Cork Airport

[mrbobdobalina]

From rte.ie:

"The row over who will pay the €220m debt at Cork Airport is approaching an end. The Government has instructed the Dublin Airport Authority to retain €120m euro of the debt and Cork Airport Authority to take on the remainder."

So Cork is stuck with €100million debt? That will help get flights in alright.

[northsidescumbag]

From rte.ie:

"The row over who will pay the €220m debt at Cork Airport is approaching an end. The Government has instructed the Dublin Airport Authority to retain €120m euro of the debt and Cork Airport Authority to take on the remainder."

So Cork is stuck with €100million debt? That will help get flights in alright.

Why should Dublin have to pay over half of it?

[Rebels Mascot]

Because the government promised that Cork would be debt free and seen as Dublin is a far busier airport they'd be able to pay off the debt alot easier than Cork would especially now since we've lost so many routes & will have to compete with Knock, Shannon and Dublin for transatlantic flights should we ever get them

[storysham]

100 million is better than 220 million

[Echoboy]

Why should Dublin have to pay over half of it?

Are you serious ?? Or do you really not know the whole story ??

[Echoboy]

And remember, we have to pay this €1,000,000.00 because of the present government. No one in Cork should vote for FF after this. Places closing down all over the gaff and very hard to get new jobs to replace them because they have fawked this up. Half the airport business park is empty now as a result.

Hopefully the airport can turn this around to some degree, not help from Minister for Transport (Cullen, kunt more like) i'd bet.

[doppellanger]

And remember, we have to pay this €1,000,000.00 because of the present government. No one in Cork should vote for FF after this. Places closing down all over the gaff and very hard to get new jobs to replace them because they have fawked this up. Half the airport business park is empty now as a result.

Hopefully the airport can turn this around to some degree, not help from Minister for Transport (Cullen, kunt more like) i'd bet.

What are the odds Mikilín Martin will ride in like the cavalry just before the election and "save" the airport the 100 mill?

[hans aus dtschl]

it would be very convenient alright, for Minister "Captain Fantastic" Martin to sort it all out alright, but I'd even prefer that to the current shambolic situation.

The government that's in is corrupt to the core.


The pale rule should never have been accepted in the first place.


Home rule in the people's republic is the only solution.

[Actin The Sham]

Why should Dublin have to pay over half of it?

The DAA (Dublin Airport Authority) is the new name for Aer Rianta. It has responsibility for all three Airports, (Dublin, Shannon and Cork.) It was envisaged that Shannon and Cork would be spun off as independent entities. This has not yet happened. As part of this deal, The Great Southern Hotel Group and Aer Rianta International would remain in the hands of Aer Rianta after the spin off of Cork and Shannon Airports.


It was also envisaged that Cork airport would start operations debt free to compensate it for losing its share of Aer Rianta International and Great Southern Hotels.

Now in a political Volte Face, the government is proposing that Cork Airport be lumbered with a €100 million debt for the new terminal, while Aer Rianta International and the €220 Million windfall which acrued to Aer Rianta after the sale of the Great Southern Hotel Group be transferred to the new Dublin Airport Authority.


So can we please forget all this horseshit about "Dublin" having to pay?

[Actin The Sham]

And remember, we have to pay this €1,000,000.00 because of the present government. No one in Cork should vote for FF after this. Places closing down all over the gaff and very hard to get new jobs to replace them because they have fawked this up. Half the airport business park is empty now as a result.

Hopefully the airport can turn this around to some degree, not help from Minister for Transport (Cullen, kunt more like) i'd bet.

Would that be the same Minister Cullen who berated the Cork Airport Local Management for the over run in the costs of the construction of the new terminal in the dáil? The same Minister who said "they want to be independent from Dublin and they can't even get their terminal built and opened on time?" even though it was actually THE DUBLIN AIRPORT AUTHORITY that was responsible for the project management, design, and construction of the new terminal?

I think Del Boy put it best when he said: "What a plonker!"


http://www.bbc.co.uk/southerncounties/interactive/i-collect/images/del_boy_270.jpg

[Tube a Pringles]

Era 100 million. If they put an additional 50 euro tax on all passengers next year they'll have it paid off in less than 12 months.....

[Actin The Sham]

Era 100 million. If they put an additional 50 euro tax on all passengers next year they'll have it paid off in less than 12 months.....


If they put an additinal €50 on every passenger they might as well close down.

[Tube a Pringles]

If they put an additinal €50 on every passenger they might as well close down.

I was winding you up you mook.......

[EDDIEB]

If they put an additinal €50 on every passenger they might as well close down.

Fianna Fail are going to be screwed at the polls in Cork after this.
Cullen is useless,Flyovers for Sarsfield Road & Bandon Road,Macroom By-pass,
Railway and bus investment ? North Ring Road,Fermoy tolls,No transatlantic flights from Cork yet Knock has U.S. flights.

Farce.

[Actin The Sham]

I was winding you up you mook.......

I was winding you up with my one sentence reply....

[doppellanger]

Wonder what the interest rate will be on the 100 million?

[Actin The Sham]

RTÉ demonstrate their breathtaking Dumpland bias in merely reportin the story as well, by opening with "The row over funding for Cork Airport is set to end....."



Set to end????


Set to FUCKING END????????????



That's like saying that the burning down of Cork City Centre by the Brits in 1920 solved the problem of the pesky natives attacking the Black & Tans. Yeah right.

[ataronchronon]

Fianna Fail are going to be screwed at the polls in Cork after this.Cullen is useless,Flyovers for Sarsfield Road & Bandon Road,Macroom By-pass,
Railway and bus investment ? North Ring Road,Fermoy tolls,No transatlantic flights from Cork yet Knock has U.S. flights.

Farce.

A ha ha ha ha.

I love hearing this. I really do.

Cork have been screwed by every Fianna Fáil government since CJH first became Taoiseach.

This will make fuck all difference, bar maybe one seat maximum.

Fianna Fáil have good election strategists. Each sitting TD in this city has an almost clearly defined geographical boundary with the vote base of the next. They will be voted in by the people who always vote them in.

We do not, in this country, have the type of political environment that allows
for wild swings between polar opposites. This is also the 'beauty' of proportional representation.

People have money in their pockets and are basically happy. A major issue to you, like the airport or a flyover or manufacturing jobs does not affect most of the voters in this country. As long as they have 50s in their wallet all the time, they couldn't give a shit.

We are a centrist democracy. A couple of small issues isn't going to change the fundamental political structure of this country globally, or locally in Cork, Kerry, Mayo or wherever. We predominantly vote for who our parents voted for, who our allegiences lie with, or we don't vote at all.

[Actin The Sham]

A ha ha ha ha.

I love hearing this. I really do.

Cork have been screwed by every Fianna Fáil government since CJH first became Taoiseach.

This will make fuck all difference, bar maybe one seat maximum.

Fianna Fáil have good election strategists. Each sitting TD in this city has an almost clearly defined geographical boundary with the vote base of the next. They will be voted in by the people who always vote them in.

We do not, in this country, have the type of political environment that allows
for wild swings between polar opposites. This is also the 'beauty' of proportional representation.

People have money in their pockets and are basically happy. A major issue to you, like the airport or a flyover or manufacturing jobs does not affect most of the voters in this country. As long as they have 50s in their wallet all the time, they couldn't give a shit.

We are a centrist democracy. A couple of small issues isn't going to change the fundamental political structure of this country globally, or locally in Cork, Kerry, Mayo or wherever. We predominantly vote for who our parents voted for, who our allegiences lie with, or we don't vote at all.


I'd say they'll lose two seats in the city constituencies at the next election. Labour and Fine Gael would also saddle the Airport with this debt though: Labour is predominantly a Dublin party and it's policies reflect that, any government they will be involved with would never upset Dublin based voters.

[EDDIEB]

A ha ha ha ha.

I love hearing this. I really do.

Cork have been screwed by every Fianna Fáil government since CJH first became Taoiseach.

This will make fuck all difference, bar maybe one seat maximum.

Fianna Fáil have good election strategists. Each sitting TD in this city has an almost clearly defined geographical boundary with the vote base of the next. They will be voted in by the people who always vote them in.

We do not, in this country, have the type of political environment that allows
for wild swings between polar opposites. This is also the 'beauty' of proportional representation.

People have money in their pockets and are basically happy. A major issue to you, like the airport or a flyover or manufacturing jobs does not affect most of the voters in this country. As long as they have 50s in their wallet all the time, they couldn't give a shit.

We are a centrist democracy. A couple of small issues isn't going to change the fundamental political structure of this country globally, or locally in Cork, Kerry, Mayo or wherever. We predominantly vote for who our parents voted for, who our allegiences lie with, or we don't vote at all.

All politics is local.

1 seat loss to F.F. or the P.D.'s in Cork could potentially decide the make up of the next government.

[Actin The Sham]

All politics is local.

1 seat loss to F.F. or the P.D.'s in Cork could potentially decide the make up of the next government.

PDs have no seat in Cork.

We should vote for local issue candidates, maybe independents, but not canon fodder for the back benches. (Noel O' Flynn, Kathleen Lynch, Simon Coveney, Billy Kelleher, Bernard Allen, John Dennehy, Dan Boyle etc.)

They all talk the talk, but they can't walk the walk. As for "Minister" Martin he might as well be the TD for Fingal, if his performance on radio this morning is anything to go by.

They're all the same.

[EDDIEB]

PDs have no seat in Cork.

We should vote for local issue candidates, maybe independents, but not canon fodder for the back benches. (Noel O' Flynn, Kathleen Lynch, Simon Coveney, Billy Kelleher, Bernard Allen, John Dennehy, Dan Boyle etc.)

They all talk the talk, but they can't walk the walk. As for "Minister" Martin he might as well be the TD for Fingal, if his performance on radio this morning is anything to go by.

They're all the same.

I know but as in the F.F. / P.D. current government.

Martin is poor allright.

[ataronchronon]

All politics is local.

1 seat loss to F.F. or the P.D.'s in Cork could potentially decide the make up of the next government.

Politics in this country is not simply a local issue. If it was, then we wouldn't keep returning the backbenchers that Actin the Sham mentioned.

And just because a politician's public record isn't great on Cork issues doesn't mean he's not working for the community. You underestimate the amount of favours that have been done.

Let us take abitrary politican Mr X TD. Lets say he's been in office for 20 years.

If Mr. X TD has probably done hundreds of favours in that time. Favours include:

- bumping on hospital waiting lists.
- bumping on local authority housing lists.
- help in a business contract.
- awarding of government based contracts to local business friends.

These people are beholding to Mr. X TD, and their families tend to vote with them indefinitely, as a thank you for what they did PERSONALLY for them. Wouldn't you vote for a politician who got, for example, your uncle pushed up the list for a bypass operation? Of course. Would you worry about what he's done for Cork and weight that up against it? Hardly.

Mr. X TD can probably count on 50% of last election's 1st preferences on these matters and their general support base alone.

This is why you don't see support for a politician collapse entirely. Next, these people (who might be party members) assist in fundraisers, the business people provide funds, the small members of the party work tirelessly to tell people how great their 'friend' Mr. X TD is. This will bring them in another 25% of last years preferences.

Don't forget that most people haven't a clue about what issues are around them everywhere. Reading 1/4 of the echo does not an informed voter make. Word of mouth is powerful, as is name recognition.

So with each sitting TD probably sitting on 75% of last election's 1st preference count, it is left to the election strategists.

They look at each area in the constituency and gauge the mood of the swayable voters. Which area can we win over 1st preferences for Mr X, probably his local areas. So we concentrate on these areas. In which areas can we win over 1st preferences for Mr Y - again probably his local areas, so we concentrate on 1st preferences for Mr Y there.

Then they push for no 2 votes in their local areas, based on being a local candidate. The last thing a non-party-aligned voter in e.g. Farranree wants is a TD from Glanmire. So even if they don't give Mr X or Y as first preference, if one of them is local, they will vote for them as 2nd or 3rd preference. Big parties have such a strong vote base across the city that they can divide candidates by areas.

The electioneering I have vaguely described above is how FF return 3 candidates in 5 seats with 39% of the 1st preference. You understimate how well big parties can work the system.

I'll be surprised if the wholesale changes you're predicting happen, and where the government loses 1 seat, they will gain another. Sadly for you, your wish to see a new government does not mean that the public will necessarily follow your wishes, whatever local issues are annoying you.

[Actin The Sham]

Politics in this country is not simply a local issue. If it was, then we wouldn't keep returning the backbenchers that Actin the Sham mentioned.

And just because a politician's public record isn't great on Cork issues doesn't mean he's not working for the community. You underestimate the amount of favours that have been done.

Let us take abitrary politican Mr X TD. Lets say he's been in office for 20 years.

If Mr. X TD has probably done hundreds of favours in that time. Favours include:

- bumping on hospital waiting lists.
- bumping on local authority housing lists.
- help in a business contract.
- awarding of government based contracts to local business friends.

These people are beholding to Mr. X TD, and their families tend to vote with them indefinitely, as a thank you for what they did PERSONALLY for them. Wouldn't you vote for a politician who got, for example, your uncle pushed up the list for a bypass operation? Of course. Would you worry about what he's done for Cork and weight that up against it? Hardly.

Mr. X TD can probably count on 50% of last election's 1st preferences on these matters and their general support base alone.

This is why you don't see support for a politician collapse entirely. Next, these people (who might be party members) assist in fundraisers, the business people provide funds, the small members of the party work tirelessly to tell people how great their 'friend' Mr. X TD is. This will bring them in another 25% of last years preferences.

Don't forget that most people haven't a clue about what issues are around them everywhere. Reading 1/4 of the echo does not an informed voter make. Word of mouth is powerful, as is name recognition.

So with each sitting TD probably sitting on 75% of last election's 1st preference count, it is left to the election strategists.

They look at each area in the constituency and gauge the mood of the swayable voters. Which area can we win over 1st preferences for Mr X, probably his local areas. So we concentrate on these areas. In which areas can we win over 1st preferences for Mr Y - again probably his local areas, so we concentrate on 1st preferences for Mr Y there.

Then they push for no 2 votes in their local areas, based on being a local candidate. The last thing a non-party-aligned voter in e.g. Farranree wants is a TD from Glanmire. So even if they don't give Mr X or Y as first preference, if one of them is local, they will vote for them as 2nd or 3rd preference. Big parties have such a strong vote base across the city that they can divide candidates by areas.

The electioneering I have vaguely described above is how FF return 3 candidates in 5 seats with 39% of the 1st preference. You understimate how well big parties can work the system.

I'll be surprised if the wholesale changes you're predicting happen, and where the government loses 1 seat, they will gain another. Sadly for you, your wish to see a new government does not mean that the public will necessarily follow your wishes, whatever local issues are annoying you.



That synopsis, while lengthy, would be more or less accurate if the constituency boundaries were not changed after the last election resulting in Cork North Central being reduced from 5 to 4 for example.

Therefore all bets are off, and there is no way FF will return 3 TDs in a 4 seater constituency.

[EDDIEB]

Politics in this country is not simply a local issue. If it was, then we wouldn't keep returning the backbenchers that Actin the Sham mentioned.

And just because a politician's public record isn't great on Cork issues doesn't mean he's not working for the community. You underestimate the amount of favours that have been done.

Let us take abitrary politican Mr X TD. Lets say he's been in office for 20 years.

If Mr. X TD has probably done hundreds of favours in that time. Favours include:

- bumping on hospital waiting lists. Local Issue
- bumping on local authority housing lists.Local Issue
- help in a business contract.Local Issue
- awarding of government based contracts to local business friends.Local Issue
These people are beholding to Mr. X TD, and their families tend to vote with them indefinitely, as a thank you for what they did PERSONALLY for them. Wouldn't you vote for a politician who got, for example, your uncle pushed up the list for a bypass operation? Of course. Would you worry about what he's done for Cork and weight that up against it? Hardly.Local Issue

Mr. X TD can probably count on 50% of last election's 1st preferences on these matters and their general support base alone.

This is why you don't see support for a politician collapse entirely. Next, these people (who might be party members) assist in fundraisers, the business people provide funds, the small members of the party work tirelessly to tell people how great their 'friend' Mr. X TD is. This will bring them in another 25% of last years preferences.

Don't forget that most people haven't a clue about what issues are around them everywhere. Reading 1/4 of the echo does not an informed voter make. Word of mouth is powerful, as is name recognition.

So with each sitting TD probably sitting on 75% of last election's 1st preference count, it is left to the election strategists.

They look at each area in the constituency and gauge the mood of the swayable voters. Which area can we win over 1st preferences for Mr X, probably his local areas. So we concentrate on these areas. In which areas can we win over 1st preferences for Mr Y - again probably his local areas, so we concentrate on 1st preferences for Mr Y there.

Then they push for no 2 votes in their local areas, based on being a local candidate. The last thing a non-party-aligned voter in e.g. Farranree wants is a TD from Glanmire. So even if they don't give Mr X or Y as first preference, if one of them is local, they will vote for them as 2nd or 3rd preference. Big parties have such a strong vote base across the city that they can divide candidates by areas.

The electioneering I have vaguely described above is how FF return 3 candidates in 5 seats with 39% of the 1st preference. You understimate how well big parties can work the system.

I'll be surprised if the wholesale changes you're predicting happen, and where the government loses 1 seat, they will gain another. Sadly for you, your wish to see a new government does not mean that the public will necessarily follow your wishes, whatever local issues are annoying you.


I do not wish to see a new government - just an effective responsive one for this region.

[ataronchronon]

That synopsis, while lengthy, would be more or less accurate if the constituency boundaries were not changed after the last election resulting in Cork North Central being reduced from 5 to 4 for example.

Therefore all bets are off, and there is no way FF will return 3 TDs in a 4 seater constituency.

Of course not. They're not aiming for that. They'll want the 2 sitting candidates returned. But the overall election plan will accomodate that.

They'll return 2 in CNC but that doesn't necessarily add up to a 'lost' seat. Dan Wallace isn't running again. BK and NOF will be returned.


As for Cork South Central, Batt O'Keefe has left the constituency due to his Ballincollig base leaving.

1/2 of Bishopstown returning to Cork South Central can only benefit John Dennehy, this was part of his old SW ward voter base. He'll pick up 1st preferences there.

Micheal Martin will be returned.

The only variable here as far as I can see is the new guy running, from Passage west.

Michael McGrath is seen as a very dynamic young prospect within the party, and I'm sure he'll give a good account of himself. He has a strong local base (he got elected to the Passage town council at 22!) Don't count him out. He has very strong business backing too.

His Carrigaline FF base will help him.

So if anything, the boundary changes will HELP in Cork South Central.

True it'll be probably 5/9 seats in cork city instead of 6/10. But that isn't a lost seat unless it's lost elsewhere.

[Actin The Sham]

Of course not. They're not aiming for that. They'll want the 2 sitting candidates returned. But the overall election plan will accomodate that.

They'll return 2 in CNC but that doesn't necessarily add up to a 'lost' seat. Dan Wallace isn't running again. BK and NOF will be returned.


So they are giving up any chance of retaining their three seats then.

[VVV05]

I have no problem admitting that I voted FF in the last election. That's the last time they'll get my vote though. If this does not encourage people to vote FF out, then we're f**ked basically. They have done a complete u turn on their promises here. 100m does not sound like much, but what it actually means is that landing charges increase and the likes of Ryanair (ie the real airlines bringing people through Cork Airport) will at best not include any new destinations out of cork, or at worst pull out altogether.
FF are lying pr*cks.When are we getting the flyovers for sarsfield and bandon roundabouts? not for another 2-3 years and by then of the price will have doubled, which ultimately comes out of the taxpayers pockets.
I cant wait for these imbeciles to come knocking on my door looking for my vote.

