Mockery?

[STEVIEG]

Not a bad list but No Jock Stein?

Brian Glanville's top 10 British managers


From the Sunday Times

1. Herbert Chapman
2. Matt Busby
3. Brian Clough
4. Alex Ferguson
5. =Bill Shankley/ Bob Paisley
7. Arsene Wenger
8. Bill Nicholson
9. Stan Cullis
10. Arthur Rowe

[Actin The Sham]

And no Don Revie?

[MonTheHoops]

Shouldn't it be British based?

Arsene Wenger wasn't raised on jellied eels.

Stein should be on it, no doubt. Surely a European Cup with 11 homegrowns deserves it.

[STEVIEG]

[QUOTE=MonTheHoops]Shouldn't it be British based?

QUOTE]


Presume he means who worked in Britain
No Christian Gross either..........

[Lamps]

Stein should be there if Busby is.

There needs to be a forumla.

Here's mine.

Trophies Won / Time in Charge whilst also taking into account the size of the club

Clough winning with Forest is a greater achievement that somebody winning with Liverpool or United.

[Actin The Sham]

Is Arsene Wenger British? And where is Alf Ramsey?

[Lamps]

And no Don Revie?

And the end of the day he won two titles. Not a great return considering his rep

[Actin The Sham]

Stein should be there if Busby is.

There needs to be a forumla.

Here's mine.

Trophies Won / Time in Charge whilst also taking into account the size of the club

Clough winning with Forest is a greater achievement that somebody winning with Liverpool or United.

Taking Ipswich from Third Division (south) to winning the old First Division, in their first year in it was an even better achievement.

Imagine if Watford won the Premiership this year, or Reading. That's what Ramsey achieved with Ipswich.

[BlueSkies]

Kenny Dalglish?

[Forsberg]

Howard Kendall would be a contender for his first spell at Everton. However the shamble that were his second and third spell probably rightly rules him out

[mart]

Brian Clough? I wouldn't say he would be in the top 10 but definately in the TOP 1!!!

CLOUGHIES a legend!

[Lamps]

Taking Ipswich from Third Division (south) to winning the old First Division, in their first year in it was an even better achievement.

Imagine if Watford won the Premiership this year, or Reading. That's what Ramsey achieved with Ipswich.

clough came up from second div with forest and won the league cup and first divsion in his first season in top flight, then won the european cup the following year.

Also won the league with Derby, who he says were his best side and if he had stayed would have been the dominant force in the late 70's instead of liverpool

He tops the list for me

[Actin The Sham]

clough came up from second div with forest and won the league cup and first divsion in his first season in top flight, then won the european cup the following year.

Also won the league with Derby, who he says were his best side and if he had stayed would have been the dominant force in the late 70's instead of liverpool

He tops the list for me

I'm not disagreeing, I just think that Ramsey's achievements (including winning the world cup with England) warrant his inclusion in the list.

Incidentally, did Derby do the double the year they won the league with Cloughie?

[STEVIEG]

No Derby never won the double

[Lamps]

I'm not disagreeing, I just think that Ramsey's achievements (including winning the world cup with England) warrant his inclusion in the list.

Incidentally, did Derby do the double the year they won the league with Cloughie?

No, liverpool were the last team to do an actual double.

before that arsenal, spurs, preston and villa(i think)

i don't recognise any other double, maybe united's first (94?)

[MonTheHoops]

And the end of the day he won two titles. Not a great return considering his rep

That Leeds team is one of the most talked up sides ever. When initially hearing about them, and how Revie is revered, I believed they'd made a clean sweep of everyone who crossed their path in the 70s, soccer's answer to the Harlem Globetrotters.

[STEVIEG]

No, liverpool were the last team to do an actual double.

before that arsenal, spurs, preston and villa(i think)

i don't recognise any other double, maybe united's first (94?)

Villa didn't do one
1994, 1996, 1999?
And Arsenals more recent ones 1998, 2002??? (i think)

[Sound]

No Joe Fagan in the top 10?

Pfft.

[mart]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eGEwblZKss

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKMS5eyHWwo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDidAJ-xbcc

Honours while under Cloughie:

League Cup: Winners 1978, 1979, 1989, 1990
R/U 1980, 1992

FA Cup: R/U 1991

League Champions: Winners 1977-78
R/U 1978-79

Charity Shield : Winners 1978

BIGGEST ACHEIVEMENT:
European Cup: Winners 1979, 1980
European Super Cup: Winners 1980

[STEVIEG]

No Joe Fagan in the top 10?

Pfft.


Nor Souness or Tommy Doherty

[mart]

Worst Nottm Forest managers(that i can remember):

David Platt
Ron Atkinson
Gary Megson
Dave Bassett
Joe Kinnear

[xvis]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eGEwblZKss

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKMS5eyHWwo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDidAJ-xbcc

Honours while under Cloughie:

League Cup: Winners 1978, 1979, 1989, 1990
R/U 1980, 1992

FA Cup: R/U 1991

League Champions: Winners 1978
R/U 1978-79

Charity Shield : Winners 1978

BIGGEST ACHEIVEMENT:
European Cup: Winners 1979, 1980
European Super Cup: Winners 1980

I'll keep it simple and take out the charity stuff and coming second there la'

[mart]

[/SIZE]

I'll keep it simple and take out the charity stuff and coming second there la'

When you're a forest fan these days man, coming second in the league and a charity sheild is a huge deal bai!

[mart]

and also, they won the league cup 4 times under him.... I beleive winning that cup was a bigger deal back then than what it is now, you didn't highlight that!

[KolaKubes]

Not a bad list but No Jock Stein?

Brian Glanville's top 10 British managers


From the Sunday Times

1. Herbert Chapman
2. Matt Busby
3. Brian Clough
4. Alex Ferguson
5. =Bill Shankley/ Bob Paisley
7. Arsene Wenger
8. Bill Nicholson
9. Stan Cullis
10. Arthur Rowe

That's fucking nuts. Arsene Wenger?! Why?

Everyone looks the other way when you mention that his "genius" was largely underpinned by a) having first dibs on the production line of the world's premier football nation over his most successful period b) poaching players c) paying players through offshore accounts (something they got fined £17m for) d) trafficking players from Africa to "their" club in Belgium e) having David Dein as kingmaker in the FA throughout.

