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  #11  
Old 28-01-2006, 08:05 PM
Cyprus Avenue Cyprus Avenue is offline
 
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In response to Drop-D:

Very few people would have been aware of Lotus Lullaby or Rulers when they would have played at the IMRO Showcase.

In fact last year, (and i'm open to correction here) it was only Lotus Lullaby's 3rd gig ever!
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  #12  
Old 28-01-2006, 09:59 PM
drop d drop d is offline
 
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Ok, guys.

I dont want to be all overly negative, and this aint a crusade.....
I do what i do because of percieved ineptitudes of other organisations, and perhaps i have gone down this path because of my many long and varied dealing with some of these organisations.

TBH royalties are a worldwide pheonomina, and its the venues + establishments / stations that pay the bands thru liscensing.
Dont get me wrong, its important that bands recieve their dues, and kudo's to any org that helps out that process (NOTE: that aspect of imro was never in question by me....) be it collection and distribution or what have you!

What i dont like about imro is how it monopolises certain events and opptuinities in B2B sense, when at the end of the day it is the musicians interests at heart!

And in its dealings with musicians, i find it pretty good, but rather limited.

Paddy, please dont get upset or worked up. We all have and are entitled to differing opinions and these are my views not the views of drop-d. If you want to talk further you can PM me or email me.

The Showcase does good but it only focus's on a certain few.
Since its inception 500+ bands have gone thru that forum, but there are thousands others that dont even get €50+ a year from IMRO.

While these showcases are an excellent initiative i think they are fairly ineffective on their own without more local continuing support. Like IMRO sponsered rehersal space, training courses, more local contacts (like a cork/galway etc office) but back to my initial point, IMRO dont do that because primarily they are a royalty distribution service....

AT Cyprus avenue:
You are correct, but on the flip side there are other massive bands that have come and gone throughout ireland without the assistance of IMRO.
And to be fair, lotus lullaby and rulers are 2 of the hardest working bands around, people inevitably would have heard of them.

I have friends in IMRO BTW, who share my some of my views and disagree with others, but none have ever being dissapointed in me expressing them.

My Final opinion:
The showcase is a good thing.... i will prob be there... will it achieve anything substantial for any music scene (bar the partaking musicians?) i have my doubts.
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  #13  
Old 28-01-2006, 11:02 PM
madtheory madtheory is offline
 
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drop d and Paulie- the fact that ANY A+R turn up for a showcase is always a good thing, because these guys are always watching each other. They all know about the same bands and pass information along. OK, this is often done in a fucked up and paranoid manner (!), but it is a "bush telegraph" that is actually quite effective. When you hear someone say that there is a "buzz" in the industry about a band, this bush telegraph is what they are referring to.

drop d, you appear to have failed to understand paddypaws's post. I will re- iterate:

Quote:
Originally Posted by drop d
TBH royalties are a worldwide pheonomina, and its the venues + establishments / stations that pay the bands thru liscensing.
Incorrect. I understand that you were not criticising this aspect of IMRO's work, but you fail to understand how pro active IMRO were in putting this system in place. Venues and stations etc. would never pay the royalites if IMRO hadn't asked, and in many cases, forced (through legal proceedings) stations and particularly venues to cough up their dues.
Quote:
Originally Posted by drop d
What i dont like about imro is how it monopolises certain events and opptuinities in B2B sense, when at the end of the day it is the musicians interests at heart!
What are you saying here? IMRO doesn't monopolise showcases- it is one of the very few organisations putting them on in any meaningful way. They're not stopping anyone else from doing the same thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by drop d
The Showcase does good but it only focus's on a certain few.
Since its inception 500+ bands have gone thru that forum, but there are thousands others that dont even get €50+ a year from IMRO.
Now you ARE criticising IMRO's royalty collecting. The only reason a band won't get more than €50 a year is if they are not gigging and getting radio play. That is the band's job, not IMRO's!
Quote:
Originally Posted by drop d
While these showcases are an excellent initiative i think they are fairly ineffective on their own without more local continuing support. Like IMRO sponsered rehersal space, training courses, more local contacts (like a cork/galway etc office) but back to my initial point, IMRO dont do that because primarily they are a royalty distribution service....
1. IMRO did actually begin an initiative to create rehearsal spaces in citys and towns around Ireland. It didn't work in Cork because it's a very difficult thing to do here no matter who you are. The initiative DID work in other towns.