[Actin The Sham]

Flyovers for Sarsfield and Bandon Road Roundabouts

Redevelopment of the Railway Station to face the quays

Reopening of the Cork Midleton Railway

Removal of €100 Million Debt from Cork Airport

Replacement of Cork Swansea Ferry Link

These should be the minimum that any government TD, (or aspiring government, is opposition TD) should be tackled with on the doorsteps.



All transport related, all not happening, all talked about, all on the long finger.

[EDDIEB]

Flyovers for Sarsfield and Bandon Road Roundabouts

Redevelopment of the Railway Station to face the quays

Reopening of the Cork Midleton Railway

Removal of €100 Million Debt from Cork Airport

Replacement of Cork Swansea Ferry Link

These should be the minimum that any government TD, (or aspiring government, is opposition TD) should be tackled with on the doorsteps.



All transport related, all not happening, all talked about, all on the long finger.

They should be questioned on ALL of the above.

[hans aus dtschl]

Flyovers for Sarsfield and Bandon Road Roundabouts

Redevelopment of the Railway Station to face the quays

Reopening of the Cork Midleton Railway

Removal of €100 Million Debt from Cork Airport

Replacement of Cork Swansea Ferry Link

These should be the minimum that any government TD, (or aspiring government, is opposition TD) should be tackled with on the doorsteps.



All transport related, all not happening, all talked about, all on the long finger.

yep.

and as you said, thats just transport.

[ataronchronon]

So they are giving up any chance of retaining their three seats then.

How can they 'retain' 3 seats if one of the seats is gone? It makes no sense to risk a seat in Cork North Central.

They will aim for 2 in CNC, 3 in CSC.

The constituencies to watch are Meath East and Meath West. This was formerly one constituency, Meath. John Bruton is gone now, and FF will look to convert this 3/5 into 2/3 and 2/3.

Similarly, Dublin Mid-West goes from 3 - 4 seats, where FF have only one sitting TD. They will aim to return 2 candidates.

5/9 instead of 6/10 in Cork does therefore not amount to a strategy of accepting a 'lost seat'. The party won't give a shit where the numbers come from.

[Actin The Sham]

How can they 'retain' 3 seats if one of the seats is gone? It makes no sense to risk a seat in Cork North Central.


Now, think about this for a little while: they have three seats at the moment. If they manage to get three td's elected in the constituency next time then they will "retain" those three seats. There will be four seats up for grabs.

OK?

[Actin The Sham]

Noel O' Flynn has said he "expected more from the board of the Cork Airport Authority," following their "leaking of information to the media" yesterday.


So, the guy is now bitching about the fact that the media know that he has pissed all over the airport, and the region that he was elected to represent, yet he is the first one to ring radio stations or newspapers whenever he wants to say something.


I think Del Boy said it best:


What a plonker!!!!!

[Ciotóg]

John Minihane (PDs, Cork South Central) was going mental about this at lunch time. I reckon he'll either get the decision changed, or he'll get turfed out of the party.

[Actin The Sham]

John Minihane (PDs, Cork South Central) was going mental about this at lunch time. I reckon he'll either get the decision changed, or he'll get turfed out of the party.

Was it all rhetoric, or did he sound as if he is actually going to do something? He has the luxury of not being a sitting TD.

No one has said that if they get elected that the debt will be wiped out, not even Simon Coveney or Dan Boyle. I'd love to know what they all think on this issue. Will the airport debt be wiped out if they get in, yes or no?

And as for the sneaky bastards that are in at the moment they should hang their heads in shame: Micheal Martin used be Lord Mayor, imagine Terence McSwiney or Thomas MacCurtain doing something like this to Cork.

He should resign from government, like Sile De Valera did a few years ago over Shannon airport.

[Ciotóg]

Was it all rhetoric, or did he sound as if he is actually going to do something? He has the luxury of not being a sitting TD.

No one has said that if they get elected that the debt will be wiped out, not even Simon Coveney or Dan Boyle. I'd love to know what they all think on this issue. Will the airport debt be wiped out if they get in, yes or no?

And as for the sneaky bastards that are in at the moment they should hang their heads in shame: Micheal Martin used be Lord Mayor, imagine Terence McSwiney or Thomas MacCurtain doing something like this to Cork.

He should resign from government, like Sile De Valera did a few years ago over Shannon airport.
It was rhetoric, I suppose, but pretty strong stuff. It sounded like he might do something alright, even if it meant getting kicked out of the party and setting up the Independent-PDs.

The only one who has said the airport debt would be wiped out was Séamus Brennan, three years ago. They played it back on the news. Hilarious stuff altogether. What he was saying was the complete opposite of what was announced today!

[Echoboy]

Here is the salt in the wound lads.... I hope you are sitting down

DAA now want to sell part of the Cork airport to the tune of €30,000,000.00 AND land us with the €100,000,000.00 !!

Cullen, you are a rat bag !! :vamp::twisted::vamp :

Strip the airport of its assets BEFORE you shaft us, bet you're glad you wont be knocking on my door ya pr!ck

If any of the FF kunts call to my door this election, i'll wrestle the fookers to the ground and give 'em a good batin'

[markinmanc]

FF are buying the West link toll bridge to buy off Dub voters - ergo Cork will mean little or nothing to them.

[markinmanc]

FF obviously put a lot of plannig into this judging by the way all the Cork FF TDs (except for John Dennehy) are giving the same speil andthe airport mybe getting a landbank - or part of it... or ....

Will FF lose seats? No - they appeal to the greed of enough people, those who won't or don't care about the city - to ensure most of those going for election will return in the next Dail.

They must be pissing themselves laughing, wondering what gimp trick they can pull next
And laughing even more at the impotent rage of Cork people, knowing that FF will suffer little or no consequences from their vile action.

The fact this thread is already dropping off the first page in favour of threads about sex and telly says it all really.

[EDDIEB]

From Cork Chamber of Commerce
"there were recent newspaper advertisements by Dublin Airport Authority (DAA) offering 10 acres of land, valued at up to €30 million, at Cork airport for sale without the support of Cork Airport Authority. What logic does this land sale serve apart from attempting to asset strip Cork Airport prior to a hand over?"

Disgrace.

[markinmanc]

From Cork Chamber of Commerce
"there were recent newspaper advertisements by Dublin Airport Authority (DAA) offering 10 acres of land, valued at up to €30 million, at Cork airport for sale without the support of Cork Airport Authority. What logic does this land sale serve apart from attempting to asset strip Cork Airport prior to a hand over?"

Disgrace.


I'm guessing that Dublin is being promoted as the airport for the east coast, Shannon or Knock for the west - Cork will increasingly fall down the pecking order. It will have to increase fees to survive, lose more airlines ... I wonder what will be left in a few years. By then the election will have come and gone, people will have forgotten abut what FF did.

[deeptek]

think you could be right. There are a few factors going against Cork though.
Its location on the South coast is not good to serve the West Coast as a whole and the lack of CATIII do not help. It has issues with low visibility landings as far as I know. A lot of flights have been diverted from there during recent poor weather..

[hans aus dtschl]

It doesnt have CATIII because of its shit location.


any why is it where it is?





but remember-do vote- because you MIGHT find the one in a million of the cunts thats not crooked!

[mrbobdobalina]

FF are buying the West link toll bridge to buy off Dub voters - ergo Cork will mean little or nothing to them.

€600m for the toll bridge
€1000m for the upgraded m50
€1000m for the metro
€1000m for Dublin airport
€700m Luas + 5 news lines costing €xbn
€700m port tunnel

That's off the top of my head.

Cork?
Kinsale road flyover and new airport saddled with crippling debt.

Screwed. Royally.

[Some user]

In all my life I was never so angry watching the news last night. Im always careful not to fall into assummng Fianna Fail treat Cork like shit but seeing them send 600 million on a bridge in Dublin that was originally sold with the consent of ex Dublin City ManagerGeorge 'tribunals' Redmond boils my blood.

When the breakup was finalised it was agreed that Cork would be debt free if Dublin got the Great Southern hotel chain. Dublin sold the chain for 265 million but Cork still gets a 100 million euro debt. Theres a good piece in the Examiner from an Aviation expert who says that a debt of 100 million for a start up is crippling.

Cork people will forget this in a few days and still vote FF back in when they remember how much their houses are worth. They'll allow Billy Kelliher and a few more to voice muted opposition to keep their seats but they'll be whipped if they get too stroppy. If the opposition are any good they'll make some ground on this politically.

Is there any end to the shit Martin Cullen can do to Cork?
I was thinking of giving Michael Martin a vote but I can't now.

[hans aus dtschl]

i cant vote FF either, now.

im normally not party-biased, and will vote candidates based on local shi'ite, regardless of their parties, but now i wont vote FF regardless of how good the candidates are.

I just cant.

They have absolutely no notion, or care about cork, and it's been this way for the last few years.

[Natty Dread]

Oh boy that guy Cullen really gets up my nose. I think the supposed leak by the Cork Airport Authority on the day that Cullen announces he’s spending 600 million of our cash on that stupid toll bridge in Dublin was clever and well timed to highlight the wastefulness of all this. For one sixth of the cash he could have given Cork a fair start.

The spin that “Dublin shouldn’t have to pay for Cork” doesn’t stand up at all. What were we supposed to do? Keep a shitty terminal building while Dublin spent a billion on upgrades?! Fuck off.

The airport is more than something for planes to fly in and out of – its something for Cork people to be proud of and you know the more I listen to the opposition about FF/PD wasting tax payers money the more I’m starting to believe it. Where are Cork’s TDs now? How much influence do they really have?

There’s also this crap in West Cork where Fianna Fáil imposed a candidate on the local cumann rather than allow a vote as is normal in every other constituency. Who the fuck do Fianna Fáil think they’re dealing with?! This is Cork not some rural out post in Leitrim with a few hundred people, a post office and a goat.

This is the kind of thing that makes you think about separating Cork from the rest of the country. How can we voice our opinions to the politicians?

[Dwyer On Fire]

i cant vote FF either, now.

im normally not party-biased, and will vote candidates based on local shi'ite, regardless of their parties, but now i wont vote FF regardless of how good the candidates are.

I just cant.

They have absolutely no notion, or care about cork, and it's been this way for the last few years.

I don’t claim to know all the facts and the exact pieces of all the agreements but on the surface this seems like a gross insult to Cork. Simon Coveney explained it well this morning and while my family traditionally have had a loyalty to FF, judging by the reactions of my parents and two brothers last night watching the news they can certainly kiss five votes goodbye now.

As some one else said above the airport is a matter of pride as well as a commercial function and this latest bullshit from Fianna Fail is a gross insult. Unless we do something they’re going to keep treating Cork people like second class citizens.

[Actin The Sham]

In all my life I was never so angry watching the news last night. Im always careful not to fall into assummng Fianna Fail treat Cork like shit but seeing them send 600 million on a bridge in Dublin that was originally sold with the consent of ex Dublin City ManagerGeorge 'tribunals' Redmond boils my blood.

When the breakup was finalised it was agreed that Cork would be debt free if Dublin got the Great Southern hotel chain. Dublin sold the chain for 265 million but Cork still gets a 100 million euro debt. Theres a good piece in the Examiner from an Aviation expert who says that a debt of 100 million for a start up is crippling.

Cork people will forget this in a few days and still vote FF back in when they remember how much their houses are worth. They'll allow Billy Kelliher and a few more to voice muted opposition to keep their seats but they'll be whipped if they get too stroppy. If the opposition are any good they'll make some ground on this politically.

Is there any end to the shit Martin Cullen can do to Cork?
I was thinking of giving Michael Martin a vote but I can't now.



A lot of this spin about "Dublin" v Cork is because of the fact that they changed the name of Aer Rianta to Dublin Airport Authority. This allowed spin meisters like Martin (I spend €100,000 a year on PR Consultants) Cullen to introduce the concept of "why should Dublin passengers pay for improvements in Cork airport?"

Apart from the fact that Aer Rianta/Dublin Airport Authority (let's use the unionist habit of referring to them as that, like "Sinn Fein/IRA" because they are one and the same) got the Great Southern Hotel Group they also got Aer Rianta International to keep as an incentive to ensure that Cork started off debt free. If Cork is now not going to start off debt free, then maybe a proportion of Aer Rianta/Dublin Airport Authoritys ownership of Aer Rianta International should be transferred to Cork Airport. After all, Aer Rianta/Dublin Airport Authority cannot have it both ways.

And another thing that this breathtakingly incompetent minister (remember the e-voting machines debacle?) should bear in mind when he refers to "pasengers of Aer Rianta/Dublin Airport paying for improvements in Cork" is this:

Cork businesses are now having to pay to improve the lot of Dublin commuters. How? It's quite simple really: Hauliers who are using Dublin Port are now legally obliged to use the port tunnel in Dublin. This is fine for Hauliers from Belfast, Galway, Derry, Sligo, and lots of other places. But for Cork based hauliers they are now being forced, when they come out of the port in Dublin to head north on to the M50, and then turn south, and pay to go through a set of toll booths.

Yet again, Minister Cullen presides over a system that shafts Cork business and trade in order to boost the coffers of the gluttonous monster that he has presided over creating in Dublin.


The man is an example of what not to vote for. Enda Kenny is as bad, and Pat Rabbitte looks like a complete moron.

The only hope for Cork now is to rekindle the rebel spirit we are supposedly known for and have a day of action. The people of Monaghan have shown how to protest over their hospital closing, we need to follow suit.

[Tube a Pringles]

Apart from the hotels, the DAA also owns 20% of Birmingham airport and all of Dusseldorf airport I think.

[Ciotóg]

What's the deal with that "Cork can stay with the DAA for now and be debt-free when they break away in 20 years, or they can choose to break away now (A Good Thing, says everyone) and take some of the debt to compensate, yadda yadda" line that Cullen is coming out with.

Why does breaking away from the DAA now as opposed to hanging on a while mean that they have to take on the debt?

[Dwyer On Fire]

Apart from the fact that Aer Rianta/Dublin Airport Authority (let's use the unionist habit of referring to them as that, like "Sinn Fein/IRA" because they are one and the same) got the Great Southern Hotel Group they also got Aer Rianta International to keep as an incentive to ensure that Cork started off debt free. If Cork is now not going to start off debt free, then maybe a proportion of Aer Rianta/Dublin Airport Authoritys ownership of Aer Rianta International should be transferred to Cork Airport. After all, Aer Rianta/Dublin Airport Authority cannot have it both ways.

And another thing that this breathtakingly incompetent minister (remember the e-voting machines debacle?) should bear in mind when he refers to "pasengers of Aer Rianta/Dublin Airport paying for improvements in Cork" is this:

Cork businesses are now having to pay to improve the lot of Dublin commuters. How? It's quite simple really: Hauliers who are using Dublin Port are now legally obliged to use the port tunnel in Dublin. This is fine for Hauliers from Belfast, Galway, Derry, Sligo, and lots of other places. But for Cork based hauliers they are now being forced, when they come out of the port in Dublin to head north on to the M50, and then turn south, and pay to go through a set of toll booths.

Yet again, Minister Cullen presides over a system that shafts Cork business and trade in order to boost the coffers of the gluttonous monster that he has presided over creating in Dublin.

The man is an example of what not to vote for. Enda Kenny is as bad, and Pat Rabbitte looks like a complete moron.

The only hope for Cork now is to rekindle the rebel spirit we are supposedly known for and have a day of action. The people of Monaghan have shown how to protest over their hospital closing, we need to follow suit.

Your point about Aer Rianta/Dublin Airport is a very important one. I think they retained the whole retailing side of things as well didn't they?

Should someone at least start an online petition? I think this is a far bigger issue than just the airport debt.

[Ciotóg]

He's on fire, boy. On fire. There'll be a rebel uprising within a week if this carries on.

[Actin The Sham]

We should at least start e-mailing government TDs to let them know that we expect them to stand up for us, and for God's sake stop "toeing the party line" at the expense of their constituents.

billykelleher@eircom .net

Mícheál Martin, Lios Laoi, 16 Silver Manor, Ballinlough, Cork

michealmartintd@eirc om.net

Batt O'Keeffe
8 Westcliffe, Ballincollig, Co Cork
Tel: 021-4871393
Fax: 021-4871393


These are some of the contact details. I'll try and get more of them as soon as possible.

On next Friday night (2nd Of March) at Silversprings Moran Hotel, Fianna Fail are having a fundraising dinner. Bertie Ahern will be attending. How about we make our feelings known on the ground?

[deeptek]

Cork businesses are now having to pay to improve the lot of Dublin commuters. How? It's quite simple really: Hauliers who are using Dublin Port are now legally obliged to use the port tunnel in Dublin. This is fine for Hauliers from Belfast, Galway, Derry, Sligo, and lots of other places. But for Cork based hauliers they are now being forced, when they come out of the port in Dublin to head north on to the M50, and then turn south, and pay to go through a set of toll booths.



This is an issue for anyone travelling South not just Cork people. Anyone going to Clare/Limerick/Tipp have the same issue so Cork people are not the only ones affected by this.
At the end of the day it comes down to votes and the volume of votes in the greater Dublin area far outwieghs the Cork vote. Simple as.

[##linda##]

He's on fire, boy. On fire. There'll be a rebel uprising within a week if this carries on.

im allergic, im in an office with a Tipp man and a dub of all people, and they are delighted, there saying,

''dead right that ye should pay, it might bring ye down a peg or too ye are all far to cocky''.

i'll be paying far more attention to vote this year, thats for dam sure.

anyone else getting abuse by people from other counties.

[Actin The Sham]

This is an issue for anyone travelling South not just Cork people. Anyone going to Clare/Limerick/Tipp have the same issue so Cork people are not the only ones affected by this.
At the end of the day it comes down to votes and the volume of votes in the greater Dublin area far outwieghs the Cork vote. Simple as.


Clare/Limerick/Tipp are of no concern to me. As has been clearly demonstrated these past few days it's now every region for itself.

Thanks for your insightful explanation of the workings of democracy.

[##linda##]

We should at least start e-mailing government TDs to let them know that we expect them to stand up for us, and for God's sake stop "toeing the party line" at the expense of their constituents.

billykelleher@eircom .net

Mícheál Martin, Lios Laoi, 16 Silver Manor, Ballinlough, Cork

michealmartintd@eirc om.net

Batt O'Keeffe
8 Westcliffe, Ballincollig, Co Cork
Tel: 021-4871393
Fax: 021-4871393


These are some of the contact details. I'll try and get more of them as soon as possible.

On next Friday night (2nd Of March) at Silversprings Moran Hotel, Fianna Fail are having a fundraising dinner. Bertie Ahern will be attending. How about we make our feelings known on the ground?



ohhhhhhhhh i like the sound of that :D

[Tube a Pringles]

It would be great if the new CAA could re-open the old terminal and let the DAA run their new one.....

[deeptek]

Clare/Limerick/Tipp are of no concern to me. As has been clearly demonstrated these past few days it's now every region for itself.

Thanks for your insightful explanation of the workings of democracy.

well maybe that kind of thinking is whats getting Cork nowhere...fast
idiot.

[Actin The Sham]

well maybe that kind of thinking is whats getting Cork nowhere...fast
idiot.

Thank you for your insightful psychological assessment.

[Actin The Sham]

Right, moving on, and back to topic, here is what Senator John Minihan of the PDs had to say: (From The Examiner)

A GOVERNMENT Senator launched a scathing attack on the Government yesterday over the controversial Cork Airport debt issue.


