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  #31  
Old 02-08-2012, 09:58 PM
Earth Repair Earth Repair is offline
 
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Default @Stacky and Corcaigh 32

oHi, thankyou for your intelligent and well argued responses. I was delighted to get something other than insults and assertions. I would be delighted to engage further with you both on this issue. I will be happy to go further into any of the points I raised in my contribution or to respond to your claims about Shell acting within the laws of the land (a dubious concept in itself, especially as applied in Belmullet district court but there you go).
Have either of you been up to visit Erris since the project began over 10 years ago? Have you talked to or got to know any of the people living in the area who are directly affected by the project, on either side of the conflict?
Do you have any experience with other situations of this nature where large companies have set up to operate in an area against the will of the people livingthere? From the tones of your responses I am guessing you have not but I am willing to be proved wrong.

In my previous post I referred to three parallels between Shell in Erris and fracking. These parallels run beyond both these issues and to understand what is currently going on and be able to respond to it effectively it is necessary to grasp this.
The most important is the appropriation issue since everything else follows from it.
Since the early 1970s and probably much earlier the real assets of Ireland, (along with many other countries around the world) have been systematically stripped. To cut a very long story short . When Ireland joined the EEC in 1973 our fishing rights were signed away in exchange for financial support and the dubious benefits. We gave away something real and solid that if managed sensibly could have sustained us indefinitely in exchange for an illusion.
Over the next 20 years or so changes were made to our laws and structures to facilitate the insanely generous deal that Shell now have with us. Effectively, they take our gas and oil. We buy it back off them.
There are moves afoot by foreign entities to gain control over large tracts of Ireland’s landmass and seafloor through mechanisms like International Forestry Funds, prospecting licences and behind closed doors sales which could give away our aquifers and water basins along with our timber and whatever minerals or fossil fuels are in the ground. In return for all this we will receive electronic blips in a bank account somewhere that mean fuck all without something solid to back them. We will also receive the effects of the ecological devastation that this will cause on our landscapes, in our water and air and on our minds and souls.

Today I visited a site in Tipperary where a North American company are conducting test drilling for zinc and lead, a process that consists of taking core samples for inspection. If these results prove favourable for the company and it carries out its plans the whole area will be mined. I do not know what agreement there is with the company but it is unlikely to be favourable to us. Industry of this type cannot be carried out without causing damage to geology, water tables, landscape and communities.

In this type of situation it can be irrelevant what the law says because companies like Shell have the time and power to manipulate national and local laws to suit themselves. Anyone attempting to fight a legal battle is at a huge disadvantage, which is why we will see more and more direct action as people shift the struggle onto different ground over a myriad of different local and national issues that all have the same roots.
We have a choice at this point……
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  #32  
Old 03-08-2012, 12:11 AM
francomcdaddy francomcdaddy is offline
 
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Default why can't we all get along

Now that times are tough etc... things will be pushed through for Euro's rather than the greater good!
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  #33  
Old 03-08-2012, 08:04 AM
Stacky Stacky is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earth Repair View Post
oHi, thankyou for your intelligent and well argued responses. I was delighted to get something other than insults and assertions. I would be delighted to engage further with you both on this issue. I will be happy to go further into any of the points I raised in my contribution or to respond to your claims about Shell acting within the laws of the land (a dubious concept in itself, especially as applied in Belmullet district court but there you go).
Have either of you been up to visit Erris since the project began over 10 years ago? Have you talked to or got to know any of the people living in the area who are directly affected by the project, on either side of the conflict?
Do you have any experience with other situations of this nature where large companies have set up to operate in an area against the will of the people livingthere? From the tones of your responses I am guessing you have not but I am willing to be proved wrong.

In my previous post I referred to three parallels between Shell in Erris and fracking. These parallels run beyond both these issues and to understand what is currently going on and be able to respond to it effectively it is necessary to grasp this.
The most important is the appropriation issue since everything else follows from it.
Since the early 1970s and probably much earlier the real assets of Ireland, (along with many other countries around the world) have been systematically stripped. To cut a very long story short . When Ireland joined the EEC in 1973 our fishing rights were signed away in exchange for financial support and the dubious benefits. We gave away something real and solid that if managed sensibly could have sustained us indefinitely in exchange for an illusion.
Over the next 20 years or so changes were made to our laws and structures to facilitate the insanely generous deal that Shell now have with us. Effectively, they take our gas and oil. We buy it back off them.
There are moves afoot by foreign entities to gain control over large tracts of Ireland’s landmass and seafloor through mechanisms like International Forestry Funds, prospecting licences and behind closed doors sales which could give away our aquifers and water basins along with our timber and whatever minerals or fossil fuels are in the ground. In return for all this we will receive electronic blips in a bank account somewhere that mean fuck all without something solid to back them. We will also receive the effects of the ecological devastation that this will cause on our landscapes, in our water and air and on our minds and souls.