Similar "dodgy" charges could be thrown at the likes of Ferguson but seeing as how the only logical reason for having Wenger on that list with his relatively paltry honours list is admiration for how he won his trophies then the criticism is valid.

Arsenal aren't much more noble than Chelsea, they just have less money.

Glanville is a fuckwit though. No Jock Stein? Also, Chapman only one four league titles by my reckoning so what on Earth is he on top for? Busby created the biggest club in the game, certainly the British game.

Typical tedious London bias. What about Dalglish? What about Bobby Robson's heroics with Ipswich Town?

[xvis]

and also, they won the league cup 4 times under him.... I beleive winning that cup was a bigger deal back then than what it is now, you didn't highlight that!


..it wasn't a mistake. the league cup was only important last march, ..and even then just for 15 seconds.


When you're a forest fan these days man, coming second in the league and a charity sheild is a huge deal bai!

true, true.




I was never really a fan of Cloughs.
He had shed loads of personality himself but I felt his teams never did. ..plenty of clean, tidy haircuts and players of pretty dull character. personally, I preferred the more blood-and-thunder type players and teams.

[mart]

..it wasn't a mistake. the league cup was only important last march, ..and even then just for 15 seconds.




true, true.




I was never really a fan of Cloughs.
He had shed loads of personality himself but I felt his teams never did. ..plenty of clean, tidy haircuts and players of pretty dull character. personally, I preferred the more blood-and-thunder type players and teams.

Fair enough man, everyone has their own opinion. But you have to understand, there aint 1 forest fan in the world who doesnt like cloughie!! i even look out for burton albions results now cos of cloughie jnr!!..

the league cup was only important last season? brilliant!! you have to love that kinda stuff............... .............

[BlueSkies]

That's fucking nuts. Arsene Wenger?! Why?

Everyone looks the other way when you mention that his "genius" was largely underpinned by a) having first dibs on the production line of the world's premier football nation over his most successful period b) poaching players c) paying players through offshore accounts (something they got fined £17m for) d) trafficking players from Africa to "their" club in Belgium e) having David Dein as kingmaker in the FA throughout.

Similar "dodgy" charges could be thrown at the likes of Ferguson but seeing as how the only logical reason for having Wenger on that list with his relatively paltry honours list is admiration for how he won his trophies then the criticism is valid.

Arsenal aren't much more noble than Chelsea, they just have less money.



Stick to the rugby-bashing I'd say, you're basically admitting Ferguson is a cheat.

[Sound]

That's fucking nuts. Arsene Wenger?! Why?

Everyone looks the other way when you mention that his "genius" was largely underpinned by a) having first dibs on the production line of the world's premier football nation over his most successful period b) poaching players c) paying players through offshore accounts (something they got fined £17m for) d) trafficking players from Africa to "their" club in Belgium e) having David Dein as kingmaker in the FA throughout.

Similar "dodgy" charges could be thrown at the likes of Ferguson but seeing as how the only logical reason for having Wenger on that list with his relatively paltry honours list is admiration for how he won his trophies then the criticism is valid.

Arsenal aren't much more noble than Chelsea, they just have less money.

Glanville is a fuckwit though. No Jock Stein? Also, Chapman only one four league titles by my reckoning so what on Earth is he on top for? Busby created the biggest club in the game, certainly the British game.

Typical tedious London bias. What about Dalglish? What about Bobby Robson's heroics with Ipswich Town?

The Wenger stuff is bonkers but the rest I agree with. The 'it was just coz he was French' stuff especially.

[Lamps]

Villa didn't do one
1994, 1996, 1999?
And Arsenals more recent ones 1998, 2002??? (i think)

I put a question mark in because I wasn't 100% certain.

but thanks to google i can verify that in 1897. Villa were the second team, after Preston North End, to do the 'Double'. Ye'll miss my expert knowledge when i'm gone.

Does it strike anyone that there were only 3 double's in the last century before Sky got involved in football?
This is why I don't really count them. The double used to be something which was hard to do. A double these days means nothing. I threw you a crumb when i gave you the 94 double Stevie, I'll just about give ye that one.

[Lamps]

Not sure if Wenger should be on the top 10, as i haven't compiled a list but he has competed with united on a third of their budget.

Whatever wacky conspiracy is claimed about him this is the one indisputable fact. There is no way Ferguson could do likewise in this day and age on a third of Arsenal's.

[MonTheHoops]

Playing Devil's advocate here a bit but does anyone think Ferguson's time at United hasn't been as successful as has been made out? The guy did brilliantly once the Premiership was introduced and was able to adapt to the Premiership much faster than any of his counterparts, many of whom threw money at the team in an attempt to overtake United.

In Europe though I think, Barcelona 99 aside, that his record is poor. They were consistent quarter finalists for a long time but they were the richest club in the world and that kind of dominance needs to be built on and it doesn't seem to me that it ever was.

His early career with Aberdeen is something he can be extremely proud of. He got them to a European final and took the title away from Glasgow - no mean feat. His first 10 years at United were phenomonal but towards the end of that 10 years United really should have been dominating in Europe which history will show they didn't.

Before anyone jumps down my throat, I am not saying he's a poor manager but I'm asking genuine United fans that during their period of asendancy, looking back on it do you think that United should have pulled in more than one Champions League trophy?

Again, not doubting how fantastic a manager he was, just raising the question.

[Lamps]

Considering his resources, Europe must be the grounds on which he is judged.

Even his right hand man Roy, said the great teams do it in Europe, that their win should have been the springboard. In this regard he has failed badly

[Jim Comic]

Clough winning with Forest is a greater achievement that somebody winning with Liverpool or United.


unbelievable achievement, as was winning the league twice with 2 provincial clubs (derby & forest)


amazing manager

[Jim Comic]

..

He had shed loads of personality himself but I felt his teams never did. ..plenty of clean, tidy haircuts and players of pretty dull character. personally, I preferred the more blood-and-thunder type players and teams.

who cares if his players were of dull character, though i think you're forgetting the likes of john robertson, roy keane, stuart pearce, etc. Forest always played pretty good football as far as i recall.