Former PD parliamentary party secretary, John Minihan, also admitted that Government attempts to saddle the airport with a €100 million debt would cost it seats in the general election.

Mr Minihan said he was furious and accused Transport Minister Martin Cullen of reneging on a Government pledge to give the airport debt-free status after the break-up of Aer Rianta.





“It was promised, it should be honoured,” he said.

He has spoken with Tánaiste Michael McDowell and Health Minister Mary Harney seeking party support for his stance.

“In 2004 former Minister of Transport Seamus Brennan stated he would be leaving the debt for construction of the new terminal where it belongs, with Dublin,” he said.

“That promise has now been reneged on by Minister Cullen and the Government. I am extremely angry at this news and the ‘flip-flopping’ of the Minister on this issue.”

In February 2005, Mr Minihan questioned Mr Cullen on the future of Cork’s debt-free status.

The Minister said that the distribution of assets between the three former Aer Rianta airports — Dublin, Cork and Shannon — would be in “compliance with the capital maintenance rules and other provisions of the Companies Acts”.

Mr Minihan called on the Minister yesterday to clarify just which provisions of the acts provide for the Dublin Airport Authority (DAA) to get all the assets of the former Aer Rianta while Cork gets the debt.

“The figure of €100 million seems to be completely arbitrary, a figure plucked from thin air,” he said

“The minister needs to clarify what other assets the DAA propose to strip from Cork. I cannot see how the board of an independent Cork Airport Authority (CAA) can possibly stand over a business plan which has to deal with a €100 million debt.”

He congratulated the CAA for their stance on Monday when they directed chairman Joe Gantly to write to the Taoiseach stating their refusal to take on the debt.

He also called for clarification on reports that consultants who advised the Government on the break up of Aer Rianta were paid €300 million.

“If true this seems like a case of the consultant culture gone made. The Minister needs to explain this.”


****

Spoken like a true opposition TD. Only problem is he is a PD Senator, and they are in government.

In other news, here is another gem from Minister Cullen commenting about the buy out of the toll bridge on the M50:

"By buying the West Link Toll Bridge, the state and the travelling public -rather than NTR - will be the direct beneficiary of the tolls."


Thanks for that Martin, so you will give them SIX HUNDRED MILLION EURO but they will not be the direct beneficiaries?


I honestly think the guy is mentally unstable, or else listening to too many consultants: On planet Cullen, giving someone €600 million to buy something that a convicted corrupt planner facilitated them in buying for €20 million, and which they have made over €300 million already, makes economic sense, and they will not be beneficiaries from the deal.

Yeah.

Right.

Like the guys in Holland that he gave FIFTY MILLION EURO to for e-voting machines that don't work.


Or the consultants that he gave THREE HUNDRED MILLION EURO to, to tell him how to break up Aer Rianta.

[mrbobdobalina]

It would be great if the new CAA could re-open the old terminal and let the DAA run their new one.....

That would be funny!:D

Funny thing about Cork and the rebels and all that - how many people think Melbourne or Barcelona etc would stand for the treatment Cork gets as Irelands second city? Seems to me that the idea is to move everyone up to Dublin and turn the rest of the country into a golf course, complete with interpretative centres...

[EDDIEB]

That would be funny!:D

Funny thing about Cork and the rebels and all that - how many people think Melbourne or Barcelona etc would stand for the treatment Cork gets as Irelands second city? Seems to me that the idea is to move everyone up to Dublin and turn the rest of the country into a golf course, complete with interpretative centres...

Its true of course.

Their "Everybody move to the East Coast" policy can be heard every morning and afternoon on AA roadwatch.

[Actin The Sham]

That would be funny!:D

Funny thing about Cork and the rebels and all that - how many people think Melbourne or Barcelona etc would stand for the treatment Cork gets as Irelands second city? Seems to me that the idea is to move everyone up to Dublin and turn the rest of the country into a golf course, complete with interpretative centres...


The Northern League in Italy could be used as a template, although some of their anti-immigrant policies would obviously have to be jettisoned. Cork could see the start of a "Southern League," type party, with Corks interests and only Corks interests at heart.

We've been shafted long enough.


This is from Answers.com:

The Northern League (Italian: Lega Nord) is an Italian political party founded in 1991 as a federation of several regional parties in Northern Italy, most of which had arisen, and all of which had expanded their share of the electorate, in the 1980s.

Its political program advocates greater regional autonomy, especially for the Northern Italian region, which they call Padania; at times it has advocated secession. Prior to the party's adoption of the term, Padania was a relatively obscure geographers' designation for the Po River basin.

The League is led by Umberto Bossi.


History

Precursors and foundation
One of its principal precursors (and, later, sections), the Lombard League (Lega Lombarda), attained national significance in 1987 when its leader, Bossi, was elected to the Senate. Since then on he has commonly been referred to as the Senatur, the word for "senator" in a number of northern minority local languages—a nickname maintained even when he was no longer a senator.

In 1983, the Liga Veneta, based in Veneto, elected one MP, Achille Tramarin, and a Senator, Graziano Girardi.

The party was formed in 1991 as a merger of the various regional movements (often named "league"), including the Lombard League and the Liga Veneta. These regional parties continue to exist as "national sections" of the federal party, which presents itself in regional and local contests as Lega Lombarda-Lega Nord, Liga Veneta-Lega Nord and so on. Support for the party skyrocketed in the early 1990s because of the huge political corruption scandal known as Tangentopoli and the Mani pulite investigations.


Playing a role in the national stage
In 1994 the Northern League, along with the post-fascist National Alliance, joined Forza Italia to form a coalition under Silvio Berlusconi. This government (in which the League controlled 5 ministries, Interior with Roberto Maroni, Budget with Giancarlo Pagliarini, Industry with Vito Gnutti, European Affairs with Domenico Comino and Institutional Reforms with Francesco Speroni) was short-lived and the League was instrumental in its demise which occurred before the end of the year.

Having forced Berlusconi to resign, the Northern League attacked him vehemently and Umberto Bossi stated in a television interview that Berlusconi's fortune came from mafia sources. At the beginning of 1995, the League gave a vote of confidence to the new formed cabinet of Lamberto Dini, alongside with the Italian People's Party and the Democratic Party of the Left. Between 1995 and 1998 the party entered in alliance with these and other parties of the centre-left in many local contexts, from Padua to Udine.

***

A league of people whose only interest is promoting Cork could work out very well for us. Imagine a party of 15 TDs in Dail Eireann: they could become power brokers and could influence the make up of the government.

[dishwap]

The spin that “Dublin shouldn’t have to pay for Cork” doesn’t stand up at all. What were we supposed to do? Keep a shitty terminal building while Dublin spent a billion on upgrades?! Fuck off.The actual situation is Cork and Shannon have new terminals while Dublin runs into a capacity problem with no real action taken. Your ‘point’ is?I don’t claim to know all the facts and the exact pieces of all the agreements but on the surface this seems like a gross insult to Cork.How is suggesting that Cork is capable of covering half its debts an insult? A lot of this spin about "Dublin" v Cork is because of the fact that they changed the name of Aer Rianta to Dublin Airport Authority. This allowed spin meisters like Martin (I spend €100,000 a year on PR Consultants) Cullen to introduce the concept of "why should Dublin passengers pay for improvements in Cork airport?"You are absolutely right, and many Cork people are embracing that spin with a vengeance. Hauliers who are using Dublin Port are now legally obliged to use the port tunnel in Dublin.Of course you neatly forget that Dublin people have accepted the environmental cost of all that traffic for years, nor do you seem to have any wonder in why Dublin’s solution involves a toll – like the Westlink bridge before it. Whereas I don’t remember anyone expecting a few coins to be dropped into a bucket before I pass through the Jack Lynch tunnel as its covered by that little round disc in my windscreen. Any chance that some light might start dawning soon? Apart from the fact that Aer Rianta/Dublin Airport Authority (let's use the unionist habit of referring to them as that, like "Sinn Fein/IRA" because they are one and the same) got the Great Southern Hotel Group they also got Aer Rianta International to keep as an incentive to ensure that Cork started off debt free. If Cork is now not going to start off debt free, then maybe a proportion of Aer Rianta/Dublin Airport Authoritys ownership of Aer Rianta International should be transferred to Cork Airport. After all, Aer Rianta/Dublin Airport Authority cannot have it both ways.The missing link in this picture is, of course, Shannon. What contribution would Cork plan on making to their upkeep in this scenario? And what contribution would they make to the historical losses at Great Southern Hotels, or to legacy pension entitlements?

More than anything, what the problem shows is, ironically, the culmination of years of anti Dublin fixation. Because Cork just banged on about Dublin (as now) there was no particular reason to give Cork any priority over Nenagh. Hence, in this ‘discussion’ there’s a perfect willingness to bang on about €1 billion being spent on Dublin Airport – which presumably passengers passing through Dublin will rightly ultimately pay via charges – as if this has some relevance to Cork passengers not contributing to the cost of the terminal they pass through.

Can I suggest the real area of enquiry is how every two bit town is given much the same position in the pecking order as Cork. Put simply, its no surprise that Dublin Airport will receive investment – the wonder is that things had to be let crash into a wall before action was taken. The real problem is the kind of thinking that lead to Knock being built. Yet, mouths will stay shut about that because it doesn’t conflict with the anti-Dublin mindset.

The problem stems from that mindset. Judging from this thread, that’s not changing fast enough.

[mrbobdobalina]

The Northern League in Italy could be used as a template, although some of their anti-immigrant policies would obviously have to be jettisoned. Cork could see the start of a "Southern League," type party, with Corks interests and only Corks interests at heart.


Fascinating idea. I wonder would it work? Cork people would have to be angry enough to step up and do something about the current regional imbalance.

[Actin The Sham]

Of course you neatly forget that Dublin people have accepted the environmental cost of all that traffic for years, nor do you seem to have any wonder in why Dublin’s solution involves a toll – like the Westlink bridge before it. Whereas I don’t remember anyone expecting a few coins to be dropped into a bucket before I pass through the Jack Lynch tunnel as its covered by that little round disc in my windscreen. Any chance that some light might start dawning soon?

The M50 toll road was built where it is as a direct result of a contract signed by P Flynn and George Redmond.

Both were subsequently indicted, and one was convicted of corruption. The Jack Lynch tunnel was planned back in 1978 as part of the Land Use and Transportation Study. The diligence and foresight of local Cork based planners are what have avoided the mess that local Dublin based planners who were subsequently found to be criminals have foisted on the people who use the M50. I see your point in comparing the planning and implementation of the M50 toll road by people who were subsequently convicted in a court of law, but to be totally blunt "stop whinging that Cork people should bail it out."

And as for Aer Rianta/Dublin Airport Authority, they are asset stripping Cork Airport in order to feed the monster they have created in Collinstown.

I have absolutely no interest in any of your other waffle, feel free however to post more misguided ramblings by way of "riposte."

[dishwap]

local Dublin based planners who were subsequently found to be criminals Well known Dublin planners like P Flynn. the monster they have created in Collinstown.I think you’ll find its just a commercial feasible airport. Shannon, on the other hand ... stop whinging that Cork people should bail it out.But I thought your point was the Westlink and Port Tunnel needed to be bought out for the sake of all the poor Cork hauliers.I have absolutely no interest in any of your other waffle, feel free however to post more misguided ramblings by way of "riposte."I wasn’t expecting you’d so easily admit that you are incapable of defending your case. I accept your abject capitulation.

[Actin The Sham]

Well known Dublin planners like P Flynn. I think you’ll find its just a commercial feasible airport. Shannon, on the other hand ... But I thought your point was the Westlink and Port Tunnel needed to be bought out for the sake of all the poor Cork hauliers.I wasn’t expecting you’d so easily admit that you are incapable of defending your case. I accept your abject capitulation.


You're more then welcome. I bow to your vastly superior knowledge of everything.

Enjoy.

:)

[hans aus dtschl]

I say fuck it, build an airport in east cork, where it was originally intended to be, where it could serve waterford, and make CATIII landings, and leave them run the old one as is.



Im joking, but still...

the anti-dublin sentiment DOES exist, but realistically, Cork generates quite a lot of money, as a county, and i feel its treated as a cash cow in the deep south, where fat cats in government dont really feel the need to go/think about for large tracts in time.

There should have been money for the capital of culture, there should be larger RTE representation, etc etc etc. As a whole, i do think that Cork does get treated in much the same manner as Limerick or, as mentioned, Nenagh, whereas, as a second city, it should hold more clout.

I dont think its anti-Dublin sentiment, in the same way that it's anti "centralisation", if that makes sense. I think people would be just as unhappy if all huge resources were being distributed to Galway, etc...

The reality is that Galway, and other areas are treated just as badly, (eyre square, major parts of limerick, most of the west in general) only we, in Cork, have more clout, as a populace. Or at least, I had thought so.

Almost half a million people in the south Munster area count for fuck all, when Dublin now exists out as far as Portlaoise/Maynooth, Wexford etc.

[Actin The Sham]

Fascinating idea. I wonder would it work? Cork people would have to be angry enough to step up and do something about the current regional imbalance.

Well, Collinstown is clear evidence of the regional imbalance: 21 million people going through an airport every year, yet the state has excess capacity at it's other airports. But rather then encourage the growth of Shannon and Cork, it is instead committed to spend another €1.6 billion on an extension to the black hole of Calcutta that Dublin "airport" has become.

This in a country with a population less than half that of London.


We have demonstrated clearly down the years that we can plan accordingly and the Jack Lynch Tunnel, the Ring Road, the N25 and others have proven that we are good at planning and financing major infrastructural projects. (The port tunnel, designed and built in Dublin ended up costing €300 Million more than originally costed, the Luas, again designed and built in Dublin ended up costing €370 million more than had originally been budgeted for.) So clearly central government in the most centralised country in Europe has failed us.

We have planned on building flyovers over the Bandon and Sarsfield roundabouts in order to improve traffic flow, but unfortunately central government has refused to allocate funds for these.

To be honest I couldn't care less for Dublin or its apologists, I just think that Cork should be allowed more local say in decisions that affect it. For example out of the 475,000 tax discs issued by Cork County Council, last year all of the revenue was transferred to central coffers.

We should be allowed to keep that money here, and spend it accordingly.

[hans aus dtschl]

I think so too, ATS.

We should output, as a percentage, an equal amount, to the west (and other loss-making areas), and Government facilities, as the greater Dublin area does.

And infrastructure, health, entertainment, etc, should be managed, and spent on, with more local say.

[Actin The Sham]

I think so too, ATS.

We should output, as a percentage, an equal amount, to the west (and other loss-making areas), and Government facilities, as the greater Dublin area does.

And infrastructure, health, entertainment, etc, should be managed, and spent on, with more local say.

Wait now, and some moron will start coming on here with trumped up CSO figures justifying how it is actually Cork that is shafting Dublin, and we should be grateful for being treated like Claremorris or Nenagh.


But taking everything into consideration, in my humble opinion, a Cork Local Authority with responsibility for transport, development and marketing should be a priority for whoever forms the next government. Maybe this latest broken promise could be the catalyst for that.

[mrbobdobalina]

The actual situation is Cork and Shannon have new terminals while Dublin runs into a capacity problem with no real action taken.

That is true, but these terminals are no use if airlines can't use them due to them being too expensive. Aer Rianta made a balls of the redevelopment of Dublin airport. Many international experts have testified to this. The redevelopment should have been build at a 33 degree angle so planes could land at both sides.

Personally I think there is no arguement with Dublin - but would it not be in Dublins interest for Shannon and Cork etc to be running at capacity - thus taking some of the queues from Dublin airport?

Of course you neatly forget that Dublin people have accepted the environmental cost of all that traffic for years, nor do you seem to have any wonder in why Dublin’s solution involves a toll – like the Westlink bridge before it. Whereas I don’t remember anyone expecting a few coins to be dropped into a bucket before I pass through the Jack Lynch tunnel as its covered by that little round disc in my windscreen.

Having a toll on the M50 was wrong from the start. In order to encourage traffic out of the city, bypasses should never have tolls. This is international best practice. This is why there is no toll on the (small) Jack Lynch tunnel. It is not Corks fault that the government made a balls of things on the m50, yet we will pay for it (as will the rest of the country) to the tune of 600m.

More than anything, what the problem shows is, ironically, the culmination of years of anti Dublin fixation. Because Cork just banged on about Dublin (as now) there was no particular reason to give Cork any priority over Nenagh

There you are wrong. Cork is the second largest city in Ireland. It makes sense that Cork is developed with that in mind. It would be better for Ireland and for Dublin if this were so. To compare Cork to Nenagh is nonsensical.


Hence, in this ‘discussion’ there’s a perfect willingness to bang on about €1 billion being spent on Dublin Airport – which presumably passengers passing through Dublin will rightly ultimately pay via charges – as if this has some relevance to Cork passengers not contributing to the cost of the terminal they pass through.

I would have thought that Dubliners would be complaining about this €1bn also? Especially considering there were offers on the table to build the terminal for free from the private sector. No such offers were made in Cork, and if they were maybe they would have been considered.

I would also have thought that Dubliners would be happy enough not to let their city grow to the size of LA with 1/4 the population and instead let other centres of population, such as Cork, develop to enhance life in Ireland for all.

[Actin The Sham]

That is true, but these terminals are no use if airlines can't use them due to them being too expensive. Aer Rianta made a balls of the redevelopment of Dublin airport. Many international experts have testified to this. The redevelopment should have been build at a 33 degree angle so planes could land at both sides.

Personally I think there is no arguement with Dublin - but would it not be in Dublins interest for Shannon and Cork etc to be running at capacity - thus taking some of the queues from Dublin airport?



Having a toll on the M50 was wrong from the start. In order to encourage traffic out of the city, bypasses should never have tolls. This is international best practice. This is why there is no toll on the (small) Jack Lynch tunnel. It is not Corks fault that the government made a balls of things on the m50, yet we will pay for it (as will the rest of the country) to the tune of 600m.



There you are wrong. Cork is the second largest city in Ireland. It makes sense that Cork is developed with that in mind. It would be better for Ireland and for Dublin if this were so. To compare Cork to Nenagh is nonsensical.




I would have thought that Dubliners would be complaining about this €1bn also? Especially considering there were offers on the table to build the terminal for free from the private sector. No such offers were made in Cork, and if they were maybe they would have been considered.

I would also have thought that Dubliners would be happy enough not to let their city grow to the size of LA with 1/4 the population and instead let other centres of population, such as Cork, develop to enhance life in Ireland for all.

All good points it must be said.

This dishwhatever poster has form on this issue. Everytime someone posts anything about Cork being ignored in national development plan he pops up with his "statistics."


I just ignore his ramblings now.

;)

[dishwap]

I bow to your vastly superior knowledge of everything.If only you did. Your life would get so much easier.
Well, Collinstown is clear evidence of the regional imbalance: 21 million people going through an airport every year, yet the state has excess capacity at it's other airports.If you considered why this growth continues to be centred in Dublin Airport regardless of its capacity constraints, despite paving the West of Ireland with airports and crippling access from Dublin to North America with the Stopover, you might actually start getting somewhere.To be honest I couldn't care less for Dublin or its apologists,I understand, you hardly mention it.Wait now, and some moron will start coming on here with trumped up CSO figures justifying how it is actually Cork that is shafting Dublin, and we should be grateful for being treated like Claremorris or Nenagh.I’m glad you remember the CSO material. Clearly there is a point in posting here.

