henry the real deal on the big stage

[qbim3]

ever wonder why henry rarely makes things happen on the big stage? usually terrorises lower EPl clubs put when playing big clubs struggles to make an impact? can probably count on one hand the number of times he has turned it on in big games, real madrid, united/chelsea once or twice. anyone out there got an opinion

[AmadeusDC]

ever wonder why henry rarely makes things happen on the big stage? usually terrorises lower EPl clubs put when playing big clubs struggles to make an impact? can probably count on one hand the number of times he has turned it on in big games, real madrid, united/chelsea once or twice. anyone out there got an opinion

Nope, never wondered that.

-AmadeusDC-

[qbim3]

Nope, never wondered that.

-AmadeusDC-
you must be the biggest child on this if you dont have an opinion don't comment

[AmadeusDC]

you must be the biggest child on this if you dont have an opinion don't comment

You're just wumming though........... I mean the last two topics you've brought up this one and the Celtic one have been DONE TO DEATH!! In fact they were done to the point that it made the forum a shittier place. All you need now is a Keane thread, a Rugby one and a United V's Liverpool and you'll have the full overdone topic box set. if you aren't just trying to rile people then do a search and read through the thousands of posts that have already been up here on this topic.

-AmadeusDC-

[Sound]

To quote myself a loooong time ago-

He's the best footballer in the PL and has been for some time. We've been watching one of the greats in his prime perform magically. Top scorer in the league consistently and up there in the assists stakes as well? What more can the guy do? If he leaves the PL and those who enjoy watching it will be poorer. Who would you rather watch up front? Owen? Shearer? Crouch? Van fucking Nistelrooy? Henry is a bloody football genius yet people still moan!

Fucking clueless begrudging nonsense.

He has 7 in 11 games against Utd and 8 in 10 games against Chelsea!

[qbim3]

oh there is no denying henry is a world class player, i wouldnt try and dispute it, but big big games im talkin about, maybe just might be the reason he gets over looked constantly for world footballer?

[Sound]

oh there is no denying henry is a world class player, i wouldnt try and dispute it, but big big games im talkin about, maybe just might be the reason he gets over looked constantly for world footballer?

But he's won it all apart from the CL. He has never scored in a final but he dragged Asrenal top the CL last year. He'd also walk on to any team on earth0- any one. Good enough for me.

[xvis]

....he does tend to go missing in the big ones alright....





Arsenal should have cashed him in.

[ho chi feen]

He has 7 in 11 games against Utd

Take out the two he scored against that clown of a keeper in December 2001, and it looks less impressive. Last season at OT? Nowhere. FA Cup final 2005? Didn't realise he was there. Battle of OT in 2003? Annonymous. 6-1 drubbing at ot OT in 2001? Nuff 'said.

Numbers are good, but they can be misleading. Fact is, Henry has had at least as many (if not more) shockers against the United than brilliant, or even decent , displays.

This isn't me saying he is or isn't a bottler (that's another argument. Incidentally, that's a widespread view of him in Italian and Spanish football circles), just that you can't read too much into those numbers.

[STEVIEG]

Take out the two he scored against that clown of a keeper in December 2001, and it looks less impressive. Last season at OT? Nowhere. FA Cup final 2005? Didn't realise he was there. Battle of OT in 2003? Annonymous. 6-1 drubbing at ot OT in 2001? Nuff 'said.

Numbers are good, but they can be misleading. Fact is, Henry has had at least as many (if not more) shockers against the United than brilliant, or even decent , displays.

This isn't me saying he is or isn't a bottler (that's another argument. Incidentally, that's a widespread view of him in Italian and Spanish football circles), just that you can't read too much into those numbers.


In fairness he was on the bench at OT last year but overall i agree
We've done the bottler thing to deth during the years and i think he's a very good player but not a player i would want in my side in a really crunch game

There are loads of examples of him doing it in big games too though(Madrid last year, Liverpool hatrick a few eyars ago, a couple of United games)

[Edmund Blackwater]

ever wonder why henry rarely makes things happen on the big stage? usually terrorises lower EPl clubs put when playing big clubs struggles to make an impact? can probably count on one hand the number of times he has turned it on in big games, real madrid, united/chelsea once or twice. anyone out there got an opinion
Because the rest of the team is shit.

[ho chi feen]

Because the rest of the team is shit.

Arsenal of 1999-2004 certainly weren't shit.

[saltyfriedeggs]

. Last season at OT? Nowhere. FA Cup final 2005? Didn't realise he was there. Battle of OT in 2003? Annonymous. 6-1 drubbing at ot OT in 2001? Nuff 'said.

Numbers are good, but they can be misleading. Fact is, Henry has had at least as many (if not more) shockers against the United than brilliant, or even decent , displays.

.

Ya you're right about the fa cup final 2005-he wasnt there.He was injured.

