i hate the current irish gov.

[liam2me]

christ they are akin to a dictatorship, as one of the green TD's similarly said. a reporter breaks a story that a fella was locked up illegally a decade ago, so that hitler wannabe mcdowell locks up the reporter

and the dublin bus driver who's bus killed 5 people, the gov. forensic expert says there's fuck all with the bus, so the families can't sue the state, but 2 independent forensic mechanics from abroad say the bus was fucked, will the gov. pawn who lied on the stand be locked up for perjury? like fuck he will

and this risk equalisation bullshit that they've come up with, i can't wait until the quinn group take it to the european court and its found to be illegal as it is illogical.

also this housing market, can't wait until it goes bust, which it will, quite soon, because maybe the cunts who think the country is all good and dandy will get the kick up the hole they need.

if ya disagree with what i've said, well i would wager you've never lived outside ireland for a prolonged period-thats if you've ever got the (non-dutch) courage to leave the place, ya backward cunt

ok rant over, christ i love going home

incoming............ ...

[nemesis]

What an unpleasant little man...

[king of the BONGO]

i disagree with exactly everything you've said and i haven't lived in ireland for 6 yrs. how much are we bettin'?

[jammybox]

i disagree with exactly everything you've said and i haven't lived in ireland for 6 yrs. how much are we bettin'?

Bonger, i was up your part during the week, nice heatwave ya having.

[MonTheHoops]

You can always rely on you Lamey for a bit of muppetry. Keep it up.

[Shomershabbas]

Liam2me is right. The government are a pack of shysters. The only reason Bertie is so popular is because of his character in gift grub. Today FM have a lot to answer for. Mc Dowell is no saint, true, but the way Fianna Fail use him, and thus the PDs, as a scapegoat is typical.

[MonTheHoops]

if ya disagree with what i've said, well i would wager you've never lived outside ireland for a prolonged period-thats if you've ever got the (non-dutch) courage to leave the place, ya backward cunt

If you disagree with what he's said you're wrong.

Sounds to me like a dictator in itself.

A walking, talking bag of bullshit.

No matter who you vote for, the government is elected and regardless of how bad the current administration is, it's not a fucking dictatorship. Some people like to bitch and complain for bitching's sake. Take off the tin foil hat Lame.

[HappyMonday83]

Liam2me is right. The government are a pack of shysters. The only reason Bertie is so popular is because of his character in gift grub. Today FM have a lot to answer for. Mc Dowell is no saint, true, but the way Fianna Fail use him, and thus the PDs, as a scapegoat is typical.

Do you honestly think that the public will vote FF because of a character on a radio show. I'll be voting FF, Why? Because I would'ent trust FG to run a raffle. Bertie and his boys are not perfect and I disagree with a lot of their policies but they are doing a solid job. The irish economy has continued to grow where most of europe has stalled.

[MonTheHoops]

Do you honestly think that the public will vote FF because of a character on a radio show. I'll be voting FF, Why? Because I would'ent trust FG to run a raffle. Bertie and his boys are not perfect and I disagree with a lot of their policies but they are doing a solid job. The irish economy has continued to grow where most of europe has stalled.

You obviously never had the courage to leave the place "ya backward cunt"

[HappyMonday83]

You obviously never had the courage to leave the place "ya backward cunt"

Sur why would I? I have a massive muck farm on the go, i'm earning nearly 5 euro a week, ya can't turn your back on that like.

[MonTheHoops]

Sur why would I? I have a massive muck farm on the go, i'm earning nearly 5 euro a week, ya can't turn your back on that like.

No need to brag Billy Big Boots.

[HappyMonday83]

No need to brag Billy Big Boots.

You're right I should'ent be braging, here have a bag of shit, on the house.

[liam2me]

you could trust MON the gayer to get stuck in "playing the man, not the ball" unintelligent little shit, and how anyone can defend the gov.'s actions i don't know, would never be allowed happen in any other country, not even america

[boshea]

you could trust MON the gayer to get stuck in "playing the man, not the ball" unintelligent little shit, and how anyone can defend the gov.'s actions i don't know, would never be allowed happen in any other country, not even america

Yawn.

Morning liam

[HappyMonday83]

A friend of a friend who's brother knows a guy that used clean the toilet in the dail, says bertie eats a baby in a bap everyday for lunch.

[boshea]

A friend of a friend who's brother knows a guy that used clean the toilet in the dail, says bertie eats a baby in a bap everyday for lunch.

I knew it.

[HappyMonday83]

http://www.mccallstudio.com/mark/portraiture/larger/images/bertie_ahern.jpg
Give me your child.

[MonTheHoops]

So that's me gay then?

[boshea]

So that's me gay then?

Gayer

[HappyMonday83]

Gayer

gayerer.

[MonTheHoops]

Confirmed I guess then. Better ring the mother and let her know. I'd say she'll be touring the country looking for priests to fix the gay. The ould fella will be devastated. He'd big plans for his first born.

[HappyMonday83]

Confirmed I guess then. Better ring the mother and let her know. I'd say she'll be touring the country looking for priests to fix the gay. The ould fella will be devastated. He'd big plans for his first born.

Ask mancymark he found a cure.

[boshea]

Confirmed I guess then. Better ring the mother and let her know. I'd say she'll be touring the country looking for priests to fix the gay. The ould fella will be devastated. He'd big plans for his first born.

Quick........find some gangsters and go drinking with them........you'll soon find the error of your ways

[nemesis]

The only reason Bertie is so popular is because of his character in gift grub.

Ffs.

[farel']

Surely a dictatorship would involve a dictator, i.e one person running the country, where clearly Ireland is run by many individuals , though each equally incompetent?

Perhaps you mean"totalitarian" rather than "dictatorship"?

[liam2me]

Surely a dictatorship would involve a dictator, i.e one person running the country, where clearly Ireland is run by many individuals , though each equally incompetent?

Perhaps you mean"totalitarian" rather than "dictatorship"?
it was taken from what one of the green (IIRC) TD's said WRT the reporter being locked up, he also said something along the lines of- if watergate happened in ireland today, the journo's who broke the story would be locked up

[nemesis]

it was taken from what one of the green (IIRC) TD's said WRT the reporter being locked up, he also said something along the lines of- if watergate happened in ireland today, the journo's who broke the story would be locked up

The reporter broke the fucking law. What part of that do you find difficult to understand?

[farel']

If a law is unjust, should it still be enforced?

[nemesis]

If a law is unjust, should it still be enforced?

I don't see what's unjust about prosecuting a reportet who leaks information from a tribunal before the tribunal has published its report. The report was going to be published anyway so it's not as though he was publishing information that the government was trying to keep secret.

[Taste]

christ they are akin to a dictatorship, as one of the green TD's similarly said. a reporter breaks a story that a fella was locked up illegally a decade ago, so that hitler wannabe mcdowell locks up the reporter

He broke the LAW!, a law inacted by the people WE elected! :roll:

[Hieronymus Bosch]

If a law is unjust, should it still be enforced?


Obviously the law applies to everybody except reporters.

Also what about the rights of the people who may be named in such reports and tribunals. Do they not have the right to due process?

Justice should be blind.

[liam2me]

The reporter broke the fucking law. What part of that do you find difficult to understand?
so freedom of speech means nothing then? anyway it was fuck all to do with breaking the law, its the fact that he spoke out against the gov. and mcdowell, thats why he was arrested, to silence him

[Hieronymus Bosch]

so freedom of speech means nothing then? anyway it was fuck all to do with breaking the law, its the fact that he spoke out against the gov. and mcdowell, thats why he was arrested, to silence him

Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps the details of the investigation were leaked by one of the guilty parties for the sole purpose of making it more difficult to prosecute them on the grounds of unfair publicity?
If I was a crooked cop who'd framed some poor junkie for murder, I do anything to avoid prosecution.

[nemesis]

so freedom of speech means nothing then? anyway it was fuck all to do with breaking the law, its the fact that he spoke out against the gov. and mcdowell, thats why he was arrested, to silence him

No, he broke the law. Plain and simple. Do you think for example that a reporter should be allowed to report on an ongoing court case in the name of "free speech" if a judge has placed a ban on reporting?

The law is very clear in this case. The guy broke the law and got what he deserved. You mightn't like McDowell, but it's the reporters fault he was arrested.

[liam2me]

Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps the details of the investigation were leaked by one of the guilty parties for the sole purpose of making it more difficult to prosecute them on the grounds of unfair publicity?
If I was a crooked cop who'd framed some poor junkie for murder, I do anything to avoid prosecution.
or maybe it was a garda with a conscience, i know they're hard to find, nut they might just exist

[UCC Sham]

I think a FF/ Labour collition looks most likely after next election. The FF boys arent perfect but I honestly wouldnt trust FG to run the country. Something about Enda I just can't warm to. I'll be voting for FF experience and the Status Quo next time around

[liam2me]

No, he broke the law. Plain and simple. Do you think for example that a reporter should be allowed to report on an ongoing court case in the name of "free speech" if a judge has placed a ban on reporting?

The law is very clear in this case. The guy broke the law and got what he deserved. You mightn't like McDowell, but it's the reporters fault he was arrested.
good to see fascism still exists strong and well

[nemesis]

good to see fascism still exists strong and well

So any law you don't agree with is automatically "fascist"?

[Hieronymus Bosch]

I think a FF/ Labour collition looks most likely after next election. The FF boys arent perfect but I honestly wouldnt trust FG to run the country. Something about Enda I just can't warm to. I'll be voting for FF experience and the Status Quo next time around

Labour in government would be a disaster. The biggest problem with this country is reform of public services and Labour are in the pockets of the unions. The Dublin Bus unions threaten to strike if a new licences are granted to private companies. A few months back the rail drivers in Cork went on strike because they didn't want to drive new trains despite being paid to do so. The nurses want a 10% pay rise and a shorter working week (who doesn't). The ESB unions run the company (into the ground)
Can you imagine a Labour Minister for Transport telling Dublin Bus unions or Dublin airport unions to get lost?

[liam2me]

So any law you don't agree with is automatically "fascist"?
no, laws that are twisted by the gov. to deny freedom of speech, and those that support the actions of a gov. that does this are facist

[nemesis]

no, laws that are twisted by the gov. to deny freedom of speech, and those that support the actions of a gov. that does this are facist

You'd better take it up with Fine Gael and Labour then. They were the ones who pushed for the inclusion of those powers in the Commission of Investigation Act, not the PDs or FF. And your freedom of speech bit is tiresome. The guy broke the law (a law contained in an act that was welcomed by the press when it was brought in by the way).

But hey, never let the facts get in the way of a good rant about the "fascists" in our government, right?

[trasnanadtonnta]

no, laws that are twisted by the gov. to deny freedom of speech, and those that support the actions of a gov. that does this are facist

In what way was the law 'twisted', Liam? And what's your evidence for this?

Do you think that the right to free speech must be protected always, at all costs, no matter what it's being used for? What if what's being said is untrue? What if it is harmful?

[trasnanadtonnta]

But hey, never let the facts get in the way of a good rant about the "fascists" in our government, right?

I don't think he has any problem with fascists. The problem is with the "facists".

[nemesis]

I don't think he has any problem with fascists. The problem is with the "facists".

It's all becoming clear now.:p

[liam2me]

You'd better take it up with Fine Gael and Labour then. They were the ones who pushed for the inclusion of those powers in the Commission of Investigation Act, not the PDs or FF. And your freedom of speech bit is tiresome. The guy broke the law (a law contained in an act that was welcomed by the press when it was brought in by the way).

But hey, never let the facts get in the way of a good rant about the "fascists" in our government, right?
lets remember something, the journo wasn't charged with anything and was eventually released, mcdowell was abusing his position in having him arrested, if the journo had done something wrong he would have been charged. i wonder would you defend everything FF/PD's do, no matter what it is?

[liam2me]

In what way was the law 'twisted', Liam? And what's your evidence for this?

Do you think that the right to free speech must be protected always, at all costs, no matter what it's being used for? What if what's being said is untrue? What if it is harmful?
tranny fuck off, i would bet you haven't got a clue what case i'm even talking about, just disagreeing with me because its me. pathetic bitch

[Silver Moon]

tranny fuck off, i would bet you haven't got a clue what case i'm even talking about, just disagreeing with me because its me. pathetic bitch

that isnt very nice liam.

[liam2me]

that isnt very nice liam.
history, don't worry bout it

[Silver Moon]

history, don't worry bout it

pulling hair in the playground kinda thingie? :p

[cit_gym_rat]

tranny fuck off, i would bet you haven't got a clue what case i'm even talking about, just disagreeing with me because its me. pathetic bitch
handbags ladies handbags

[nemesis]

lets remember something, the journo wasn't charged with anything and was eventually released, mcdowell was abusing his position in having him arrested, if the journo had done something wrong he would have been charged. i wonder would you defend everything FF/PD's do, no matter what it is?

It would have been pretty strange if he had been charged that day Liam. Decisions on charging a suspect in a case like that are always left to the DPP and a file has in fact been sent to him. We'll find out over the next couple of weeks if he'll be charged (and I'm willing to bet that he will).

I'm not defending the government. I'm just pointing out that some of the things you're saying are factually incorrect.

[liam2me]

It would have been pretty strange if he had been charged that day Liam. Decisions on charging a suspect in a case like that are always left to the DPP and a file has in fact been sent to him. We'll find out over the next couple of weeks if he'll be charged (and I'm willing to bet that he will).

I'm not defending the government. I'm just pointing out that some of the things you're saying are factually incorrect.
what is factually incorrect in what i have said? yes he broke the law, but mcdowell is using this draconian law to silence the media, it is THAT simple, and that is a FACT

[Silver Moon]

so freedom of speech means nothing then? anyway it was fuck all to do with breaking the law, its the fact that he spoke out against the gov. and mcdowell, thats why he was arrested, to silence him

bare with me as im trying to understand the thread. did the reporter break the law liam?

[liam2me]

bare with me as im trying to understand the thread. did the reporter break the law liam?
he hasn't been charged with anything yet, so as is-no he didn't

[nemesis]

what is factually incorrect in what i have said? yes he broke the law, but mcdowell is using this draconian law to silence the media, it is THAT simple, and that is a FACT

For fuck sake. I try to give everyone on here a fair crack of the whip before judging them but youre trying my patience.

[Silver Moon]

he hasn't been charged with anything yet, so as is-no he didn't

but the judge banned the press from printing anything correct?

[liam2me]

For fuck sake. I try to give everyone on here a fair crack of the whip before judging them but youre trying my patience.
so you can't point out where i have been factually incorrect after accusing me of being such. says it all really

[exileonpatrickstreet]

boo, poor liar2me

[nemesis]

so you can't point out where i have been factually incorrect after accusing me of being such. says it all really

Yes I can.

1) You claimed that McDowell had a reporter "locked up." But then later on in the thread you say that no charge was brought. So not only has the reporter not been "locked up" but McDowell had nothing to do with it.