[Jim Comic]

Also, Chapman only one four league titles by my reckoning so what on Earth is he on top for?


chapman won the league 4 times but created 2 sides who went on to win the league 3 times in a row (huddersfield in the 20's and arsenal in the 30's), i think the arse hadn't won anything for years til he came along and he made them a major force in the game

it used be said that man utd were the most glamourous, liverpool the most successful and arsenal the richest (mainly because of Chapman's foresight)

his record is fantastic, had he not died after arsenal's 2nd title triumph of the three in the 30's then god knows what he might have achieved

[MonTheHoops]

who cares if his players were of dull character, though i think you're forgetting the likes of john robertson, roy keane, stuart pearce, etc. Forest always played pretty good football as far as i recall.


Robertson stopped once when taking a corner to take a smoke of a fag from a supporter.

Do Gazza's antics make players interesting? I'd rather 11 dullards than 11 wife beating alcoholics.

[alpha]

forest never had a team like that before brian clough, the closest was the team who finished 2nd in the league in '66-'67, and they've continued to slide down hill since he left, frank clark the most succesfull forest manager since then. so whats that telling ya. never been a great fan of forest but i dont think they're a team many people dislike, unless you're a derby or leicester city fan.

[Jim Comic]

Robertson stopped once when taking a corner to take a smoke of a fag from a supporter.



someone once told me of a cork goalie (may have been ludzik) who i think when playing away at rovers was getting fierce abuse from the crowd and was getitng stuff thrown at him. Eventually someone threw an orange at him so he picked it up, peeled it and ate it in front of them while the match was going on

won them over after that so he did :)

[MonTheHoops]

forest never had a team like that before brian clough, the closest was the team who finished 2nd in the league in '66-'67, and they've continued to slide down hill since he left, frank clark the most succesfull forest manager since then. so whats that telling ya. never been a great fan of forest but i dont think they're a team many people dislike, unless you're a derby or leicester city fan.


To be fair, shankly did take Liverpool from the old second division to the European Cup. Liverpool didn't have "history" at that time.

Two greats talking tactics

http://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=steinsh anklynv2.jpg

[Jim Comic]

shanks never won the european cup, he did win the uefa cup, 3 titles and 2 f.a. cups though.

but he is largely credited with laying the foundations of the european cup winning side of '77

all hail shanks! (well, me anyways)

[MonTheHoops]

shanks never won the european cup, he did win the uefa cup, 3 titles and 2 f.a. cups though.

but he is largely credited with laying the foundations of the european cup winning side of '77

all hail shanks! (well, me anyways)


Yeah sorry that should read a European cup, not the European Cup.

Paisley gets to plaudits, and deserves them, but what Shankley did for Liverpool should never be forgotten.

[MonTheHoops]

http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/9624/steinshanklynv2.jpg

[Rebelred]

Playing Devil's advocate here a bit but does anyone think Ferguson's time at United hasn't been as successful as has been made out? The guy did brilliantly once the Premiership was introduced and was able to adapt to the Premiership much faster than any of his counterparts, many of whom threw money at the team in an attempt to overtake United.

In Europe though I think, Barcelona 99 aside, that his record is poor. They were consistent quarter finalists for a long time but they were the richest club in the world and that kind of dominance needs to be built on and it doesn't seem to me that it ever was.

His early career with Aberdeen is something he can be extremely proud of. He got them to a European final and took the title away from Glasgow - no mean feat. His first 10 years at United were phenomonal but towards the end of that 10 years United really should have been dominating in Europe which history will show they didn't.

Before anyone jumps down my throat, I am not saying he's a poor manager but I'm asking genuine United fans that during their period of asendancy, looking back on it do you think that United should have pulled in more than one Champions League trophy?

Again, not doubting how fantastic a manager he was, just raising the question.
no its a genuine question MON, I feel you're right about one thing, United should have more than one Champions league under fergie, the one's that really stick out in my mind being 97 and 2002. In 97 we had a side that had youth and experience in equal measures, but were caught out by a well organised Dortmund side. In 2002,when Bayer beat us in the semi, we were sucker punched by 2 away goals at Old Trafford. hindsights a great thing but had Stam been in that defence,and not Blanc, the results over that leg could well have been different.

I wouldn't say Fergie has underachieved though. The amount of trophies he won in the mid 90's helped to make the club as big as it now is, which in turn brought in the increased revenues, expanded the stadium etc.
When he arrived in 86 there was a drinking culture within the team, we were a cup team with a speciality of falling out of the league race after Christmas and without a title in nearly 20 years. It took him until 1990/91 to steady the ship really, had he not gone on the cup run in 1990 history would look very different now perhaps. Since then he has built 2 great United teams (94 and the 96-99 bunch) and won every honour in the game.
Yes he's gone off the boil slightly in the last few years (djx2,kleb,miller), but when you put together his 20 years(a phenomenal period of time for any manager), his successes far outweigh any shortcomings

[homer jay]

Playing Devil's advocate here a bit but does anyone think Ferguson's time at United hasn't been as successful as has been made out? The guy did brilliantly once the Premiership was introduced and was able to adapt to the Premiership much faster than any of his counterparts, many of whom threw money at the team in an attempt to overtake United.

In Europe though I think, Barcelona 99 aside, that his record is poor. They were consistent quarter finalists for a long time but they were the richest club in the world and that kind of dominance needs to be built on and it doesn't seem to me that it ever was.

His early career with Aberdeen is something he can be extremely proud of. He got them to a European final and took the title away from Glasgow - no mean feat. His first 10 years at United were phenomonal but towards the end of that 10 years United really should have been dominating in Europe which history will show they didn't.

Before anyone jumps down my throat, I am not saying he's a poor manager but I'm asking genuine United fans that during their period of asendancy, looking back on it do you think that United should have pulled in more than one Champions League trophy?

Again, not doubting how fantastic a manager he was, just raising the question.

i'd have to agree here. plc money must also be factored in. plus his relative lack of success in the early years at utd when mid table finishes were common.