What the CSO figures might say is that the cities – Cork, Limerick, Waterford, Galway and Dublin – are the main net contributors to Government revenues. Yes, Dublin’s contribution dwarfs the rest and you probably aren’t in the mood to hear it. But, unless you are a woman and you’re on for a ride, I don’t see why inconvenient facts need to be hidden from you. The point is, of course, that the real divide is urban and rural, but you align yourself to Nenagh and work against your own interests.

The point is not that Dublin people have longer mickeys. The point is as simple as what I’m saying. For as long as you focus your mindset on Dublin you’ll fail. When you get into a mindset of promoting regional development based on the cities and cry foul when some daft scheme like the decentralisation programme envisages putting stuff in Urlingford, something might actually change.

The mindset is simply part of the problem.I just ignore his ramblings now.Of course you do. We all understand that.

[hans aus dtschl]

If only you did. Your life would get so much easier.
If you considered why this growth continues to be centred in Dublin Airport regardless of its capacity constraints, despite paving the West of Ireland with airports and crippling access from Dublin to North America with the Stopover, you might actually start getting somewhere.I understand, you hardly mention it.I’m glad you remember the CSO material. Clearly there is a point in posting here.

What the CSO figures might say is that the cities – Cork, Limerick, Waterford, Galway and Dublin – are the main net contributors to Government revenues. Yes, Dublin’s contribution dwarfs the rest and you probably aren’t in the mood to hear it. But, unless you are a woman and you’re on for a ride, I don’t see why inconvenient facts need to be hidden from you. The point is, of course, that the real divide is urban and rural, but you align yourself to Nenagh and work against your own interests.

The point is not that Dublin people have longer mickeys. The point is as simple as what I’m saying. For as long as you focus your mindset on Dublin you’ll fail. When you get into a mindset of promoting regional development based on the cities and cry foul when some daft scheme like the decentralisation programme envisages putting stuff in Urlingford, something might actually change.

The mindset is simply part of the problem.Of course you do. We all understand that.

Dont understand your sentiments here, im comparing cork county to the greater dublin area. I disagree that the balance is equal, or even near it.

If anywhere, Portlaoise should be given many major new developments, such as the new children's hospital envisaged, and does that not go against your "anti-decentralisation" stance?

[FreakPower]

Of course you neatly forget that Dublin people have accepted the environmental cost of all that traffic for years, nor do you seem to have any wonder in why Dublin’s solution involves a toll – like the Westlink bridge before it.

Very stoic of the Dubs to 'accept' the environmental cost, whatever that means. Sure, Bertie's boondoggles and the sheer stench of pork all over the north of Dublin don't benefit the majority of Dublin people -- they are choking in an overcrowded, overpriced city. The beneficiaries are the corrupt politicans (the rotten nature of Dublin planning is well known) and the consultants who (judging by the few I've spoken with) can't believe they're dealing with such a bunch of crooked pols and thick civil servants.

Suits them down to the ground to have Dublin and Cork people at each other's throats -- Dublin is no more run in the interests of its people than Cork -- it has all the predictable complaints of untrammelled expansion with corrupt planners. New Jersey by the Liffey.

What we need in this country is strong local government with an independent tax-base, and restrict the pork-barrellers to matters requiring national planning (defense, education, health, and some transport). Slash the number of TDs in a third, and federalise the country. Otherwise we're headed for the south-east of England nightmare on the east coast, and starved urban centres around the rest of the country.

The sleight-of-hand of renaming Aer Rianta the DAA before its dastardly behaviour in Cork is guaranteed to make Cork people jump up and down and froth at the mouth. The name will direct their towards hated Dublin. No doubt this was the point. A very clever and slimy move by a government-run multinational that has (as others point out) international interests and is in no sense a 'Dublin' airport authority, as a few hours in the steaming third-world hell of Dublin Airport will convince anyone.

Nah, just mess the names around and the Dubs and Corconians will be fighting bare-knuckled in the dirt-pits to the amusement of the money-men. We're both getting screwed, face it.

The missing link in this picture is, of course, Shannon. What contribution would Cork plan on making to their upkeep in this scenario?

Ah yes, the great white elephant of the West. Why not take it off the respirator and let it die naturally?

More than anything, what the problem shows is, ironically, the culmination of years of anti Dublin fixation.

Yesterday's thinking, man. Get over it. Dubs are shafted, true, but the Talbot St. cully's theory that it's all a conspiracy of those rascally culchies won't wash, really. Dublin is run for the benefit and enlargement of the owners of this State, who are a small group of property developers and businessmen.

Because Cork just banged on about Dublin (as now) there was no particular reason to give Cork any priority over Nenagh. Hence, in this ‘discussion’ there’s a perfect willingness to bang on about €1 billion being spent on Dublin Airport – which presumably passengers passing through Dublin will rightly ultimately pay via charges – as if this has some relevance to Cork passengers not contributing to the cost of the terminal they pass through.

Eh?

There's plenty of paranoia to go around, obviously. I suggest that people start asking cui bono before mouthing off.

As for Cork Airport being a 'matter of pride' for Cork people? Gowanawayoudadat. It's a nice bit o' pork itself, built against recommendations (the original plan was to have it near Middleton -- rail link, flat ground, all that good stuff) on top of a hill notorious for its fog, and is incapable of Cat III landings. I had to fly in and out of the heap every week for three years, and I can assure you that it is a pig's ear. They should never have wasted so much money building an ugly terminal for such an unsuitable location.

Is it true that it was built on the farm of an IRA man as payback for services rendered? Apparently the boyos used to hide there safe from the Brits because of the impenetrable fog.

And those goddamn radio ads? :lol!:

[dishwap]

Personally I think there is no arguement with Dublin - but would it not be in Dublins interest for Shannon and Cork etc to be running at capacity - thus taking some of the queues from Dublin airport?There’s absolutely no argument but that we need regional development based around the cities. It is not Corks fault that the government made a balls of things on the m50, yet we will pay for it (as will the rest of the country) to the tune of 600m.Just to clarify, outside the cities you search high and low for an area that makes a net contribution to Government revenues. I’m all for the idea of national resources being used for national purposes and not expecting Claremorris to be self sufficient. But I think we do need to be clear that the reality is that Dublin makes a massive contribution to Government revenues and those revenues get spent all over. To compare Cork to Nenagh is nonsensical.It is. My point is that’s where the anti-Dublin mindset takes people. I would have thought that Dubliners would be complaining about this €1bn also? Especially considering there were offers on the table to build the terminal for free from the private sector.I think follow the Westlink experience we would do well to be suspicious of any offers from the private sector. I’d rather the asset remained in State hands so that we (assuming you haven’t yet parted from the Irish nation) have the benefit of the income. I would also have thought that Dubliners would be happy enough not to let their city grow to the size of LA with 1/4 the population and instead let other centres of population, such as Cork, develop to enhance life in Ireland for all.They would. To do that they need people from Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford to start taking an interest when their future is being sold down the river by Claremorris and Nenagh.

[Roman Abramovich]

1. cork should have no debt. theyll win it if it goes legal.
2. sell terminal 1 to ryanair and theyll double the income at that airport.
3. ireland is a fuckin joke.

[Actin The Sham]

If only you did. Your life would get so much easier.
If you considered why this growth continues to be centred in Dublin Airport regardless of its capacity constraints, despite paving the West of Ireland with airports and crippling access from Dublin to North America with the Stopover, you might actually start getting somewhere.I understand, you hardly mention it.I’m glad you remember the CSO material. Clearly there is a point in posting here.

What the CSO figures might say is that the cities – Cork, Limerick, Waterford, Galway and Dublin – are the main net contributors to Government revenues. Yes, Dublin’s contribution dwarfs the rest and you probably aren’t in the mood to hear it. But, unless you are a woman and you’re on for a ride, I don’t see why inconvenient facts need to be hidden from you. The point is, of course, that the real divide is urban and rural, but you align yourself to Nenagh and work against your own interests.

The point is not that Dublin people have longer mickeys. The point is as simple as what I’m saying. For as long as you focus your mindset on Dublin you’ll fail. When you get into a mindset of promoting regional development based on the cities and cry foul when some daft scheme like the decentralisation programme envisages putting stuff in Urlingford, something might actually change.

The mindset is simply part of the problem.Of course you do. We all understand that.

I'm glad I remembered your earlier ramblings before I considered "engaging" with you.

I prefer to compliment you. You are all knowing and obviously have a much stronger intellect then I could ever dream of having.

Plus you obviously like to hear that.

So again, I say, "You are brilliant."

Well done.


:)

[Actin The Sham]

There’s absolutely no argument but that we need regional development based around the cities. Just to clarify, outside the cities you search high and low for an area that makes a net contribution to Government revenues. I’m all for the idea of national resources being used for national purposes and not expecting Claremorris to be self sufficient. But I think we do need to be clear that the reality is that Dublin makes a massive contribution to Government revenues and those revenues get spent all over. It is. My point is that’s where the anti-Dublin mindset takes people. I think follow the Westlink experience we would do well to be suspicious of any offers from the private sector. I’d rather the asset remained in State hands so that we (assuming you haven’t yet parted from the Irish nation) have the benefit of the income. They would. To do that they need people from Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford to start taking an interest when their future is being sold down the river by Claremorris and Nenagh.


At last.

Heh heh heh.

:)

Well done again.

[dishwap]

Dont understand your sentiments here, im comparing cork county to the greater dublin area. I disagree that the balance is equal, or even near it.I'm not necessarily arguing - I'm just don't follow what point you are making here.If anywhere, Portlaoise should be given many major new developments, such as the new children's hospital envisaged, and does that not go against your "anti-decentralisation" stance?I cannot understand why a town the size of Portlaoise would be regarded as a suitable location for any national facility. It simply doesn't have the wherewithal to support such a venture. A city would. Consider the difference between locating the Garda Training College in Templemore and locating it, say, in Waterford where it could form useful links to WIT.

[Actin The Sham]

Very stoic of the Dubs to 'accept' the environmental cost, whatever that means. Sure, Bertie's boondoggles and the sheer stench of pork all over the north of Dublin don't benefit the majority of Dublin people -- they are choking in an overcrowded, overpriced city. The beneficiaries are the corrupt politicans (the rotten nature of Dublin planning is well known) and the consultants who (judging by the few I've spoken with) can't believe they're dealing with such a bunch of crooked pols and thick civil servants.

Suits them down to the ground to have Dublin and Cork people at each other's throats -- Dublin is no more run in the interests of its people than Cork -- it has all the predictable complaints of untrammelled expansion with corrupt planners. New Jersey by the Liffey.

What we need in this country is strong local government with an independent tax-base, and restrict the pork-barrellers to matters requiring national planning (defense, education, health, and some transport). Slash the number of TDs in a third, and federalise the country. Otherwise we're headed for the south-east of England nightmare on the east coast, and starved urban centres around the rest of the country.

The sleight-of-hand of renaming Aer Rianta the DAA before its dastardly behaviour in Cork is guaranteed to make Cork people jump up and down and froth at the mouth. The name will direct their towards hated Dublin. No doubt this was the point. A very clever and slimy move by a government-run multinational that has (as others point out) international interests and is in no sense a 'Dublin' airport authority, as a few hours in the steaming third-world hell of Dublin Airport will convince anyone.

Nah, just mess the names around and the Dubs and Corconians will be fighting bare-knuckled in the dirt-pits to the amusement of the money-men. We're both getting screwed, face it.



Ah yes, the great white elephant of the West. Why not take it off the respirator and let it die naturally?



Yesterday's thinking, man. Get over it. Dubs are shafted, true, but the Talbot St. cully's theory that it's all a conspiracy of those rascally culchies won't wash, really. Dublin is run for the benefit and enlargement of the owners of this State, who are a small group of property developers and businessmen.



Eh?

There's plenty of paranoia to go around, obviously. I suggest that people start asking cui bono before mouthing off.

As for Cork Airport being a 'matter of pride' for Cork people? Gowanawayoudadat. It's a nice bit o' pork itself, built against recommendations (the original plan was to have it near Middleton -- rail link, flat ground, all that good stuff) on top of a hill notorious for its fog, and is incapable of Cat III landings. I had to fly in and out of the heap every week for three years, and I can assure you that it is a pig's ear. They should never have wasted so much money building an ugly terminal for such an unsuitable location.

Is it true that it was built on the farm of an IRA man as payback for services rendered? Apparently the boyos used to hide there safe from the Brits because of the impenetrable fog.

And those goddamn radio ads? :lol!:


Excellent points, and in the process you've skinned that single issue dishwap character to shreds.

Finally we're getting back on topic.

[Actin The Sham]

I'm not necessarily arguing - I'm just don't follow what point you are making here.I cannot understand why a town the size of Portlaoise would be regarded as a suitable location for any national facility. It simply doesn't have the wherewithal to support such a venture. A city would. Consider the difference between locating the Garda Training College in Templemore and locating it, say, in Waterford where it could form useful links to WIT.


At least that much is clear.

:)

[dishwap]

I'm glad I remembered your earlier ramblings before I considered "engaging" with you.I obviously had a more profound impact on you that you did on me, because I’m afraid I can’t repay the compliment.
What we need in this country is strong local government with an independent tax-base, and restrict the pork-barrellers to matters requiring national planning (defense, education, health, and some transport). Slash the number of TDs in a third, and federalise the country.That sounds like an agenda I would support.

[Actin The Sham]

I cannot understand why a town the size of Portlaoise would be regarded as a suitable location for any national facility. It simply doesn't have the wherewithal to support such a venture.

Portlaoise:


Dublin 1 hr
Cork 2hr 30mins
Galway 2hrs
Limerick 1hr 30 Mins
Waterford 1hr 20 Mins
Athlone 30 Mins
Carlow 30 Mins
Belfast 3 hrs
Sligo 2hr 30mins
Wexford 1 hr 30 Mins


Seem self explanatory to me. But then I'm not pontificating a worn out centralisation policy.

[dishwap]

Excellent points, and in the process you've skinned that single issue dishwap character to shreds.Or would have if I actually disagreed with what he was saying.At least that much is clear.Quiet word in your ear. You would actually be better off if you admitted when you don't understand something. The alternative is not pretty to watch for the rest of us.

[Actin The Sham]

1. cork should have no debt. theyll win it if it goes legal.
2. sell terminal 1 to ryanair and theyll double the income at that airport.
3. ireland is a fuckin joke.


Heh heh heh...

:)

[dishwap]

Portlaoise:


Dublin 1 hr
Cork 2hr 30mins
Galway 2hrs
Limerick 1hr 30 Mins
Waterford 1hr 20 Mins
Athlone 30 Mins
Carlow 30 Mins
Belfast 3 hrs
Sligo 2hr 30mins
Wexford 1 hr 30 Mins


Seem self explanatory to me. But then I'm not pontificating a worn out centralisation policy.Fine. Put an advert in the papers looking for staff for a national childrens hospital located in Portlaoise and watch the applications flood in.

[Actin The Sham]

Fine. Put an advert in the papers looking for staff for a national childrens hospital located in Portlaoise and watch the applications flood in.



Why?


You never mentioned what kind of facility you were talking about, you merely said "any national facility."

But typically, you change the parameters to suit your single issue diatribe.

[Langer Dan]

Government breaks promises shocker.


FF should be cleaned out in Cork, the cunts.

[Actin The Sham]

From the most recent Aer Rianta/Dublin Airport Authority Annual Report (covering 2004)

Aer Rianta International (ARI), the
subsidiary company which manages airport
retail operations in North America, the
former CIS and the Middle East and which
holds minority shareholdings in the UK’s
Birmingham International Airport and in
Düsseldorf and Hamburg Airports in
Germany, improved its profitability
significantly last year after a difficult year
in 2003. The profit contribution from ARI’s
combined international interests rose to
€9.6 million in 2004 from €5.1 million
the previous year. The principal reasons
for improvement were the continued
strong performance of the international
retail operations, where managed
turnover rose by 20% to €289 million
and reduced losses at Düsseldorf Airport,
in which Dublin Airport Authority has
a 20% holding.
During the year, ARI Middle East signed
a seven-year consultancy contract with
Egypt Air to provide management support
for four Egyptian Airport Duty Free shops,
including Cairo. ARI also established a new
venture at Domodedovo Airport in Moscow
adding to its existing business at
Sheremetyevo Airport in the Russian
capital. In New York, an ARI subsidiary
company, Aer Rianta International Sardana
JFK Inc. opened ten shops in Terminal 4,
at JFK International Airport.


***

So Aer Rianta/Dublin Airport Authority is going to keep ALL of Aer Rianta International, which is projected to make profits in excess of €10 million a year on an ongoing basis. So in other words, Aer Rianta/Dublin Airport Authority want to spin Cork off, keep the €265 million they got for Great Southern Hotels, and keep Aer Rianta International, and on top of that sell 30 acres of a landbank at Cork Airport and lumber Cork Airport with €100 Million of debt?

The plan would appear to be to ensure that Cork has no chance of becoming a viable competitor to Dublin Airport. At the very least Cork Airport should be given a portion of Aer Rianta International and be allowed to keep all of its landbank if it is to be asked to take on this amount of debt.

[dishwap]

You never mentioned what kind of facility you were talking about, you merely said "any national facility."I’ll repeat in the vain hope of getting somewhereIt simply doesn't have the wherewithal to support such a venture. A city would. Consider the difference between locating the Garda Training College in Templemore and locating it, say, in Waterford where it could form useful links to WIT.Does that clarify the point? Good.But typically, you change the parameters to suit your single issue diatribe.Rather, typically you answer the point you wish was made rather than the one you can't answer.

I can see why I have such a big impact on your life.

[dishwap]

So in other words, Aer Rianta/Dublin Airport Authority want to spin Cork off, keep the €265 million they got for Great Southern Hotels, and keep Aer Rianta International, and on top of that sell 30 acres of a landbank at Cork Airport and lumber Cork Airport with €100 Million of debt?Now all you need to do is deduct the cost of sorting out Shannon, the historical losses at Great Southern Hotels and the legacy Aer Rianta pension entitlements. Then you split what’s left pro rata on the basis of passenger traffic at the three airports. Then, presumably, you take back the other half of the debt that the DAA are covering.

Think you got a good deal there?The plan would appear to be to ensure that Cork has no chance of becoming a viable competitor to Dublin Airport.What stops Cork being a viable competitor is an approach to aviation policy that gives a higher priority to Knock, who are now exempt from the Stopover.

[Actin The Sham]

Now all you need to do is deduct the cost of sorting out Shannon, the historical losses at Great Southern Hotels and the legacy Aer Rianta pension entitlements. Then you split what’s left pro rata on the basis of passenger traffic at the three airports. Then, presumably, you take back the other half of the debt that the DAA are covering.

Think you got a good deal there?What stops Cork being a viable competitor is an approach to aviation policy that gives a higher priority to Knock, who are now exempt from the Stopover.



You fail to grasp that Aer Rianta/Dublin Airport Authority made profits of €30 million in 2004.

Knock is not exempt from the stopover. It is in fact the beneficiary of bilateral agreements between the UK and the US, as it itself will be a stopover on flights originating in the UK on their way to the US. If Cork was truly independent as Knock is, then they would be able to negotiate similar deals. But unlike Knock, Aer Rianta/Dublin Airport Authority can and have, prevented Cork from competing with Shannon or Dublin airports.

And of course we should also add in all the accumulated profits of Aer Rianta International. The losses at Great Southern Hotels for the last year in which they were in Aer Rianta ownership were €2.2 million. Prior to that they were profitable, and prior to that they were owned by CIE.

But you can always massage the figures (lie) in order to make them fit your single issue agenda.