2) You suggest that the government forced a witness at the trial of a bus driver to lie under oath.

3) You claim that risk equalisation is "bullshit". I work for an investment bank here in London and I can tell you, hand on heart, that risk equalisation is necessary. You may not like it, you may not agree with it, but its been proven to be the only effective way to make private health insurace affordable for older people.

4) You claim the government is responsible for high prices in the housing market. This is despite the fact that Bertie ahern has never, to the best of my knowledge, worked as a builder.

5) You've said that anybody who disagrees with what you say could never have lived outside of Ireland. I've been living outside Ireland for twelve years and I disagree with you. Not only that, I can prove that what youre saying is wrong.

[liam2me]

Yes I can.

1) You claimed that McDowell had a reporter "locked up." But then later on in the thread you say that no charge was brought. So not only has the reporter not been "locked up" but McDowell had nothing to do with it.

mcdowell, or on of his minons in his name, ordered the guy be locked up, the gardaí took him in, found he had done fuck all wrong, released him. the FACT is he was taken to a garda station and put in a cell (AKA locked up) in an attempt to silence him, FACT this was said in the Dail, not just here

Liam 1 nemesis 0

2) You suggest that the government forced a witness at the trial of a bus driver to lie under oath.

he did lie under oath, the judge told the jury that they were to disregard his evidence because it was false, and proven so by 2 people who were independent. all FACT

Liam 2 nemesis 0

3) You claim that risk equalisation is "bullshit". I work for an investment bank here in London and I can tell you, hand on heart, that risk equalisation is necessary. You may not like it, you may not agree with it, but its been proven to be the only effective way to make private health insurace affordable for older people.

it is bullshit, one company isn't doing good enough, so its competitors have to prop them up? fuck off with your unprovable credentials too. RE would never happen anywhere else in the world, no right minded gov. would allow it. its like saying Lidl is doing shit so get tesco to prop it up. utter bullshit.

Liam 3 nemesis 0

4) You claim the government is responsible for high prices in the housing market. This is despite the fact that Bertie ahern has never, to the best of my knowledge, worked as a builder.

you claim to be involved in an investment bank and thats the best you've got? inflation is controlled by the gov. and its higher in ireland than anywhere else in the EU zone. (for the record in my original post i didn't blame the gov. for it, i just said i hoped it crashed- so that people will get there heads out of their arses)

Liam 4 nemesis 0

5) You've said that anybody who disagrees with what you say could never have lived outside of Ireland. I've been living outside Ireland for twelve years and I disagree with you. Not only that, I can prove that what youre saying is wrong.

oh so ya live in london, how often do ya go home? every weekend or so? and how much contact do ya have with the irish community here? would wager you immerse yourself in it

Liam 5 nemesis 0

oh and so far you've proven fuck all

Liam 6 nemesis 0

[farel']

Eh, risk equalisation is in use elsewhere. Bupa benefited from it in australia.

putting FACT at the end of a sentence does not make it more factual...

[liam2me]

Eh, risk equalisation is in use elsewhere. Bupa benefited from it in australia.

putting FACT at the end of a sentence does not make it more factual...
if thats true, well thats a very sad state of affairs, and if so, just because its used elsewhere doesn't make it right, VHI dominated the market, get overtaken by a better company, the better company then has to compensate the company who are stagnant and don't want to move with the times, pure joke.

you would never see ryanair compensating other EU airlines that its wiped out of the market.

the sensible thing to do was let vhi fold, if that were to happen without RE, and then (or beforehand) come to an agreement where BUPA took on the customers at the same price with the same terms that they had with VHI.thats sensible and thats why it wouldn't happen.

the gov. shouldn't be making laws to help its buddies out

[ho chi feen]

if thats true, well thats a very sad state of affairs, and if so, just because its used elsewhere doesn't make it right, VHI dominated the market, get overtaken by a better company, the better company then has to compensate the company who are stagnant and don't want to move with the times, pure joke.

you would never see ryanair compensating other EU airlines that its wiped out of the market.

the sensible thing to do was let vhi fold, if that were to happen without RE, and then (or beforehand) come to an agreement where BUPA took on the customers at the same price with the same terms that they had with VHI.thats sensible and thats why it wouldn't happen.

the gov. shouldn't be making laws to help its buddies out

We don't have a universal, free-at-the-point-of-use health service (a travesty). Would you think it's fair that we should do away with community rating, and make health insurance unaffordable for over 50's? Can you imagine the state of the public health system if all the senior citizens, the very people who, by virtue of their age would use it most, who previously were able to afford insurance were forced into the public system? It's bad enough as it is- adding a few more thousand users would tip the whole thing over the edge.

Risk-equalisation has been badly regulated here, both in terms of the VHI itself, and the BUPA/Quinn farce, but it's the fairest way of supplying the public with affordable healthcare.

[doppellanger]

the sensible thing to do was let vhi fold, if that were to happen without RE, and then (or beforehand) come to an agreement where BUPA took on the customers at the same price with the same terms that they had with VHI.thats sensible and thats why it wouldn't happen.

the gov. shouldn't be making laws to help its buddies out

If VHI folded thousands of people would be left without health insurance. BUPA would be unlikely to want to take them on their books because they have an older average age and would therefore be more costly and less profitable.

And then BUPA would be in a virtual monopoly position anyway and could jack up prices as VHI did back in the day.

The Government legislation is actually bad for one of its biggest buddies, Dermot Desmond, who is one of the backers of Vivas, a health insurer.

Here in Germany health insurance is compulsory, it is pricey but you get more for what you pay, e.g. GP and dentist fees are capped at 10 euro per quarter, most prescriptions are capped at 5 euro.

[liam2me]

We don't have a universal, free-at-the-point-of-use health service (a travesty). Would you think it's fair that we should do away with community rating, and make health insurance unaffordable for over 50's? Can you imagine the state of the public health system if all the senior citizens, the very people who, by virtue of their age would use it most, who previously were able to afford insurance were forced into the public system? It's bad enough as it is- adding a few more thousand users would tip the whole thing over the edge.

Risk-equalisation has been badly regulated here, both in terms of the VHI itself, and the BUPA/Quinn farce, but it's the fairest way of supplying the public with affordable healthcare.
your getting into a whole different ball game there, i'm not going to get into the farce that is the public health system, that needs a whole new thread

[liam2me]

If VHI folded thousands of people would be left without health insurance. BUPA would be unlikely to want to take them on their books because they have an older average age and would therefore be more costly and less profitable.

And then BUPA would be in a virtual monopoly position anyway and could jack up prices as VHI did back in the day.

The Government legislation is actually bad for one of its biggest buddies, Dermot Desmond, who is one of the backers of Vivas, a health insurer.

Here in Germany health insurance is compulsory, it is pricey but you get more for what you pay, e.g. GP and dentist fees are capped at 10 euro per quarter, most prescriptions are capped at 5 euro.
i think BUPA would prefer to take on the VHI customers instead of paying RE millions.

the gov. could have easily come to a compromise where when VHI folded, BUPA could take on the VHI lot on the same terms as they had previously and make them keep prices in line with inflation (who's to say BUPA would up their prices? ryanair didn't and they have a near monopoly similar to what BUPA would have).

harney and Co. handled it shockingly, and thats the whole point of this thread. the irish gov. are a joke

[ho chi feen]

your getting into a whole different ball game there, i'm not going to get into the farce that is the public health system, that needs a whole new thread

Indeed, but regardless of the public health system, community rating is the fairest and most equitable system for private health insurance- it eliminates any possibly for discrimination on grounds of health and age. The only way you can preserve community rating in a competitive market is to put in place a mechanism for transferring funds from companies with an younger customer base to those with an older one. BUPA were exempted from this in Ireland for 11 years, made a healthy proft, and would have continued to be profitable if they'd played by the rules they'd already agreed to play by. The biggest travesty in all of this is that it now looks like they will be able to get away with a hit-and-run on the country.

Yes, the regulation needs tightening, but not because of risk equalisation as a principle.

[ho chi feen]

i think BUPA would prefer to take on the VHI customers instead of paying RE millions.

the gov. could have easily come to a compromise where when VHI folded, BUPA could take on the VHI lot on the same terms as they had previously and make them keep prices in line with inflation (who's to say BUPA would up their prices? ryanair didn't and they have a near monopoly similar to what BUPA would have).

harney and Co. handled it shockingly, and thats the whole point of this thread. the irish gov. are a joke

If VHI had a younger customer base than Vivas and BUPA, they would be a net contributor to the risk-equalisation fund. Risk equalisation isn't about doling out free money to the VHI- it's about ensureing that any company who has older customers on their books don't find themselves in an unfair position in relation to those with younger, lower-risk ones.

I'll say it again, there's plenty of lessons to be learned here- the VHI's other interests should be broken off from the core business, solvency reserves should be looked at again, legislation put in place to to stop the country being ass-raped by hit-and-run merchants like BUPA (who, incidentally, are more than happy to receive risk equalisation payments from competitors in two Australian states)- but getting rid of community rating (sustainable only by some form of risk equalisation) is not one of them- unless you want an American style system that prices many, many people out of the market.

[farel']

If BUPA wanted to take the VHI customers, then they wouldn't be marketing just the younger customers. In fact the main reason for risk equalisation is because BUPA will not take the older VHI customers.


You really haven't put much research into this...

Health insurance is not the same as an airline.

VHI have been in the business for years. Their customer base is older because they have been around so long. Their costs would be higher, as most of its customers would be using their health insurance more as they get older.
BUPA came into the business recently, and aims its product at a certain age group. Young people as a rule don't go to hospital as often as older people, so BUPA does not have the same outgoings as the VHI.

Consider it like a formula one race, where BUPA are the Ferarri, and VHI are the Loadall that picks the crashed cars off the track. Both will make it around the track,both are entitled to be there but for the race to be somewhat even, you need to get ferrari to buy spoilers and a V10 engine for the loadall, and it'll still be struggling.

[liam2me]

If BUPA wanted to take the VHI customers, then they wouldn't be marketing just the younger customers. In fact the main reason for risk equalisation is because BUPA will not take the older VHI customers.


You really haven't put much research into this...

Health insurance is not the same as an airline.

VHI have been in the business for years. Their customer base is older because they have been around so long. Their costs would be higher, as most of its customers would be using their health insurance more as they get older.
BUPA came into the business recently, and aims its product at a certain age group. Young people as a rule don't go to hospital as often as older people, so BUPA does not have the same outgoings as the VHI.

Consider it like a formula one race, where BUPA are the Ferarri, and VHI are the Loadall that picks the crashed cars off the track. Both will make it around the track,both are entitled to be there but for the race to be somewhat even, you need to get ferrari to buy spoilers and a V10 engine for the loadall, and it'll still be struggling.
as a response to both of you, why should VIVAS/BUPA have to prop up VHI, just because they were poorly managed and didn't offer a package that appealed to younger members? RE is VHI's answer to not being on the ball enough and basically being a shit company, if the gov. had any balls they would tell them to piss off and offer a better product to entice younger, less expensive customers or fold

[ho chi feen]

In principle, it's got fuck all to do with BUPA anyway.

in 20 years time, there might be no VHI, no Vivas, no Quinn. There could be 16 different providers, there could be 6, there could be 100. Who knows? Risk equalisation is there to ensure fairness to the consumer and to ensure that there is a competitive market.

[ho chi feen]

as a response to both of you, why should VIVAS/BUPA have to prop up VHI, just because they were poorly managed and didn't offer a package that appealed to younger members? RE is VHI's answer to not being on the ball enough and basically being a shit company, if the gov. had any balls they would tell them to piss off and offer a better product to entice younger, less expensive customers or fold

But you're always going to get some companies with younger customers and some with older ones, no matter what you do.

The only alternative to risk equalisation in preserving a community rating system that is fair to all customers is the one used in New York State- that is, you, the customer, apply for health insurance, and the regulator decides which provider will underwrite your policy. In other words, you don't choose your provider, the state does; and you get the same cover at the price. This ensures that all customers are looked after, and no single company can gain an unfair advantage over the others by only taking on younger customers.

In practical terms, risk equalisation does exactly the same- makes sure that all companies are on an equal footing, that all consumers get a fair a deal- and enables the health insurance providers do what they are there to do, which is to provide medical cover.

[ehrayeah]

I'll be voting FF, Why? Because I would'ent trust FG to run a raffle. Bertie and his boys are not perfect and I disagree with a lot of their policies but they are doing a solid job. The irish economy has continued to grow where most of europe has stalled.

ah for FF's sake, thats the sort of cobblers that will get the country screwed - did you not hear that thing during the week where Bertie FF'd us over re the airport? remember? "I promise Cork will have no debt". 4 years later. "Cork should have €100 million debt". You're voting that twit Noel O' Flynn into power? How can you vote that gimp Martin Cullen into power again? If you're not going to vote FG at least give Dan Boyle a preference somewhere.

[ehrayeah]

In principle, it's got fuck all to do with BUPA anyway.

in 20 years time, there might be no VHI, no Vivas, no Quinn. There could be 16 different providers, there could be 6, there could be 100. Who knows? Risk equalisation is there to ensure fairness to the consumer and to ensure that there is a competitive market.

VHI chief on radio last Friday admitting they have plenty of younger customers. So why do they need Risk equalisation? and why dont the VHI have to answer to same solvency rules as the private companies? And why did M Harney rush through legislation pretty much on the QT to cover up their own mistakes? Go on Sean Quinn, steam roll the b***ards

[ho chi feen]

VHI chief on radio last Friday admitting they have plenty of younger customers. So why do they need Risk equalisation? and why dont the VHI have to answer to same solvency rules as the private companies? And why did M Harney rush through legislation pretty much on the QT to cover up their own mistakes? Go on Sean Quinn, steam roll the b***ards

I agree completely on the solvency issue, but I'll repeat what I said already on risk equalisation- it is there to cover providers for any risks involved in having an older customer base than their competitors. If VIVAS had all the older customers, they would receive the most. Unless all companies have an equal age profile in terms of customer base, some sort of mechanism to transfer funds must exist-and unless you specifically intervene in the workings of the market (like in New York State- a good system, IMHO), there will always be differences in age profiles of memberships. Risk equalisation corrects the imbalance.

VHI should be broken up, should have the same solvency requirements (actually, the point of the present system is to enable them to do so, but it's moving too slowly for my liking), and placed in fully private owenership- but that's got nothing to do with risk-equalisation.

[nemesis]

Liam, you conveniently and completely ignored the points I was making. Instead of dealing with facts you chose a nice little personal attack instead.

You're an unpleasant little man, you know that?

[liam2me]

Liam, you conveniently and completely ignored the points I was making. Instead of dealing with facts you chose a nice little personal attack instead.

You're an unpleasant little man, you know that?
i actually answered your points in order you put them and seeing as you commented on yourself i responded. you have conveniently ignored my rebuttal so practice what ya preach

[liam2me]

But you're always going to get some companies with younger customers and some with older ones, no matter what you do.