[MonTheHoops]

Dortmund were unbelievably well organised. I remember when Lambert left Motherwell for Dortmund thinking "what do Dortmund want him for?" There was no real interest in the guy from any other Scottish sides. Returned to Celtic of course with a Champions League medal.

You mention 97 & 02. Personally I think United should have 2 trophies won under Ferguson, these 2 being them. Ironically the one ye won should really have been Bayern's. Credit the team & Ferguson for making changes but that kind of victory in a final is unprecedented.

success outweighs any shortcomings

Wouldn't even consider challenging that and not doubting it in the slightest.

[Lamps]

The way I see it, it comes down to 2.

Clough and Paisley. Just did a wiki on Paisley's record and to be fair, it wipes Ferguson's out. So it comes down to whether Clough's achievements at small clubs outweighs this.

Paisley's record from 74/75 to 82/83
* 1975/76 League Championship (Level 1) :
* 1975/76 UEFA Cup : His first European trophy and Liverpool's second
* 1976/77 League Championship (Level 1) : His second league title
* 1976/77 European Cup : Liverpool's first European Cup -
* 1977/78 European Cup : Retained European Cup from the previous year
* 1978/79 League Championship (Level 1) : Third title in four years
* 1979/80 League Championship (Level 1) : Fourth title in five years
* 1980/81 League Cup : Liverpool's first ever League Cup
* 1980/81 European Cup : European Cup number 3
* 1981/82 League Cup : Retained League Cup
* 1981/82 League Championship (Level 1) : Fifth title in seven years
* 1982/83 League Cup : Third successive League Cup
* 1982/83 League Championship (Level 1) : 21st and final managerial prize

In NINE seasons he won 6 tiltles and 3 european cups. And the team he left behind won another title and european cup after he left.

[FL4ZGN]

In NINE seasons he won 6 tiltles and 3 european cups. And the team he left behind won another title and european cup after he left.

In ten season Sir Alex Ferguson won 8 titles, 4 FA cups, 1 League cup, 1 European Cup, 2 European cup winners cups, 2 Uefa super cups and one Intercontinental cup.

Lamps were you on Mars during this period not to recognize it?

[STEVIEG]

In ten season between 93 and 03 Sir Alex Ferguson won 8 titles, 4 FA cups, 1 League cup, 1 European Cup, 2 European cup winners cups, 2 Uefa super cups and one Intercontinental cup.

Lamps were you on Mars during this period not to recognize it?

Don't bother
He's embarassing himself and wumming with the United won one double comment
If its so easy how come Jose hasn't won one yet?

[FL4ZGN]

Don't bother
He's embarassing himself and wumming with the United won one double comment
If its so easy how come Jose hasn't won one yet?

United did the double double.

Twice

FACT!

[STEVIEG]

Ironically the one ye won should really have been Bayern's.
.


True, but for a Peter Schmiechal dropped ball in the qualifying game away in th elast second, United, who had outplayed Bayern that night as much as they outplayed United in the final, would have been out and barca would have been in
the game is not over till the end and Bayern didn't recognise in the Nou Camp and ultiately, deserved what they got

[MonTheHoops]

To be fair lads, 3 European Cups in that space of time is an amazing achievement.

I'm certainly not denegrating Ferguson's achievements but Paisley's do eclipse his and Clough did do it with an unfashionable side, back to back.

[STEVIEG]

Playing Devil's advocate here a bit but does anyone think Ferguson's time at United hasn't been as successful as has been made out?


No

Compare to any of the modern day genius's

Jose, excellent so far and resources or no resources he has to be given credit but still needs to show longevity

Rafa has been good in spain but too many Hector cuper deserves credit for building his successful Valencia side-over here he won an amazing European cup but ultimately the jury is out

Critcs fav Wenger-very good but still losing 5-3 to Fergie in their time together in England in titles and no Eurpoean Cup, in fact only one Euro semi (obviously, still unreal on small resources)

[Jim Comic]

no Eurpoean Cup, in fact only one Euro semi (obviously, still unreal on small resources)


and last years final

[STEVIEG]

Not sure if Wenger should be on the top 10, as i haven't compiled a list but he has competed with united on a third of their budget.

Whatever wacky conspiracy is claimed about him this is the one indisputable fact. There is no way Ferguson could do likewise in this day and age on a third of Arsenal's.


Same guy who's Aberdeen won a European trophy by beating Real Madrid.........

[STEVIEG]

and last years final

It goes without saying, but before that a terrible record in Europe

[MonTheHoops]

Yes

Compare to any of the modern day genius's

Jose, excellent so far and resources or no resources he has to be given credit but still needs to show longevity

Rafa has been good in spain but too many Hector cuper deserves credit for building his successful Valencia side-over here he won an amazing European cup but ultimately the jury is out

Critcs fav Wenger-very good but still losing 5-3 to Fergie in their time together in England in titles and no Eurpoean Cup, in fact only one Euro semi (obviously, still unreal on small resources)


Steve,

Not everything is an attack on United. I've no agenda here.

In 30 years time people will look back and wonder why United, with all their domestic domination, didn't win more than one European Cup. The same criticism can be made of Jock Stein but he guided Celtic to a second European final in 70.

I'm not comparing Ferguson to his counterparts at present, I don't think much of Benitez to be honest. I'm comparing Ferguson to those who have gone before him. It's not a criticism of him, it's an observation. If the best we can do is compare him against his current counterparts then he doesn't deserve his place in history. Compare him against those in the Top 10, not those well below it.

And surely Arsenal made a final appearance.

[STEVIEG]

To be fair lads, 3 European Cups in that space of time is an amazing achievement.




Absoultely, but i didn't mention anything about Paisley or Clough or Liverpool or Forest (superb managers and teams)

Im answering the question about Fergie being over-rated
It's a bit of a no-brainer look at the trophies
People using the lazy United had money excuse pay little attention to how he built his teams with a youtful and cheap core and how he built an Aberdeen team that was every bit of a managerial achievment as people like Jose's ones with Porto

[STEVIEG]

Steve,


In 30 years time people will look back and wonder why United, with all their domestic domination, didn't win more than one European Cup.