2. There's no need for a local office. Email and phone are fine for dealing with IMRO. The amount of royalties generated by Irish musicians doesn't justify regional offices. It would have to come out of our pocket!
Quote:
Originally Posted by drop d
there are other massive bands that have come and gone throughout ireland without the assistance of IMRO.
IMRO still collected their royalties! As I'm sure you're aware, IMRO are not a management agency or a record company or a distributor or whatever. It's up to the bands to do that stuff, IMRO help out as much as they can.

I too am aware of IMRO employees who have issues with the way things are done, and these issues are addressed regularly, just like any organisation. Of course IMRO is not perfect, but are you aware of how much it has changed, for the better, in the last 5 years?

I think your criticisms are naive, poorly stated and ill informed. However, it has motivated you to set up the e-zine, which is a good thing! But I think you really need to find out more about IMRO, and compare them to other collection agencies, before you launch into criticising them.

Last edited by madtheory; 28-01-2006 at 11:11 PM..
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  #14  
Old 29-01-2006, 08:36 AM
Raulie Raulie is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madtheory
drop d and Paulie- the fact that ANY A+R turn up for a showcase is always a good thing, because these guys are always watching each other. They all know about the same bands and pass information along. OK, this is often done in a fucked up and paranoid manner (!), but it is a "bush telegraph" that is actually quite effective. When you hear someone say that there is a "buzz" in the industry about a band, this bush telegraph is what they are referring to.
I think that's my point... why don't they use their ears instead of this bush telegram... unfortunately, from where I can see, the major labels seem to be followers of fads... e.g. punk is big nowadays, right so let's sign some poppy punk band and market the fuck out of them until they're past their sell by date... it's all about the quick fix...

and i wasn't referring to the imro showcase as a bad thing at all... in fact, I commend imro for putting it on and making an effort, especially with the state of the music industry today... i'm just a bit cynical about the big labels in general... and the bands that pander to them...

just my opinion...
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  #15  
Old 29-01-2006, 10:36 AM
drop d drop d is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madtheory
Incorrect. I understand that you were not criticising this aspect of IMRO's work, but you fail to understand how pro active IMRO were in putting this system in place. Venues and stations etc. would never pay the royalites if IMRO hadn't asked, and in many cases, forced (through legal proceedings) stations and particularly venues to cough up their dues.
Quote:
Now you ARE criticising IMRO's royalty collecting. The only reason a band won't get more than €50 a year is if they are not gigging and getting radio play. That is the band's job, not IMRO's!
Quote:
I think your criticisms are naive, poorly stated and ill informed. However, it has motivated you to set up the e-zine, which is a good thing! But I think you really need to find out more about IMRO, and compare them to other collection agencies, before you launch into criticising them.
Can i comment on these first.
On the imro websiite is their annual returns + directors report for 2001, 2002, and 2003.
The latest reports are here http://www.cro.ie/search/submissions...er=133321&BI=C if ya fancy looking them up.

I didnt want to get into royalties but there you go.

Looking at 2003 the earned 28 million in revenue from licensing. (radio, pubs, tv etc.)

The first thing they do is take their operating expense 6 million from that including their salaries (which was 2.5 million).

Essentially what is left is distrubited to the musicians.....
Fact: over 60+% of this goes to oversea's artists ... james blunt, coldplay, beyonce etc...mostly the demographic is split between usa and uk.

Of the remaining 40% about 35% is distrubited to the biggest irish artists....cranberri es, corrs, westlife etc. FYI U2 earned around 3million last year as far i recall in imro cheques.

So that leaves 5% that goes to the irish needy bands...or unsigned etc...

How many bands in ireland are there, i know many bands that have signed up and only got less than a €10.

So ya the system works....however not very well.

I still think they can do musch more


Quote:
1. IMRO did actually begin an initiative to create rehearsal spaces in citys and towns around Ireland. It didn't work in Cork because it's a very difficult thing to do here no matter who you are. The initiative DID work in other towns.
Glad you brought that up, remember the sunbeam rehearsal facility, well i applied to IMRO for sponsorship of that plan. I made the mistake of sending my full business plan, after many lenghty conversations. 3 months later they attemped "GET in and make some Music"

But that and other aspects i was referring to have no place on a public forum.
Its more relevent to business's running with imro.