The only alternative to risk equalisation in preserving a community rating system that is fair to all customers is the one used in New York State- that is, you, the customer, apply for health insurance, and the regulator decides which provider will underwrite your policy. In other words, you don't choose your provider, the state does; and you get the same cover at the price. This ensures that all customers are looked after, and no single company can gain an unfair advantage over the others by only taking on younger customers.

In practical terms, risk equalisation does exactly the same- makes sure that all companies are on an equal footing, that all consumers get a fair a deal- and enables the health insurance providers do what they are there to do, which is to provide medical cover.
i think we're looking at the problem from 2 different view points, i'm looking at it from a business point of view and your looking at it from a more socialist point of view.

i will ask though, for the situation, do you not think my solution stated in the previous page would be alot better then this RE? if anything it leaves the gov. less open to corruption claims and would benefit all sides (apart from the VHI fatcats) more so than the current system

[trasnanadtonnta]

In what way was the law 'twisted', Liam? And what's your evidence for this?

Do you think that the right to free speech must be protected always, at all costs, no matter what it's being used for? What if what's being said is untrue? What if it is harmful?

tranny fuck off, i would bet you haven't got a clue what case i'm even talking about, just disagreeing with me because its me. pathetic bitch

What happened to "play the ball, not the man", 2me? That only applies to the rest of us, not to you, is it? Much like the laws of logic then.

I ask again: Do you think that the right to free speech outweighs every other right? That the right to free speech is absolute, and trumps every other law? It's a serious question, and I would ask - and have asked - it to anyone who seems to imply that their answer would be 'yes'.

By the way, calling me "tranny" as though "transsexual" is an insult really proves that you are so much more enlightened than all those muck savages back home alright. Well done. The idea that a little shit like you that holds Ireland and the Irish in such contempt has the gall to question my Irishness like! It's up there with you and your anti-union views challenging Pudgee on his left-wing-ness. You haven't even a fucking hand to stand on, don't mind a leg.

[ho chi feen]

i think we're looking at the problem from 2 different view points, i'm looking at it from a business point of view and your looking at it from a more socialist point of view.

i will ask though, for the situation, do you not think my solution stated in the previous page would be alot better then this RE? if anything it leaves the gov. less open to corruption claims and would benefit all sides (apart from the VHI fatcats) more so than the current system

No, I stated, I wanted the VHI in private ownership, and I want competition. How is this socialist? Also, I'd like a proper public system- separate issue.

No, I don't. Community rating and real competition are the two most important things in the case of the private health market- not the bullying of the state by unscrupulous, hypocritical hit and run merchants like BUPA. The New York state system is the only viable alternative to risk equalisation, but the companies in the market prefer RE to this as it allows them to enlarge their client base- RE offsets the downside of this, and copperfastens sustainable & fair competition.

What's this about corruption, incidentally?

[liam2me]

What happened to "play the ball, not the man", 2me? That only applies to the rest of us, not to you, is it? Much like the laws of logic then.

I ask again: Do you think that the right to free speech outweighs every other right? That the right to free speech is absolute, and trumps every other law? It's a serious question, and I would ask - and have asked - it to anyone who seems to imply that their answer would be 'yes'.

By the way, calling me "tranny" as though "transsexual" is an insult really proves that you are so much more enlightened than all those muck savages back home alright. Well done. The idea that a little shit like you that holds Ireland and the Irish in such contempt has the gall to question my Irishness like! It's up there with you and your anti-union views challenging Pudgee on his left-wing-ness. You haven't even a fucking hand to stand on, don't mind a leg.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz do you have anything important/interesting to say?

[liam2me]

No, I stated, I wanted the VHI in private ownership, and I want competition. How is this socialist? Also, I'd like a proper public system- separate issue.

No, I don't. Community rating and real competition are the two most important things in the case of the private health market- not the bullying of the state by unscrupulous, hypocritical hit and run merchants like BUPA. The New York state system is the only viable alternative to risk equalisation, but the companies in the market prefer RE to this as it allows them to enlarge their client base- RE offsets the downside of this, and copperfastens sustainable & fair competition.

What's this about corruption, incidentally?

would you still agree with RE if VHI were private and still poorly run as they are now? it seems to be the worse they are run, the more handouts they get.

i rally don't think BUPA are hit and run merchants, they would have stayed in the market had they not been told to subsidise a poorly run company. i prefer the NY option to RE, it seems fairer.

if this was any other industry it wouldn't happen, and i don't think this industry should be treated differently. i know that sounds cruel on the VHI patients, but move them to VIVAS/BUPA under the same conditions, a poorly run company shouldn't be rewarded for it, and thats all that it is.

the situation is comparable to the london underground maintenance probems (which also have lives depending on it), metronet who are not performing well get fined, not rewarded, for under-performing and will be let go under for a better performing company if they continue as such

[trasnanadtonnta]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz do you have anything important/interesting to say?

LMFAO, I love that you edited that! Did you mis-spell zzzzzzz like?

It's profound and wittily-phrased responses like this that make you the highly-regarded intellectual pillar of the PROC that you are. You do bestride the narrow PROC like a collosus, 2me, while we petty men walk under your huge legs and peep about to find ourselves dishonourable graves.

[trasnanadtonnta]

By the way, you were the one banging on about free speech. Now you don't think it's important? This argues a distempered head, 2me. (The bits at the end of this and the last message are paraphrases of Shakespeare, by the way. You might like him. He wasn't Irish.)

[liam2me]

LMFAO, I love that you edited that! Did you mis-spell zzzzzzz like?

It's profound and wittily-phrased responses like this that make you the highly-regarded intellectual pillar of the PROC that you are. You do bestride the narrow PROC like a collosus, 2me, while we petty men walk under your huge legs and peep about to find ourselves dishonourable graves.
love, the fact that you care what other members of an internet forum think of you says it all about you and your pathetic excuse for a life.

[trasnanadtonnta]

love, the fact that you care what other members of an internet forum think of you says it all about you and your pathetic excuse for a life.

Who said anything about what anyone thinks of me?

[liam2me]

By the way, you were the one banging on about free speech. Now you don't think it's important? This argues a distempered head, 2me. (The bits at the end of this and the last message are paraphrases of Shakespeare, by the way. You might like him. He wasn't Irish.)
look, instead of trying to look intelligent by quoting some dead drug addict, why don't you add to the topic, and not some pathetic off-shoot. america can keep ya

[trasnanadtonnta]

look, instead of trying to look intelligent by quoting some dead drug addict, why don't you add to the topic, and not some pathetic off-shoot. america can keep ya

I tried to add to the topic, you ignored my point, because you play the man and not the ball, even though you said you hate when other people do that. And if you think that quoting bits of Junior Cert literature could conceivably make one look intelligent, well, that's yet further proof that you and I have very, very different ideas about what intelligence is.

[liam2me]

Who said anything about what anyone thinks of me?
you claim to be some kind of higher intelligence of the PROC and ya can't figure that one out??? fuck off, even exileonpatrickstreet isn't that thick (go on PM him to come back ya up, your a coward without numbers behind ya)

its well known that you believe, nae, vehemently promote a class system within the PROC, and for a class system to work you need to care what other people think off you, and your snobbery is the easiest evidence to this.

so don't give me this bullshit that you don't care, because you very much do so

[Persephone]

hehehe men playing with balls

*runs outta thread*

[liam2me]

free speech is very important, and it trumps alot of things, not all, but it does trump a gov. arresting a journo just to save its blushes.

to quote the green TD mentioned earlier when speaking in the daíl WRT this case- "if watergate had happened in ireland today, Woodward and Bernstein would be rotting in a jail cell"

[liam2me]

I tried to add to the topic, you ignored my point, because you play the man and not the ball, even though you said you hate when other people do that. And if you think that quoting bits of Junior Cert literature could conceivably make one look intelligent, well, that's yet further proof that you and I have very, very different ideas about what intelligence is.
your the one who quoted these bits of Junior Cert literature to try and look intelligent, and then proceeded to point out that you did such,which was a blatant attempt to more intelligent than me, so that says plenty about you.

ever hear of when in a hole, you should stop digging. its way to easy to tear you to shreds

[Hieronymus Bosch]

free speech is very important, and it trumps alot of things, not all, but it does trump a gov. arresting a journo just to save its blushes.

to quote the green TD mentioned earlier when speaking in the daíl WRT this case- "if watergate had happened in ireland today, Woodward and Bernstein would be rotting in a jail cell"

Please name one journalist in Ireland who has spent time in jail for doing their job?

[liam2me]

Please name one journalist in Ireland who has spent time in jail for doing their job?
not yet, thankfully. despite the best efforts of heir (sp?) mcdowell

[Hieronymus Bosch]

not yet, thankfully. despite the best efforts of heir (sp?) mcdowell



Do you really expect the Dept. of Justice and the Gardai to ignore law-breaking and not even question those involved?
A police force doesn't get to decide which laws they enforce and which ones they don't. A basic principle of justice is that everybody is subject to the laws be they journalists, politicans,whoever

[nemesis]

free speech is very important, and it trumps alot of things, not all, but it does trump a gov. arresting a journo just to save its blushes.

Liam, this is rubbish. Either prove that the government had this guy arrested or just accept that what you're claiming is nothing more than an ill informed opinion.

to quote the green TD mentioned earlier when speaking in the daíl WRT this case- "if watergate had happened in ireland today, Woodward and Bernstein would be rotting in a jail cell"

This is the same Green party that wants to restrict the publics right to choose how to live their lives by taxing us to the point of extinction? This is the same Green party who are on record as saying they want to cut car ownership by forty percent even though they're unwilling to invest more money in Bus Eireann/Dublin Bus? This is the same Green party which doesn't believe in our right to own cars? This is the same Green party that began their party conference by having a circle jerk to Al Gore's film? This is the same Green party that has said anybody who doesn't believe in climate change must be funded by oil companies, even though their science may be indisuputable? This is the same Green party that quotes the IPCC report into climate change as though its gospel even though several of the principle authors of the report have now disowned it as being politically motivated and fundamentally unscientific? This is the same Green party who will throw their lot in with Republicans and support attacks on the Gardai at the Shell to Sea protests last year?

If that's the Green party you're talking about, you can keep them.

[liam2me]

Do you really expect the Dept. of Justice and the Gardai to ignore law-breaking and not even question those involved?
A police force doesn't get to decide which laws they enforce and which ones they don't. A basic principle of justice is that everybody is subject to the laws be they journalists, politicans,whoever
the gardaí only acted after a complaint buy one of mcdowells minions, and that complaint was not made out of a love for law and order, it was made to stop the gov. from being embarrassed. if you believe otherwise then you are very naive

[nemesis]

the gardaí only acted after a complaint buy one of mcdowells minions, and that complaint was not made out of a love for law and order, it was made to stop the gov. from being embarrassed. if you believe otherwise then you are very naive


How in the name of God do you think that being accused of having a journalist locked up would not embarass the government? How would that stop them from being embarassed, exactly?

[liam2me]

Liam, this is rubbish. Either prove that the government had this guy arrested or just accept that what you're claiming is nothing more than an ill informed opinion.

mcdowell admitted it in the dail!!! where have you been like?

This is the same Green party that wants to restrict the publics right to choose how to live their lives by taxing us to the point of extinction? This is the same Green party who are on record as saying they want to cut car ownership by forty percent even though they're unwilling to invest more money in Bus Eireann/Dublin Bus? This is the same Green party that began their party conference by having a circle jerk to Al Gore's film? This is the same Green party that quotes the IPCC report into climate change as though its gospel even though several of the principle authors of the report have now disowned it as being politically motivated and fundamentally unscientific? This is the same Green party who will throw their lot in with Republicans and support attacks on the Gardai at the Shell to Sea protests last year?

If that's the Green party you're talking about, you can keep them.

what a stupid irrelevant little rant. where on earth did i say in any way or form that i support the green party? talk about spunking your load at the slightest tickle.

the only reason i mentioned the green party was that the TD who i quoted is a green. if i had said opposition TD, you wouldn't have asked which party he belonged to. your only deflecting attention from the fact you haven't got a leg to stand on in anything you've said so far in this thread

[Hieronymus Bosch]

the gardaí only acted after a complaint buy one of mcdowells minions, and that complaint was not made out of a love for law and order, it was made to stop the gov. from being embarrassed. if you believe otherwise then you are very naive



The same government that set up the inquiry into Dean Lyons "confession" ?
Either the inquiry is allowed to proceed without interruption or it's not. The implications of people leaking are that it makes it all the more difficult for charges to be bought at the end of the process if people are accussed of crimes. It's also unfair to those being investigated because they're denied a right of reply and the motives of the leaker aren't held up to scrutiny.
The govt. has a duty defend the inquiry. At the end of the day, they're trying to get to the bottom of how a messed up junkie "confessed" to 2 murders he couldn't possibly have committed. Any attempt to undermine that is disgraceful.

[liam2me]

How in the name of God do you think that being accused of having a journalist locked up would not embarass the government? How would that stop them from being embarassed, exactly?
it didn't, i never said that our gov. were very smart, quite the opposite actually (do you not understand the point of this thread?)

[Hieronymus Bosch]

it didn't, i never said that our gov. were very smart, quite the opposite actually (do you not understand the point of this thread?)

If the government wanted to avoid embarrassment they would have ignored the issue. After all, Dean Lyons was a poor junkie. It's not like he had a big group of people in his corner.
What exactly would you like the govt. to do to get to the bottom of this?

[liam2me]

The same government that set up the inquiry into Dean Lyons "confession" ?
Either the inquiry is allowed to proceed without interruption or it's not. The implications of people leaking are that it makes it all the more difficult for charges to be bought at the end of the process if people are accussed of crimes. It's also unfair to those being investigated because they're denied a right of reply and the motives of the leaker aren't held up to scrutiny.
The govt. has a duty defend the inquiry. At the end of the day, they're trying to get to the bottom of how a messed up junkie "confessed" to 2 murders he couldn't possibly have committed. Any attempt to undermine that is disgraceful.

look when its all said and done, the gov. are just trying to cover their asses so they don't get sued for wrongful arrest. they're not trying to defend the inquiry, they're trying to cover their asses.

and whether the journo was right or wrong to leak what he had, the gov. motives behind locking him up weren't to protect the enquiry, it was to prevent further embarrassment to them. i wonder if he hadn't printed what was leaked to him, how much of it would have been covered up

[liam2me]

If the government wanted to avoid embarrassment they would have ignored the issue. After all, Dean Lyons was a poor junkie. It's not like he had a big group of people in his corner.
What exactly would you like the govt. to do to get to the bottom of this?
i would bet theirs too much happened that would make the gov. look very bad for them to not actively try to hide what happened, i very much doubt they want to get to the bottom of it, mush like most other tribunals, give them a narrow remit and they won't be able to dig anything up. just like they're trying to shut down the Mahon tribunal because its getting too close to comfort. this lot are more corrupt than burlesconi in his prime, it wasn't too long ago that an EU investigation put us top of a corruption list

[Hieronymus Bosch]

look when its all said and done, the gov. are just trying to cover their asses so they don't get sued for wrongful arrest. they're not trying to defend the inquiry, they're trying to cover their asses.

and whether the journo was right or wrong to leak what he had, the gov. motives behind locking him up weren't to protect the enquiry, it was to prevent further embarrassment to them. i wonder if he hadn't printed what was leaked to him, how much of it would have been covered up


You really should know what you're talking about brfore you start.
This investigation is being held under the Commissions of Investigations Act of 2004.
It allows for the inquiry to be held in private but the results will be made public.
It's like a Tribunal of Inquiry, only cheaper and faster.
The main problem the Tribunals face is every person under investigation brings legal challenges to try and protect their reputation. Under the 2004 Act, the investigation is held, a draft report is sent to the people involved for their comment. After that the report is published.
The biggest danger is that when the draft report is sent to people under investigation they will selectively leak to protect their own story. This is what happened in the Dean Lyons case.
Dean Lyons was the victim of a terrible miscarraige of justice and for anybody, be they journalist, Garda or politican to try and deny his family a proper and full investigation is just plain indefensible.