Yes, everyone knows they should have won a few more but he is still not over-rated-8 titles in 11 years looks fairly stunning

[Forsberg]

No



Critcs fav Wenger-very good but still losing 5-3 to Fergie in their time together in England in titles and no Eurpoean Cup,

But you could turn that around Steve and say that their records are almost identical in their first 10 years at their clubs respectively

[STEVIEG]

I'm comparing Ferguson to those who have gone before him. It's not a criticism of him, it's an observation. If the best we can do is compare him against his current counterparts then he doesn't deserve his place in history. Compare him against those in the Top 10, not those well below it.


These comparisons are very hard but i would only have Busby or paisley/Shankly next to him so, with the possibility of Clough

[STEVIEG]

But you could turn that around Steve and say that their records are almost identical in their first 10 years at their clubs respectively

Almost
5-3 Fergie in titles
Think Arse won maybe one more FA cup not sure
1-0 Fergie European cups and loads more quarter finals and a few more semis (counts for nothing in fairness though)
Almost identical, but not quite, Fergie, despite what many think, has a superior record to Wenger in that time

[KolaKubes]

i'd have to agree here. plc money must also be factored in. plus his relative lack of success in the early years at utd when mid table finishes were common.

ABU Myth #44: Utd were rich because they went public.

Am, no. Utd were rich because they have way way more fans than anyone else in Britain, in Ireland and beyond and have done for decades and decades. The fans buy the shirts, fill OT, buy the Lee Sharpe duvets and the PLC make money. Some of which they then put back into the team but most of which went on the stadium which apart from facilitating more fans, also earned the PLC and its shareholders (principally Martin Edwards) more money.

In Ferguson's best years, you had Blackburn, Liverpool and Newcastle all spending more money (largely externally sourced from sugar daddies) than Utd did. To some degree, you could argue that part of his problem in the early years at Utd was breaking the stranglehold Liverpool with their pools money had on the English game. No surprise it took him a number of years to get his own house in order.

The only occasions that his grip on the Premiership trophy lifted over an 11 year spell was a "bought" title in 1995, one outstanding Arsenal side (the backbone of which Wenger inherited from Graham and Rioch incidentally) and one less than outstanding Arsenal side in 2002 when Utd were sleepwalking domestically as Ferguson plotted retirement playing with horsies.

At European level, Utd were up against a much higher standard of opposition over the mid to late 90s than currently seen plus they were hamstrung by a foreigner rule that would see Arsenal and Liverpool's recent successful EC sides unable to field an XI! Failing to replace Schmeichel adequately was a notable failure of Ferguson. Externally, the rise of the 'Galacticos' (a rather bizarre phenomenon funded by Madrid City council) seriously limited Utd's chances of a further EC title. To be honest, last year's Barcelona team aside, the EC has been in the doldrums since that Madrid side with very poor sides winning it outright such as Porto and Liverpool. Utd were just that much poorer again over the period. I suspect even Wenger himself was astonished his very promising young side almost won it last year. At the moment, it's now a very high profile cup competition of rather limited quality. Look at some of the hammerings being meted out already this year.

Ferguson, outstanding over about 15 of the 20 seasons he's been in charge.
Aberdeen:

3 league titles
4 Scottish cups
1 Scottish league cup
1 ECWC

Man Utd:
8 league titles
5 FA Cups
2 league cups
1 ECWC
1 EC

I don't know, I think it's very very arguable that he should be right at the top of that list myself.

One small final point. His sides have always played attractive, attacking football.

[MonTheHoops]

Yes, everyone knows they should have won a few more but he is still not over-rated-8 titles in 11 years looks fairly stunning


Ok. Looking back I worded it wrongly. It shouldn't read over-rated, as you said not cos of his achievements. He has been a fantastic manager.

What I mean is, in 30 years time, how will his record stand up to his predecessors? His titles can't be argued but his European record is not fantastic for a guy whose sides have been competing at the top for around 15 years.

You make a good point about resources as much of United's spending power was made on the back of his victories in the domestic league.

[STEVIEG]

What I mean is, in 30 years time, how will his record stand up to his predecessors? His titles can't be argued but his European record is not fantastic for a guy whose sides have been competing at the top for around 15 years.



Any United fan will agree that they should have bagged a couple more European Champions leagues in this time, i still think he will be coinsidered one of the very greats, and if he builds another title winning team or won that wins in Europe, (who knows), it will also help his legacy

[Forsberg]

Almost
5-3 Fergie in titles
Think Arse won maybe one more FA cup not sure
1-0 Fergie European cups and loads more quarter finals and a few more semis (counts for nothing in fairness though)
Almost identical, but not quite, Fergie, despite what many think, has a superior record to Wenger in that time


Well Fergie only won 3 titles in his first 10 years at old trafford 86 - 96 so it's identical to Wengers in that respect. Think Arsenal have more FA cups . But United have a Cup winners cup

[Lamps]

In ten season Sir Alex Ferguson won 8 titles, 4 FA cups, 1 League cup, 1 European Cup, 2 European cup winners cups, 2 Uefa super cups and one Intercontinental cup.

Lamps were you on Mars during this period not to recognize it?

You can't just pick his most successful period.

And i stand by my statement that the double means far far less these days.

I see that reasoned debate is a dying art in this place.

[MonTheHoops]

Any United fan will agree that they should have bagged a couple more European Champions leagues in this time, i still think he will be coinsidered one of the very greats, and if he builds another title winning team or won that wins in Europe, (who knows), it will also help his legacy


If he wins another European Cup I'd have no problem in proclaiming him the best ever. No problem.

Absolutely no offence meant here but I don't see United making another European Cup final under his stewardship let alone winning it. To show I'm not winding, I don't see Celtic making it to the last 16 any time soon either. This year is our best chance and it'll be extremely tough to do that even.

[STEVIEG]

Well Fergie only won 3 titles in his first 10 years at old trafford 86 - 96 so it's identical to Wengers in that respect. Think Arsenal have more FA cups . But United have a Cup winners cup


Yes
In fairness, Arsene Wenger can't be judged properly yet i reckon he might still win a few more titles and a European cup or two, you never know

Fergie, Wenger, Jose and the rest, can't really be judged till they finish

[STEVIEG]

Absolutely no offence meant here but I don't see United making another European Cup final under his stewardship let alone winning it.