Quote:
What are you saying here? IMRO doesn't monopolise showcases- it is one of the very few organisations putting them on in any meaningful way. They're not stopping anyone else from doing the same thing.
No they are not, and that is not what im saying. Just that their approach in unfocused, worthwhile yes, but their funding and initiatives are not getting down to the grass roots where it is needed most, to nuture and develop the future generations.

Its grand for us in cork but what about the music scene in smaller places, counties etc.
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  #16  
Old 29-01-2006, 11:11 AM
gavindunne gavindunne is offline
 
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RE: IMRO showcase

Cypress avenue, I believe you are correct I think it was indeed only our third ever gig.

Although the major label a & R people in question did not give us any feedback or anything, the event was really useful for us in that we made a lot of other important contacts at it, and we got to play to a packed, sweaty, buzzing venue. How bad?

There are two sides to these showcases, one is the gigging but the other is the networking and that is the part that most musicians are reluctant to get into but it's essential and showcases such as the IMRO one are rare opportunties to meet and get to know the industry people.

Personally I found it to be of great benefit but that's because I spent the whole night looking for people to introduce myself to and hounding them to listen to our demo!
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  #17  
Old 29-01-2006, 02:15 PM
madtheory madtheory is offline
 
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drop d: Can you please explain why you used the word "monopolise" in relation to showcase gigs and IMRO?
Quote:
Originally Posted by drop d
Can i comment on these first.
On the imro websiite is their annual returns + directors report for 2001, 2002, and 2003.
The latest reports are here http://www.cro.ie/search/submissions...er=133321&BI=C if ya fancy looking them up.

I didnt want to get into royalties but there you go.[snip]

So that leaves 5% that goes to the irish needy bands...or unsigned etc...

How many bands in ireland are there, i know many bands that have signed up and only got less than a €10.

So ya the system works....however not very well.

I still think they can do musch more
Look- if you play or get played, you get paid. IMRO is not a charity, and a band is a business. If you're not getting the work, then you don't get paid. U2 get paid more because they are the most popular. I have looked at their accounts for the past 6 years, and it is all totally above board. I have yet to hear anyone make a good case for IMRO overspending on admin. Compare their account statement to those of similar organisations such as the ASTI, or SIPTU etc. to get an idea of standard running costs for this sort of organisation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by drop d
Glad you brought that up, remember the sunbeam rehearsal facility, well i applied to IMRO for sponsorship of that plan. I made the mistake of sending my full business plan, after many lenghty conversations. 3 months later they attemped "GET in and make some Music"

But that and other aspects i was referring to have no place on a public forum.
Its more relevent to business's running with imro.
I can't figure out what you're saying here. Can you be more specific? Are you somehow implying that IMRO stole your business plan? Please explain this to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by drop d
No they are not, and that is not what im saying. Just that their approach in unfocused, worthwhile yes, but their funding and initiatives are not getting down to the grass roots where it is needed most, to nuture and develop the future generations.
Again, you are not clear here. What exactly is your point? Are you expecting IMRO to function like a record company or management agency?
Quote:
Originally Posted by drop d
Its grand for us in cork but what about the music scene in smaller places, counties etc.
If you want to earn a living doing ANYTHING, not just music, you have to follow the market. Gigging in Cork will not get you selling records, you have to travel to (and here are some recent examples by Cork acts) Dublin, London, Germany, NY etc. etc. In music there are occasional exceptions, like Manchester and Seattle, but compared to the global music industry, these places are abberations and Cork is unlikely to become one.

Last edited by madtheory; 29-01-2006 at 02:20 PM..
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  #18  
Old 29-01-2006, 03:33 PM
drop d drop d is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madtheory
drop d: Can you please explain why you used the word "monopolise" in relation to showcase gigs and IMRO?
i didnt, i said monopolise in relation to certain events and oppertuinities in a business to business sense relating to the music industry.
see below
Quote:
What i dont like about imro is how it monopolises certain events and opptuinities in B2B sense, when at the end of the day it is the musicians interests at heart!
For instance, for allllllllll the websites out there that have music downloads or stream music of any variety (band sites, myspace, ringtone sites, site that have background music etc) they need to pay IMRO a liscence varying from hundreds to millions depending on the nature of the site and its turnover, but the most basic site with personal info needs a personal liscense of 139Euro.