[liam2me]

You really should know what you're talking about brfore you start.
This investigation is being held under the Commissions of Investigations Act of 2004.
It allows for the inquiry to be held in private but the results will be made public.
It's like a Tribunal of Inquiry, only cheaper and faster.
The main problem the Tribunals face is every person under investigation brings legal challenges to try and protect their reputation. Under the 2004 Act, the investigation is held, a draft report is sent to the people involved for their comment. After that the report is published.
The biggest danger is that when the draft report is sent to people under investigation they will selectively leak to protect their own story. This is what happened in the Dean Lyons case.
Dean Lyons was the victim of a terrible miscarraige of justice and for anybody, be they journalist, Garda or politican to try and deny his family a proper and full investigation is just plain indefensible.
yes it would be indefensible for a politician to cover it up, just like a certain heir mcdowell would like to be done, by locking up the journo who wanted to publish the truth

[Hieronymus Bosch]

http://www.justice.ie/80256E010039C5AF/vWeb/pcJUSQ6T6ENZ-ga



Go the Dept of Justice website.
In the search page type in Dean Lyons.
You'll find the 300 page report by George Birmingham into the case available to download. It names the Gardai involved, has a full chronology of events and explains every grubby little mistake by the Gardai involved.
The report was published on August 30th.
Big cover up eh?

[liam2me]

http://www.justice.ie/80256E010039C5AF/vWeb/pcJUSQ6T6ENZ-ga



Go the Dept of Justice website.
In the search page type in Dean Lyons.
You'll find the 300 page report by George Birmingham into the case available to download. It names the Gardai involved, has a full chronology of events and explains every grubby little mistake by the Gardai involved.
The report was published on August 30th.
Big cover up eh?
without reading it, how do you know something hasn't been edited out, or would have been edited out before this journo broke the story?

[Hieronymus Bosch]

without reading it, how do you know something hasn't been edited out, or would have been edited out before this journo broke the story?


Because George Birmingham is a respected Senior Counsel who isn't open to government interference.
Also the only people who are allowed to comment or dispute the draft report are those named in it and the Investigator rules on that.
The problem is that the journalist only had the word of a biased Garda with perhaps an axe to grind.
It's not good enough that such a serious issue is open to manipulation by people who may have been themselves under investigation.

[nemesis]

mcdowell admitted it in the dail!!! where have you been like?

McDowell admitted what?

[liam2me]

McDowell admitted what?
that he, or rather his cronie, had him arrested. god, you haven't a clue whats actually going on do you?

[liam2me]

Because George Birmingham is a respected Senior Counsel who isn't open to government interference.
Also the only people who are allowed to comment or dispute the draft report are those named in it and the Investigator rules on that.
The problem is that the journalist only had the word of a biased Garda with perhaps an axe to grind.
It's not good enough that such a serious issue is open to manipulation by people who may have been themselves under investigation.
but the department of justice was under investigation

[nemesis]

that he, or rather his cronie, had him arrested. god, you haven't a clue whats actually going on do you?

Liam, you're so full of shit. I see you do this every time you talk to somebody on here: you make a ridiculous claim, backpedal when it's proven to be ridiculous, and then pretend that your argument was about something different entirely. It's why I and most others here never bother to talk to you.

The secretary general of the justice department was the one who made the complaint, not McDowell. Whats more, McDowell said under questioning in the Dail that he had not been responsible for the complaint, although he was aware of it at the time. So the simple fact of the matter is that a civil servant, not a government minister, made a complaint to the gardai about a journalist who had broken the law. The journalist was arrested, a file has been sent to the dpp, and the journalist will probably be charged in the coming week or two.

Kind of makes a makes a mockery of your claim that "heir [sic] McDowell" had anybody arrested, doesn't it?

[farel']

Cue barrage of personal insults from liam...

[liam2me]

Liam, you're so full of shit. I see you do this every time you talk to somebody on here: you make a ridiculous claim, backpedal when it's proven to be ridiculous, and then pretend that your argument was about something different entirely. It's why I and most others here never bother to talk to you.

The secretary general of the justice department was the one who made the complaint, not McDowell. Whats more, McDowell said under questioning in the Dail that he had not been responsible for the complaint, although he was aware of it at the time. So the simple fact of the matter is that a civil servant, not a government minister, made a complaint to the gardai about a journalist who had broken the law. The journalist was arrested, a file has been sent to the dpp, and the journalist will probably be charged in the coming week or two.

Kind of makes a makes a mockery of your claim that "heir [sic] McDowell" had anybody arrested, doesn't it?
you mean to say that you are so naive as to believe mcdowell didn't give the order? really?

again BTW you have misquoted me, i have always said that it was mcdowell's cronie had him arrested, and insisted it was on mcdowell's orders, i haven't changed my story one bit. in fact you still haven't answered my rebuttle to your earlier claptrap, you actually haven't got a single thing right, nor stood up to defend yourself when proven wrong.

no need to say any more, this is worse than exileonpatrickstreet in the south london murders thread

[nemesis]

again BTW you have misquoted me, i have always said that it was mcdowell's cronie had him arrested

Liam, again, you're full of shit. Look at the very first post in this thread (http://www.peoplesrepublico fcork.com/~peoplesr/forums/showpost.php?p=14175 07&postcount=1).

a reporter breaks a story that a fella was locked up illegally a decade ago, so that hitler wannabe mcdowell locks up the reporter

So which is it Liam? I'm having difficulty following the number of people who you've claimed are responsible for his arrest. Was it (a) McDowell, (b) the government, (c) a "cronie [sic]", or (d) somebody else?

[nemesis]

And let's look at your claims:

mcdowell, or on of his minons in his name, ordered the guy be locked up, the gardaí took him in, found he had done fuck all wrong, released him. the FACT is he was taken to a garda station and put in a cell (AKA locked up) in an attempt to silence him, FACT this was said in the Dail, not just here

No Liam, he was released because a file has been sent to the DPP. This happens all the damn time. He'll be charged in the next week or two. And it was hardly an attempt to silence him - he spent all of the next day whoring himself on Joe Duffy.

he did lie under oath, the judge told the jury that they were to disregard his evidence because it was false, and proven so by 2 people who were independent.

Give me proof that shows the witness is being charged with perjury then. Can't do it? Of course you can't.

it is bullshit, one company isn't doing good enough, so its competitors have to prop them up? fuck off with your unprovable credentials too. RE would never happen anywhere else in the world, no right minded gov. would allow it. its like saying Lidl is doing shit so get tesco to prop it up. utter bullshit.

Risk equalisation (or more correctly, community rating) happens in plenty of other countries, Australia, Austria, Romania, and Hungary being just the examples I can think of off the top of my head. So again, what you're saying is wrong.

you claim to be involved in an investment bank and thats the best you've got? inflation is controlled by the gov. and its higher in ireland than anywhere else in the EU zone. (for the record in my original post i didn't blame the gov. for it, i just said i hoped it crashed- so that people will get there heads out of their arses)

No Liam, inflation isn't controlled by the government. Inflation isn't "controlled" by anybody at all. That's why people like me can make money by trying to predict how interest rate changes and quarterly inflation figures will affect a market. Also, inflation is higher here than in the rest of Europe because our economy has had higher growth acceleration than elsewhere. This is pretty basic economics.

oh so ya live in london, how often do ya go home? every weekend or so? and how much contact do ya have with the irish community here? would wager you immerse yourself in it

I have no idea what this even means. Still though, it must be important to you because you decided to award yourself a point for it. Well done.

[liam2me]

Liam, again, you're full of shit. Look at the very first post in this thread (http://www.peoplesrepublico fcork.com/~peoplesr/forums/showpost.php?p=14175 07&postcount=1).



So which is it Liam? I'm having difficulty following the number of people who you've claimed are responsible for his arrest. Was it (a) McDowell, (b) the government, (c) a "cronie [sic]", or (d) somebody else?

there's fuck all of a difference between mcdowell (a senior TDin yes the government) having the guy arrested, or one of his minions doing his bidding-if ya can't tell the difference, and thats the crux of your argument, well then your hole is getting deeper and deeper

[liam2me]

And let's look at your claims:



No Liam, he was released because a file has been sent to the DPP. This happens all the damn time. He'll be charged in the next week or two. And it was hardly an attempt to silence him - he spent all of the next day whoring himself on Joe Duffy.

attempts can fail, and i'm glad he's making as much noise as possible because the gov. has no right to silence a man just to save their blushes, as the opposition TD (won't say green in case you go off on another irrelevant rant) said, if watergate had happened here...

Give me proof that shows the witness is being charged with perjury then. Can't do it? Of course you can't.

my point is that he won't be charged with perjury, do you have some kind of memory loss? thats what i said in my origional post, the proof that he lied was in the judge throwing out his evidence. your hole is getting deeper

Risk equalisation (or more correctly, community rating) happens in plenty of other countries, Australia, Austria, Romania, and Hungary being just the examples I can think of off the top of my head. So again, what you're saying is wrong.

ok i'll give ya that one, other countries use RE, doesn't make it right (which was my point all along) and its typical of this gov. to pick the most corrupt looking system.
you finally got 1 right, pity its not exactly the main point of any of my gripes

No Liam, inflation isn't controlled by the government. Inflation isn't "controlled" by anybody at all. That's why people like me can make money by trying to predict how interest rate changes and quarterly inflation figures will affect a market. Also, inflation is higher here than in the rest of Europe because our economy has had higher growth acceleration than elsewhere. This is pretty basic economics.

i know very little about economics (and by the looks of it neither do you) but i do know that inflation is a result of various gov. actions, gordon brown in the UK would never have such a high rate of inflation

lad all in all your arguments are weak at best and your digging yourself a hole, and attempting to claim some sort of victory without even knowing what i've said all along shows that you haven't been reading the thread at all

[pudgee]

Liam, regarding the McCaffrey case, the most trustworthy people I have on it think it probably wasn't a fit up by McDowell.

Also, he didn't expose the original story. He wrote a story on a leaked report from an inquiry in to the original story.

That said, it's ludicrous, and indeed worrying, that he should be arrested.

What interests me about your first post is the implied notion that UK democracy works so much better.

[exileonpatrickstreet]

http://images.parenthood.co m/pop-corn.jpg

[liam2me]

Liam, regarding the McCaffrey case, the most trustworthy people I have on it think it probably wasn't a fit up by McDowell.

Also, he didn't expose the original story. He wrote a story on a leaked report from an inquiry in to the original story.

That said, it's ludicrous, and indeed worrying, that he should be arrested.

What interests me about your first post is the implied notion that UK democracy works so much better.

the highlighted bit is the point, the details of what he printed aren't as important.

whatever about the individual policies of the UK parties they are mush more professional, and the fact that the opposition are competent here in the UK added to the fact, paper X will keep the spotlight on party A's mistakes and paper Y will do same for party B, and will really scrutinise said mistakes makes the gov. in the UK much more accountable than the joke that is the irish gov.

[exileonpatrickstreet]

amazingly, i'm inclined to agree with this. not that blair will actually get done over the cash-for-honours scandal, but there's no way the kind of cronyism that passed for irish politics in the 80s and early 90s would go unnoticed and/or unpunished in britain. a lot to do with the competence and breadth of the press, i think.

however, for good, old-fashioned, diamond joe quimby-style corruption, check our richard daley in chicago. now that you couldn't make up

[ho chi feen]

however, for good, old-fashioned, diamond joe quimby-style corruption, check our richard daley in chicago. now that you couldn't make up

Didn't he just get voted back in for 66th consecutive term, or something?

[exileonpatrickstreet]

yup. tainting obama's simple country boy schtick along the way

[liam2me]

amazingly, i'm inclined to agree with this. not that blair will actually get done over the cash-for-honours scandal, but there's no way the kind of cronyism that passed for irish politics in the 80s and early 90s would go unnoticed and/or unpunished in britain. a lot to do with the competence and breadth of the press, i think.

however, for good, old-fashioned, diamond joe quimby-style corruption, check our richard daley in chicago. now that you couldn't make up

feck, my argument just went to shit :D

[nemesis]

i know very little about economics (and by the looks of it neither do you) but i do know that inflation is a result of various gov. actions, gordon brown in the UK would never have such a high rate of inflation

Liam, inflation is a simple idea. SImply put it says that a pound a year from now is worth less than a pound today. Government actions can influence inflation (just as the action of any participant in a market can influence inflation), but it cannot control it. The very fact that governments sell bonds show that governments can't control inflation.

You may perhaps be thinking of interest rates in the UK. Even then though, Gordon Brown doesn't control interest rates - Mervyn King and the board of governors at the Bank of England are the only ones who can control interest rates.

[liam2me]

good to see you've actually cut the crap that you obviously knew nothing about.

you tell me one thing the irish gov. has done to prevent inflation beyond the EU average in ireland.

anyway i don't know that much about economics, (hence why i didn't mention it in my original post), all i expressed was a wish for the housing market to collapse ASAP, which its on the brink of doing, that i do know

[trasnanadtonnta]

your the one who quoted these bits of Junior Cert literature to try and look intelligent, and then proceeded to point out that you did such,which was a blatant attempt to more intelligent than me, so that says plenty about you.

I said the precise opposite, Liam. I said that quoting JC lit couldn't possibly make me look intelligent. Being able to quote literature is just a matter of having it memorised. There's no smarts in that.

Liam, I don't say things to make me look intelligent. I occasionally, when I get lucky, with a good tail wind, say things that make me look intelligent. You may do the former, but you have never, ever done the latter, and, as long as you maintain this arrogant, delusional faith in your own alleged brilliance, you never will.

ever hear of when in a hole, you should stop digging. its way to easy to tear you to shreds

Physician, heal thyself.

[nemesis]

good to see you've actually cut the crap that you obviously knew nothing about.

