a thing 15 years ago.

The majority of the boys playing GAA in the amalgamated team are all playing soccer too in the same team along with all that goes with living in a rural parish

Its understandable to feel overwhelmed by whats happening to your club but it is imperative ye consider all available options for the good of yer players

agreed

 

[topper]

Fair play to you, that is one of the best most impassioned posts I’ve ever read here.
Not to ruin your thread or take from your point but KOD will never have any legacy bar a very bad one when he leaves the job.

Thanks. I think one of the things that stings for a lot of people is that KOD was perceived as a progressive, forward thinking guy, with a plan and the conviction to improve Corks lot when he was coming in to place. I know that I did.