Today I visited a site in Tipperary where a North American company are conducting test drilling for zinc and lead, a process that consists of taking core samples for inspection. If these results prove favourable for the company and it carries out its plans the whole area will be mined. I do not know what agreement there is with the company but it is unlikely to be favourable to us. Industry of this type cannot be carried out without causing damage to geology, water tables, landscape and communities.

In this type of situation it can be irrelevant what the law says because companies like Shell have the time and power to manipulate national and local laws to suit themselves. Anyone attempting to fight a legal battle is at a huge disadvantage, which is why we will see more and more direct action as people shift the struggle onto different ground over a myriad of different local and national issues that all have the same roots.
We have a choice at this point……
If you think that Shell are not acting within the law or are making up their own laws you can phone or meet your solicitor this morning and take out a high court injunction requesting that all works be stopped immediately.
http://www.mlaw.ie/news/injunctions-an-outline

If you think that Shell are flouting planning laws and not complying with planning and licences granted you can contact building control in Mayo
County Council http://www.mayococo.ie/en/Services/BuildingControl/

Also feel free to set up an oil and gas exploration company to sell oil and gas to the Irish state at cost. Just raise around 2 billion for speculation and exploration costs. (A seismic survey ship costs $1,000,000 per,day). The Irish Government or any other Government cannot afford to do so as the successful strike rate is 1 in 20 approximately and is not in the gambling.


In the meantime you do not want any natural resourses touched as yoi sit in your tee pee on a bog watching the contrails of jet planes taking our greatest asset abroad to work in mines and oil fields from Canada to Australia.

Remember "electronic blips" in you bank account pay for your roll ups' hemp shorts and lentils.


You cannot eat scenery (and no Exxon Mobil are not planning to drill in Killarney National Park before you get your dreadlocks trapped in the toaster)

Let us know how you get on in the High Court and Building Control Mayo County Council.
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  #34  
Old 03-08-2012, 09:44 AM
INFERNO INFERNO is offline
 
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Shell are a right shower, as are whoever gave them the go ahead.

Just because its 'legal' doesn't mean shit.
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  #35  
Old 03-08-2012, 10:17 AM
Stacky Stacky is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by INFERNO View Post
Shell are a right shower, as are whoever gave them the go ahead.

Just because its 'legal' doesn't mean shit.
Legal means everything as it happens
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  #36  
Old 03-08-2012, 10:51 AM
How bad boy How bad boy is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earth Repair View Post
oHi, thankyou for your intelligent and well argued responses. I was delighted to get something other than insults and assertions. I would be delighted to engage further with you both on this issue. I will be happy to go further into any of the points I raised in my contribution or to respond to your claims about Shell acting within the laws of the land (a dubious concept in itself, especially as applied in Belmullet district court but there you go).
I've not mentioned anything about it in this thread, but with regards to the Shell dispute, I wouldn't take a particularly strong position on how legal it is likely to be. Natural resource companies are not known for their willingness to stick to the letter or spirit of the law.

That said, I doubt they are deliberately breaking the law, legal departments in such companies are notoriously conservative. But at the same time, I wouldn't be even slightly surprised if there's some technicality they've missed, or overlooked with which they get hammered.

For me, the more important question is whether there are legitimate objections or not, should this development be shut down, legalistic arguments aside.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Earth Repair View Post
Have either of you been up to visit Erris since the project began over 10 years ago? Have you talked to or got to know any of the people living in the area who are directly affected by the project, on either side of the conflict?
I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in doing so as I really don't want to poke my nose into a situation with which I have no involvement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Earth Repair View Post
Do you have any experience with other situations of this nature where large companies have set up to operate in an area against the will of the people livingthere? From the tones of your responses I am guessing you have not but I am willing to be proved wrong.
A small bit in my professional life, but very little.

The most controversial place I've done business is Foxconn in Shenzhen (although I've worked with their branches in Beijing and Taiwan too).

Been involved in some internal campaigning in Nokia to get rid of tantalum capacitors in phones due to damage caused by illegal mining for coltan in Congo, although it proved virtually impossible to eliminate them completely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Earth Repair View Post
In my previous post I referred to three parallels between Shell in Erris and fracking. These parallels run beyond both these issues and to understand what is currently going on and be able to respond to it effectively it is necessary to grasp this.
The most important is the appropriation issue since everything else follows from it.
I disagree. It's like saying the most important thing about a house is who owns it. In some way, it's true, in others, it's entirely irrelevant. I rent my house, so I do not own it. But I get the benefit for it every day, for significantly less than it would cost to buy it. It's where I live, and, on a day-to-day basis, I really don't care much about who owns it. That is only an issue when it comes to moving, but it's not that big a problem, I prefer it this way.
You can look at resource ownership rights in the same way. You can either own, license or tax them, and if it is deemed that one of those options provides a better return than the others, then the issue of ownership is pretty much unimportant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Earth Repair View Post
Since the early 1970s and probably much earlier the real assets of Ireland, (along with many other countries around the world) have been systematically stripped. To cut a very long story short .
Ireland's total assets have risen greatly in value since. But I'll pull on this thread in a second.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Earth Repair View Post
When Ireland joined the EEC in 1973 our fishing rights were signed away in exchange for financial support and the dubious benefits. We gave away something real and solid that if managed sensibly could have sustained us indefinitely in exchange for an illusion.
What do you mean by "sustained us"? Kept Ireland, a country that doesn't much care for fish, in fish for an eternity?
I have a bream?