Liam, I've answered (http://www.peoplesrepublico fcork.com/~peoplesr/forums/showpost.php?p=14190 46&postcount=113) your claims (http://www.peoplesrepublico fcork.com/~peoplesr/forums/showpost.php?p=14190 66&postcount=116) point (http://www.peoplesrepublico fcork.com/~peoplesr/forums/showthread.php?t=976 24&page=3) by point (http://www.peoplesrepublico fcork.com/~peoplesr/forums/showpost.php?p=14190 67&postcount=117). There's no need for me to continue talking about them because I've showed you that what you're saying is wrong. In particular, you don't seem willing to understand that somebody can be released from custody without charge and yet still not be in the clear as a file has been sent to the DPP. That's a pretty strange opinion given what happened in Limerick (http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0226/rta.html) over the weekend.

you tell me one thing the irish gov. has done to prevent inflation beyond the EU average in ireland.

The EU average rate of inflation is unimportant in relation to the rate of inflation in Ireland because each EU state has a different economy. Trying to compare, for example, the Irish inflation rate to that of the Greek, German, or French rates is meaningless because their economic conditions are so different.

And you want an example of how the government attempted to influence inflation? Sure: the SSIA. McCreevy's introduction of the SSIAs was a (successful) attempt to cool inflation rises directly linked to consumer price growth over a five year period. Another example? Sure: the abolition of the groceries order. Another example? Sure: the partnership agreements with unions to fix salary growth. Another example? Sure: the introduction of a consumer energy ombudsman to monitor price growth in the energy market. The list goes on and on and on. Sometimes their attempts work, sometimes they don't.

anyway i don't know that much about economics, (hence why i didn't mention it in my original post), all i expressed was a wish for the housing market to collapse ASAP, which its on the brink of doing, that i do know

Nobody will know whether or not the housing market has collapsed until after it happens. This is the case in all housing market crashes that I'm aware of: London during the early nineties, the US two years ago, and Tokyo during the nineties. What we're seeing is much more likely to be a cooling of house price rises, not a crash. That said, if in two years time we find that the housing market has crashed, I'll be the first to admit it. All I'm saying is that there's not enough movement either way in the market at present for anyone but some bored newspaper pundits to claim there's a crash going on.

And finally: the Irish economy is in much, much more danger from the ECB's rate rises over the coming years than it is from home grown inflationary pressure. As the german economy starts to boil again you'll see the ECB increasing interest rates, probably by as much as two percent over the next three years. That's going to damage the housing market in Ireland way more than anything the Irish government could do.

And let's be honest about something ehre Liam, anybody that "expresses a wish for the housing market to collapse" is a pretty sick fucking puppy. You want the housing market to collapse and people to lose their homes just so you can feel smug in your claims about the government.

That's a fucking sick mind right there.

[shamalive]

Liam, I've answered (http://www.peoplesrepublico fcork.com/~peoplesr/forums/showpost.php?p=14190 46&postcount=113) your claims (http://www.peoplesrepublico fcork.com/~peoplesr/forums/showpost.php?p=14190 66&postcount=116) point (http://www.peoplesrepublico fcork.com/~peoplesr/forums/showthread.php?t=976 24&page=3) by point (http://www.peoplesrepublico fcork.com/~peoplesr/forums/showpost.php?p=14190 67&postcount=117). There's no need for me to continue talking about them because I've showed you that what you're saying is wrong. In particular, you don't seem willing to understand that somebody can be released from custody without charge and yet still not be in the clear as a file has been sent to the DPP. That's a pretty strange opinion given what happened in Limerick (http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0226/rta.html) over the weekend.



The EU average rate of inflation is unimportant in relation to the rate of inflation in Ireland because each EU state has a different economy. Trying to compare, for example, the Irish inflation rate to that of the Greek, German, or French rates is meaningless because their economic conditions are so different.

And you want an example of how the government attempted to influence inflation? Sure: the SSIA. McCreevy's introduction of the SSIAs was a (successful) attempt to cool inflation rises directly linked to consumer price growth over a five year period. Another example? Sure: the abolition of the groceries order. Another example? Sure: the partnership agreements with unions to fix salary growth. Another example? Sure: the introduction of a consumer energy ombudsman to monitor price growth in the energy market. The list goes on and on and on. Sometimes their attempts work, sometimes they don't.



Nobody will know whether or not the housing market has collapsed until after it happens. This is the case in all housing market crashes that I'm aware of: London during the early nineties, the US two years ago, and Tokyo during the nineties. What we're seeing is much more likely to be a cooling of house price rises, not a crash. That said, if in two years time we find that the housing market has crashed, I'll be the first to admit it. All I'm saying is that there's not enough movement either way in the market at present for anyone but some bored newspaper pundits to claim there's a crash going on.

And finally: the Irish economy is in much, much more danger from the ECB's rate rises over the coming years than it is from home grown inflationary pressure. As the german economy starts to boil again you'll see the ECB increasing interest rates, probably by as much as two percent over the next three years. That's going to damage the housing market in Ireland way more than anything the Irish government could do.

And let's be honest about something ehre Liam, anybody that "expresses a wish for the housing market to collapse" is a pretty sick fucking puppy. You want the housing market to collapse and people to lose their homes just so you can feel smug in your claims about the government.

That's a fucking sick mind right there.


Excellent post.
Might be worth noting that a housing market crash would create problems
for more than just house owners. Almost everyone is linked to the market at this stage, if not directly (banks and builders as well as their employees), then at the very least indirectly (and enough to suffer some consequences).

[Hieronymus Bosch]

but the department of justice was under investigation




No it wasn't.
The Garda handling of the case was under investigation.
You can't have the Gardai investigating themselves so the Dept. of Justice appointed George Birmingham. He investigated, made his conclusions, reported to the Dail and the Garda Commissioner has been sent a copy for his consideration.
The journalist was complicit in an attempt to undermine the investigation. In effect he showed scant regard for the truth, as he was more interested in a scoop than the truth about Dean Lyons "confession". He also had no regard for the rights of people under investigation. He broke the law and should expect to be arrested.

[liam2me]

Liam, I've answered (http://www.peoplesrepublico fcork.com/~peoplesr/forums/showpost.php?p=14190 46&postcount=113) your claims (http://www.peoplesrepublico fcork.com/~peoplesr/forums/showpost.php?p=14190 66&postcount=116) point (http://www.peoplesrepublico fcork.com/~peoplesr/forums/showthread.php?t=976 24&page=3) by point (http://www.peoplesrepublico fcork.com/~peoplesr/forums/showpost.php?p=14190 67&postcount=117). There's no need for me to continue talking about them because I've showed you that what you're saying is wrong. In particular, you don't seem willing to understand that somebody can be released from custody without charge and yet still not be in the clear as a file has been sent to the DPP. That's a pretty strange opinion given what happened in Limerick (http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0226/rta.html) over the weekend.

Ok lets get stuck in the, you have replied to some of my posts and every point you have made I have proven to be wrong, (or you have just gone on an irrelevant rant). There hasn’t been a point made that you have been right about, not a single one, and I have proven that. Your attempt to say I’m going off track is proof that you know it too, as I haven’t changed my view in any way shape or form.
You really should stop digging when your this deep.

The EU average rate of inflation is unimportant in relation to the rate of inflation in Ireland because each EU state has a different economy. Trying to compare, for example, the Irish inflation rate to that of the Greek, German, or French rates is meaningless because their economic conditions are so different.

And you want an example of how the government attempted to influence inflation? Sure: the SSIA. McCreevy's introduction of the SSIAs was a (successful) attempt to cool inflation rises directly linked to consumer price growth over a five year period. Another example? Sure: the abolition of the groceries order. Another example? Sure: the partnership agreements with unions to fix salary growth. Another example? Sure: the introduction of a consumer energy ombudsman to monitor price growth in the energy market. The list goes on and on and on. Sometimes their attempts work, sometimes they don't.



Nobody will know whether or not the housing market has collapsed until after it happens. This is the case in all housing market crashes that I'm aware of: London during the early nineties, the US two years ago, and Tokyo during the nineties. What we're seeing is much more likely to be a cooling of house price rises, not a crash. That said, if in two years time we find that the housing market has crashed, I'll be the first to admit it. All I'm saying is that there's not enough movement either way in the market at present for anyone but some bored newspaper pundits to claim there's a crash going on.

And finally: the Irish economy is in much, much more danger from the ECB's rate rises over the coming years than it is from home grown inflationary pressure. As the german economy starts to boil again you'll see the ECB increasing interest rates, probably by as much as two percent over the next three years. That's going to damage the housing market in Ireland way more than anything the Irish government could do.

As I’ve already said I know fuck all about economics, and have said that, I did not bring it up and I think your only doing so in a thinly veiled disguise to try and change the subject because you have been wrong on everything else so far.

And let's be honest about something ehre Liam, anybody that "expresses a wish for the housing market to collapse" is a pretty sick fucking puppy. You want the housing market to collapse and people to lose their homes just so you can feel smug in your claims about the government.

That's a fucking sick mind right there.

Actually its not a sick mind by any means, it’s the rich and powerful few who are benefiting most from this boom, they are the cunts who vote for this gov. they are the ones who want to keep the status quo, they are the ones who need a kick up the hole and a house price crash would do that quite nicely.

As a people, the irish were a lot better when they were poor, money has ruined this country

[King demon]

This is a great country if like me you dont want to work.

[nemesis]

Ok lets get stuck in the, you have replied to some of my posts and every point you have made I have proven to be wrong, (or you have just gone on an irrelevant rant). There hasn’t been a point made that you have been right about, not a single one, and I have proven that. Your attempt to say I’m going off track is proof that you know it too, as I haven’t changed my view in any way shape or form.
You really should stop digging when your this deep.

:rolleyes:

As I’ve already said I know fuck all about economics, and have said that, I did not bring it up and I think your only doing so in a thinly veiled disguise to try and change the subject because you have been wrong on everything else so far.

So you make a claim which is based on economics, then admit that you know nothing about economics, and then when somebody points out why your idea is wrong from the point of view of economics, you claim that you're still right?

If I'm in a hole, you've already reached Australia. ;)



Actually its not a sick mind by any means, it’s the rich and powerful few who are benefiting most from this boom, they are the cunts who vote for this gov. they are the ones who want to keep the status quo, they are the ones who need a kick up the hole and a house price crash would do that quite nicely.

Hoping that people lose their homes isn't sick? Hmm. I think you might be on your own with that opinion.

As a people, the irish were a lot better when they were poor, money has ruined this country

Sweet mother of Christ...

[liam2me]

No it wasn't.
The Garda handling of the case was under investigation.
You can't have the Gardai investigating themselves so the Dept. of Justice appointed George Birmingham. He investigated, made his conclusions, reported to the Dail and the Garda Commissioner has been sent a copy for his consideration.
The journalist was complicit in an attempt to undermine the investigation. In effect he showed scant regard for the truth, as he was more interested in a scoop than the truth about Dean Lyons "confession". He also had no regard for the rights of people under investigation. He broke the law and should expect to be arrested.

nuff said.

so by your logic Andrew Gilligan should have been locked up for reporting the gov. lies RE: david kelly and the 45 min claim? so should the journo's who broke the watergate case?

the gov. should be accountable to the people, in every other country the media allows that happen, under our gov. the media are silenced so that the gov. can't be held accountable, thats why these closed door investigations are frequent in ireland, why the tribunals are given narrow remits and why these corrupt cunts want to stop the mahon tribunal because its getting too close to home

[shamalive]

Actually its not a sick mind by any means, it’s the rich and powerful few who are benefiting most from this boom, they are the cunts who vote for this gov. they are the ones who want to keep the status quo, they are the ones who need a kick up the hole and a house price crash would do that quite nicely.

As a people, the irish were a lot better when they were poor, money has ruined this country

Actually its not, in a housing market crash it's generally (to borrow a phrase) Paddy last that's gets stung.

Paddy last is at the bottom of the ladder, he's the guy who's working hard,
earning roughly around the average wage and paying his taxes.
He's the guy that has bought the house at an inflated price,
but he had no choice, he needed to put a roof over his wife and kids heads.

In general, the rich and powerful that you refer to (and I'm assuming you've got something against those people) have all but exited the market by the time the crash happens.
And if they haven't, then they've held the asset for so long that the market would need to crash by more than half for it to effect them.

In general they've already sold to Paddy Last, don't believe me?
Have a look at the likes of AIB selling and leasing back its Bankcentre in Ballsbridge, think they needed the extra liquidity? Like fuck they did.
Have a look at many of the Irish equity funds, and how they're ever so subtley moving away from property related stocks.
Have a look at redemptions in property funds, especially those belonging to
institutional investors, on the up and up.

I'm not going to get involved in your flame war in this thread,
but I will point out that those who you wish to see hurt by a
potential property crash, are in fact, the ones who will least be hurt by it.

[liam2me]

:rolleyes:

no point in that you have been proven to be wrong, take it like a man

So you make a claim which is based on economics, then admit that you know nothing about economics, and then when somebody points out why your idea is wrong from the point of view of economics, you claim that you're still right?

If I'm in a hole, you've already reached Australia. ;)

what claim did i make that was based on economics? is this you nat able to read again? i expressed a wish for the housing market to collapse and by looking at what happened in the UK and fella's saying they've had to drop the asking prices on their properties, twice, and still not able to sell points to one thing



Hoping that people lose their homes isn't sick? Hmm. I think you might be on your own with that opinion.

putting words in my mouth now, really that hole has got you to australia, where did i say i wanted people to lose their homes? its the people who are on the lower end of the scale and don't have homes that will get the best outcome of a housing crash, ie. lower rents, bills, etc. maybe you are one of the rich few that vote FF/PD that want to keep the status quo, that would explain your feeble attempts at argument on every point so far.

Sweet mother of Christ...

its true, ask any older member or irish society, or maybe your to busy supping your cappuccino to do that

[Hieronymus Bosch]

nuff said.

so by your logic Andrew Gilligan should have been locked up for reporting the gov. lies RE: david kelly and the 45 min claim? so should the journo's who broke the watergate case?

the gov. should be accountable to the people, in every other country the media allows that happen, under our gov. the media are silenced so that the gov. can't be held accountable, thats why these closed door investigations are frequent in ireland, why the tribunals are given narrow remits and why these corrupt cunts want to stop the mahon tribunal because its getting too close to home

The difference between Gilligan, Woodward and Bernstein and Mick Mc Cafferty is that in the casese of the UK govt. and Watergate the government were trying to cover things up.
In the Dean Lyons case they were coming to the close of an investigation.
The reason there is a closed door investigation is because rich and powerful vested interests use their resources to stymie public investigations.Do you think the family of a junkie could possibly take on Gardai on their own. The report is public. It's there in black and white. The Gardai who interviewed Dean Lyons along with their notes are on the Dept of Justice website.
The government were trying to shed light on the matter and were hampered by the journalist.
Please answer the following question:
Why does the family of Dean Lyons not have the right to a full investigation into his "confession" without journalistic interference?