Next!

:)

[Ciotóg]

Keep the money generated in Cork within Cork? Cork City or Cork County or Cork South Central or what? Should Glasheen have its own central bank? Madness.

No, I prefer the "Party of the South" idea.

[Actin The Sham]

Keep the money generated in Cork within Cork? Cork City or Cork County or Cork South Central or what? Should Glasheen have its own central bank? Madness.

No, I prefer the "Party of the South" idea.

Agreed.

But as regards monies collected in the regions for things like road tax, for every one euro collected in Cork, and sent to Dublin, by the time it is reallocated back to Cork, ony 68c is returned when you take out all the admin costs.

Surely it would be better for Cork County Council to keep some of the money, and send the rest of it to Dublin for central government funds? That way it would save money on administration surely?

That is what I meant.

[Ciotóg]

Agreed.

But as regards monies collected in the regions for things like road tax, for every one euro collected in Cork, and sent to Dublin, by the time it is reallocated back to Cork, ony 68c is returned when you take out all the admin costs.

Surely it would be better for Cork County Council to keep some of the money, and send the rest of it to Dublin for central government funds? That way it would save money on administration surely?

That is what I meant.
But then don't you lose the ability to come up with things like national devolopment plans and national roads and rail strategies and the like? Things that can only be set up centrally? And why stop with road tax? You could do it with corporation taxes too, where the existing rich, industrialised areas (like Cork) would end up getting richer, and everywhere else poorer? Hardly a desirable situation.

And of course there are admin costs. You want government, you pay for it, whether it's local or central.

I'd prefer much better Cork clout, as it's pretty obvious that we're way underrepresented at the moment. 15 TDs? Twice the the numbers that the (overrepresented) PDs have right now. Easy.

[dishwap]

You fail to grasp that Aer Rianta/Dublin Airport Authority made profits of €30 million in 2004.I think its more that you’ve failed to relate this fact to the matter in hand.Knock is not exempt from the stopover. It is in fact the beneficiary of bilateral agreements between the UK and the US, as it itself will be a stopover on flights originating in the UK on their way to the US.I suppose at least you’ve given up your spirited campaign for a national childrens hospital in Portlaoise, but replacing it with a spirited defence of Knock illustrates what I mean when I say the anti Dublin mindset causes you to make Nenagh’s case to the detriment of Cork.But unlike Knock, Aer Rianta/Dublin Airport Authority can and have, prevented Cork from competing with Shannon or Dublin airports.The problem is the stopover, which screwed Dublin as part of the deal was keeping its runway too short for fully laden cargo aircraft. One thing that facilitated this was the anti-Dublin mindset in Cork meaning that any time an attempt was made to attack the stopover regime, it was allowed to become a Dublin vs the rest of the country issue. Your mindset allows Shannon to leave you with patches of grass on your knees and a used condom up your ass.But you can always massage the figures (lie) in order to make them fit your single issue agenda.Or, as in you case, simply ignore them altogether. The absence of any comment on costs in Shannon speaks volumes.

[Actin The Sham]

But then don't you lose the ability to come up with things like national devolopment plans and national roads and rail strategies and the like? Things that can only be set up centrally? And why stop with road tax? You could do it with corporation taxes too, where the existing rich, industrialised areas (like Cork) would end up getting richer, and everywhere else poorer? Hardly a desirable situation.

And of course there are admin costs. You want government, you pay for it, whether it's local or central.

I'd prefer much better Cork clout, as it's pretty obvious that we're way underrepresented at the moment. 15 TDs? Twice the the numbers that the (overrepresented) PDs have right now. Easy.

I think you are misrepresenting me. I am saying that instead of sending say €100 to central coffers and receiving back €68 after administrative costs are paid, wouldn't it be better that we have a local and a central tax. You seem to be implying that I was saying that I didn't want to send anything to central coffers. I merely said that we should have more control over funding locally. As in out of every €100 collected locally, we keep €32 and use it to spend on local infrastructure and send the €68 to central coffers.


If more Cork clout delivers that, then fine.

[Actin The Sham]

I think its more that you’ve failed to relate this fact to the matter in hand.I suppose at least you’ve given up your spirited campaign for a national childrens hospital in Portlaoise, but replacing it with a spirited defence of Knock illustrates what I mean when I say the anti Dublin mindset causes you to make Nenagh’s case to the detriment of Cork.The problem is the stopover, which screwed Dublin as part of the deal was keeping its runway too short for fully laden cargo aircraft. One thing that facilitated this was the anti-Dublin mindset in Cork meaning that any time an attempt was made to attack the stopover regime, it was allowed to become a Dublin vs the rest of the country issue. Your mindset allows Shannon to leave you with patches of grass on your knees and a used condom up your ass.Or, as in you case, simply ignore them altogether. The absence of any comment on costs in Shannon speaks volumes.



When did I ever "campaign for a national childrens hospital in Portlaoise?" Your vulgarities merely serve to reinforce my view of you as someone with a delusional grasp of reality.

And pointing out your ignorance of the nature of the Shannon stopover results in you assuming that I am mounting a spirited defence of Knock?

Come now, ignorance on your part is no justification for making incorrect assumptions.

[dishwap]

Your vulgarities merely serve to reinforce my view of you as someone with a delusional grasp of reality.I understand that. It has nothing to do with your inability to make a coherent case. And pointing out your ignorance of the nature of the Shannon stopover results in you assuming that I am mounting a spirited defence of Knock? I wouldn’t quite put it like that, but indeed your rush to Knock’s defence is illustrative of the mindset.

[Actin The Sham]

I understand that. It has nothing to do with your inability to make a coherent case.I wouldn’t quite put it like that, but indeed your rush to Knock’s defence is illustrative of the mindset.


It might be an idea for you to highlight where "I rushed to Knock's (sic) defence." I merely pointed out the flaw in your analysis of the stopover.

Your preconceived notions appear to be influencing your posts here.

[Langer Dan]

And remember, we have to pay this €1,000,000.00 because of the present government. No one in Cork should vote for FF after this. Places closing down all over the gaff and very hard to get new jobs to replace them because they have fawked this up. Half the airport business park is empty now as a result.

Hopefully the airport can turn this around to some degree, not help from Minister for Transport (Cullen, kunt more like) i'd bet.

And Micheal Martin comes steaming in saying how the Govt has called this one correctly. What a prize turd. The Minister for enterprise is doing a great job in single handedly running Cork business into the ground.

[dishwap]

Your preconceived notions appear to be influencing your posts here.Your capacity to generalise from the particular doesn't cloak your rush to defend Knock.

[Ciotóg]

Your preconceived notions appear to be influencing your posts here.
Is that a sin now?

I don't know about the local taxes thing. They have it in the US, so maybe it works there. You seem to know a lot about it, so it would probably work here too.

[Langer Dan]

Flyovers for Sarsfield and Bandon Road Roundabouts

Redevelopment of the Railway Station to face the quays

Reopening of the Cork Midleton Railway

Removal of €100 Million Debt from Cork Airport

Replacement of Cork Swansea Ferry Link

These should be the minimum that any government TD, (or aspiring government, is opposition TD) should be tackled with on the doorsteps.



All transport related, all not happening, all talked about, all on the long finger.

Yep agree wholeheartedly. In fairness work is underway on the midleton line. Iv seen it myself. They've gone some way to clearing the track.

But the govt neglect of Cork is shameful. We get 5 year national development plans on the eve of election, thats all well and good but where was the plan for the last 9 years?

[Roman Abramovich]

But as regards monies collected in the regions for things like road tax, for every one euro collected in Cork, and sent to Dublin, by the time it is reallocated back to Cork, ony 68c is returned when you take out all the admin costs.


does the money take the toll road?

[Ciotóg]

The economy that boomed. That was the plan for the last nine years. No one was ready for it.

[##linda##]

The Minister for Transport Martin Cullen has urged all sides in the Shannon Airport dispute to find a solution, and quickly.

It emerged earlier this week that the Shannon Airport Authority has withdrawn a €35m restructuring plan, which had been rejected by staff several weeks ago.

Today both SIPTU and management agreed to enter talks at the Labour Relations Commission.

Mr Cullen said he was frustrated that the dispute was preventing the airport from reaching its full potential:

"There are serious issues facing Shannon," he admitted.

"I am anxious to get out into America to sell the brand of Shannon - it is the major iconic airport in the West of Ireland.

"They have been caught up in a position that does not allow them to develop the real business opportunities that now exist for the development of Shannon.

"I would urge all parties to come to a satisfactory conclusion."

[Langer Dan]

The economy that boomed. That was the plan for the last nine years. No one was ready for it.

thats really neither here nor there.

To say a govt couldnt formulate a coherant national transport strategy in nine years in office due to a boom is nonsensical.

The current administrations record on basic issues is deplorable. The fiasco surrounding Cork airport and its funding is merely another example of that ineptitude.

[Actin The Sham]

Is that a sin now?

I don't know about the local taxes thing. They have it in the US, so maybe it works there. You seem to know a lot about it, so it would probably work here too.

I pay local taxes for some of my properties on the continent. These taxes are used by the local authority for local services. I also pay taxes to the central government in the country concerned. These taxes are used for the good of the country as a whole.

I don't know how they work in the US.

As for the "preconceived notions" comment that was specific to a number of misled assumptions made by another poster who is choosing to read into my posts "facts" that simply aren't there.

You always argue factually, and concisely, if only all other posters could be the same.

[dishwap]

I am anxious to get out into America to sell the brand of Shannon - it is the major iconic airport in the West of Ireland.For this week. Incidently, here's (http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story_business_islan d.asp?j=211093294&p=zyyx94xxx) €27million of the €100 million you're looking forThe Government has announced €27m in funding for Ireland West Airport in Knock today.

The announcement Transport Minister Martin Cullen was made under the new Capital Expenditure Grant Scheme for Regional Airports and marks the single largest investment in the history of the airport.Did you ever get the feeling the country is just all airported out?another poster who is choosing to read into my posts "facts" that simply aren't there.Apologies, I never meant to suggest that your posts were informed by facts.

[Actin The Sham]

For this week. Incidently, here's (http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story_business_islan d.asp?j=211093294&p=zyyx94xxx) €27million of the €100 million you're looking forDid you ever get the feeling the country is just all airported out?Apologies, I never meant to suggest that your posts were informed by facts.



Apology accepted, it must be hard for you to suggest anything other than that you have mastered the "art" of selective quoting.


I look forward to your "withering riposte."

:)

[Actin The Sham]

Mr Cullen said he was frustrated


That explains a lot.

;)

[hans aus dtschl]

sorry, just to clarify, WRT the children's hospital etc....there were plans to build new specific children's facilities.

No consultants were sought, and it was declared that crumlin hospital was the most suited, just three weeks ago.

Staff/management at the hospital refused to work with it, citing lack of space as an issue, and outside, the location was thought of as incorrect, as transport facilities were inadequate, considering the majority of the expected patients would be to use the hospital on a regular (3 times a week) basis, and would statistically be more likely to come from outside dublin, than within.


In this scenario, perhaps I reached an incorrect conclusion in thinking a central point, geographically, would suit the needs. Im not in possession of ALL of the facts concerned, so feel free to enlighten me (anybody) why said hospital's basis in Portlaoise would be such a bad idea, bearing in mind that it has some of the best road access in the country?



As for the airport, which is what we SHOULD be debating, I cannot understand why cork SHOULD have to pay a debt created by another company. This just doesnt make sense to me. Is there no question of refusal of the facility, or has ownership been handed over? And if ownership HAS been handed over, has debt been handed over with it?

[Actin The Sham]

As for the airport, which is what we SHOULD be debating, I cannot understand why cork SHOULD have to pay a debt created by another company. This just doesnt make sense to me. Is there no question of refusal of the facility, or has ownership been handed over? And if ownership HAS been handed over, has debt been handed over with it?

Excellent point. I think we are being sidetracked by someone who has consistently sought to reduce this whole issue to a stupid "Cork Versus Dublin" argument.

Ownership hasn't been handed over yet, the CAA are still considering their next move. This is a political issue, and as such we should be lobbying our TDs and local politicians.

[dishwap]

Apology accepted, it must be hard for you to suggest anything other than that you have mastered the "art" of selective quoting.I'm not sure you quite knew how to get out of that sentence once you'd started. If you press that long key on the top right with an arrow pointing left it will erase what you've typed, and you can start again.I look forward to your "withering riposte."I'm sorry to disappoint, but you need to give me something to work with.

[dishwap]

In this scenario, perhaps I reached an incorrect conclusion in thinking a central point, geographically, would suit the needs. Im not in possession of ALL of the facts concerned, so feel free to enlighten me (anybody) why said hospital's basis in Portlaoise would be such a bad idea, bearing in mind that it has some of the best road access in the country?Because Portlaoise is too small a town to support such a facility. For starters, you won't get the specialised staff you need to locate there. Journey time is far from being the most important factor. There has to be a facility worth visiting at the end of the journey.I cannot understand why cork SHOULD have to pay a debt created by another company. This just doesnt make sense to meFine, are you effectively saying you'd be happy to vacate the terminal and let it rot. If that is the position, then as I understand it the DAA will simply go on owning it and have to tout for passengers.

[dishwap]

Excellent point. I think we are being sidetracked by someone who has consistently sought to reduce this whole issue to a stupid "Cork Versus Dublin" argument.You are being too hard on yourself, but hopefully we can leave all that behind us now that you've come around to understanding my point of the need to get behind a regional development strategy based on cities.

[markinmanc]

You are being too hard on yourself, but hopefully we can leave all that behind us now that you've come around to understanding my point of the need to get behind a regional development strategy based on cities.


You mean a policy reducing the economic viability of Cork? I do like the way you have moved the debate from the original issue - your FF paymasters will be proud.

[corkoniense]

Will you two stop arguing over one another and stick to the point?
This is too vital an issue for cork to be reduced to nitpicking by two posters...

Dishwap has a point; namely that Cork should not be focusing on dublin this that and the other. it is the third biggest city in Ireland, the second city in the State, and Most Importantly, the biggest city in Munster. Our politicians and especially our civil servants and media, split the State into two regions, namely, Dublin and "down" the country. This benefits property owners and power brokers in dublin(it destroys dublin's lower income class though-more poverty and homelessness in Dublin proportionately than anywhere else) and people from rural/smally town ireland. Therefore, the Government comes up with wheezes like relocating administrative jobs to small towns that have no hope of attracting people from Dublin, whie guaranteeing that REAL decision making power lies in the hands of smaller group of people: Dept of Finance officials and select business interests.

We need a new national spatial strategy that recognises Dublin, Cork and Galway as the principle cities of their respective reigions(provinces) and allows for the direct election of mayors in all five of our cities, allowing our councils to levy taxes to pay for their services, but creating some system of accountabilty that goes with councils' new powers.
We also need to reduce the number of TDs in the Dail, as a TD can get elected with less than 7,000 first preference votes plus transfers. That means that some TDs may have actually shaken hands with every single person who voted him. it is that clientelism that is destroying any vision for this country.

From a Cork perspective, we desperately need a transport authority that links up bus routes, rail services( commuter and light rail), open railway routes to Waterford and re-open the old route to Limerick which should move on to Galway. The onlly way the western rail corridor will work is if Cork is directly included in a plan to link Derry with Galway with Limerick etc.

There are 6 FF TDs out of 10 TDs in Cork city, as mentioned, but there are also 12 FF TDs out of 20 TDs in the entire county. They had nine before 1997 and 10 before 2002. No other part of the country has developed such a loyal FF base, and that is why we are treated like shit. You may think that Rabbitte and Kenny are morons, but if we end up with with 12 out of 20 again, we can only say we deserved it.

personally, Im hoping for FG/Lab/Greens in June, and that they govern for five years in the full knowledge that they willl lose in 2012. They surely will for that is the FF way, looking at our electoral histroy. Therefore, if a new coalition governs knowing they will lose in 2012, they could make lasting changes to our society before the savages get back in. A Start would be a new regional and transport policy.

rant over

[hans aus dtschl]

Because Portlaoise is too small a town to support such a facility. For starters, you won't get the specialised staff you need to locate there. Journey time is far from being the most important factor. There has to be a facility worth visiting at the end of the journey.Fine, are you effectively saying you'd be happy to vacate the terminal and let it rot. If that is the position, then as I understand it the DAA will simply go on owning it and have to tout for passengers.



thats a bit of a cart and horse scenario, again, im afraid?

people wont want to go there because they havn't been going there.


Its an hour from dublin.

People commute from further afield, and portlaoise itself is a commuter town, realistically.

The new hospital planned is providing new services, and doesnt need the existing facilities of crumlin.

On the contrary, the crumlin management believed a peripheral town of dublin would be best.

Your whole argument against such a facility is that people wont want to work there, and this is offset against "transport isnt everything" and i just dont see how that makes sense.

The staff of the new hospital are NOT from dublin. Because there are, as of yet, no staff, for a hospital which does not exist. As such, this is not decentralisation of staff. Nobody will "not want to go" and realistically, a central location would open the facility up to a larger workforce, as well as providing for a larger community?



And we digress.

The point in being is that a facility was built, which could cripple itself.
It would almost be better, in my opinion, to continue as was, than to risk for the future.

[dishwap]

We need a new national spatial strategy that recognises Dublin, Cork and Galway as the principle cities of their respective reigions(provinces) and allows for the direct election of mayors in all five of our cities, allowing our councils to levy taxes to pay for their services, but creating some system of accountabilty that goes with councils' new powers.
We also need to reduce the number of TDs in the Dail, as a TD can get elected with less than 7,000 first preference votes plus transfers. That means that some TDs may have actually shaken hands with every single person who voted him. it is that clientelism that is destroying any vision for this country.A reasonable and sensible agenda.Your whole argument against such a facility is that people wont want to work there, and this is offset against "transport isnt everything" and i just dont see how that makes sense.I don't follow your whole sentence, but I'd say my whole argument isn't that people won't want to work there, but that is a very strong consideration. The idea of people driving to work there from all over is just not sustainable. That's a wider agenda, but really its a little stunning to see that reality so lightly passed by.

Look at it the other way around. Say you want a national children's hospital. You are conscious that the country is small, so you'll only have one. Where do you put it? I'd suggest concerns like locating it somewhere there's a medical school, which is good for the hospital and good for the school. Somewhere you'll find a pool of staff you can recruit from, unless you're planning on retraining meat packers as paediatric surgeons through the auspices of FAS. You certainly will think about access to the location from around the country and, unless you really haven't been keeping up on current events, you'll be thinking about how people can get there from all over the country by public transport.

I don't see how Portlaoise would survive more than thirty seconds in any selection process. It could only be conceived of locating such a facility in a city and, tbh, is there any real reason for that city not being Dublin. Put another way, why would you think patient care would be better elsewhere?

Shifting mindsets is not easy, but can I suggest just mulling over a few questions.

The Government has €27 million to spend on airports. Where could it be most usefully put - Cork or Knock?

What location might best be able to support useful linkages to the Garda Training College - Templemore or Waterford City?

You want to establish a national childrens hospital capable of providing services to the best international standards, including specialities currently not available in the State. What's the best location - Dublin or Portlaoise?
It would almost be better, in my opinion, to continue as was, than to risk for the future.In fairness, that's a logically consistent position that I can't fault.

[Actin The Sham]

Aer Rianta/Dublin Airport have advertised the sale of 10 acres of land at Cork Airport for €30 Million Euro.

Three million people a year use Cork Airport. Each one pays approximately €10 in charges which go to Aer Rianta/Dublin Airport Authority. This is €30 Million a year that the state is getting directly from Cork passengers for using the airport.