I dont think he played at Old trafford last year either.

Battle of OT 2003-I know you didnt say he was a bottler but i remember Van Nistelrooy bottling it big time.He looked like he was going to cry as he took that penalty.

6-1 at OT-he was the only Arsenal player that scored.Its not his fault that the rest of the team played brutal.Look at the Arsenal back line for that day.

I cant think of any recent striker/attacking player that scored or played well in every big game.Obviously hes going to score more against shit opposition because he's better than them.When he plays in the big games hes up against top class defenders but hes done it more often than not.

Hes made many a world class defender look average.Check the games hes played against the "best player in the world" Cannavaro against Inter and Juventus.Just like a few world class defender have made him look poor.But thats their job.They wouldnt be world class if they didnt. People say he didnt do it in the WC final but he was Frances best player after Thuram and he was concussed from the 1st minute.But he didnt score so people are only too happy to say he bottled it or he doesnt perform on the big stage.

People are just rehashing other peoples opinions about him because they dont like the guy without looking at the facts.I swear most of the people that argue that Henry is a bottler have no opinion of their own.These are the same people that expect him to be as prolific against the top teams as he is against the poor teams.That isnt going to happen.

I dont think it will be long before there are similar discussions about Rooney by the way.

[Edmund Blackwater]

I'd agree with most of that.
However, mentioning Rooney in the same breath as Henry is a bit of a stretch.

[STEVIEG]

[QUOTE=saltyfriedeggs

Battle of OT 2003-I know you didnt say he was a bottler but i remember Van Nistelrooy bottling it big time.He looked like he was going to cry as he took that penalty.

[/QUOTE]


For an Arsenal fan to even attempt scoring points on that game is pretty poor
Ruud hit the bar with a spotter and Arsenal attempted to erase the memories of all their great football (not against United incidentally) with one of the most classless displays of childishness ever seen on a football pitch
Ruud behaved with dignity

[STEVIEG]

I dont think it will be long before there are similar discussions about Rooney by the way.


The evidence so far suggests otherwise

he is 21

Even as a youngster he scored a key goal against Arsenal for Everton

In the last few years has been a key instigator in the dismantling of Arsenal on their own ground in the 4-2 a couple of years ago

Scored in the famous 50 not out game and was excellent in a game which has sent Arsenal from Premiership invincibles to also-rans

Scored and should have had a pen in the OT game last season as United again rolled them over

Helped United outplay Arse in the cup final that Arse eventually won (though Rooney scored his spotter)

Scored a winner at Anfield and has been a key man in United getting the better of Liverpool in most league games since he joined

Set up Saha against Chelsea last week and played well

Was well involved in a great win over Chelsea last year

Played really well and ocored loads of goals in Euro 2004

Was a crucial figure in two poor united teams making post Xmas drives to salvage crap seasons in the prem in 2005 and 2006

And he's been a key figure in getting them to the top of the league so far this season

Yes, he's had his problems and bad games but a bottler
I think not.....

[STEVIEG]

Because the rest of the team is shit.


really good analysis
Two of their best wins his season have been without him
Man United and Spurs

[Killyoursons]

The evidence so far suggests otherwise

he is 21

Even as a youngster he scored a key goal against Arsenal for Everton

In the last few years has been a key instigator in the dismantling of Arsenal on their own ground in the 4-2 a couple of years ago

Scored in the famous 50 not out game and was excellent in a game which has sent Arsenal from Premiership invincibles to also-rans

Scored and should have had a pen in the OT game last season as United again rolled them over

Helped United outplay Arse in the cup final that Arse eventually won (though Rooney scored his spotter)

Scored a winner at Anfield and has been a key man in United getting the better of Liverpool in most league games since he joined

Set up Saha against Chelsea last week and played well

Was well involved in a great win over Chelsea last year

Played really well and ocored loads of goals in Euro 2004

Was a crucial figure in two poor united teams making post Xmas drives to salvage crap seasons in the prem in 2005 and 2006

And he's been a key figure in getting them to the top of the league so far this season

Yes, he's had his problems and bad games but a bottler
I think not.....

On the other hand, he has a poor record in the CL.
Point is, Rooney has played well in some big matches, poorly in others. Just like Henry. To list a few matches where someone played badly (or where his team played badly) and to conclude he's a bottler or never does it on the big stage is ridiculous.

[ho chi feen]

Ya you're right about the fa cup final 2005-he wasnt there.He was injured.

I dont think he played at Old trafford last year either.


Tried to reel a few off the top of my head as I was just too lazy to be arsed researching it properly. Big mistake. However, my point still stands, even if I can't recall the exact games without checking it out to refresh my memory. I could list off the ones he'd played well in more easily, as it's easier to remember goals than annonymity.