[shamalive]

its the people who are on the lower end of the scale and don't have homes that will get the best outcome of a housing crash, ie.

This is completely untrue, in a mild correction, perhaps it has some truth to it,
but in a crash, as I said, completely untrue.

[liam2me]

Actually its not, in a housing market crash it's generally (to borrow a phrase) Paddy last that's gets stung.

Paddy last is at the bottom of the ladder, he's the guy who's working hard,
earning roughly around the average wage and paying his taxes.
He's the guy that has bought the house at an inflated price,
but he had no choice, he needed to put a roof over his wife and kids heads.

In general, the rich and powerful that you refer to (and I'm assuming you've got something against those people) have all but exited the market by the time the crash happens.
And if they haven't, then they've held the asset for so long that the market would need to crash by more than half for it to effect them.

In general they've already sold to Paddy Last, don't believe me?
Have a look at the likes of AIB selling and leasing back its Bankcentre in Ballsbridge, think they needed the extra liquidity? Like fuck they did.
Have a look at many of the Irish equity funds, and how they're ever so subtley moving away from property related stocks.
Have a look at redemptions in property funds, especially those belonging to
institutional investors, on the up and up.

I'm not going to get involved in your flame war in this thread,
but I will point out that those who you wish to see hurt by a
potential property crash, are in fact, the ones who will least be hurt by it.
if thats true, well then i'll take back the housing crash claim, as i said i'm no expert in economics so i am open to correction.

but i will maintain peoples attitudes have changed in ireland as a result of getting money and its ruined the country

[liam2me]

The difference between Gilligan, Woodward and Bernstein and Mick Mc Cafferty is that in the casese of the UK govt. and Watergate the government were trying to cover things up.
In the Dean Lyons case they were coming to the close of an investigation.
The reason there is a closed door investigation is because rich and powerful vested interests use their resources to stymie public investigations.Do you think the family of a junkie could possibly take on Gardai on their own. The report is public. It's there in black and white. The Gardai who interviewed Dean Lyons along with their notes are on the Dept of Justice website.
The government were trying to shed light on the matter and were hampered by the journalist.
Please answer the following question:
Why does the family of Dean Lyons not have the right to a full investigation into his "confession" without journalistic interference?
they do have the right, thats not the problem, the problem is you seem to think that because the Dept. of justice have put something up on their website that it is automatically true. it may be there in black and white, but its there under Dept. of justice rules. the public should have a right to know, it happens that way in every other country in the western world, why is ireland so different? corruption in the extreme is why

[shamalive]

if thats true, well then i'll take back the housing crash claim, as i said i'm no expert in economics so i am open to correction.

but i will maintain peoples attitudes have changed in ireland as a result of getting money and its ruined the country


Perhaps then your definition of "ruined" is different to most others.

The majority of people would say they are better off now than they
were ten or 15 years ago. Ireland consistently scores highly in qulaity of life surveys.
Yes, a wealthier society is not without it problems, but you can't have it all.

[liam2me]

Perhaps then your definition of "ruined" is different to most others.

The majority of people would say they are better off now than they
were ten or 15 years ago. Ireland consistently scores highly in qulaity of life surveys.
Yes, a wealthier society is not without it problems, but you can't have it all.
yes but been found to have the biggest gap between the rich minority and the poor

[Hieronymus Bosch]

they do have the right, thats not the problem, the problem is you seem to think that because the Dept. of justice have put something up on their website that it is automatically true. it may be there in black and white, but its there under Dept. of justice rules. the public should have a right to know, it happens that way in every other country in the western world, why is ireland so different? corruption in the extreme is why

Firstly it's not the Dept of Justice rules.
The laws were passed by the Dail.
Secondly the report concludes that the garda "investigation" was a shambles and is critical of the Gardai. What exactly do you think is being covered up?
Thirdly the public doesn't have an absolute right to know.
For example the public doesn't have a right to know the names of rape victims unless such victims waive their anonimity voluntarily.
Also does the public have the right to know the journalists sources? If "the public has a right to know" then why not that?
The question is one of balancing rights?
Is justice better served by
(a)an investigation into the Gardai being allowed to finish and the investigator being allowed to report to the public or
(b) a member of the organisation under investigation (ie a Garda) being allowed to leak their version of events before the report is finalised.
The fact is that in this case the right of journalists to break stories (which is vital in any democrary) has to take a second place to the right of the Investigator to complete a full investigation.

[nemesis]

yes but been found to have the biggest gap between the rich minority and the poor

That's a lie. Disparity between the rich and the poor within a single economy is most reliably measured by something called a Gini coefficient (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient). India, Russia, the US, Zambia, Brazil, and many other countries have a larger gap between the rich and poor than Ireland.

http://www.worldwatch.org/node/82

And here's a map of income disparity as measured by income Gini coefficient worldwide. Ireland's Gini index is comparable to those of Canada, Estonia, Greece, Lithuania, Spain, Poland, and Switzerland. So not only is Ireland not the most economically unjust country in the world (far from it), it's not even close to being the most economically unjust country in western Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:World_Map_Gini _coefficient.png

And here's more data from the CIA on Gini indices worldwide.

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/fields/2172.html

The point of all these links Liam is that the evidence contradicts what you're saying.

[Hieronymus Bosch]

Firstly it's not the Dept of Justice rules.
The laws were passed by the Dail and the investigation completed by an extremely respected Senior Counsel.
Secondly the report concludes that the garda "investigation" was a shambles and is critical of the Gardai. What exactly do you think is being covered up?
Thirdly the public doesn't have an absolute right to know.
For example the public doesn't have a right to know the names of rape victims unless such victims waive their anonimity voluntarily.
Also does the public have the right to know the journalists sources? If "the public has a right to know" then why not that?
The question is one of balancing rights? Ask yourself
Is justice better served by
(a)an investigation into the Gardai being allowed to finish and the investigator being allowed to report to the public or
(b) a member of the organisation under investigation (ie a Garda) being allowed to leak their version of events before the report is finalised.
The fact is that in this case the right of journalists to break stories (which is vital in any democrary) has to take a second place to the right of the Investigator to complete a full investigation.What gives the journalist the right to interfere with an investigation? Does the family of Dean Lyons not deserve better? Could he not have kept the draft report given to him by the garda and then broke the story if the final version was any different? That would be proof of a cover up and a huge scoop. No instead he chose to undermine the investigation.h

[liam2me]

That's a lie. Disparity between the rich and the poor within a single economy is most reliably measured by something called a Gini coefficient (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient). India, Russia, the US, Zambia, Brazil, and many other countries have a larger gap between the rich and poor than Ireland.

http://www.worldwatch.org/node/82

And here's a map of income disparity as measured by income Gini coefficient worldwide. Ireland's Gini index is comparable to those of Canada, Estonia, Greece, Lithuania, Spain, Poland, and Switzerland. So not only is Ireland not the most economically unjust country in the world (far from it), it's not even close to being the most economically unjust country in western Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:World_Map_Gini _coefficient.png

And here's more data from the CIA on Gini indices worldwide.

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/fields/2172.html

The point of all these links Liam is that the evidence contradicts what you're saying.
i meant in western Europe (it was an EU study), my mistake for not saying so, point still stands.

your clutching at straws lad

[nemesis]

i meant in western Europe (it was an EU study), my mistake for not saying so, point still stands.

No Liam. The data I pointed you towards (the CIA data is the most up to date and is based on EU and US state dept figures) proves that Ireland isn't even the most economically unjust country in western europe (it's about average, in fact, and below your beloved UK). I did in fact point this out in my last post but you must have missed it.

[liam2me]

Firstly it's not the Dept of Justice rules.
The laws were passed by the Dail.
Secondly the report concludes that the garda "investigation" was a shambles and is critical of the Gardai. What exactly do you think is being covered up?
Thirdly the public doesn't have an absolute right to know.
For example the public doesn't have a right to know the names of rape victims unless such victims waive their anonimity voluntarily.
Also does the public have the right to know the journalists sources? If "the public has a right to know" then why not that?
The question is one of balancing rights?
Is justice better served by
(a)an investigation into the Gardai being allowed to finish and the investigator being allowed to report to the public or
(b) a member of the organisation under investigation (ie a Garda) being allowed to leak their version of events before the report is finalised.
The fact is that in this case the right of journalists to break stories (which is vital in any democrary) has to take a second place to the right of the Investigator to complete a full investigation.

i did read your longer version but it won't quote for me, the point is, and your still not a quote.

my point is, and your missing it slightly, is that the report was published via the Dept. of justice, there was obviously something the gov. was embarrassed about otherwise they wouldn't have felt the need to silence this reporter. it stinks of corruption that this gov. is known for

[king of the BONGO]

No Liam. The data I pointed you towards (the CIA data is the most up to date and is based on EU and US state dept figures) proves that Ireland isn't even the most economically unjust country in western europe (it's about average, in fact, and below your beloved UK). I did in fact point this out in my last post but you must have missed it.

you can prove anything with facts and statistics. 'your' only digging deeper

[nemesis]

you can prove anything with facts and statistics. 'your' only digging deeper

I know. I'm ashamed for my devious and cynical use of the facts. :p

[liam2me]

No Liam. The data I pointed you towards (the CIA data is the most up to date and is based on EU and US state dept figures) proves that Ireland isn't even the most economically unjust country in western europe (it's about average, in fact, and below your beloved UK). I did in fact point this out in my last post but you must have missed it.
i'm quoting an EU study, they found this not me, i don't exactly have the resources to go about conducting a study.

here lad http://www.eurofound.europa .eu/eiro/2002/08/word/ie0205204s.doc

http://www.eapn.ie/policy/94

now please give up on this like you have with the other points you were wrong about, in fact why not get back to the topic because your sidetracking to hide the fact you've been found wanting

[nemesis]

i'm quoting an EU study, they found this not me, i don't exactly have the resources to go about conducting a study.

here lad http://www.eurofound.europa .eu/eiro/2002/08/word/ie0205204s.doc

http://www.eapn.ie/policy/94

now please give up on this like you have with the other points you were wrong about, in fact why not get back to the topic because your sidetracking to hide the fact you've been found wanting

Liam, I haven't a clue who you are. Really, I don't. However, your behaviour in this thread makes me think you're one of three things.

1) A wum.

2) Somebody who won't give an inch in an argument, even though all of the evidence points against him.

3) Borderline retarded.

Up to now, I would have said you were a (2). You're definitely not a (3), so you must be a (1).

Fair play, you do it well.

[liam2me]

Liam, I haven't a clue who you are. Really, I don't. However, your behaviour in this thread makes me think you're one of three things.

1) A wum.

2) Somebody who won't give an inch in an argument, even though all of the evidence points against him.

3) Borderline retarded.

Up to now, I would have said you were a (2). You're definitely not a (3), so you must be a (1).

Fair play, you do it well.
lad you've been proven wrong, page after page, and this is what you boil down to? says it all, good to see you can take it on the chin like everyone else

[trasnanadtonnta]

its true, ask any older member or irish society, or maybe your to busy supping your cappuccino to do that

That "we were poor but we were happy" shite is just that: shite. In "the good old days" in Ireland, the facts are that life expectancy was shorter, there was polio, TB and other now-all-but-eradicated diseases, people were less educated, less well cared for medically, had fewer assets, less income, less career and social mobility, and many were forced into emigration just to stay alive. At home, the society, though it had progressive impulses in ways, was basically still repressive and Catholic priests and bishops had a stranglehold on public discourse at virtually every level. How the fuck anybody could say things are not better now is beyond me.

And I'm allergic to coffee, by the way.

[liam2me]

That "we were poor but we were happy" shite is just that: shite. In "the good old days" in Ireland, the facts are that life expectancy was shorter, there was polio, TB and other now-all-but-eradicated diseases, people were less educated, less well cared for medically, had fewer assets, less income, less career and social mobility, and many were forced into emigration just to stay alive. At home, the society, though it had progressive impulses in ways, was basically still repressive and Catholic priests and bishops had a stranglehold on public discourse at virtually every level. How the fuck anybody could say things are not better now is beyond me.

And I'm allergic to coffee, by the way.
how would you know yankee, you been reading about your adopted history again?

i'm going back only 30-40 years, within living memory (kinda indicated that by saying "ask any older member of society") i would like to know how many country people nowadays think life is better. dumplanders and dumplander wannabes will think thinds are better, but sure there's fuck all improvement in rural ireland, and thats where i'm from, you only need to spend 5 mins and try to plan your day to realise your fucked without a car for instance, city folk don't have a clue about that, plastic paddies wouldn't even be able to imagine it.

at least 30-40 years ago there was always a pub to go to in rural area's to meet people, or the creamery, but they're all closing down now. because of laws brought in by this shoddy gov.

[pudgee]

Yeah, but it was happy polio, enjoyable emigration, racous repression

[nemesis]

He's like a little ball of illogical hatred.

[liam2me]

ahh the gang up buddies are here, all we need is exileonpatrickstreet and CB and we'll have the full set, funny how not one of ye can operate without at least one of the others

[pudgee]

how would you know yankee, you been reading about your adopted history again?

i'm going back only 30-40 years, within living memory (kinda indicated that by saying "ask any older member of society") i would like to know how many country people nowadays think life is better. dumplanders and dumplander wannabes will think thinds are better, but sure there's fuck all improvement in rural ireland, and thats where i'm from, you only need to spend 5 mins and try to plan your day to realise your fucked without a car for instance, city folk don't have a clue about that, plastic paddies wouldn't even be able to imagine it.

at least 30-40 years ago there was always a pub to go to in rural area's to meet people, or the creamery, but they're all closing down now. because of laws brought in by this shoddy gov.


Oh Liam, Liam Liam.
The country was a fucking hole 30-40 years ago. It was a repressed, miserable, priest-ridden, poor country. The fact that there were pubs for people to go to (actually, there were pubs for men to go to, while women stayed home making babies and boiling bacon), says nothing. And I must have missed the Closure of Rural Pubs and Creameries Act, 1998.

[trasnanadtonnta]

how would you know yankee, you been reading about your adopted history again?

i'm going back only 30-40 years, within living memory (kinda indicated that by saying "ask any older member of society") i would like to know how many country people nowadays think life is better. dumplanders and dumplander wannabes will think thinds are better, but sure there's fuck all improvement in rural ireland, and thats where i'm from, you only need to spend 5 mins and try to plan your day to realise your fucked without a car for instance, city folk don't have a clue about that, plastic paddies wouldn't even be able to imagine it.

at least 30-40 years ago there was always a pub to go to in rural area's to meet people, or the creamery, but they're all closing down now. because of laws brought in by this shoddy gov.

Liam, 30 or 40 years, everything I said was true, and it was as true in rural Ireland as it was in the cities.

Just because the old lads in the corner of the Lahndahn Irish pub you grew up in used to go on about the good old days and sing where the water lilies grow doesn't mean that that's how it was.