Many musicians have asked why we dont have downloads on our site and that is the reason. We charge 0 for our events and charge nothing for our publication, there is even a lack of advertising on our site.

NOW for me to host local unsigned music on my site i would have to pay money to imro, a small amount granted but only a very little amount (less than 4%) would go to the intended recipients (the musicians them self) and even at that, the 4% would be distributed to alllll the musicians in ireland.
We have 0 profit and 0 loss (bar our personal contributioins to running a company and hosting). so we dont pay out money needlessly, possibly to the detriment of musicians.

Most sites dont follow this rule but as a resistered company bound by irish law the directors need to act ethically. So we dont host music.

Thats one example of monopoly in a B2B (business to business) sense, where at the end of the day they are infringing on the greater good of the musicians i would like to promote.


Quote:
Look- if you play or get played, you get paid. IMRO is not a charity, and a band is a business. If you're not getting the work, then you don't get paid. U2 get paid more because they are the most popular. I have looked at their accounts for the past 6 years, and it is all totally above board. I have yet to hear anyone make a good case for IMRO overspending on admin. Compare their account statement to those of similar organisations such as the ASTI, or SIPTU etc. to get an idea of standard running costs for this sort of organisation.
I never implied anything was not above board ... if it was then it would be kinda stupid posting about it on their site.
My point is contradicting yours about how much imro aids the local music scene with the showcase!
You got distracted and are now talking about royalties. Where i contend that less than 4% of what every business pays in liscensing goes back to the people that indeed need the money the most - i.e. with more funding and infastructure more bands/musicians would have a better chance at getting better.

AND by the way the amount paid in royalties is only determined after the companies admin costs are deducted. Thats a bit harsh from a non profit with assets + cash surplusing over 12 million. they are taking a cut of nearly 20% before it get anyway near any musicians (in terms of royalties...obviousl y they have sponsorships and products like the showcase)!

AGAIN, IMRO DO GOOD, thats not in question, i just dont think it is effective enough or beneficial to the many local music scenes.
Which brings the point i initially had .................... ..
What does the showcase do for the local scene bar for the people that perform.....
I would rather see infastructure put in place to enable more people to get to a higher standard. Have money spent on incentives with a longer shelf life! But that is off topic again
How do IMRO select who plays at the showcase? There lies the problem, we need to help the other artists as well at the current good ones.


Quote:
I can't figure out what you're saying here. Can you be more specific? Are you somehow implying that IMRO stole your business plan? Please explain this to me.
I merely stated a very brief outline of an event. Draw your own conclusions!

Quote:
Again, you are not clear here. What exactly is your point? Are you expecting IMRO to function like a record company or management agency?
Thats the exact opposite of what i was saying? maybe you can clarify what you think they are?

Quote:
If you want to earn a living doing ANYTHING, not just music, you have to follow the market. Gigging in Cork will not get you selling records, you have to travel to (and here are some recent examples by Cork acts) Dublin, London, Germany, NY etc. etc. In music there are occasional exceptions, like Manchester and Seattle, but compared to the global music industry, these places are abberations and Cork is unlikely to become one.
I think that is not true, but the fact that that is the current situation does not mean to say that it cant be changed.
I see no reason with the proper resources that cork cannot be as good a city for nurtouring musicians as any other in the places you suggested! The issue is unidentified by you but it is in fact resources! That is my point.

What good is the showcase as a resource if not for the 6 people/bands that play there. What about the other hundreds that need resources through out the year?
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Last edited by drop d; 29-01-2006 at 03:37 PM..
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  #19  
Old 30-01-2006, 10:26 AM
Raulie Raulie is offline
 
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sorry, I've opened a can of worms here... let me repeat that I do actually think that the IMRO showcase is a good thing to put on...
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  #20  
Old 30-01-2006, 01:37 PM
paddypaws paddypaws is offline
 
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Some fantastic swordsmanship there, love a good debate. There’s not much there that needs to be redressed except there will be 4 bands playing and maybe at a push 5 but no more. And in regards the selection of the bands, I suppose the first 4 bands that can come up with the 200-euro entrance fee are on the bill *































* only pulling your leg drop d, IMRO have a listening panel and they might ask for my thoughts on the selection
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