Battle of OT 2003-I know you didnt say he was a bottler but i remember Van Nistelrooy bottling it big time.He looked like he was going to cry as he took that penalty.

That's of zero relevance. This thread's about Henry, not Van Nistelrooy. Don't recall him looking like he was about to cry before he took it either.

I cant think of any recent striker/attacking player that scored or played well in every big game.Obviously hes going to score more against shit opposition because he's better than them.When he plays in the big games hes up against top class defenders but hes done it more often than not.

The first part of that is taken as a given. The latter part is highly debatable. I could draw attention to the finals of Euro 2000, and this year's Champions League and World Cup, but I'm making a general point rather than going through the specifics.

Hes made many a world class defender look average.Check the games hes played against the "best player in the world" Cannavaro against Inter and Juventus.

Cannavaro isn't the best player in the world. He's the winner of the Balon d'Or. There is a big difference there. Also, Henry has been made to look average by average defenders, as well as making good ones look average, and average ones poor. Incidentally, Cannavaro was gash during his spell at Inter.


People are just rehashing other peoples opinions about him because they dont like the guy without looking at the facts.I swear most of the people that argue that Henry is a bottler have no opinion of their own.These are the same people that expect him to be as prolific against the top teams as he is against the poor teams.That isnt going to happen.

I'm not calling him a bottler (although he has bottled it on occasion), and these do happen to be my own opinions. Henry on a good day is a joy to watch, but it's the other side of his character which I dislike, his attitude when things aren't going his way. Rather than making things happen then, he sulks. Not a crime, of course. Many players do similar.

My point related to using the figure of 7 goals in 11 against United, and how I felt it could be seen as being somewhat misleading. As I said, take out the two gifted to him on a plate by Le Bufoon and you're left with 5 from 11. Not bad, certainly. But irrefutable proof that he consistently does it when it matters most? Not quite.


I dont think it will be long before there are similar discussions about Rooney by the way.

Possibly yes, possibly no. Again though, I fail to see the relevance. It's interesting that you seem to feel the need to draw comparisons between Henry, and Manchester United strikers, past & present. It appears to indicate you think that I have an agenda here, which I don't, or more likely that you have an agenda of your own, in which case I probably shouldn't even be entertaining you.

[STEVIEG]

On the other hand, he has a poor record in the CL.
Point is, Rooney has played well in some big matches, poorly in others. Just like Henry. To list a few matches where someone played badly (or where his team played badly) and to conclude he's a bottler or never does it on the big stage is ridiculous.


Agreed
And my first comments in this thread more or less made the same point

(And Rooney was very good in his first season in the Champions league and suspended for two of the big games last season, he still has a long way to go in that comp though, agreed)

[ho chi feen]

On the other hand, he has a poor record in the CL.
Point is, Rooney has played well in some big matches, poorly in others. Just like Henry. To list a few matches where someone played badly (or where his team played badly) and to conclude he's a bottler or never does it on the big stage is ridiculous.


Yup, and the same goes for listing games where he's played good, two of those which are reguarly cited being against sub-standard Italian sides in turomoil and crisis (Inter) and shocking form (Roma).

[Killyoursons]

Yup, and the same goes for listing games where he's played good, two of those which are reguarly cited being against sub-standard Italian sides in turomoil and crisis (Inter) and shocking form (Roma).

I agree entirely. But if the list of big games where he's done his stuff is long enough, then he can't be accused of being a bottler/not being a player for the big stage/not being a player for the crunch matches etc.
In Theirry's case, the list is plenty long.

[ho chi feen]

I agree entirely. But if the list of big games where he's done his stuff is long enough, then he can't be accused of being a bottler/not being a player for the big stage/not being a player for the crunch matches etc.
In Theirry's case, the list is plenty long.

Yeah, that's not really what I was saying though.

It's not about how long the list is itself, it's how long it is set against those where he hasn't done it. But that's not the argument I'm making, I'll leave that to others.

[saltyfriedeggs]

Cannavaro isn't the best player in the world. He's the winner of the Balon d'Or. There is a big difference there. Also, Henry has been made to look average by average defenders, as well as making good ones look average, and average ones poor. Incidentally, Cannavaro was gash during his spell at Inter.




Possibly yes, possibly no. Again though, I fail to see the relevance. It's interesting that you seem to feel the need to draw comparisons between Henry, and Manchester United strikers, past & present. It appears to indicate you think that I have an agenda here, which I don't, or more likely that you have an agenda of your own, in which case I probably shouldn't even be entertaining you.

Cannavaro seems to be flavour of the month and will probably win the world player of the year, and the inverted commas were meant to question that.He is good but not that good.

Dont get me wrong,I have nothing against united(although I dont like VanNistelrooy).I hope they win the league in fact since Arsenal are out of it.Im comparing him to Rooney because hes a player thats even less prolific against the top teams than Henry but hes never called a bottler.Im not saying Rooney is a bottler either.