Don't worry, most United fans feel the same
Many think even a league title is out of reach
Persoanlly i'm an optimist and dont think the competition is that amazing both in Europe and domestically, but i've always been like that
When i was growing up the highlight swere the odd FA Cup so its all good!

[Lamps]

Same guy who's Aberdeen won a European trophy by beating Real Madrid.........


what part of in this day and age don't you understand.

Stevie, it is obvious to me that you can't rationally contribute to this thread.

[MonTheHoops]

When i was growing up the highlight swere the odd FA Cup so its all good!

Surely the 68 final must have given you a buzz as a 10 yr old ;)

FA Cup finals were only a big thing cos English sides were out of Europe. The last 10 years I'm sure clubs would rather win the lottery.

[Lamps]

p.s. Stevie, I would like you to withdraw your statement from the record that Villa never won the double.

[xvis]

The way I see it, it comes down to 2.

Clough and Paisley. Just did a wiki on Paisley's record and to be fair, it wipes Ferguson's out. So it comes down to whether Clough's achievements at small clubs outweighs this.

Paisley's record from 74/75 to 82/83
* 1975/76 League Championship (Level 1) :
* 1975/76 UEFA Cup : His first European trophy and Liverpool's second
* 1976/77 League Championship (Level 1) : His second league title
* 1976/77 European Cup : Liverpool's first European Cup -
* 1977/78 European Cup : Retained European Cup from the previous year
* 1978/79 League Championship (Level 1) : Third title in four years
* 1979/80 League Championship (Level 1) : Fourth title in five years
* 1980/81 League Cup : Liverpool's first ever League Cup
* 1980/81 European Cup : European Cup number 3
* 1981/82 League Cup : Retained League Cup
* 1981/82 League Championship (Level 1) : Fifth title in seven years
* 1982/83 League Cup : Third successive League Cup
* 1982/83 League Championship (Level 1) : 21st and final managerial prize

In NINE seasons he won 6 tiltles and 3 european cups. And the team he left behind won another title and european cup after he left.

If we're talking about the Greatest British Managers of all time Ferguson's full record needs to be looked at. ...He's done it at a small club and a big club, with money and without. Looking at the full achievements I'd condsider him a very strong contender for the number one spot.


Alex Ferguson

European Champions - 1
Manchester United 1999

League Champions - 12
Aberdeen 1980, 1984, 1985
Manchester United 1993, 1994, 1996, 1997, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2003

European CWC - 2
Aberdeen 1983
Manchester United 1991

Domestic Cup - 9
Aberdeen 1982, 1983, 1984, 1986
Manchester United 1990, 1994, 1996, 1999, 2004

Domestic League Cup - 3
Aberdeen 1986
Manchester United 1992, 2006

That's 27 full tournament wins in the last 27 seasons, 27 seasons is a hell of a lot of longetivity.

..plus the only British manager manager to win the Intercontinental Cup, and 2 European Super Cups.




...and he's only getting started!!! ;)

[STEVIEG]

p.s. Stevie, I would like you to withdraw your statement from the record that Villa never won the double.


Whta part of in this day and age dont you understand:)

[Rebelred]

Surely the 68 final must have given you a buzz as a 10 yr old ;)

Stevie = Larry Gogan

[STEVIEG]

FA Cup finals were only a big thing cos English sides were out of Europe. The last 10 years I'm sure clubs would rather win the lottery.


I was 9 in 1983 and it was still huge pre-Heysel
But its defo not the same since the champions league really kicked in in the late 90s

[STEVIEG]

Stevie = Larry Gogan


I was minus 6 then fuckers:)

[MonTheHoops]

Stevie = Larry Gogan

Stevie MaGee

[Lamps]

Whta part of in this day and age dont you understand:)

exposed again,

stick to the music lad

[STEVIEG]

If we're talking about the Greatest British Managers of all time Ferguson's full record needs to be looked at. ...He's done it at a small club and a big club, with money and without. Looking at the full achievements I'd condsider him a very strong contender for the number one spot.


...and he's only getting started!!! ;)


Thank you
take the baton
I'm outta here

[STEVIEG]

exposed again,

stick to the music lad


Stick to the, hang on, actually forget it

[xvis]

Playing Devil's advocate here a bit but does anyone think Ferguson's time at United hasn't been as successful as has been made out? The guy did brilliantly once the Premiership was introduced and was able to adapt to the Premiership much faster than any of his counterparts, many of whom threw money at the team in an attempt to overtake United.

In Europe though I think, Barcelona 99 aside, that his record is poor. They were consistent quarter finalists for a long time but they were the richest club in the world and that kind of dominance needs to be built on and it doesn't seem to me that it ever was.

His early career with Aberdeen is something he can be extremely proud of. He got them to a European final and took the title away from Glasgow - no mean feat. His first 10 years at United were phenomonal but towards the end of that 10 years United really should have been dominating in Europe which history will show they didn't.

Before anyone jumps down my throat, I am not saying he's a poor manager but I'm asking genuine United fans that during their period of asendancy, looking back on it do you think that United should have pulled in more than one Champions League trophy?

Again, not doubting how fantastic a manager he was, just raising the question.


Only as regards the European Cup. Looking back over the time I've always thought United were worth 2 wins, 99 and 02.

..and Ferguson has to take some criticism for this. In 97 United were nervous and this comes back a bit on Ferguson. I thought they were worthy European Champions in 99 (over the season and they wanted it more in the last 10 minutes). And they were unlucky in 02, (out on away goals, and on the way to the final at half-time in the second leg), but unlucky means nothing.

so yeah, United underachieved; were worth 2, got 1, ..and if they had Liverpools ruthlessness in Europe they would have had 3.

[FL4ZGN]

Okay so we have Ferguson as No 1.
Now lets see if we can sort out second spot from between Clough and Paisley

[MonTheHoops]

Only as regards the European Cup.

That's only as I'm regarding it. In his 27 years he's been involved mostly at the top end of the competition or thereabouts. In time it will be seen as not a good a return as it should have been. Ruthlessness is exactly what seems to have been missing in some campaigns.

