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  #35011  
Old 22-07-2019, 08:41 PM
gougane gougane is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Killyoursons View Post
I'd say a crucial part of work rate is making runs to let you do those things - getting close enough to get the hook or tackle in, tracking your opponent's run off the ball, making the run to provide a passing option for your teammate or cover him if he's one on one, etc.
The most obvious factor is fitness, but there's a mental aspect to it as well, and imo an aspect of organisation - players knowing what they need to do and where they need to be on the field in order to do it. In a well-coached team players will know how to time their supporting runs to receive the pass and break the line, or when to drop back ten yards to fight for the breaking ball. In terms of tackling and competing for possession, it's crucial that the team knows where to really hound the opposition and where to stand off a bit. That's why top teams will flood the middle of the field, to make sure they are not outnumbered and to be able to get players around the ball very quickly to swarm over the opposition. Limerick gave a masterclass in the Munster final, and Kk have been doing it for years.
Work rate seems to be defined as the work a player does when his team doesn’t have the ball. To me chasing after a player and hooking him are both part of a player’s work rate. I don’t understand how chasing a player is work rate but hooking him isn’t. If a player works hard chasing after players throughout a game but instead of hooking them fouls them does that player have a high work rate?
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  #35012  
Old 22-07-2019, 08:49 PM
Killyoursons Killyoursons is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Coach and Six View Post
Really interesting reading killyoursons. One of the best posts here in a while.

I've been disillusioned looking at Facebook posts on the examiner, echo and Cork hurling supporters group. They're all short brain farts. It's great there's scope for longer detailed posts here. Makes the loss easier to take when you can read some good intelligent analysis from fans themselves. Well done m8.
Cheers.
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  #35013  
Old 22-07-2019, 08:58 PM
Killyoursons Killyoursons is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gougane View Post
Work rate seems to be defined as the work a player does when his team doesn’t have the ball. To me chasing after a player and hooking him are both part of a player’s work rate. I don’t understand how chasing a player is work rate but hooking him isn’t. If a player works hard chasing after players throughout a game but instead of hooking them fouls them does that player have a high work rate?
I'd say work rate also includes things you do when your team has possession, e.g., forwards making decoy runs or support runs to give passing options to the man with the ball. Maybe that's not how the phrase 'work rate' is always used, but to my mind a player has to work hard whether his team have the ball or not.

I'm not sure whether we disagree about chasing and hooking. Like I said, I'm relaxed enough about how people want to use the term 'work rate'. I would say the player is working hard by chasing down his opponent in order to get the hook in. If the same player is working hard to try to make tackles but is constantly fouling, then I'd be inclined to say that he has the right work rate but lacks either the technique to tackle properly or the composure to not tackle rashly - either way, for all his hard work he's probably a liability to his teammates.
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  #35014  
Old 22-07-2019, 09:08 PM
red&blue red&blue is offline
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Originally Posted by gougane View Post
Surely workrate is competing for every ball, supporting the players around you and tackling. If it is not these things then what is it?
Workrate is constant movement and being involved in the game, or putting yourself in the right position to be in the game.
Physicality is fighting like a dog for every ball, and if you can't win the ball its ensuring your opponent doesn't either.
Tackling is an art, knowing how to position yourself when your opponent has the ball so you can either halt his run, or hook, block or flick the ball away from him.

Apart from one or two players we don't lack workrate but we have serious issues with physicality and tackling
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  #35015  
Old 22-07-2019, 09:20 PM
gougane gougane is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killyoursons View Post
I'd say work rate also includes things you do when your team has possession, e.g., forwards making decoy runs or support runs to give passing options to the man with the ball. Maybe that's not how the phrase 'work rate' is always used, but to my mind a player has to work hard whether his team have the ball or not.

I'm not sure whether we disagree about chasing and hooking. Like I said, I'm relaxed enough about how people want to use the term 'work rate'. I would say the player is working hard by chasing down his opponent in order to get the hook in. If the same player is working hard to try to make tackles but is constantly fouling, then I'd be inclined to say that he has the right work rate but lacks either the technique to tackle properly or the composure to not tackle rashly - either way, for all his hard work he's probably a liability to his teammates.
I was replying to red&blue's post which seemed to suggest that tackling and work rate were separate things. My understanding would be that tackling is an important part of a player's work rate.
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  #35016  
Old 22-07-2019, 09:27 PM
gougane gougane is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red&blue View Post
Workrate is constant movement and being involved in the game, or putting yourself in the right position to be in the game.
Physicality is fighting like a dog for every ball, and if you can't win the ball its ensuring your opponent doesn't either.
Tackling is an art, knowing how to position yourself when your opponent has the ball so you can either halt his run, or hook, block or flick the ball away from him.

Apart from one or two players we don't lack workrate but we have serious issues with physicality and tackling
Surely, red&blue, tackling a player is being involved in the game.

By the way your definition of the art of tackling is very good. The tricky part is how to coach it.
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  #35017  
Old 22-07-2019, 09:27 PM
red&blue red&blue is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gougane View Post
I was replying to red&blue's post which seemed to suggest that tackling and work rate were separate things. My understanding would be that tackling is an important part of a player's work rate.
Tackling would be a consequence of work rate in my book, like someone said earlier if a player works hard but constantly fouls his work rate is high but his tackling is poor
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  #35018  
Old 22-07-2019, 09:28 PM
red&blue red&blue is offline
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Originally Posted by gougane View Post
Surely, red&blue, tackling a player is being involved in the game.

By the way your definition of the art of tackling is very good. The tricky part is how to coach it.
Of course it is, but its not workrate

Its easy to coach someone how to tackle properly, but yes its very technical and time consuming. Donal O Grady is the master of the tackle technique
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  #35019  
Old 22-07-2019, 09:36 PM
Horse of Gold Horse of Gold is offline
 
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Middle 8 needs major surgery I feel

Looking at the 8 that started across the last day

Fitz Cooper Coleman are the only certainty’s for next year I feel

Ellis prob gets in by default

I like Kearney but that whole half forward line needs a shake up

Interesting times ahead regardless and a long winter to be tossing ideas out - here’s hoping the 21s can give us something to shout about tomorrow
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  #35020  
Old 22-07-2019, 09:41 PM
gougane gougane is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red&blue View Post
Of course it is, but its not workrate

Its easy to coach someone how to tackle properly, but yes its very technical and time consuming. Donal O Grady is the master of the tackle technique
In what way is it easy to coach someone how to tackle properly?
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