[pudgee]

I do feel that I should point out some journo points:
Bosch - McCaffrey did not hinder the investigation. He published a story on a completed report. It's a bad law.

Liam - Gilligan got the story wrong, which is why he was sacked.

[liam2me]

Oh Liam, Liam Liam.
The country was a fucking hole 30-40 years ago. It was a repressed, miserable, priest-ridden, poor country. The fact that there were pubs for people to go to (actually, there were pubs for men to go to, while women stayed home making babies and boiling bacon), says nothing. And I must have missed the Closure of Rural Pubs and Creameries Act, 1998.
it was poor but the people were happier, i wonder how much time you an the tranny would have spent in rural ireland (tranny in ireland full stop) to be able to have grounds to comment.

oh and if you think that the smoking ban and no children after 9 bans haven't hit rural pubs worse than city pubs, then you really don't know what your talking about

[liam2me]

I do feel that I should point out some journo points:
Bosch - McCaffrey did not hinder the investigation. He published a story on a completed report. It's a bad law.

Liam - Gilligan got the story wrong, which is why he was sacked.
gilligan was sacked because the BBC is a gov. organisation, embarrassing your employer doesn't really lead to great job security does it

[liam2me]

Liam, 30 or 40 years, everything I said was true, and it was as true in rural Ireland as it was in the cities.

Just because the old lads in the corner of the Lahndahn Irish pub you grew up in used to go on about the good old days and sing where the water lilies grow doesn't mean that that's how it was.

is that really the best you have? try and make out that i'm a plastic just because you are? really really immature and futile, go away and play the victim again your good at that, for comedy value that is

[i_hate_ire]

gilligan was sacked because the BBC is a gov. organisation, embarrassing your employer doesn't really lead to great job security does it

There is a difference between state owned and government run.

[trasnanadtonnta]

it was poor but the people were happier, i wonder how much time you an the tranny would have spent in rural ireland (tranny in ireland full stop) to be able to have grounds to comment.

oh and if you think that the smoking ban and no children after 9 bans haven't hit rural pubs worse than city pubs, then you really don't know what your talking about

Liam, would you like me to scan my passport and post it on the PROC, would ya? Cos I'll do it, if that's what it takes. Cos I am just THAT obsessed. Yeah, that's what I'll do, I'll scan my ID and post it! Then ye'd all see and I'd never be a laughing stock again, you'd all see that I know ALL about pharmacy and custard and...oh, sorry, never mind...

Anyway, since when does rural Ireland count more as Ireland than Cork city does? More "authentic", is it? It's ironic that someone who accuses others of being plastic Paddies takes such an American-tourist view of Ireland himself.

[pudgee]

it was poor but the people were happier, i wonder how much time you an the tranny would have spent in rural ireland (tranny in ireland full stop) to be able to have grounds to comment.

oh and if you think that the smoking ban and no children after 9 bans haven't hit rural pubs worse than city pubs, then you really don't know what your talking about

Liam, I'm sorry but you're talking nonsense. You can't even remember the 80s, for God's sake, never mind before then. You're just repeating the ridiculous idea that we were happy, despite the fact that the social disparity you bemoan was far greater back then than it is now.

You're reminding me of a quote from Dolores O Riordan in the Melody Maker in the early 90s: "There's no marital breakdown in Ireland because we don't have divorce." That's the territory you're straying in to here: we were happier because we didn't feel we could talk about what made us unhappy.

And no, I haven't spent a great deal of time in rural Ireland. How much time have you spent in urban Ireland? We count too, you know (and subsidise every fecking blade of grass in the fields).

[pudgee]

gilligan was sacked because the BBC is a gov. organisation, embarrassing your employer doesn't really lead to great job security does it

Yeah, that explains the five hours of Chavez-style Blair propaganda we get every night.

Liam, he got the story wrong. He was sacked. End of.

[i_hate_ire]

Liam, would you like me to scan my passport and post in on the PROC, would ya? Cos I'll do it, if that's what it takes. Cos I am just THAT obsessed. Yeah, that's what I'll do, I'll scan my ID and post it! Then ye'd all see and I'd never be a laughing stock again, you'd all see that I know ALL about pharmacy and custard and...oh, sorry, never mind...

Anyway, since when does rural Ireland count more as Ireland than Cork city does? More "authentic", is it? It's ironic that someone who accuses others of being plastic Paddies takes such an American-tourist view of Ireland himself.
There is no need to be so ashamed of your American roots. You are welcome in Ireland whenever you would like to visit. May I recommend Blarney and also Killarney. They are easy to remember because they rhyme. Cork used to have a good night life too, but the best club, it was called Sir Henry's, has since closed. If you venture into the county-side though, you will find many bars with live county music.

[liam2me]

Liam, would you like me to scan my passport and post in on the PROC, would ya? Cos I'll do it, if that's what it takes. Cos I am just THAT obsessed. Yeah, that's what I'll do, I'll scan my ID and post it! Then ye'd all see and I'd never be a laughing stock again, you'd all see that I know ALL about pharmacy and custard and...oh, sorry, never mind...

you really think thats going to wind me up? thing is plastic i don't care about you, or any of the other screen names on here, whereas by admittance you lot send PM's flying about the place about me, and that post by your colleague CB just shows that i actually affect your lives outside of here, either that or you have no life outside of here, or both. you can tar me with what ever you like, it will be like water off a ducks back, whereas i know for a fact that what i say sticks to you lot lck caramel to a fat chick.

Anyway, since when does rural Ireland count more as Ireland than Cork city does? More "authentic", is it? It's ironic that someone who accuses others of being plastic Paddies takes such an American-tourist view of Ireland himself.

never said rural ireland counts more, (putting words in my mouth now, poor argument) rural ireland has been affected in a negative way, much more than the cities

[i_hate_ire]

I'm beginning to see it in this thread. Where do I sign up for mossad money?

[liam2me]

Yeah, that explains the five hours of Chavez-style Blair propaganda we get every night.

Liam, he got the story wrong. He was sacked. End of.
erm, no he didn't, the gov. got it very wrong, the whole 45 min claim, WMD lies, war in iraq, etc. or have you deliberately forgotten that so to save your blushes for supporting it?

[pudgee]

I'm beginning to see it in this thread. Where do I sign up for mossad money?

http://internationaljewishc onspiracy.com/

[pudgee]

erm, no he didn't, the gov. got it very wrong, the whole 45 min claim, WMD lies, war in iraq, etc. or have you deliberately forgotten that so to save your blushes for supporting it?

Oh dear God.
he misrepresented Dr Kelly badly. It's completely irrelevant what my position on the war was.

[Ciotóg]

I do wish ho chi and Cyrill could work for the government and actually explain properly to people why risk equalisation is necessary. They've made a right balls of that in fairness, explaining it, that is, but at least their policy is the correct one.

As for the whore journalist who leaked tribunal information that was going to be released in due course anyway, just to get a "scoop" for "Da Herrild", he deserved whatever the law is going to throw his way. The only worrying bit is that he now writes for the Tribune. That's a semi-decent paper.

[trasnanadtonnta]

you really think thats going to wind me up? thing is plastic i don't care about you, or any of the other screen names on here, whereas by admittance you lot send PM's flying about the place about me, and that post by your colleague CB just shows that i actually affect your lives outside of here, either that or you have no life outside of here, or both. you can tar me with what ever you like, it will be like water off a ducks back, whereas i know for a fact that what i say sticks to you lot lck caramel to a fat chick.

By whose admittance, Liam? The only person I have ever PMd about you is you. In fact, I'm not even sure I've PMd you, come to think of it.

With your incredible capacity to ignore truth and evidence, I don't even know why I'm saying it, but I can honestly say that, much as I enjoy beating you up on here, I have never given you a second's thought off the board.

And you know nothing about stickiness, either. How could tar act like water off a duck's back? Tar is sticky. As is caramel, which I would imagine sticks equally well to any person, be it male or female, fat or thin. You're useless, 2me. Give it up like.

[liam2me]

Liam, I'm sorry but you're talking nonsense. You can't even remember the 80s, for God's sake, never mind before then. You're just repeating the ridiculous idea that we were happy, despite the fact that the social disparity you bemoan was far greater back then than it is now.

You're reminding me of a quote from Dolores O Riordan in the Melody Maker in the early 90s: "There's no marital breakdown in Ireland because we don't have divorce." That's the territory you're straying in to here: we were happier because we didn't feel we could talk about what made us unhappy.

And no, I haven't spent a great deal of time in rural Ireland. How much time have you spent in urban Ireland? We count too, you know (and subsidise every fecking blade of grass in the fields).

ha, taking the tranny line, good to see the gang up tactics at their best.

and comparing this to divorse is utter crap pudgee and you know it, people now are so scared shitless of losing what they have that they have become very stingy and treat those who they perceive as not so well off like shit. i see it all the time when i go home.

as for me not remembering the 80's well i never claimed i did, i said i was talking to the older generations, or did you misread that bit?

[exileonpatrickstreet]

whenever i go back to the area of rural ireland in which i grew up, i'm amazed to see how unhappy people are with their bigger cars (cars full stop in come cases), satellite television, longer lives, the longer lives of their relatives, better health and healthcare, their foreign holidays, their better access to media and information, the lack of religious repression. and all teh while, they#re surrounded by beautiful views, peace and quiet and fresh air.

devastated, they all are.

[Hang_Sandwich]

By whose admittance, Liam? The only person I have ever PMd about you is you. In fact, I'm not even sure I've PMd you, come to think of it.

With your incredible capacity to ignore truth and evidence, I don't even know why I'm saying it, but I can honestly say that, much as I enjoy beating you up on here, I have never given you a second's thought off the board.

And you know nothing about stickiness, either. How could tar act like water off a duck's back? Tar is sticky. As is caramel, which I would imagine sticks equally well to any person, be it male or female, fat or thin. You're useless, 2me. Give it up like.

shouldn't you be out clubbing?

[liam2me]

Oh dear God.
he misrepresented Dr Kelly badly. It's completely irrelevant what my position on the war was.
if he misrepresented him then why did kelly keep giving him info up until he was murdered? your full of shit on this issue

[trasnanadtonnta]

shouldn't you be out clubbing?

What does that mean?

[Actin The Sham]

Liam, I'm sorry but you're talking nonsense. You can't even remember the 80s, for God's sake, never mind before then. You're just repeating the ridiculous idea that we were happy, despite the fact that the social disparity you bemoan was far greater back then than it is now.

You're reminding me of a quote from Dolores O Riordan in the Melody Maker in the early 90s: "There's no marital breakdown in Ireland because we don't have divorce." That's the territory you're straying in to here: we were happier because we didn't feel we could talk about what made us unhappy.

And no, I haven't spent a great deal of time in rural Ireland. How much time have you spent in urban Ireland? We count too, you know (and subsidise every fecking blade of grass in the fields).



Heh heh heh....

[exileonpatrickstreet]

... as for me not remembering the 80's well i never claimed i did, i said i was talking to the older generations, or did you misread that bit?
the older generations who either can't remember the 80s or were already living in london in the 80s?

regardless, a reliable source of information, old irish people in london pubs

[pudgee]

ha, taking the tranny line, good to see the gang up tactics at their best.

and comparing this to divorse is utter crap pudgee and you know it, people now are so scared shitless of losing what they have that they have become very stingy and treat those who they perceive as not so well off like shit. i see it all the time when i go home.

as for me not remembering the 80's well i never claimed i did, i said i was talking to the older generations, or did you misread that bit?

Yawn.
Liam, the country has it's problems. All countries have their problems, all the time. But to imagine that we were better off with less rights, less money, less education and less employment is frankly bizarre.

I mean, for a start. You've heard of laundries and industrial schools, right? Was the country better off when these sorts of things existed?

You've heard (I'm sure) of emigration. Was the country better off when half a generation had to leave the country just to find a job?

[liam2me]

By whose admittance, Liam? The only person I have ever PMd about you is you. In fact, I'm not even sure I've PMd you, come to think of it.

in various threads my dear, how easy it is for you to forget, and don't lie that you have never PM's you little gang buddies about me.

With your incredible capacity to ignore truth and evidence, I don't even know why I'm saying it, but I can honestly say that, much as I enjoy beating you up on here, I have never given you a second's thought off the board.

beating me up? love last time you tried on this thread you were used to wipe the floor, time before that you played victim and daisy really got stuck into you and that was priceless.

And you know nothing about stickiness, either. How could tar act like water off a duck's back? Tar is sticky. As is caramel, which I would imagine sticks equally well to any person, be it male or female, fat or thin. You're useless, 2me. Give it up like.

where the feck are ya getting tar from i said water? are you slow or something? actually we already know that.

ahh your going to play the feminist victim again, ha- hook, line and sinker

it looks more like you are the useless one

[liam2me]

the older generations who either can't remember the 80s or were already living in london in the 80s?

regardless, a reliable source of information, old irish people in london pubs

copying tranny ha, you really are a poor attempt at a WUM, how well i predicted you'd show up too. where's the PM to CB gone to get the last of the gang up gomes onboard

[the puerto rican feen]

Ireland was better off before, how romantic !

What with pervert priests sheltered by the church, > 20% unemployment, mass emigration, huge national debt, infected blood scandals, TB, the vice like grip of the catholic church in this country, etc


but sure the drink was cheaper and the pubs were great craic.

[exileonpatrickstreet]

you predicted i'd show up? woah, nostradaumus there.

anyway, foolah, i'm agreeing with you. my family emigrated to ireland in the 80s. we must have been just about the only people to do so in the entire decade, but then my father's always been ahead of the game.

ah, yes, the happy days of my childhood, dodging persecution by the catholics and cuddling up to the rats for warmth.

[trasnanadtonnta]

in various threads my dear, how easy it is for you to forget, and don't lie that you have never PM's you little gang buddies about me.

How could I have PMd someone in a thread? This is just gibberish.

beating me up? love last time you tried on this thread you were used to wipe the floor, time before that you played victim and daisy really got stuck into you and that was priceless.

I thought you said it was MinXy who "pwned" me? (I don't recall either happening, to be honest.)

where the feck are ya getting tar from i said water? are you slow or something? actually we already know that.

You talked about tarring you with a brush. That's a metaphor, Liam.

ahh your going to play the feminist victim again, ha- hook, line and sinker

it looks more like you are the useless one

I'm sorry, what did I say that was remotely relarted to feminism?

[pudgee]

Ireland was better off before, how romantic !

What with pervert priests sheltered by the church, > 20% unemployment, mass emigration, huge national debt, infected blood scandals, TB, the vice like grip of the catholic church in this country, etc


but sure the drink was cheaper and the pubs were great craic.

Proportionate to income, I'm pretty sure drink was actually more expensive.
At least you could smoke at work though. And the Latin masses were lovely.

[liam2me]

Yawn.
Liam, the country has it's problems. All countries have their problems, all the time. But to imagine that we were better off with less rights, less money, less education and less employment is frankly bizarre.