[Lamps]

All these United fans remind me of Bertie, constantly changing the rules.

These are the facts.

The FA cup was a big cup competition pre-heysel and only dwindled seriously after United decided not to take part.(spare us the conspiracy lads)

The League Cup was a big competition until the early 90's

Scottish football was going through something of a transformation in the early 80's ferguson was part of this. but dundee united also reached a uefa cup final and european cup semi, won the scottish league also.

Ferguson's record with united must be judged over the course of his tenure. (20 years not his middle 10)

It must be acknowledged that despite him having a great record that he has a) had more money than anyone else(doesn't matter where they got it)
b) failed in europe (stevie this if only smeichael didn't drop the ball is nonsense considering the amount he is responsible for ye winning)

Super Cups, Intercontinetal cups, charity sheild or whatever don't mean shit.


By whatever criteria you care to apply, Clough or Paisley have better records

[MonTheHoops]

Has to be said that Scottish football in the 60s, 70s and 80s was not the farce it is today. The Scottish international side was a fine side and the likes of Dundee United and Aberdeen were not the pushovers they now are. If anything, Celtic for much of the 80s were akin to your modern day Hibs & Hearts while the 1980 Rangers team was possibly the worst ever.

[Lamps]

p.s. nobody took up my point that the double doesn't mean shit since sky took over. i've heard the reason given is that the european cup is more important these days. bullshit

was it less important to busby in 68.
leeds in 74(?)
the great ajax and bayern teams.

no the reason is that the Sky money has skewed the competitiveness of the league. teams like oxford, qpr and even york city were able to push liverpool when they won in 86. arsenal and spurs in 71/61 were isolated triumphs for big clubs.

now the big 4 steamroll everything, there's hardly ever an fa cup "giantkilling".
chelsea would probably be dissapointed this year if they only won the double

[Rebelred]

p.s. nobody took up my point that the double doesn't mean shit since sky took over. i've heard the reason given is that the european cup is more important these days. bullshit

was it less important to busby in 68.
leeds in 74(?)
the great ajax and bayern teams.

no the reason is that the Sky money has skewed the competitiveness of the league. teams like oxford, qpr and even york city were able to push liverpool when they won in 86. arsenal and spurs in 71/61 were isolated triumphs for big clubs.

now the big 4 steamroll everything, there's hardly ever an fa cup "giantkilling".
chelsea would probably be dissapointed this year if they only won the double
you're point is backed up by the fact that united did 2 doubles and a treble in the 90's and arsenal did 1 double, thats 4 doubles in total.
Compare that to the previous 100 or so years,when there were roughly a half dozen or so(couldnt be bothered looking for the exact figure) doubles altogether

[Lamps]

you're point is backed up by the fact that united did 2 doubles and a treble in the 90's and arsenal did 1 double, thats 4 doubles in total.
Compare that to the previous 100 or so years,when there were roughly a half dozen or so(couldnt be bothered looking for the exact figure) doubles altogether

arsenal actually did 2 doubles, so since sky took over there have been 5 doubles, the previous 100 years produced 5, although stevieG disputes the fact that villa won one;)

in anyone's eyes english soccer has become less competitve in this period and any records or analysis of success should take this into consideration

[FL4ZGN]

p.s. nobody took up my point that the double doesn't mean shit since sky took over. i've heard the reason given is that the european cup is more important these days. bullshit

was it less important to busby in 68.
leeds in 74(?)
the great ajax and bayern teams.

no the reason is that the Sky money has skewed the competitiveness of the league. teams like oxford, qpr and even york city were able to push liverpool when they won in 86. arsenal and spurs in 71/61 were isolated triumphs for big clubs.
now the big 4 steamroll everything, there's hardly ever an fa cup "giantkilling".
chelsea would probably be dissapointed this year if they only won the double


Tell that to Denis Wise and his Millwall side.

[Lamps]

Tell that to Denis Wise and his Millwall side.

Millwall's path to the final :wallsall/telford/burnley/tranmere/sunderland
United were the first decent side to play Millwall and tonked them.

My point stands, and this remember in a era when the big sides supposedly don't really care about the cup so much. You could try an opinion instead of nitpicking. Either way, you lose.

p.s. although Google has it's drawbacks(i.e. people with no sporting knowlegde can cog that they know shit, its handy for pointing out stiff like this cup run)

[Sound]

Okay so we have Ferguson as No 1.
Now lets see if we can sort out second spot from between Clough and Paisley

Sure we do.

[homer jay]

ABU Myth #44: Utd were rich because they went public.

Am, no. Utd were rich because they have way way more fans than anyone else in Britain, in Ireland and beyond and have done for decades and decades. The fans buy the shirts, fill OT, buy the Lee Sharpe duvets and the PLC make money. Some of which they then put back into the team but most of which went on the stadium which apart from facilitating more fans, also earned the PLC and its shareholders (principally Martin Edwards) more money.

In Ferguson's best years, you had Blackburn, Liverpool and Newcastle all spending more money (largely externally sourced from sugar daddies) than Utd did. To some degree, you could argue that part of his problem in the early years at Utd was breaking the stranglehold Liverpool with their pools money had on the English game. No surprise it took him a number of years to get his own house in order.

The only occasions that his grip on the Premiership trophy lifted over an 11 year spell was a "bought" title in 1995, one outstanding Arsenal side (the backbone of which Wenger inherited from Graham and Rioch incidentally) and one less than outstanding Arsenal side in 2002 when Utd were sleepwalking domestically as Ferguson plotted retirement playing with horsies.

At European level, Utd were up against a much higher standard of opposition over the mid to late 90s than currently seen plus they were hamstrung by a foreigner rule that would see Arsenal and Liverpool's recent successful EC sides unable to field an XI! Failing to replace Schmeichel adequately was a notable failure of Ferguson. Externally, the rise of the 'Galacticos' (a rather bizarre phenomenon funded by Madrid City council) seriously limited Utd's chances of a further EC title. To be honest, last year's Barcelona team aside, the EC has been in the doldrums since that Madrid side with very poor sides winning it outright such as Porto and Liverpool. Utd were just that much poorer again over the period. I suspect even Wenger himself was astonished his very promising young side almost won it last year. At the moment, it's now a very high profile cup competition of rather limited quality. Look at some of the hammerings being meted out already this year.