I think a lot of this argument stems from the fact that people just dont like him, like you said he sulks.Im not saying that you're repeating other peoples opinions,just people in general are repeating what they hear because they dont like him.I like the fact that hes arrogant and gets pissed off and sulks on tv.The guy is human.Everyone makes a tit of themselves sometimes.People should give him a break.

[STEVIEG]

I think a lot of this argument stems from the fact that people just dont like him, like you said he sulks.Im not saying that you're repeating other peoples opinions,just people in general are repeating what they hear because they dont like him.I like the fact that hes arrogant and gets pissed off and sulks on tv.The guy is human.Everyone makes a tit of themselves sometimes.People should give him a break.

yup, fair point

[ho chi feen]

Call me old fashioned, but I like captains to roll up their sleeves and lead by example: Roy Keane, Martin Johnson, and so forth.

When I see Henry sulking, for me it's like he stops trying. He ceases to have any influence on the game, not by having an off day but by choice because he doesn't like what he sees happening. Okay, Zidane had pleny of bad games in his career, but I never looked at him and thought "That's it, he's not trying anymore".

The point of players like Zidane, Henry, Ronldinho and so forth id that they are there to make something happen.

[STEVIEG]

Call me old fashioned, but I like captains to roll up their sleeves and lead by example: Roy Keane, Martin Johnson, and so forth.

When I see Henry sulking, for me it's like he stops trying. He ceases to have any influence on the game, not by having an off day but by choice because he doesn't like what he sees happening. Okay, Zidane had pleny of bad games in his career, but I never looked at him and thought "That's it, he's not trying anymore".

The point of players like Zidane, Henry, Ronldinho and so forth id that they are there to make something happen.


In fairness i think Salty (or a diff Arsenal fan like Blueskies???) said the other day in a different thread that he reckoned Henry shouldn't be Captain aswell

I thought Gilberto was excellent as captain today

[Killyoursons]

Call me old fashioned, but I like captains to roll up their sleeves and lead by example: Roy Keane, Martin Johnson, and so forth.

When I see Henry sulking, for me it's like he stops trying. He ceases to have any influence on the game, not by having an off day but by choice because he doesn't like what he sees happening. Okay, Zidane had pleny of bad games in his career, but I never looked at him and thought "That's it, he's not trying anymore".

The point of players like Zidane, Henry, Ronldinho and so forth id that they are there to make something happen.

Yup. But when they don't make something happen, that isn't always their fault. The performance of the team as a whole should be taken into account. That's why citing a 6-1 defeat at OT seems like a cheap shot against Henry.
I agree with you that he tends to drift out of games when things aren't going his way, although in fairness to him he got a crucial goal at Landsdowne Road when he was having an absolute stinker. But a player should be assessed primarily on his contribution, noto n how hard he tries, or looks like he's trying.

[STEVIEG]

in fairness to him he got a crucial goal at Landsdowne Road when he was having an absolute stinker..

always the sign of a good striker

[saltyfriedeggs]

Call me old fashioned, but I like captains to roll up their sleeves and lead by example: Roy Keane, Martin Johnson, and so forth.
.

I agree.I think hes a shit captain and its having a negative affect on the team.I think Toure should be captain.

[ho chi feen]

Yup. But when they don't make something happen, that isn't always their fault. The performance of the team as a whole should be taken into account. That's why citing a 6-1 defeat at OT seems like a cheap shot against Henry.

I agree. I wasn't saying that that made him a bad player, I was just bringing it up in reference to Sound's "11 games, 7 goals, case closed" line, just as I brought up the Barthez fiasco on the same issue.

Even worse than citing that had to be citing games he wasn't involved in. Ooops. :x-mas:

[ho chi feen]

I agree.I think hes a shit captain and its having a negative affect on the team.I think Toure should be captain.


Yeah, his job is scoring and making goals. He hasn't really got captaincy credentials, I imagine the captaincy was part of Wenger's attempts to woo him into comitting himself long-term.

Never been a big fan of having strikers as captain.

[Edmund Blackwater]

You've changed my mind.
Henry is shit.
I wouldn't have him near the team.

[ho chi feen]

Beautiful football isn't much good if it's ineffective. I'll be the first to admit, I haven't seen that much of Arsenal this season bar OT, Pool and Moscow at home, but everytime I listen to 606, it's the same... gooners fans going mad at the team hitting to many passed but never delivering the killer one, about nobody taking the responsibility to shoot. It sounds frustrating as hell.

[steve sanders]

reyes was fucked up by henry too though.


ill cry if utd land him.

in fairness, crying about it is way over the top. football is a business. arsenal will be fine, jesus like. theye'll still finish top six, it's not the end of the world.

[qbim3]

hey dude
stick to american sports ya yank