I mean, for a start. You've heard of laundries and industrial schools, right? Was the country better off when these sorts of things existed?

You've heard (I'm sure) of emigration. Was the country better off when half a generation had to leave the country just to find a job?

ok i'll give it to ya, things may have improved in dumpland and cork city, but things certainly haven't improved in the countryside. all the big cars you see are eith A) the city fella's coming down to their holiday homes or B) out of necessity because this shoddy gov. has left people with no alternative due to shocking public transport and even worse roads forcing people to have to replace their warn out cars much fasted than in any other EU state

[trasnanadtonnta]

ok i'll give it to ya, things may have improved in dumpland and cork city, but things certainly haven't improved in the countryside. all the big cars you see are eith A) the city fella's coming down to their holiday homes or B) out of necessity because this shoddy gov. has left people with no alternative due to shocking public transport and even worse roads forcing people to have to replace their warn out cars much fasted than in any other EU state

So there was no need for people to own cars in rural Ireland before, was there? They just didn't bother because they didn't like them?

[Lamps]

You never saw a poor farmer.

Game set and match to me Lame, next

[pudgee]

ok i'll give it to ya, things may have improved in dumpland and cork city, but things certainly haven't improved in the countryside. all the big cars you see are eith A) the city fella's coming down to their holiday homes or B) out of necessity because this shoddy gov. has left people with no alternative due to shocking public transport and even worse roads forcing people to have to replace their warn out cars much fasted than in any other EU state

Liam, the country hasn't had a decent public transport system since the railways were allowed to fall apart in the 50s. You can hardly blame Bertie Ahern for that.

And most emigration and poverty was in the rural community.

[Lamps]

So there was no need for people to own cars in rural Ireland before, was there? They just didn't bother because they didn't like them?

easy on the logic there Trasna, FFS

[trasnanadtonnta]

easy on the logic there Trasna, FFS

Sorry, Lamps. I know there's no call for bringing facts into it. That's just not fair on 2me like.

[liam2me]

How could I have PMd someone in a thread? This is just gibberish.

youmention that there were PM's flying about me in a thread, jesus do i have to spoon feed ya now too?

I thought you said it was MinXy who "pwned" me? (I don't recall either happening, to be honest.)

minxy, daisym, whoever it was is irrelevant but the thread where you went into victim mode was pricesless and to say you don't remember it is a downright lie, trasnanadtonnta you are a liar

You talked about tarring you with a brush. That's a metaphor, Liam.

hey your the one who got confused thinking i was tarring a duck, good to see you've figured out it was a metaphor

I'm sorry, what did I say that was remotely relarted to feminism?

oh caramel will stick to a man as much as a women, etc. knew you would pick up on it and go into victim mode again. hook, line, sinker

[mr m]

There was a reason why Ireland had huge emmigration. The country was a shithole.
Why is it always people who no longer live in this country always have this romanticised view of Ireland being better back in the day? It was a dump. Its also a fact that everone in the Ireland during the 70's was pig ugly.

[exileonpatrickstreet]

fudge is a feminist issue

[Lamps]

youmention that there were PM's flying about me in a thread, jesus do i have to spoon feed ya now too?



minxy, daisym, whoever it was is irrelevant but the thread where you went into victim mode was pricesless and to say you don't remember it is a downright lie, trasnanadtonnta you are a liar



hey your the one who got confused thinking i was tarring a duck, good to see you've figured out it was a metaphor



oh caramel will stick to a man as much as a women, etc. knew you would pick up on it and go into victim mode again. hook, line, sinker

Jesus Christ, I known more coherent dogs.

[trasnanadtonnta]

hook, line, sinker


Right, lads, he's right. He has me well beaten. He's smarter, more insightful, more articulate, better informed, I've had my arse royally handed to me, and I'm shamed.

I'm quitting the PROC. For good. Seriously. There's just no way I can cope with the shame of this like. I have been exposed for the ignorant plastic Paddy that I am, my Irish "passport" not worth the paper it was faked on.

I will also, of course, be dropping out of my PhD programme, and retracting the papers I've submitted for conferences and publication. Liam has shown me the light. I am a stupid, ignorant feminazi freak. Everyone hates me. I am a laughing stock. I don't know why I have this obsession with Ireland, I've never even been there. I come from Idaho...

I...I need help.

I can see that now.

Goodbye, PROC. I shall see you in my dreams.

[liam2me]

Jesus Christ, I known more coherent dogs.
hey lamps you sick of being bitchslapped over on the sports foum so you've come over here to join the other cowards who can't stand alone?

[the puerto rican feen]

Proportionate to income, I'm pretty sure drink was actually more expensive.
At least you could smoke at work though. And the Latin masses were lovely.

True, but most will only see the difference in numbers.


The eucharistic procession was great too.

[pudgee]

Right, lads, he's right. He has me well beaten. He's smarter, more insightful, more articulate, better informed, I've had my arse royally handed to me, and I'm shamed.

I'm quitting the PROC. For good. Seriously. There's just no way I can cope with the shame of this like. I have been exposed for the ignorant plastic Paddy that I am, my Irish "passport" not worth the paper it was faked on.

I will also, of course, be dropping out of my PhD programme, and retracting the papers I've submitted for conferences and publication. Liam has shown me the light. I am a stupid, ignorant feminazi freak. Everyone hates me. I am a laughing stock. I don't know why I have this obsession with Ireland, I've never even been there. I come from Idaho...

I...I need help.

I can see that now.

Goodbye, PROC. I shall see you in my dreams.


Your Mossad handler will be disappointed

[trasnanadtonnta]

Your Mossad handler will be disappointed

Nah, Abner always knew I wasn't Irish. It was kind of an unspoken thing.

[liam2me]

so ye cowardly shits have sent the PM's round so ye can gang up 6 or 7 on 1 christ, good to see your that worried, pathetic, debilitated and completley unable to deal with me one on one that ye have to round up the posse. good stuff

[exileonpatrickstreet]

we don't use pm, liar2me. we use miniature satellite phones implanted in our ears and mouths. moreover, we've got three different cameras trained on your desk, a tail outside your house and a rapid response unit posing as the staff of your local corner shop.

oh, and your cornflakes are bugged.

[mr m]

I have received a total of 3 pm's in the time I have been on this site.
You can't be right all the time Liam. No-one is.

[the puerto rican feen]

so ye cowardly shits have sent the PM's round so ye can gang up 6 or 7 on 1 christ, good to see your that worried, pathetic, debilitated and completley unable to deal with me one on one that ye have to round up the posse. good stuff

don't be such a drama queen

[pudgee]

My favourite thing about Liam is the way he wins arguments by the simple knack of saying 'I won the argument'.

That's the exact same way I won the Poc Fada five years running, despite not having any arms.

[exileonpatrickstreet]

My favourite thing about Liam is the way he wins arguments by the simple knack of saying 'I won the argument'.
hey, it works for jesus. and jesus is a winner

[Professor Piehead]

so ye cowardly shits have sent the PM's round so ye can gang up 6 or 7 on 1 christ, good to see your that worried, pathetic, debilitated and completley unable to deal with me one on one that ye have to round up the posse. good stuff


http://www.halloween-mask.com/morris2005/big_head_nerd_mr0310 80mor.jpg

[AmadeusDC]

hey lamps you sick of being bitchslapped over on the sports foum so you've come over here to join the other cowards who can't stand alone?

haha, lmao!!! The boy who has all but disappeared from the Sports Forum recently calls out a Sports Forum main stay who love him or hate him at least sticks around when he is under pressure. If ever there was a bitch slapping on that forum it was each and every time MonTheHoops has taken you to the cleaners in arguments. In fairness happens on an embarrassingly frequent basis. -AmadeusDC-

[i_hate_ire]

Right, lads, he's right. He has me well beaten. He's smarter, more insightful, more articulate, better informed, I've had my arse royally handed to me, and I'm shamed.

I'm quitting the PROC. For good. Seriously. There's just no way I can cope with the shame of this like. I have been exposed for the ignorant plastic Paddy that I am, my Irish "passport" not worth the paper it was faked on.

I will also, of course, be dropping out of my PhD programme, and retracting the papers I've submitted for conferences and publication. Liam has shown me the light. I am a stupid, ignorant feminazi freak. Everyone hates me. I am a laughing stock. I don't know why I have this obsession with Ireland, I've never even been there. I come from Idaho...

I...I need help.

I can see that now.

Goodbye, PROC. I shall see you in my dreams.

Never liked her.

[trasnanadtonnta]

Never liked her.

That's what they're saying around the philosophy department too.

I AM leaving the PROC now like, I just came back to get me stuff like.

I can't believe ye just left it in the driveway like that. In the rain. If I had a tail, it would be between my legs.

[liam2me]

haha, lmao!!! The boy who has all but disappeared from the Sports Forum recently calls out a Sports Forum main stay who love him or hate him at least sticks around when he is under pressure. If ever there was a bitch slapping on that forum it was each and every time MonTheHoops has taken you to the cleaners in arguments. In fairness happens on an embarrassingly frequent basis. -AmadeusDC-
considering i've been sick and away from my computer for various reasons the guts of 3 weeks, that really makes sense, me not sticking around like, can't type without a computer, well not yet anyway, you silly little boy.

and as for MON, last time he was near me he ran off upset that i used his tactics against him.

it really is great to see ye cowardly shits all acting as one, really would love to see you stand on your own 2 feet, every one of you are incapable of that.

no one is actually playing the ball and not the man (god i love that saying)

[Matlock]

That's what they're saying around the philosophy department too.

I AM leaving the PROC now like, I just came back to get me stuff like.

I can't believe ye just left it in the driveway like that. In the rain. If I had a tail, it would be between my legs.

Dont leave me tayto...

[i_hate_ire]

considering i've been sick and away from my computer for various reasons the guts of 3 weeks, that really makes sense, me not sticking around like, can't type without a computer, well not yet anyway, you silly little boy.

and as for MON, last time he was near me he ran off upset that i used his tactics against him.

it really is great to see ye cowardly shits all acting as one, really would love to see you stand on your own 2 feet, every one of you are incapable of that

True, the thing about the proc's oligarchs, is that they would make shit monarchs.

Benevolent philosopher kings, my arse!

[pudgee]

no one is actually playing the ball and not the man (god i love that saying)

If only you understood what it meant.

Trasna, I'm struggling for a soundtrack. Should it be 'Littlest Hobo' or something a little more tragic?

[exileonpatrickstreet]

'hold me now' by johnny logan

[pudgee]

'hold me now' by johnny logan

The original, or the Belgian Hip-Pop remix.

I got Johnny Logan's autograph when I was nine. It was a proud moment.

[Professor Piehead]

If only you understood what it meant.

Trasna, I'm struggling for a soundtrack. Should it be 'Littlest Hobo' or something a little more tragic?

Dvorak-New world symphony.

'Toast of the town'

[ho chi feen]

I do wish ho chi and Cyrill could work for the government and actually explain properly to people why risk equalisation is necessary. They've made a right balls of that in fairness, explaining it, that is, but at least their policy is the correct one.

It's an regulatory mechanism to preseve community rating. It's not the only mechanism that could be used to do so, as I've already said. Without such a mechanism in place, community rating could only survive, in the long run, through consolidating the various operators into a private monopoly. That would mean no price competiton, no service competition, nothing. You don't like the price you're offered then? Tough shit, there'd be no other provider to go to. We're trying to move away from the previous publicly owned monpoly whilst keeping community rating.

The obvious alternative would be to scrap community rating altogether. This would be a bad idea, one which would lead to people of a certain age, and those with certain medical being left in a position where, unless they happened to be super-rich, they would find themselves priced out of the market. I don't think the political will is there for this, as public opinion is dead set against it.

Now, personally, I've no time for Mary Harney, and I despise the PDs as a party- but she (and they) are nothing if not arch free-marketeers. So for anyone to suggest they are somehow trying to sabotage attempts at creating a market for health-insurance is fairly laughable. As any economist worth their salt will tell you, they only certainty about markets is that, in practice they are imperfect, for many reasons. That's why markets generally, require a certain amount of regulation- to prevent cartels manipulating the market, to ensure fair and robust competition, and, more important than anything else, to prevent monopolies killing the market.

Right, when am I due to go live on air with this, Matt?

[Ciotóg]

It's an regulatory mechanism to preseve community rating. It's not the only mechanism that could be used to do so, as I've already said. Without such a mechanism in place, community rating could only survive, in the long run, through consolidating the various operators into a private monopoly. That would mean no price competiton, no service competition, nothing. You don't like the price you're offered then? Tough shit, there'd be no other provider to go to. We're trying to move away from the previous publicly owned monpoly whilst keeping community rating.

The obvious alternative would be to scrap community rating altogether. This would be a bad idea, one which would lead to people of a certain age, and those with certain medical being left in a position where, unless they happened to be super-rich, they would find themselves priced out of the market. I don't think the political will is there for this, as public opinion is dead set against it.

Now, personally, I've no time for Mary Harney, and I despise the PDs as a party- but she (and they) are nothing if not arch free-marketeers. So for anyone to suggest they are somehow trying to sabotage attempts at creating a market for health-insurance is fairly laughable. As any economist worth their salt will tell you, they only certainty about markets is that, in practice they are imperfect, for many reasons. That's why markets generally, require a certain amount of regulation- to prevent cartels manipulating the market, to ensure fair and robust competition, and, more important than anything else, to prevent monopolies killing the market.
I realise all this. I've tried to argue it before, with the "free-market fixes all problems" brigade, though not quite so well.

I just wish the government could find someone to explain it to the average non-PROC reading voter. There are many reasons why there should be a change of government - this isn't one of them.

[ho chi feen]

I realise all this. I've tried to argue it before, with the "free-market fixes all problems" brigade, though not quite so well.

I just wish the government could find someone to explain it to the average non-PROC reading voter. There are many reasons why there should be a change of government - this isn't one of them.

Yup. I agree, anytime I've heard somebody wheeled out to explain it, they've made a complete hash of it. Shame. It's not rocket-science.

There's litle point in discussing anythint with the "free-market fixes all problems" brigade though, mind you. Markets are great, capitalism can do great things, but both have a natural inclination towards spawning dominant entities if left to their own devices, and so need to prodded in the right direction, from time-to-time

[Matlock]

Yup. I agree, anytime I've heard somebody wheeled out to explain it, they've made a complete hash of it. Shame. It's not rocket-science.

Thats part of it, the other part is that most people just dont care. I tried to start a discussion on voter apathy earlier.

Nobody replied!

[ho chi feen]

Thats part of it, the other part is that most people just dont care. I tried to start a discussion on voter apathy earlier.

Nobody replied!

Heh heh heh heh heh

[liam2me]

Thats part of it, the other part is that most people just dont care. I tried to start a discussion on voter apathy earlier.

Nobody replied!
i saw that, but just didn't care

[Matlock]

i saw that, but just didn't care

Yep - that jokes has kinda been made already pet.

Kudos though...

[babybliss]

A shower of cunts the lot of them!