Minister Cullen gave €600 million of our money to National Toll Roads to buy out a bridge in Dublin which was sold to a private operator by a corrupt Dublin planner.


Mnister Cullen gave €22.5 million to Waterford Regional Airport yesterday in his own constituency. He hardly wants a strong, large competitor up the road in Cork.


Bertie Ahern received a loan of €70,000 from his buddies to buy his house a few years ago. He promised to pay this back. He referred to this as a "debt of honour," as it was a verbal promise. When it came out in public, he paid it back.

Seamus Brennan, a member of Bertie Aherns government promised Cork airport would start operations "debt free." Is this not a "debt of honour?"

For those of us who live and work in Cork this has become much more important then the airport. This has become an iconic issue which should be raised with every candidate in the forthcoming election.

[hans aus dtschl]

A reasonable and sensible agenda.I don't follow your whole sentence, but I'd say my whole argument isn't that people won't want to work there, but that is a very strong consideration. The idea of people driving to work there from all over is just not sustainable. That's a wider agenda, but really its a little stunning to see that reality so lightly passed by.

Look at it the other way around. Say you want a national children's hospital. You are conscious that the country is small, so you'll only have one. Where do you put it? I'd suggest concerns like locating it somewhere there's a medical school, which is good for the hospital and good for the school. Somewhere you'll find a pool of staff you can recruit from, unless you're planning on retraining meat packers as paediatric surgeons through the auspices of FAS. You certainly will think about access to the location from around the country and, unless you really haven't been keeping up on current events, you'll be thinking about how people can get there from all over the country by public transport.

I don't see how Portlaoise would survive more than thirty seconds in any selection process. It could only be conceived of locating such a facility in a city and, tbh, is there any real reason for that city not being Dublin. Put another way, why would you think patient care would be better elsewhere?

Shifting mindsets is not easy, but can I suggest just mulling over a few questions.

The Government has €27 million to spend on airports. Where could it be most usefully put - Cork or Knock?

What location might best be able to support useful linkages to the Garda Training College - Templemore or Waterford City?



I understand the sentiment for sure, but my point (in almost entirety) was that the hospital was ill-suited to crumlin, and no consultants sought to find the best location. Yet it was still railroaded through, in a "throw it at dublin" move. As someone on here mentioned, this isn't really an "us and them" issue now, as such decisions are having a negative effect on dublin also. The main reason Crumlin management refused to work the scenario was because of traffic concerns (laughably the main reason presented for having that hospital in Crumlin was "because it was near a dart") In fairness Portlaoise is my own concoction, and your reasons for disagreeing with that are fairly sound. My problem here is not "get it out of dublin area" but rather "stop railroading things into dublin".


The Cork Airport situation as we've portrayed it on this thread (collectively) is slightly out of kilter with what's actually going on. But realistically, all i see is another minister caught lying, and the others not having the balls to stand up for their constituency, when it could mean their party doesnt much like them any more.

[Actin The Sham]

The Cork Airport situation as we've portrayed it on this thread (collectively) is slightly out of kilter with what's actually going on. But realistically, all i see is another minister caught lying, and the others not having the balls to stand up for their constituency, when it could mean their party doesnt much like them any more.

I think it's important that we keep the airport issue on the agenda. I also think that the news about Minister Cullen spending €22.5 million on Waterford Airport is further evidence that all politics in this country are local, and that we should remind government tds of this fact in the next election.

[doppellanger]

We need a new national spatial strategy that recognises Dublin, Cork and Galway as the principle cities of their respective reigions(provinces) and allows for the direct election of mayors in all five of our cities, allowing our councils to levy taxes to pay for their services, but creating some system of accountabilty that goes with councils' new powers.

This sounds good in theory - but those things that are locally managed like planning, transport and previously health would make me very sceptical of local government in this country.

[hans aus dtschl]

Absolutely, ATS.

Lets not forget how little is being spent on public transport in cork, compared to his wonderful "park and ride" system in waterford last year. (or was it the year before last?).

There's no doubt Cullen is looking after his own.

If only we had a minister in cabinet from somewhere near cork....hmmm...


I honestly believe our locally elected politicians are to blame. If they cant represent the mindset of their local people, they shouldn't have the job they do have.

Airport
Numerous roadways
Busses
Sea Transport
Trains
Media representation

all hugely underfunded in cork.


And i know there's a lot more besides, that i've not mentioned.

Realistically, no fault to Bertie, Cullen and co. Its mé féin governing, and they're serving their areas well.

But if i voted FF in the next election, i would feel i'd be asking for more of same, and that would mean fuck all representation in Cork.

[Actin The Sham]

And just in case Bertie tries to weasel out of this by saying that Seamus Brennan was acting alone this is what Bertie told the Dáil in November 2003:

"It is the ministers view that both Cork and Shannon have an excellent future with this debt free start. He brought this view to Government last week, and the Government agreed with him."


So there you have it: Taoiseach Bertie Ahern approved the promise and repeated it in the Dáil. I would have thought that the Taoiseachs word in the Dáil would have meant something, would have been as it were, "a debt of honour," but apparently the Taoiseachs word to Cork is worth far less than the "debt of honour" he owed to his buddies who "gave him a dig out" during his marital difficulties.


This money was paid back, when it leaked into the public domain and when it was convenient for the Taoiseach to refer to it as a loan rather than a gift. He said, "It was always a loan, and I made a promise to pay it back. I am a man of my word and even though I wasn't asked to repay the money, I always looked on it as a "debt of honour" as I had made a promise that I would pay it back at some stage."



Now people, for Gods sake and for the sake of Corks dignity, please, please remember these words when the election comes along.

[FreakPower]

Realistically, no fault to Bertie, Cullen and co. Its mé féin governing, and they're serving their areas well.

Grrrr. The system is screwed completely, if we can't apportion blame to national politicians for thinking locally. FF have done nothing for Cork since CJH got in (and precious little before, despite St. Jack's maundering about Blackpool spirit -- he left them in the shit where he found them). Mickey Martin is cut from the same cloth -- weak within Fianna Fáil, he counts on the usual political quiescence of Cork people, and the tribal voting patterns to get himself in. Captain of the photo-op, he is, though with the ugly drooling baldheaded phiz on him, I can't determine why. A pass history student in UCC, Biffo and the cute hoors that run FF are running rings around the dork.

It's bigger than Cork though, it includes Limerick, Galway, Tralee -- the whole of South-West Ireland. This area is being rendered economically unviable as an act of policy.

Dish-boy is spot on about the Dublin vs cluchie mentality that is encoded in the Irish civil service -- though it might these days be better expressed as a Pale vs Wilde Irishe mentality -- right back to the salad days of the of occupation, we are, outside the Palisade all is night.

Moving govt departments to bog-holes is just the usual pork -- securing FF marginals, jobs for the shams. None of these 'outsourced' enclaves will have any mitigating effect on the Pale-centric vision of this country -- outsourcing govt departments to cities, with, y'know, universities, and ... trade, and ... airports ... might change the way the water flows in this country, and we can't have that.

To the poster that expressed the need for a national spatial strategy, I would point out that we already have one, concoted by 'independent consultants' at great expense to the taxpayer. Good for starting fires, that. Just select your gateway city of choice, and apply a naked flame. Warmth will soon follow.

FF took a British civil service (unreformed, with all of the institutional mentality that implies) and used it as a means of fleecing the country. This is a banana republic (with turnips instead of bananas).

[corkoniense]

This sounds good in theory - but those things that are locally managed like planning, transport and previously health would make me very sceptical of local government in this country.


Ah but they are badly managed precisely because there is no power and no responsibility/accountability. local govt has been stripped of its powers ever since independence, first to counteract the anti treaty power of the so called munster republics. (we only have councils because of the Brits: 1898) Then they were destroyed in 1977 by jack lynch's govt(yeah he was great to stand up to haughey, but he bankrupted the country and local govt) when rates were abolished, meaning that all funding of local govt is now central funding, plus the iniquitous bin charges and especially, business charges, for which many cork businesses are going to the wall.

If you create an elected body and give next it to no powers, who will run for it? Answer: idiots. You can see that in our senate, in our councils and so on. it was even the case when the European Parliament had no powers, it was a retirement junket for over the hill politicians.it possibly still is.

Cork needs local control over transport in the shape of a Cork transport authority. if the Victorian Brits could see fit to create a transport system second to none in Cork, then why do our own "patriot" FFers do sweet Fckall?

If FF do not lose 5-7 seats in all of County Cork in the next election, then we might as well pack it in......

[EDDIEB]

Ah but they are badly managed precisely because there is no power and no responsibility/accountability. local govt has been stripped of its powers ever since independence, first to counteract the anti treaty power of the so called munster republics. (we only have councils because of the Brits: 1898) Then they were destroyed in 1977 by jack lynch's govt(yeah he was great to stand up to haughey, but he bankrupted the country and local govt) when rates were abolished, meaning that all funding of local govt is now central funding, plus the iniquitous bin charges and especially, business charges, for which many cork businesses are going to the wall.

If you create an elected body and give next it to no powers, who will run for it? Answer: idiots. You can see that in our senate, in our councils and so on. it was even the case when the European Parliament had no powers, it was a retirement junket for over the hill politicians.it possibly still is.


Cork needs local control over transport in the shape of a Cork transport authority. if the Victorian Brits could see fit to create a transport system second to none in Cork, then why do our own "patriot" FFers do sweet Fckall?

If FF do not lose 5-7 seats in all of County Cork in the next election, then we might as well pack it in......

Cork had massive infrastructure in Ports,Railways,Elect ric Trams as a very important part of the British Empire but what did we do when we got our independance - rip it all out during almost 75 years of economic mismanagement and gross neglect of planning for the future.

Cork is being shafted big time - traffic yesterday evening at Sarsfield road & Bandon road roundabouts backed up.

Rumours that Ryanair will be moving from Farranfore and basing more aircraft in Waterford.

Also Birmingham & Dusseldorf airports are being sold along with the G.S.Hotel group.Cheques made payable to Dublin Airport Authority whislt we get a half finished airport with 1 airbridge.

You could get the ferry to Swansea but thats gone also so drive to Rosslare ?

[doppellanger]

Ah but they are badly managed precisely because there is no power and no responsibility/accountability. local govt has been stripped of its powers ever since independence, first to counteract the anti treaty power of the so called munster republics. (we only have councils because of the Brits: 1898) Then they were destroyed in 1977 by jack lynch's govt(yeah he was great to stand up to haughey, but he bankrupted the country and local govt) when rates were abolished, meaning that all funding of local govt is now central funding, plus the iniquitous bin charges and especially, business charges, for which many cork businesses are going to the wall.

If you create an elected body and give next it to no powers, who will run for it? Answer: idiots. You can see that in our senate, in our councils and so on. it was even the case when the European Parliament had no powers, it was a retirement junket for over the hill politicians.it possibly still is.

Cork needs local control over transport in the shape of a Cork transport authority. if the Victorian Brits could see fit to create a transport system second to none in Cork, then why do our own "patriot" FFers do sweet Fckall?

If FF do not lose 5-7 seats in all of County Cork in the next election, then we might as well pack it in......


I agree with you, theoretically speaking. But if the national government is guilty of clientelism and selling out to vested interests, then how likely is local government that governs for the benefit of the people, as opposed to for the same vested interests?

Maybe I'm just being cynical, maybe it would be better than the present system. But it would not be in the interests of the incumbents to change it i.e. the Government, sitting TDs etc. are probably happy with the status quo, especially if they get a junior ministerial car etc. and the local councillors are probably happy enough that there is basically no accountability and yet enough power to do favours for their buddies.

[corkoniense]

fair enough doppellganger, i take your point about clientelism.

but although i am cynical too, I have to have some bit of hope that politicans get into the game for the benefit of the citizenry....at least some of the time. i know the alternative isnt great, but the political culture has become institutionalised FF. even five years of FG/lab/ and especially Greens would make a change.

Re the point about ports, railways and trams of British empire in cork. Isn't it funny that we fought for independence (and I am proud of that!) only to rip up so much of the good that the "Romans" did for us????

are we a post-conolial African kleptocracy, or a true republic?

rhetorical question i know. just vote the bastards out!!

[Langer Dan]

Waterford gets 28million the same day Cork gets rode for 100million.


Cullen is a despicable cunt.

[FreakPower]

I agree with you, theoretically speaking. But if the national government is guilty of clientelism and selling out to vested interests, then how likely is local government that governs for the benefit of the people, as opposed to for the same vested interests?

The key is direct accountability. Take Paris, for example. Corruption is rife, but they have excellent transport systems/infrastructure and so on. Corruption per se isn't the problem, it's more the lack of ability to hold inefficient & wasteful politicians to account.

Obviously certain things (national roads/rail etc) make sense on a national level, but when you look at the highways through Roscommon/Longford, the frickin' Gorey bypass and other monuments to pork barrel politics, obviously the barrier to entry for corruption is far too low in this country.

We have far too many TDs, and lack of effective local governance (which should be based around the large cities -- regionalism in effect) means that local interests have to be appeased at national level.

We have a descendant of the British system institutionally, where all revenues are gathered to the Crown and disbursed accordingly, and a descendant of the more usual democratic system constitutionally, where power rests with the people until kicked upwards. Reconciling these two modes of government with an unreformed civil service is nigh on impossible.

Best to secede, I think.

[FreakPower]

Re the point about ports, railways and trams of British empire in cork. Isn't it funny that we fought for independence (and I am proud of that!) only to rip up so much of the good that the "Romans" did for us????

The effers strike again -- Todd Andrews and the 'railways are imperialist' gang. Many of Dargan's rails were propping up barns in Ireland.

Wonder does CIE still own the land on which the railways ran? I mean, the Brits did all of the levelling and blasting -- all we have to do is clap down some rails, some caternary wires, and you can commute from Bandon to Cork without the hassle of the Dunnes Stores roundabout! Electric too, so when the Peak Oil balloon goes up we'll be able to generate our power by burning blue whales, or penguins, or whatever, without having to retool the infrastructure.

Handy, ain't it, that Ben Dunne foresightedly bought a nice parcel of land on every new ring road built in Ireland? Must have crystal balls, that fella.



are we a post-conolial African kleptocracy, or a true republic?

When public policy is decided in the tents at the Galway races, and tax evaders are revered as public figures, we're definitely edging toward the second.

[Langer Dan]

The effers strike again -- Todd Andrews and the 'railways are imperialist' gang. Many of Dargan's rails were propping up barns in Ireland.

Wonder does CIE still own the land on which the railways ran? I mean, the Brits did all of the levelling and blasting -- all we have to do is clap down some rails, some caternary wires, and you can commute from Bandon to Cork without the hassle of the Dunnes Stores roundabout! Electric too, so when the Peak Oil balloon goes up we'll be able to generate our power by burning blue whales, or penguins, or whatever, without having to retool the infrastructure.

Handy, ain't it, that Ben Dunne foresightedly bought a nice parcel of land on every new ring road built in Ireland? Must have crystal balls, that fella.





When public policy is decided in the tents at the Galway races, and tax evaders are revered as public figures, we're definitely edging toward the second.


nope they've been built on. In an inspired feat of short sightedness. But lets build hundreds of millions worth of new roads cos petrol will never run out , ever.


The Midleton line is still intact though and should come online around 2040.

[doppellanger]

nope they've been built on. In an inspired feat of short sightedness. But lets build hundreds of millions worth of new roads cos petrol will never run out , ever.


The Midleton line is still intact though and should come online around 2040.

it's easy to say it was shortsighted with hindsight but I think in the early days of the state and during the Emergency there wasn't as much dosh to go around as there is now.

And weren't the train companies pretty much decentralised anyway (Great Southern Railways etc) so you can only blame central government so much.

[corkoniense]

And weren't the train companies pretty much decentralised anyway (Great Southern Railways etc) so you can only blame central government so much

yeah but they were centralised following the creation of CIE, and the appointment of Todd Andrews, who promptly closed down almost every single railway that did not lead to dublin. "Intercity" railways and "interurban" motorways are actually railways and motorways that lead from "regional" cities (the bogs) to Dublin, not railways and motorways that connect up different cities.
Brits tried to rule us with the dublin castle mentality for centuries, yet the first thing we do when we get independence is embellish such top-down rule.

Todd Andrews was an FF TD and Minister, as was his son, David Andrews, and now his grandson, Barry Andrews, is a backbench TD hoping for preferment after the election. An absolute monument to jaw-dropping stupidity of the Irish electorate down the generations.......

[mrbobdobalina]

How local policy is run in Cork:
http://www.village.ie/sample/sample/controversial_rezoni ngs_in_cork/

[FreakPower]

How local policy is run in Cork:
http://www.village.ie/sample/sample/controversial_rezoni ngs_in_cork/

Boggle shake shake? Has this gone ahead?

Bastards.

[cartoon]

And just in case Bertie tries to weasel out of this by saying that Seamus Brennan was acting alone this is what Bertie told the Dáil in November 2003:

"It is the ministers view that both Cork and Shannon have an excellent future with this debt free start. He brought this view to Government last week, and the Government agreed with him."




Ahern is a great man for side stepping controversies like this leaving his ministers to pick up the pieces and no doubt he'll distance himself from it when asked. Surprised MM is so vehemently behind the government. I suppose a senior minister in Cork couldn't be seen to be disagreeing with his Dublin overlords.

[cartoon]

How local policy is run in Cork:
http://www.village.ie/sample/sample/controversial_rezoni ngs_in_cork/


Excellent link and article.

from the Village article: "Asked did he recognise the potential conflict of interest involved in supporting the rezoning of lands as a member of the county council and then selling the houses built on them as an auctioneer, Ahern (a brother of junior minister, Michael Ahern) said: "What is a conflict of interest? I have supported the re-zoning of other lands and have no role in sales afterwards. In this case the land was zoned and later I was appointed by Castlelands to sell the houses."

Is it me or are the last two sentences completely contradicting each other?

"Ahern pointed out that there were eight or nine elected members of Cork County Council who are also professional auctioneers. "There are other lands in east Cork where auctioneers who are councillors are involved in sales."

I wonder what a trawl of votes and former clients would drag up before the election.

[Echoboy]

Where is the main office for FF in Cork?

[doppellanger]

Is it me or are the last two sentences completely contradicting each other?


Technically, or tautologically, no.

He is saying he sometimes supported rezoning of lands without being involved in sales afterward.

[bosco]

This is a banana republic (with turnips instead of bananas).

Quote of the year so far in my eyes, maith an fear!

[jungle]

Government-party members in Cork cry out at how unfair and unjust it is for Cork to be given such a debt at the infancy of the airport. Despite all their bellowing, I do not see them putting actions into words and calling for an abolition of the debt and the resignation of Minister for Transport Martin Cullen.

I think that's a pretty perfect expression of what muppets like Noel O'Flynn and John Minihan are trying to get up to.

[Roman Abramovich]

youd want to have heard ned o keefe on the radio about it.
fuckin wankstain. let him know it too.

[Actin The Sham]

Bertie is in Cork tomorrow. He is going to meet Cork City and County Councils about this.

But he is going to allocate TEN MINUTES for the meeting. That is how seriously he takes this issue.

[Roman Abramovich]

hes coming down for jbbarrys official opening.
not to discuss terminals.

[Sound]

But will it make any difference at the polls in Cork?

Will it fuck!

[jungle]

But will it make any difference at the polls in Cork?

Will it fuck!

