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  #1  
Old 03-05-2012, 10:28 PM
poulgorm poulgorm is offline
 
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Default Water Charges...Do You Realise...

The implications of a commercial semi state body taking over the water provision system in this country?

It means that we will have 2 monthly water bills, on a par with our electricity and gas bills - amounting to at least €1,000 per annum. Commercial semi state organisations are obliged to make a profit (or at least, break even).

BGE took over the gas companies (Dublin, Cork, Waterford, Limerick & Clonmel), which were broke. Over a period of 20 years, they replaced the distribution system in those areas, extended the grid to many new areas and built a transmission system from scratch - an enormous investment. This is entirely funded by their customers (domestic and industrial/commercial). No grants from the state - some once-off grants from the EU for interconnectors to Scotland.

Now BGE will take over the water distribution system. The water grid is many times the size of the gas grid - it extends from Malin head to Allihies. And the pipes are in as bad a condition as the gas grid when BGE took over the town gas companies.

The investment in replacement pipelines will be huge. Currently, when a Co Council constructs a new pipeline (or replaces an old, leaking one), the money comes from central government - not from local council taxes (each individual capital investment scheme has to be approved by central government officials).

So, if normal commercial rules apply to this new state water company, it is the customers who will have to fund the total cost of the provision of water.

Central government will treat water the same way as they treat gas: the new Water Board will have to be self financing.

Hence water bills will be on a par with energy bills in a few years time. Interesting times ahead
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  #2  
Old 04-05-2012, 07:29 AM
How bad boy How bad boy is offline
 
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I pay £280 a year to Thames Water in the UK.

Your €1k might be over the top, but it's how it works in a lot of other countries.
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  #3  
Old 04-05-2012, 08:14 AM
johnmcork johnmcork is offline
 
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I met a bloke who was complaining about the water charge. He had told me he grew up on a farm and was fretting about it.
I said ye surely have a well and it doesn't apply to you.
He told me he was on the mains.
He's watering his cattle off the mains. For free.
That kind of stuff cannot continue.
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  #4  
Old 04-05-2012, 08:58 AM
poulgorm poulgorm is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by How bad boy View Post
I pay £280 a year to Thames Water in the UK.

Your €1k might be over the top, but it's how it works in a lot of other countries.
Our population density is so much lower, it will lead to much higher costs per dwelling. Also, our water grid (and our treatment plants) are in a worse state than that of the UK - so the capital spending required here, relative to the number of dwellings will be much higher than the UK.

€1,000 per annum may not be far off the mark at all.

Last edited by poulgorm; 04-05-2012 at 10:08 AM..
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  #5  
Old 04-05-2012, 09:17 AM
How bad boy How bad boy is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poulgorm View Post
Our population density is so much lower, it will lead to much higher costs per dwelling. Also, out water grid (and our treatment plants) are in a worse state than that of the UK - so the capital spending required here, relative to the number of dwellings will be much higher than the UK.

€1,000 per annum may not be far off the mark at all.
How else will it be paid for then?

Out of general taxation, I guess?
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  #6  
Old 04-05-2012, 10:02 AM
Archie Archie is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnmcork View Post
I met a bloke who was complaining about the water charge. He had told me he grew up on a farm and was fretting about it.
I said ye surely have a well and it doesn't apply to you.
He told me he was on the mains.
He's watering his cattle off the mains. For free.
That kind of stuff cannot continue.
I bet his cattle have lovely shiny teeth.

This new water company will create a load of new jobs, increase cash liquidity, fix the leaky mains, and with the help of God it will not be based in Dublin so it help some other part of Ireland. Given that it'll be a bordgais company it may easily become and new employer in Cork.

Bring it on is what I say.
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  #7  
Old 04-05-2012, 10:03 AM
Rebelred Rebelred is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnmcork View Post
I met a bloke who was complaining about the water charge. He had told me he grew up on a farm and was fretting about it.
I said ye surely have a well and it doesn't apply to you.
He told me he was on the mains.
He's watering his cattle off the mains. For free.
That kind of stuff cannot continue.
There would be some very rare exceptions where farms are connected to the mains or group schemes. Most farms would have one if not two wells.
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  #8  
Old 04-05-2012, 10:07 AM
poulgorm poulgorm is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by How bad boy View Post
How else will it be paid for then?

Out of general taxation, I guess?
That's the trick: it will transfer from general taxation to 2 monthly bills. Without any reduction in general taxation, of course.

It will lead to customers paying the full cost (operational & capital) of water, without any reduction in general taxation.

It will also catch all the people who reside in local authority housing (like they also have to pay for gas & electricity). Also, people who live in private rented accommodation
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  #9  
Old 04-05-2012, 10:10 AM
poulgorm poulgorm is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archie View Post
This new water company will create a load of new jobs, increase cash liquidity, fix the leaky mains, and with the help of God it will not be based in Dublin so it help some other part of Ireland. Given that it'll be a bordgais company it may easily become and new employer in Cork.

Bring it on is what I say.
I am not saying that it is not the way to go.

Just be aware of how much it will cost you every year.
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  #10  
Old 04-05-2012, 10:27 AM
How bad boy How bad boy is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poulgorm View Post
That's the trick: it will transfer from general taxation to 2 monthly bills. Without any reduction in general taxation, of course.

It will lead to customers paying the full cost (operational & capital) of water, without any reduction in general taxation.

It will also catch all the people who reside in local authority housing (like they also have to pay for gas & electricity). Also, people who live in private rented accommodation
I don't doubt that it's a fiscally regressive move.

But while it won't decrease general taxation, it should reduce the deficit somewhat. Not by much, mind, but somewhat.


There does seem to be a ridiculous divide though between domestic and industrial and agricultural pricing of water.

Also a good article on a related area here in this, which both highlights the issues and benefits of privatisation:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/05...ergy_analysis/


The political pressures resulting from such privatisation usually tend to leave you with the worst outcome of all, with the heavy regulation leading to the level of bureaucracy that privatisation is supposed to reduce, added to the privatisation of profits, leading to resentment and, sometimes, depending on how the regulation is termed, worse service for higher fees.
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