A pollock in every pot?

We aren't exactly verging on the edge of famine...

But yes, Ireland essentially sold those rights. And got a decent price for them at the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Earth Repair View Post
Over the next 20 years or so changes were made to our laws and structures to facilitate the insanely generous deal that Shell now have with us. Effectively, they take our gas and oil. We buy it back off them.
Not quite, but anyway...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Earth Repair View Post
There are moves afoot by foreign entities to gain control over large tracts of Ireland’s landmass and seafloor through mechanisms like International Forestry Funds, prospecting licences and behind closed doors sales which could give away our aquifers and water basins along with our timber and whatever minerals or fossil fuels are in the ground.
Hmm, right...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Earth Repair View Post
In return for all this we will receive electronic blips in a bank account somewhere that mean fuck all without something solid to back them. We will also receive the effects of the ecological devastation that this will cause on our landscapes, in our water and air and on our minds and souls.
That's not true.

And nobody is actually going to move Ireland's landscapes, water or air anywhere any time soon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Earth Repair View Post
Today I visited a site in Tipperary where a North American company are conducting test drilling for zinc and lead, a process that consists of taking core samples for inspection. If these results prove favourable for the company and it carries out its plans the whole area will be mined. I do not know what agreement there is with the company but it is unlikely to be favourable to us. Industry of this type cannot be carried out without causing damage to geology, water tables, landscape and communities.
So you assume the deal is bad for Ireland.
Why would someone allow it then?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Earth Repair View Post
In this type of situation it can be irrelevant what the law says because companies like Shell have the time and power to manipulate national and local laws to suit themselves. Anyone attempting to fight a legal battle is at a huge disadvantage, which is why we will see more and more direct action as people shift the struggle onto different ground over a myriad of different local and national issues that all have the same roots.
We have a choice at this point……
So what do you propose Ireland should do? Halt all natural resource extraction, or create national resource companies?
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  #37  
Old 03-08-2012, 11:13 AM
Stacky Stacky is offline
 
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Originally Posted by How bad boy View Post
So what do you propose Ireland should do? Halt all natural resource extraction, or create national resource companies?


Ironically our Socialist hero of the working peeple Joe Higgins (tormentor of big business, gamblers, speculators ) wants the Irish State to set up an oil and gas exploration company investing billions that we do not have gambling on finding resources at the bottom of the ocean and take all the risk.
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  #38  
Old 03-08-2012, 11:26 AM
How bad boy How bad boy is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Stacky View Post
Ironically our Socialist hero of the working peeple Joe Higgins (tormentor of big business, gamblers, speculators ) wants the Irish State to set up an oil and gas exploration company investing billions that we do not have gambling on finding resources at the bottom of the ocean and take all the risk.
Which is lovely for him.


But then again, one of the most shameful examples of ecological disaster in Ireland was the nationalised Irish Steel.

Bord Na Mona doesn't give a shit they're destroying irreplaceable valuable peat land needlessly.

I hold no store by the idea that somehow governments are better at environmental protection. Or employee welfare. Or making money for the taxpayer in industries for that matter.

Ryanair has made far, far more money for the Irish government than Aer Lingus over its shorter lifetime.

And having witnessed first hand the difference between Foxconn, a Taiwanese private company, and Chinese national companies, I have no doubt whatsoever whom I would want to work for. Which explains the massive queues out the front of the factory gate every morning of people looking for a job...
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  #39  
Old 03-08-2012, 12:24 PM
Stacky Stacky is offline
 
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Add I.F.I to that list.

Look at Irish Rail and the Western Rail corridor debacle where it would cost the state less to hire a limousine with Champagne included for the 10 or so daily passengers that use it.

H.S.E. ? nightmare.

Bus Eireann is swallowing up massive sums with no improvement in services.

They could not get e-voting machines right so keep them away from oil and gas exploration please.
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  #40  
Old 03-08-2012, 12:30 PM
How bad boy How bad boy is offline
 
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Add I.F.I to that list.

Look at Irish Rail and the Western Rail corridor debacle where it would cost the state less to hire a limousine with Champagne included for the 10 or so daily passengers that use it.

H.S.E. ? nightmare.

Bus Eireann is swallowing up massive sums with no improvement in services.

They could not get e-voting machines right so keep them away from oil and gas exploration please.
To be fair though, there are some decent semi-state companies in Ireland, but they're not in the majority.

State owned companies tend to be, by in large, awful. The politcial and economic control are in exactly the same hands. So when you tell them to abide by some form of regulation, and they ignore it, it tends to get overlooked by their political masters.


There needs to be a divide between government and industry. Closing that divide is rarely a good idea.
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