Not at all

They know they've lost the seat in North Central because of the boundary changes and they've pretty much written off South Central now that Batt O'Keeffe has changed constituency.

Only Cork South-West is in any way marginal in the next election.

[Roman Abramovich]

Not at all

They know they've lost the seat in North Central because of the boundary changes and they've pretty much written off South Central now that Batt O'Keeffe has changed constituency.

Only Cork South-West is in any way marginal in the next election.

personally i dont vote for parties but i wont mind if fianna fail get 4 more. they have done allright since elected. sure things are shitty for some but in a whole the dark days of the 80's dont even exist in my vocab.
The only time ive seen mass unemployment and hardtimes etc was on reeling back the years. And bare in mind, they have also had to find jobs for all the poles, nigerians, romanians etc.

a lot done, a hell of a lot more to do. but i sure as shit would prefer to ride the wave with them rather than fianna gail. theyll put us into a recession.

[jungle]

a lot done, a hell of a lot more to do. but i sure as shit would prefer to ride the wave with them rather than fianna gail. theyll put us into a recession.

Surely, it was the excessive borrowing during the Lynch administration that set us into a recession?

[Roman Abramovich]

Surely, it was the excessive borrowing during the Lynch administration that set us into a recession?

i dont ever look back. i only deal with politics from once i came of age. And to be honest in that time fianna fail have done only good for me. Im not their fans but as a country weve done ok.

[jungle]

i dont ever look back. i only deal with politics from once i came of age. And to be honest in that time fianna fail have done only good for me. Im not their fans but as a country weve done ok.

Unfortunately, that's exactly the attitude that means that Cork gets ignored and all the country's money is poured into the marginal constituencies in the suburbs of Dublin.

[Roman Abramovich]

Unfortunately, that's exactly the attitude that means that Cork gets ignored and all the country's money is poured into the marginal constituencies in the suburbs of Dublin.

and when you think of it rightly so.
cork isnt a poor mans country either like.
i mean dublin is nearly 5 times bigger people wise in a quarter of the space.
if you take city v city of course the subs of dub should get more than cork should.
If they stopped up there and pumped money in down here then imagine how worse things would get up there. They have the room for infastructure, we really dont. They have the population to sustain concert venues etc.

ffs elton john had to be cancelled in cork because of lack of interest. In my opinion dublin is nearly maxed out. as soon as the motorway from cork to dublin is in place i could see them concentrating down here.

[jungle]

I can't even begin to agree with you on that.

If nothing else, one of the reasons Dublin is in the state its in is because it hasn't been able to handle the increase in population it has seen in the last 20 years. That's an increase that wouldn't have been as dramatic with a proper national spatial strategy.

Also, properly investing in Cork, Galway and Limerick now would prevent these cities from experiencing Dublin's current problems. One of the big issues in Dublin is that it is so expensive to retrospectively add required infrastructure. Proper investment in the regional cities now will mean money saved in the future.

Finally, the concept of increased spending in the rich areas of a country is fundamentally wrong. Taking from the poor and giving to the rich - that's no way to run a country.

[Sound]

We are doing OK but shouldn't we want a government that's better than OK?

[Roman Abramovich]

I can't even begin to agree with you on that.

If nothing else, one of the reasons Dublin is in the state its in is because it hasn't been able to handle the increase in population it has seen in the last 20 years. That's an increase that wouldn't have been as dramatic with a proper national spatial strategy.

Also, properly investing in Cork, Galway and Limerick now would prevent these cities from experiencing Dublin's current problems. One of the big issues in Dublin is that it is so expensive to retrospectively add required infrastructure. Proper investment in the regional cities now will mean money saved in the future.

Finally, the concept of increased spending in the rich areas of a country is fundamentally wrong. Taking from the poor and giving to the rich - that's no way to run a country.

so cork is poor? bollox!!
You cant, shouldnt build motorways until they are actually viable. The same with dublin. Look at the tole bridge. It was sold on the understanding twould be used by 10,000 daily, now its a 100,000. Look at the tunnel here. Look at how many more use it now.

Dublin was always going to be the driving force behind this country. I gurantee when you add all the money taxed and made in dublin and given back into dublin its not as bad as you make out. look at the stamp alone over the last 20 years the gov have taken from the property there.

Dublin isnt in that much of a state. Sure the infastructure around cant handle the volumes of traffic. But in the morning for the benifit of the country wether it was a choice between a huge underground network in dublin or a few bypasses and north ring road in cork id take the first. Its all about necessity. The more necassary it is the faster it should be got.

Right now the most important thing we need in cork is a direct road to dublin. Then a proper public transport system and i think the youghal/mallow light rail lines will go along way to helping that. The trendy docklands will go along way to improving the city even further. But where really could you improve infastructures in cork for motorists etc? sarsfield and bandon flyovers and a northlink from collig to mallow and onto dublin road. after that really where would you see new roads needed?

I think we need better pub transport like in dublin are a must but seeing how limited the space in our streets are and a luas type being a disaster space wise also an underground system would be the only realistic get the cars off our streets systems......

and is that gona happen before dublin get one? no.
should it? no.

its not like sim city where you can reload from a point and try a different method. The country went through a huge boom in the last 15 years. huge. Who would have predicted 15 years ago two cars per house were a necessaity...

we could argue this till the cows come home. fact is dublin has the population to make anything profitable. I mean fuckit their airport can even cover ours.

[Roman Abramovich]

We are doing OK but shouldn't we want a government that's better than OK?

we should.......but until they come along then why take the chance. gailers think the answer to everything is by going back, go back to the buses, go back to the affordable house, go back to low costs (including wages).
fuck that...

im living the dream.
white picket fences are a must.

[jungle]

so cork is poor? bollox!!

Cork is pretty much on the national average, but the receives far less than its share of national spending. The amount spent per capita on non-national roads in the country is around half the national average. Transport 21 managed to re-announce the Midleton railway line, but what else did it do for Cork? It failed to even provide funding to replace the city's bus fleet.

I gurantee when you add all the money taxed and made in dublin and given back into dublin its not as bad as you make out. look at the stamp alone over the last 20 years the gov have taken from the property there.

It's a pretty impossible task to work out where tax has been raised. A lot of corporations are based in Dublin, but pay their tax on earnings nationwide. An appeal to the level of stamp duty is circular reasoning because this will be increased by excess government spending in Dublin.



Dublin isnt in that much of a state. Sure the infastructure around cant handle the volumes of traffic. But in the morning for the benifit of the country wether it was a choice between a huge underground network in dublin or a few bypasses and north ring road in cork id take the first. Its all about necessity. The more necassary it is the faster it should be got.

I don't have a problem, per se, with expenditure in Dublin, but it should be proportional to Dublin's share of the country's population. If the government spent our money better, there should be enough to go around. How much was wasted on the voting machines?

Another example is the Dublin Airport Metro. Why is that being built when IrishRail had a perfectly good plan to put a spur off the Dart line at Portmarnock that would have cost 1/5 of the amount. Save that money, build 50km of extra LUAS in Dublin and you still have money to spare. What's more, you'd still get the Interconnector tunnel and you'd be able to get to Dublin Airport from any InterCity station in Ireland with a single change at Heuston. They've fucked it up big time and are wasting billions of our money in the process


But where really could you improve infastructures in cork for motorists etc? sarsfield and bandon flyovers and a northlink from collig to mallow and onto dublin road. after that really where would you see new roads needed?

The roads to West Cork from the city are a disaster. The standard of non-national roads in the county is apalling. Many of the national primary routes are unsafe. If you want a new road, I would build a new national secondary road that went Mallow-Macroom-Bantry.

Incidentally, take a look at the route map of national roads and you'll see that there are far fewer in the South-West than any other part of the country. This makes the non-national road funding even more of a scandal.


Who would have predicted 15 years ago two cars per house were a necessaity...

Aside from people who live in the country, it shouldn't be. That it is a necessity is a massive indictment of the standard of public transport.



The fact is that the government has shown no will to improve things in Cork. Give Cork its own bus company like Dublin Bus. It's clear that nobody in Bus Eireann has bought a new map of Cork since 1965. That's a simple administrative change, but the government just don't care because there are so many foolahs who will always vote Fianna Fail (or Fine Gael for that matter) just because their family always has.

One more thing... If Cork isn't getting a raw deal from the government, how come it doesn't have night buses, when Sligo does?

[dishwap]

An appeal to the level of stamp duty is circular reasoning because this will be increased by excess government spending in Dublin.Explain, please?I don't have a problem, per se, with expenditure in Dublin, but it should be proportional to Dublin's share of the country's population.Be careful what you wish for.

[jungle]

Explain, please?

If the government invests in large scale engineering projects in the Greater Dublin area, it requires a large number of well-paid engineers and construction workers. Their salaries fuel house price inflation leading to an increase in the amount of stamp duty take.

[dishwap]

If the government invests in large scale engineering projects in the Greater Dublin area, it requires a large number of well-paid engineers and construction workers. Their salaries fuel house price inflation leading to an increase in the amount of stamp duty take.Fine in theory, but I take it you are not seriously suggesting that this actually explains the reality of house price increases in Dublin.One more thing... If Cork isn't getting a raw deal from the government, how come it doesn't have night buses, when Sligo does?You know, if you dropped the whole Dublin fetish you might actually start seeing what the issue is.

[jungle]

You know, if you dropped the whole Dublin fetish you might actually start seeing what the issue is.

I don't have a Dublin fetish. I'm arguing for more equitable treatment for Cork. It was Mr Abramovich who pushed it into a Dublin v Cork debate. The fact that I raised the point about Sligo shows that I'm not just looking at Dublin. <aking a comparison between what Cork gets for non-national roads and what the average county gets doesn't demonstrate a Dublin fetish.

What do you think the real issue is? An ineffactual cabinet minister from Cork? Local councillors who put their political ambitions and their ties to developers ahead of the welfare of the people they represent?

[Tube a Pringles]

It's not really a Dublin vs Cork debate, but unfortunately the Transport 21 proposal makes it so. How can a government advocate a de-centralisation policy within it's own civil service departments while at the same time building yellow brick roads to Dublin?

The CAA by the way rejected the governments 100 million proposal last night by the way. Nicely timed to keep the issue hot for Bertie's visit today.

[mrbobdobalina]

Anyone hear the tool on Pat Kenny there a half hour ago? He was saying that he flew into Cork airport and drove in to the city on a vastly superior road to the one from Dublin airport in to Dublin city.

Er, hello? It's a normal 2 lane road in as far as the kinsale road roundabout. Last time I checked there was a motorway coming out of Dublin airport. Just because it is clogged with traffic doesn't mean that Cork has a better road - it just means there is no one on our 2 lane road because no one is using the airport.

Then he proceeded to make a joke about Cork people compaining they don't benefit from the celtic tiger and he and Pat Kenny laughed.

Come down here and laugh ye fuckers!!

[dishwap]

What do you think the real issue is? An ineffactual cabinet minister from Cork? Local councillors who put their political ambitions and their ties to developers ahead of the welfare of the people they represent?Ultimately , the problem has its roots in the factors that block an approach to national development based on cities. Some of those factors might be described as political and cultural.

The airports issue is a perfect illustration. Anyone suggesting that Dublin Airport is astonishingly lavish for the numbers that use it is simply bizarrely out of touch with reality. Also, there’s absolutely no reason for Dublin to turn business away – the point is to create another centre which replicates the ability to generate wealth at the same scale. Business lost to Dublin is business lost to Ireland, not gained by Tobercurry. We ignored this when framing the ludicrous Shannon Stopover policy, which handed business on a plate to Manchester.

The question is not why there is investment in Dublin. The question, as illustrated by your Sligo point, is why we see €86 million scattered about 6 regional airports which, combined, only carry about a third of the number of passengers in Cork and can only make a negligible contribution to regional development. Pro rata on the basis of passenger numbers, that €86 million would be the equivalent of a handout of over €200 million to Cork or heading on for €2 billion for Dublin. A debt-free Cork airport would surely make more of an impact in promoting the emergence of a centre of scale outside Dublin.

This kind of logic seems quite obvious to me, but rarely seems to capture the public imagination. Regional development debate is almost surreal – as in the way the proposed investment in Dublin Airport is talked of at times as if the money was being raised by taxing farmers in Mayo instead of by charging the people using the facility.

What’s the alternative? I don't know. The political appetite just isn’t there to deal with it and, as evidenced by a review of this thread, many people fall back into that comfort zone of banging on about Dublin instead of banging on about the simple need to promote scale in a few regional centres, and the proven uselessness of any other approach.

[doppellanger]

Er, hello? It's a normal 2 lane road in as far as the kinsale road roundabout.

Not quite. It has a cycling lane.

As has Killbeheny.

Vote FF.

:lol:

[Jim Comic]

the shite bertie was coming out with today beggars belief

"i said what i said" what the fook does that mean?????


FF out.... NOW!

[Jim Comic]

It's not really a Dublin vs Cork debate, but unfortunately the Transport 21 proposal makes it so. How can a government advocate a de-centralisation policy within it's own civil service departments while at the same time building yellow brick roads to Dublin?

The CAA by the way rejected the governments 100 million proposal last night by the way. Nicely timed to keep the issue hot for Bertie's visit today.



the entire caa should resign, and let bertie and his troupe of liars sort out the mess

[markinmanc]

the shite bertie was coming out with today beggars belief

"i said what i said" what the fook does that mean?????


FF out.... NOW!


Don't forget that comment about welcoming the CAA decision - WTF?!

Taking the people of Cork for mugs - with an election so close, he must obviosuly have a plan to win seats elsewhere.
And will easily hold on to their present seats?

Is the anger on here representative of Cork People in general, or are most worried about going to BTs tomorrow?

[jungle]

I've mentioned this before, but Cork has only one truly marginal seat and that is in Cork South-West. With the boundary changes, the seat in North Central is gone and he knows that the South Central seat is gone now that Batt O'Keefe has changed constituency. If FF lose a seat in Cork North-West or Cork East, they are on to a nationwide disaster that would see them out of government anyway.

100 million is a lot to pay for a single seat.

[corkoniense]

I've mentioned this before, but Cork has only one truly marginal seat and that is in Cork South-West. With the boundary changes, the seat in North Central is gone and he knows that the South Central seat is gone now that Batt O'Keefe has changed constituency. If FF lose a seat in Cork North-West or Cork East, they are on to a nationwide disaster that would see them out of government anyway.

100 million is a lot to pay for a single seat.


There are more marginal seats than that. Granted cork south west is one cos its traditionally 2FG and 1FF till that was reversed in the FG meltdown in 2002. I know there's a boundary change, but FF gained in Cork north west in 2002 at the expense of michael creed FG, and gained a seat in Cork east at the expense of Paul Bradford FG. These are decent enough pols who'll probably get their seats back(unlike the FG candidates in Cork City: Deirdre Clune WTF?).

also in Cork south central john dennehy held on to his seat by three votes in 2002(following a dodgy recount in which Mafia Don Mickey Martin exerted a lot of pressure in his own backyard). Dennehy is a former union official at state owned irish steeel, and a member of a party that would privatise water services if it could get away with it......I just can't see working class cork people being that stupid...at least all of the time! I think labour's ciaran lynch is running, althoug i could be wrong there.

finally, there are 20 TDs in cork, 12 of whom are FF. this is higher than any other county in the country. there's only so many times the cork people can fall for "straight talkers" like noel o'flynn....bash the darkies, hang the paedo judges etc...spoke to an FF guy in cork north central who said the party is headin for a hiding in that constituency......th at was before the cork airport shambles.......

On the other hand, if FF return with a one or two seat loss in the whole county, then the people of cork deserve to get fucked....we'll probably be the junior partner in the "southwest" region, whatever that is...come to think of it, killarney is the de facto capital of the southwest these days :roll:

[corkoniense]

Ultimately, the problem has its roots in the factors that block an approach to national development based on cities. Some of those factors might be described as political and cultural.

The airports issue is a perfect illustration. Anyone suggesting that Dublin Airport is astonishingly lavish for the numbers that use it is simply bizarrely out of touch with reality. Also, there’s absolutely no reason for Dublin to turn business away – the point is to create another centre which replicates the ability to generate wealth at the same scale. Business lost to Dublin is business lost to Ireland, not gained by Tobercurry. We ignored this when framing the ludicrous Shannon Stopover policy, which handed business on a plate to Manchester.

The question is not why there is investment in Dublin. The question, as illustrated by your Sligo point, is why we see €86 million scattered about 6 regional airports which, combined, only carry about a third of the number of passengers in Cork and can only make a negligible contribution to regional development. Pro rata on the basis of passenger numbers, that €86 million would be the equivalent of a handout of over €200 million to Cork or heading on for €2 billion for Dublin. A debt-free Cork airport would surely make more of an impact in promoting the emergence of a centre of scale outside Dublin.

This kind of logic seems quite obvious to me, but rarely seems to capture the public imagination. Regional development debate is almost surreal – as in the way the proposed investment in Dublin Airport is talked of at times as if the money was being raised by taxing farmers in Mayo instead of by charging the people using the facility.

What’s the alternative? I don't know. The political appetite just isn’t there to deal with it and, as evidenced by a review of this thread, many people fall back into that comfort zone of banging on about Dublin instead of banging on about the simple need to promote scale in a few regional centres, and the proven uselessness of any other approach.

an absolutey spot-on post.

This is emphatically not a cork-dublin thing. although, it is unfortunate that sneering dubs such as pat kenny think its a laugh that the "corkies" (who dey?) are having a hissy fit. The reality is that dublin and cork both have their fair share of thick chauvinists.

The biggest hindrances to the development of the metropolitan cork region is the desire of the weak willed politicos to please everybody in the audience. therefore, i submit that the biggest obstacles to cork's development is Shannon airport, which should have been put in Galway as the major state airport in the biggest city in Connaught, and Kerry/Waterford, which are private airports lolling up state grants to subsidise their operations.

The unfortunate reality is that politicians and media divide up the State into two de facto regions: Dublin and "down the country". This suits the property owning class and business in dublin(such people can be from anywhere, most of the dubs aren't even living in the city anymore!), and it suits country folk from smaller counties who see politics as a matter of county pride.No votes in Roscommon to prioritise Galway City!

Hence, the western rail corridor, instead of being an effort to connect up first and foremost the cities and large towns of Derry, Sligo, Galway, Ennis, Limerick and Cork, is an effective rail to nowhere is which small towns in Mayo/Galway are to be connected first, with no possibility of viability until those bigger cities and towns are connected.

The alternative, dishwap, is to elect politicians in cork who have the backbone to see that their city is one of the few remaining hopes for balanced regional development and that it should be seen as the major centre in Munster, which it is. Cork is the biggest city in the province, not just in county cork! FF cannot do that as it is the most top-down political party in western europe, where all internal dissent is stifled. FG will find it difficult to do so, although it would rarely be as pathetic.

I know I'm going out on a limb here, but I think the greens, as the minor party in a rainbow govt, could effect change. love them or loathe them, the privatisation/liberalisation of many of our utilities would never have happened without the PDs, who believe fervently in such nonsense. In power, the greens could effect change in regional policy, as it is a core part of any strategy for a truly sustainable country.

Rant finally over.

[jungle]

There are more marginal seats than that. Granted cork south west is one cos its traditionally 2FG and 1FF till that was reversed in the FG meltdown in 2002. I know there's a boundary change, but FF gained in Cork north west in 2002 at the expense of michael creed FG, and gained a seat in Cork east at the expense of Paul Bradford FG. These are decent enough pols who'll probably get their seats back(unlike the FG candidates in Cork City: Deirdre Clune WTF?).

