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  #71  
Old 28-02-2012, 02:41 PM
Corcaigh32 Corcaigh32 is offline
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Don't see it poulgorm.
Labour will be in trouble if they are not careful.
Personally I think we need a whole new politics but then that's not easily achieved.
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  #72  
Old 28-02-2012, 02:44 PM
How bad boy How bad boy is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Langeroo View Post
Right, so you're an admitted FF basher.
But have you anything to contribute?
Is there anything more to contribute?

Corrupt, inept and visionless.

The party of the power, for the sake of power.

Now that there's no power, well, they're meaningless.

Their party slogan should be "I knew your father" or "Errah, the other crowd are just as bad and, shure, aren't they just a shower of West Brits?"
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  #73  
Old 28-02-2012, 02:51 PM
liam2me liam2me is offline
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Originally Posted by How bad boy View Post
Compared to Sinn Fein, they were incredibly moderate.

They took the classic liberal approach, something that is now all but absent from Irish politics, but was pretty much the default political position by those grasping for power pre-crash.

McDowell was unusual, as he broke with the party's socially liberal approach, which I see as one of two things contributing to the downfall of the party, the other being Harney's love of FF. The party would have been far better to have dumped her. McDowell's approach was in direct contradiction to the very reason for founding the party, opposition to FF's social conservatism.

They most closely represent my biases, now there is no other party besides FG on the right (although they were socially leftist).

That's a vacuum that will be filled, and it's unlikely to be filled by a happy-happy rightist party.
This was the very reason I called them cunts. McD4 proposed plenty of legislation that suited him and his cronies that killed rural & tourist Ireland, one of them being the banning of U-18s in bars & restaurants after 9.

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Originally Posted by Langeroo View Post
Did he? And you haven't provided a link to this speech because? (full text please)!
As opposition finance spokesman he attacked government finance policy. That was his job. Show me where he presented a better option and I'll give him credit.



You have made these and other assumptions about my politics, but the truth is you don't know anything about me other than I am not prepared to accept the current government's mantra of "it's all their fault". It's not. If you insist on going down the blame game road, there is plenty to go around.

FF drove the bus therefore FF are primarily responsible! No argument! You misquote me with your "hapless bus driver" interpretation, and you add to the problem attacking me for not giving your party in government the kind of blind support that you appear to give them. Blind support for FF was probably as much to blame as anything else, and blindly following FG is every bit as dangerous.

Right now we are in a lousy economic and political situation. The only way out is the painful road that both this government and its predecessor have taken. If you want to blame FF for irresponsible government then you have to blame FG/Lab for obstructing them with reckless promises (e.g., Kenny on Roscommon Hospital, Quinn on Education) when FF finally saw the light.

If you want to blame FF for being incompetent, then you have to question the competence of the then opposition that couldn't unseat them. Ruairi Quinn's "get the bastards out" and Michael Noonan's "Alice in Bertieland" come to mind as less than compelling arguments for change.

In fact it is this kind of hatred and derision that is the most dangerous thing facing the country today;





Last weekend's poll said 1 in 6 voters still support Fianna Fail, other scapegoats are Bankers, Developers, Builders, Regulators, Lawyers, and Public servants, all of whom can count wrongdoers among their rank. If you didn't hear it Shane Ross said on Morning Ireland last October that he would hang every Banker from the nearest lamppost (http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1025/morningireland.html). We have about 50,000 of them, and perhaps he'll progress down the list from there.

With a member of our national parliament openly calling for lynchings on state owned national radio, I think it is time we all reflected on our language!
Not sure why you've quoted me, but I can't disagree with a lot of what you've said and I despise FF and have done since before the crash
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  #74  
Old 28-02-2012, 03:04 PM
How bad boy How bad boy is offline
 
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Originally Posted by liam2me View Post
This was the very reason I called them cunts. McD4 proposed plenty of legislation that suited him and his cronies that killed rural & tourist Ireland, one of them being the banning of U-18s in bars & restaurants after 9.
Fair enough.
McD wasn't what the party was supposed to have represented, but i would agree with you on your assessment of him.

There's actually a decent summation of what the party was originally founded on, in the Wiki on them:

The breakaways were dissatisfied with the policies of existing parties, which they viewed as being insufficiently liberal, both economically and on social issues such as divorce and contraception. In Ireland in 1985, when personal income above £7,300 per annum was taxed at 60 percent, the country's national debt was 104 percent of GDP, unemployment was 17.3 percent, and the Catholic Church largely dictated the mainstream parties' socially conservative positions on moral issues, the Progressive Democrats' liberal reformist agenda was considered especially radical.


They were considered to take a more principled stance against the sort of "Galway Races" type of politics.

Pity they were taken in by FF. They should have stayed the hell out of that coalition.

Like the Lib Dems now (my current party of choice...), they were taken down by acting as blockers and a dumping ground for all the worst policies of the party of power.
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  #75  
Old 28-02-2012, 03:07 PM
Corcaigh32 Corcaigh32 is offline
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Description of the PDs from the early 90's from a student in UCC (not me).

The PDs are FFers who aren't sound on the national question i.e. FGers.
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  #76  
Old 28-02-2012, 03:24 PM
How bad boy How bad boy is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Corcaigh32 View Post
Description of the PDs from the early 90's from a student in UCC (not me).

The PDs are FFers who aren't sound on the national question i.e. FGers.
I would say they don't give a shit about the "national question" as you would conceive of it.

My approach is that in theory, I would like 32 counties, but really, I don't care that much. I also realise that half the people living in the 6 counties are very much opposed to joining the other 26, so it's an entirely moot point as to what questions we should ask on it. Until such point as they want to join the republic, leave them to decide what they want to do themselves.


My understanding is that, basically, that is the FG and the PD position.

But there's an awful lot more to politics than the "national question".

FF are a socially conservative party that were forced to liberalise.
The PDs were a liberal party that were forced to become conservative.

FF were the party of disastrous national champions, with an economic record that is best described as "spotty", and an economic outlook of "will it get us elected?"

On the other hand, the PDs were a bit idealist, but at least you know what their policies were likely to be at times other than the election...
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  #77  
Old 28-02-2012, 03:36 PM
Corcaigh32 Corcaigh32 is offline
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Sorry hbb - I meant that tongue in cheek and definitely in the politics and context of the time.
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  #78  
Old 28-02-2012, 03:40 PM
Langeroo Langeroo is offline
 
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Originally Posted by How bad boy View Post
Pity they were taken in by FF. They should have stayed the hell out of that coalition.
But isn't that always what happens to the smaller party in coalition? Labour were down to 10% in the weekend's poll; After the PDs were wiped out in '07 the Greens took their place as junior coalition turkey voting for Christmas.

And this brings up an interesting scenario that falls on its feet into this "future of FF" thread.

What happens to FF if they're the junior coalition partner?
To SF?
To FG?
To Labour?

Be careful what you wish for!
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  #79  
Old 28-02-2012, 03:43 PM
Corcaigh32 Corcaigh32 is offline
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There won't be an FF.

FG-Lab will hold on or FG with independents, Lowry, Ross, that doctor fella, the hospital whip deniers............
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  #80  
Old 28-02-2012, 03:46 PM
How bad boy How bad boy is offline
 
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well, if the total destruction of a junior party is the usual position for coalition, then it would be the one and only upside to the scenario you describe
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