The boundary changes have pretty much ruled out a change of line-up in North-West. Batt O'Keeffe will take a seat and then one of the sitting FF TDs along with one of the FG candidates. It would take a national meltdown for FF to lose the second seat in the constituency. Similarly, in Cork East, FF have had 2 seats since the 1987 election (It was actually Labour who gained Paul Bradford's seat). Michael Aherne isn't going to get it easy, but should retain his seat barring a national disaster.

That said, a national disaster isn't out of the question. Supposedly, the Irish Times have plenty of ammo for use on Bertie in the run up to the election. They're furious over the way their editor etc. were treated over Bertiegate and are determined to sink him.

Incidentally, Deirdre Clune isn't a natural politician, but she actually has decent potential for a junior ministerial position.

also in Cork south central john dennehy held on to his seat by three votes in 2002(following a dodgy recount in which Mafia Don Mickey Martin exerted a lot of pressure in his own backyard). Dennehy is a former union official at state owned irish steeel, and a member of a party that would privatise water services if it could get away with it......I just can't see working class cork people being that stupid...at least all of the time! I think labour's ciaran lynch is running, althoug i could be wrong there.

FF will lose a seat in South Central. They've already conceded it, which is why they aren't trying too hard to defend it.

However, the constituency line-up isn't certain. Martin and Boyle will retain their seats. A second Fianna Fail candidate will get in, but I have a gut feeling that it will be Michael McGrath, rather than John Dennehy. Similarly, at least one FG candidate will be returned. Although Coveney looks like the strongest, there might be enough people pissed off over the dual mandate to hurt him. Michael McGrath might also take some of his Carrigaline votes off him.

The last seat would be totally up for grabs between a second FG TD, Ciaran Lynch or a strong independent.
finally, there are 20 TDs in cork, 12 of whom are FF. this is higher than any other county in the country. there's only so many times the cork people can fall for "straight talkers" like noel o'flynn....bash the darkies, hang the paedo judges etc...spoke to an FF guy in cork north central who said the party is headin for a hiding in that constituency......th at was before the cork airport shambles.......

North Central has the potential to be interesting. Although the perceived logic is that the boundary changes just mean a single FF loss, there is a possibility that they will go straight to a single seat. A lot of Danny Wallace's votes were personal rather than party votes and the two other sitting TDs haven't exactly covered themselves in glory.

Add to the mix that Mick Barry and Chris O'Leary have been getting relatively high profiles and that Sinn Fein will poll decently and the last seat could be very marginal. However, I don't think FF have copped this at central level yet, so the possibility isn't being taken seriously.

My feeling is that FF have just enough votes to retain the seat, but a lot will depend on how Barry, O'Leary and O'Brien poll in relation to each other. When the second FG candidate is eliminated, the votes could transfer to the Greens, but a transfer to the Socialists or SF isn't so likely. If O'Leary can out-poll the 2nd FG candidate and be within spitting distance of the other two, he could just sneak that last seat.

On the other hand, if FF return with a one or two seat loss in the whole county, then the people of cork deserve to get fucked....we'll probably be the junior partner in the "southwest" region, whatever that is...come to think of it, killarney is the de facto capital of the southwest these days :roll:

If the election was held today, this would be my prediction for the Cork constituencies:-

Cork E: FF2 FG2
Cork NC: FF2 FG1 Lab1
Cork NW: FF2 FG1
Cork SC: FF2 FG2 Gr1
Cork SW: FG2 FF1

I suppose 9 out of 19 would be an improvement on 12 out of 20.

[bilbaofeen]

yes, this issue is of the most precious concern, I mean people who can well afford to fly (and I include myself in that group) may have to pay a few euro extra, this is such a pressing issue.

I mean the Govt. has failed to keep its promise on this issue and Sentaor Minihane is outraged, i mean lets forget about not keeping promises in relation to minor matters like health, increased Garda numbers, tackling child poverty, increased educational investment, but this!!! You really can only keep ur mouth shut for so long on an issue of such national and regional importance like Cork airport-

I am so happy that the local and national media are giving such an important issue so much more coverage than it deserves!

Isnt is nice to see John Minihane finally fighting for the little man, now as long as ur not a single mother, John is the man for you! Vote Minihane No. 1

[jungle]

When you live on an island, airport access is a massive issue. It has a huge impact on our ability to attract employers into the region. This is especially true of employers who could bring in higher paying jobs in service industries. We've priced ourselves out of the market for all except extremely specialist manufacturing jobs, so we don't want to handicap the region w.r.t. other employment possibilities.

I can easily give my own example for this. The limited connections out of Cork Airport prevent me from doing business anywhere apart from the UK and the Low Countries. It's not that the work doesn't exist elsewhere, but poor access makes it unviable.

I suppose if everyone had to move elsewhere to get the jobs that they wanted, it could solve the issue of the level of Garda, health and educational resources.

[bilbaofeen]

When you live on an island, airport access is a massive issue. It has a huge impact on our ability to attract employers into the region. This is especially true of employers who could bring in higher paying jobs in service industries. We've priced ourselves out of the market for all except extremely specialist manufacturing jobs, so we don't want to handicap the region w.r.t. other employment possibilities.

I can easily give my own example for this. The limited connections out of Cork Airport prevent me from doing business anywhere apart from the UK and the Low Countries. It's not that the work doesn't exist elsewhere, but poor access makes it unviable.

I suppose if everyone had to move elsewhere to get the jobs that they wanted, it could solve the issue of the level of Garda, health and educational resources.

its an issue yes, but its not the most pressing issue of the day, i dont think Cork is gonna lose hundreds of jobs because of this issue, yes it would be nice if it didnt have the debt. just think people are making a mountain out of something that isnt that big an issue

We had more connections a few years ago with jetmagic and number of other airlines, why did this fail-because there simply was not enough passangers who wanted these routes, nobody ever suggested that landing charges alone, jetmagic cited the business community in particular for failing to utilise its services, if the demand was there so too would the services, demand isnt there hence no services

[jungle]

Jetmagic failed for many reasons. They chose poor aircraft for the routes they wanted to offer. They chose poor routes. First and foremost, they failed because they were undercapitalised. Having spoken to someone who spent 10 years at management level in a flag carrier, he estimated that for what they were trying to do they should have started with E20 million in capital. In fact, they started with 4 million.

Quite honestly, I think the jobs it would cost the region would easily run into the hundreds if not more. If I could see daily services to Frankfurt in particular, but also other important business destinations we could have jobs for another 30 people. These would all be people earning 60K+ who would support plenty of local retail jobs etc. I'm sure we aren't the only company in this situation.

Also, additional inbound passengers would support plenty of hotel and leisure industry jobs.

Currently, the only destinations with business-friendly schedules out of Cork are London, Dublin, Edinburgh, Belfast and Amsterdam. Without the ability to offer incentives to airlines, that list is unlikely to grow.

[Ciotóg]

an absolutey spot-on post.

This is emphatically not a cork-dublin thing. although, it is unfortunate that sneering dubs such as pat kenny think its a laugh that the "corkies" (who dey?) are having a hissy fit. The reality is that dublin and cork both have their fair share of thick chauvinists.

On a matter only barely connected to the thread, I find it amusing that RTÉ have on their regular bulletins, news and "regional news". The latter is news from "the regions", whatever they are. These "regions" don't seem to include Dublin for some reason. I thought RTÉ were a national broadcaster, providing a service to the entire country. Instead, they give some national news, generally occuring only in Dublin, and afterwards they sometimes deign to give a few trivial, quaint stories from remote places like Cork and Tubbercurry, usually involving local authorities and pelican crossings.

I wonder do their bosses, the government, have the same way of thinking.

[corkoniense]

Jungle dude,

respect. you really know your numbers in cork. i knew that cork nc was losing a seat, i didnt realise that cork nw was not gaining a seat. that's one less to bat for cork in the dail. i suppose it doesnt matter when the quality of your avge cork politico is scrapin the bottom of the barrel.

other thing,
how do you maintain such a jet setting business and manage to post 14,000 times on this site?? i always thought those who posted +1,000 were UCC computer centre geeks........guess i was wrong!

[Some user]

I am so happy that the local and national media are giving such an important issue so much more coverage than it deserves!



Its important they do this in an election year because like many of the issues you mentioned it might prevent politicians from simply reversing promises they made. In otherwords it makes it harder for them to lie.

[jungle]

how do you maintain such a jet setting business and manage to post 14,000 times on this site??

I have busy days, like yesterday when I don't post at all. I have other days when I have little to do and I can easily put up 50+ posts. Today is about to turn shitty.

[Poc Fada]

Did Ahern have a meeting with the airport authority recently? I was expecting to hear an update either way but I haven't. Anyone know of any "developments"?

[Frosty]

Did Ahern have a meeting with the airport authority recently? I was expecting to hear an update either way but I haven't. Anyone know of any "developments"?
No, Bertie knows nothing about money, remember? Only signs blank cheques...

[markinmanc]

So .. direct flights to New York and Boston from Knock, no mention of even the reduced debt for Cork Airport being acceptable to the FF liars,

Exeunt Cork Airport, stage left, persued by other regional airport pissing themselves laughing.

[Cork]

Was spending millions on Cork Airport value for money?

If it was - surely spending vast amounts of money on a facility would generate extra profits.

What we see in Cork Airport is a sort of sad public sector mentality - Why should the taxpayer pay for it.

Many Cork people travel to Shannon for flights.

Flights are not even available from Cork.

Why are airlines not bothering with Cork airport?

It is no wonder commuters avoid the place as well.

[miahp]

Was spending millions on Cork Airport value for money?

If it was - surely spending vast amounts of money on a facility would generate extra profits.

What we see in Cork Airport is a sort of sad public sector mentality - Why should the taxpayer pay for it.

Many Cork people travel to Shannon for flights.

Flights are not even available from Cork.

Why are airlines not bothering with Cork airport?

It is no wonder commuters avoid the place as well.

Someone is using it alright ; over 3m. last year compared with 2.7m. the previous year.

[Cork]

This project should have been value for money and then financing of it should have been sorted before it was built.

There is no way that taxpayers money should now be squandered on it.

Sell it off & we might see some major airlines using the thing.

Too many Cork People are going to Shannon and Dublin for flights anyway.

[starchaser]

i've noticed myself , from over here in the UK, that the price for flights to and from Cork have gotten way more expensive over the past year. i've noticed it since Easyjet pulled out.

its not looking good for Cork airport, when i'm finding it cheaper to fly to Dublin and then get a train down to Cork...

[markinmanc]

This project should have been value for money and then financing of it should have been sorted before it was built.

There is no way that taxpayers money should now be squandered on it.

Sell it off & we might see some major airlines using the thing.

Too many Cork People are going to Shannon and Dublin for flights anyway.

Rather unfair - those behind the new terminal were assured the costof the development would not be passed on to an independent Cork Airport. However it will be, rendring it unviable in all likelhood. I guess jungle would be able to give a more accurate appraisal.
It's a fabulous looking facility, something some utilitarian could have been built, at much less cost as well.

i've noticed myself , from over here in the UK, that the price for flights to and from Cork have gotten way more expensive over the past year. i've noticed it since Easyjet pulled out.

its not looking good for Cork airport, when i'm finding it cheaper to fly to Dublin and then get a train down to Cork...

True - flights from Manc are heading the same way - costs about twice as much as it did this time last year.


The airport could turn into a white elephant.

[Cork]

The airport could turn into a white elephant.

If you can get flights cheaper from Dublin or Shannon - people are 100% right not to bother with Cork Airport.

There is a far better choice of flights from Shannon.

Having a new terminal is useless - If flights are not available from there.

[markinmanc]

If you can get flights cheaper from Dublin or Shannon - people are 100% right not to bother with Cork Airport.

There is a far better choice of flights from Shannon.

Having a new terminal is useless - If flights are not available from there.


And you intentionally missing the point? Why aren't flights availiable - because it's treated differently to other regional airports imho, also for some reason the airport has (afaik) never been ungraded to facilitate long haul flights.

Doe Knock Airport really have a greater catchment area for flights to the U.S.?

[jungle]

If you can get flights cheaper from Dublin or Shannon - people are 100% right not to bother with Cork Airport.

Remember the costs involved in getting to either airport though. You can add E40 onto your journey from Shannon by the time you've taken into account petrol and parking. It's even more for Dublin.

There is a far better choice of flights from Shannon.

There are far more destinations available from Cork than Shannon and that's before Shannon loses a batch with the ending of the stopover.


Rather unfair - those behind the new terminal were assured the costof the development would not be passed on to an independent Cork Airport. However it will be, rendring it unviable in all likelhood. I guess jungle would be able to give a more accurate appraisal.
It's a fabulous looking facility, something some utilitarian could have been built, at much less cost as well.

The major benefit is that it can handle more passengers. It's just not as crowded during peak hours. There are other benefits too. You don't have to queue in the rain for immigration for example!

The problem with the old terminal was that it couldn't handle the numbers any more. Anyone who arrived into it between 8pm and 10 pm on a Friday night or left between 6 am and 8am on a Monday morning will know how painful it could get. With passenger numbers increasing, it would have been a problem outside those peak hours.

I know a lot of people have complaints about it. I keep hearing about the lack of seats, but that was deliberate. It encourages people to go through security earlier. This is pretty common worldwide.

As regards the cost, it's also forgotten that the money wasn't just for the terminal. There were new access roads, apron space etc. Comparing it with the terminal upgrade in Hahn is not comparing like with like. Besides, the new terminal is designed for twice the number of passengers.

I agree that the airport should be sold off though. If Dublin retained the debt and Cork was sold off to pay it down, it would be the best solution. When the DAA own Cork and Shannon, the incentive is not there to compete with Dublin or each other. Also, I don't think it's healthy for the country to have one company controlling the airports that handle around 97% of airline passengers in and out of the country.

[markinmanc]

Jungle as ever gets it clear and concise .. heh heh.

I suspect that with an FF govt Cor Airport will get the worst of both worlds - a massive/unsustainable debt and be sold off, no doubt with various caveats to minimse competition against airports in more volatile FF supporting areas. Cynical of me I know, but selling off the airport will primarily be a political not an economic act.

It certainly is a more pleasant place to travel to/from. As long as it's open. Knock, Shannon, Farranfore, Waterford, Galway do not seem to have as many doubts about their future.

[Cork]

It certainly is a more pleasant place to travel to/from. As long as it's open. Knock, Shannon, Farranfore, Waterford, Galway do not seem to have as many doubts about their future.

Every private sector company has doubts hanging over its future.

If Cork Airport is flogged off - so what?

Cork will survive.

Cork airport workers and management may have to get used of working in the private sector.

Best of all - the Irish taxpayer will not have to pick up the tab for building the terminal.

[markinmanc]

Every private sector company has doubts hanging over its future.

If Cork Airport is flogged off - so what?

Cork will survive.

Cork airport workers and management may have to get used of working in the private sector.

Best of all - the Irish taxpayer will not have to pick up the tab for building the terminal.

Because it won't be truely privatised - it'll be hamstrung as as not to compete against other airports.

FFS, why can't Cork manage flights to the U.S?

Irish taxpayers will pay for it, though landing taxes.

I assume you're one of the FF Tories, judging by the tone of your post.

[Cork]

Privately owned airports are common place across the EU.

Cork Airport has a large debt at the moment. This never should have happened.

If the new terminal was not financially viable in the first place - why build it?

If it needs to be sold off to clear debt - so what.

The state should put money into health, education etc before throwing money at Cork airport.

[markinmanc]

Privately owned airports are common place across the EU.

Cork Airport has a large debt at the moment. This never should have happened.

If the new terminal was not financially viable in the first place - why build it?

If it needs to be sold off to clear debt - so what.

The state should put money into health, education etc before throwing money at Cork airport.


The airport is vaible under the plan the govt reneged from.

[Cork]

The airport is vaible under the plan the govt reneged from.

I hope the government does not waste more taxpayers money on Cork Airport.

Fair play to the Government for flogging off Aer Lingus. State monopolies in aviation simply do not work.

If Michaael O Leary took over Cork Airport - he could make optimum use of the facility.

Cork Airport could be turned into a hub for Ryanair.

People from the region would benefit and it would not cost the taxpayer one red cent.

[Actin The Sham]

Noel Dempsey, the new minister for transport just said there in the Dáil that the policy on the debt issue at Cork Airport "won't change," and "he doesn't know how long it will take for that message to get through."

He "will make an announcement next month."

[markinmanc]

Noel Dempsey, the new minister for transport just said there in the Dáil that the policy on the debt issue at Cork Airport "won't change," and "he doesn't know how long it will take for that message to get through."

He "will make an announcement next month."


Why won't those pesky Cork people accept they've been shafted.

[Actin The Sham]

Why won't those pesky Cork people accept they've been shafted.

Or shafted themselves?

In light of the blocking of the Ryanair takeover of Aer Lingus, we can only hope that there will be more flights out of Cork as a result: either Ryanair trying to grind Aer Lingus into the ground, or Aer Lingus using Cork to take on Ryanairs routes out of Shannon.

[jungle]

Or shafted themselves?

Come on.

We had 12 Fianna Fail deputies before the election and it did us bugger-all good.

One of the Fine Gael or Labour deputies should propose a motion of no-confidence in the Transport Minister to put pressure on the weasels like O'Flynn and McGrath who spoke out of both sides of their mouth. Let's see how they vote...

Failing that, how about a return of the rebel spirit and burning down the tax office. I could agree to that in so many ways :D

[markinmanc]

Or shafted themselves?

In light of the blocking of the Ryanair takeover of Aer Lingus, we can only hope that there will be more flights out of Cork as a result: either Ryanair trying to grind Aer Lingus into the ground, or Aer Lingus using Cork to take on Ryanairs routes out of Shannon.


Won't a subsidised Shannon always be able to undercut a debt ridden Cork?

[Actin The Sham]

Won't a subsidised Shannon always be able to undercut a debt ridden Cork?

It's big disadvantage though is that it is in Shannon.

Maybe somebody could take this to the European Court and make Shannon, (and more importantly Waterford) pay back the government funding they have received, using the Charleroi case as a precedent?

[vampiricchicken]

It won't make shit differnece to Cork Airport at this stage though. Seems like the end is nigh. They'r elosing tons of flights already, I can't imagine they have a lot fo money as it. is. It's shit because they were supposed to be able to start afresh. DAA were the ones who chose how the new terminal would look and everything. Picked top of the range stuff, and now they crap all over it with this completely outrageous argument.

Just pay the bill you said you woudl like.

[storysham]

Are we getting a new ATC tower, looks like a new one being built opposite the terminal on the other side of the airport.

[FRAP]

I hate having to take a solid bar of gold to the airport every time I want to buy a coffee at Starbucks.

[markinmanc]

I hate having to take a solid bar of gold to the airport every time I want to buy a coffee at Starbucks.

I find they accept money as well.

[Frosty]

Are we getting a new ATC tower, looks like a new one being built opposite the terminal on the other side of the airport.

Yep, it's gona be shorter than the current tower (which will be knocked in time along with the old terminal).

[ripple]

Are we getting a new ATC tower, looks like a new one being built opposite the terminal on the other side of the airport.
shud be operational by may '09

[markinmanc]

Do you think Ryanair will be after a runway and ATC to themselves? ;)

[farel']

Yep, it's gona be shorter than the current tower (which will be knocked in time along with the old terminal).

Tower height is irrelevant these days, particularly when the airport is on the top of a hill.

Once you have full unobscured visibility through the full panorama of the airport your height is unimportant.
New Fire station on the cards also, going down near the flying club I think.