Ferguson, outstanding over about 15 of the 20 seasons he's been in charge.
Aberdeen:

3 league titles
4 Scottish cups
1 Scottish league cup
1 ECWC

Man Utd:
8 league titles
5 FA Cups
2 league cups
1 ECWC
1 EC

I don't know, I think it's very very arguable that he should be right at the top of that list myself.

One small final point. His sides have always played attractive, attacking football.

if i didn't know you believed what you posted, i'd say you were wumming.;)

[homer jay]

Tell that to Denis Wise and his Millwall side.

you just proved his point there, well done

[xvis]

Okay so we have Ferguson as No 1.
Now lets see if we can sort out second spot from between Clough and Paisley

lets not forget Cloughies bungs, relegation and being drunk on the job when we're finalising our definitive standings.
let's make this a thorough list.

[Lamps]

you just proved his point there, well done

Leave him off, none of these jokes can mix it when I decide to turn on the style.

[Lamps]

lets not forget Cloughies bungs, relegation and being drunk on the job when we're finalising our definitive standings.
let's make this a thorough list.

kottle bet plack lad.

[Actin The Sham]

What the fuck about Alf Ramsey???????



A country wins the world cup and the manager who wins it for them isn't even rated in the the top 10?


And nobody picks up on that?



Plus his achievements in the League with Ipswich, but yet again, this place degenerates into the usual pissing contest/playground bullying and self congratulation by the protagonists on either side of some imaginary INTERNET battle.


"Sports Forum" me hole.



More like "Soccer Am For Half Wits."



(Blah, blah, FFS, blah blah, You Know Nothing About Arguing, blah blah, Mockery, blah blah blah.......ad nauseum).


Regards,

Nimic.

:)

[Lamps]

I wouldn't claim to be an expert on the subject, but I've heard many of the 66 players didn't rate him. Didn't think much of him tactically (wingless wonders or not) and said he was pretty uninspiring. Can't dispute his record though.

[mart]

lets not forget Cloughies bungs, relegation and being drunk on the job when we're finalising our definitive standings.
let's make this a thorough list.

It was clear that it would be his last season in charge any ways the year they were relegated. And the rest, who cares, I'd rate him over any other manager!

[homer jay]

ad nauseum).


you know nothing about latin ffs mockery :)

[Actin The Sham]

I wouldn't claim to be an expert on the subject, but I've heard many of the 66 players didn't rate him. Didn't think much of him tactically (wingless wonders or not) and said he was pretty uninspiring. Can't dispute his record though.

At last, a positive contribution which makes perfect sense. I also still think that Don Revie should be in the top ten, but would agree with your judgement regarding Cloughie.

[MonTheHoops]

At last, a positive contribution which makes perfect sense. I also still think that Don Revie should be in the top ten, but would agree with your judgement regarding Cloughie.


I mentioned this side already

That Leeds team is one of the most talked up sides ever. When initially hearing about them, and how Revie is revered, I believed they'd made a clean sweep of everyone who crossed their path in the 70s, soccer's answer to the Harlem Globetrotters.


All the talk of that side surrounds Billy Bremner. From reading between the lines of the stories I've read, he wasn't the world beater people would have you believe. Also, Terry Cooper is one of the main names of that Leeds side. He was torn a new one by a certain J. Johnstone when both sides met.

[Lamps]

At last, a positive contribution which makes perfect sense. I also still think that Don Revie should be in the top ten, but would agree with your judgement regarding Cloughie.

On what grounds Revie, 2 league titles and an FA cup. Could get England to a world cup finals. I believe that the era of the tv pundit gave him his rep.

Mainly because clowns like Rodney Marsh still say how great a side they were.

[MonTheHoops]

Mainly because clowns like Rodney Marsh still say how great a side they were.


I nearly got sick one morning watching Sky when they had Best & Marsh on Goals on Sunday. That fawning sheep Rob Maynard was talking about that "great Fulham side" that had Marsh and Best running rings around their opponents.

[alpha]

Rodney Marsh is a twat! Always has been, always will be. He really doesn't have a clue what he's talking about, and kisses ass!

[Lamps]

I nearly got sick one morning watching Sky when they had Best & Marsh on Goals on Sunday. That fawning sheep Rob Maynard was talking about that "great Fulham side" that had Marsh and Best running rings around their opponents.

that old chestnut. never saw marsh play but i have been assured that he was shit. the tony daly of the 70's

Nine england caps when england had their worst team in 30 years.

[MonTheHoops]

that old chestnut. never saw marsh play but i have been assured that he was shit. the tony daly of the 70's

Nine england caps when england had their worst team in 30 years.
I don't remember what Robbie Savage said about him but it was spot on. Something about Marsh calling Savage a nancy boy and Savage responding saying that his old man remembered Marsh playing and said he was the most yellow player you could see.

I wouldn't say Tony Cottee, but I would say someone who also has an Everton link - James McFadden. Capable of having a great game on occasion but won't see time at a bigger club than Everton (Marsh at QPR)

And then you see morons like Kamara & Maynard fawning over them.

[xvis]

kottle bet plack lad.

except for real factual matters of..


real guilt of bungs
relegation
actual alcoholism in the job

[FL4ZGN]

I don't remember what Robbie Savage said about him but it was spot on. Something about Marsh calling Savage a nancy boy and Savage responding saying that his old man remembered Marsh playing and said he was the most yellow player you could see.

I wouldn't say Tony Cottee, but I would say someone who also has an Everton link - James McFadden. Capable of having a great game on occasion but won't see time at a bigger club than Everton (Marsh at QPR)

And then you see morons like Kamara & Maynard fawning over them.


Johnathon Greening has a Champions League winners medal.

[MonTheHoops]

except for real factual matters of..


real guilt of bungs


Magnier & McManus' 99 questions might hold the answer to that one. Do United still deal with Elite????? I very much doubt it.

[FL4ZGN]

In fairness lads Rodney Marsh was a twat but i read one of his books on holiday a few years back (i didnt buy this book) and had to laugh at his reason from being dropped from the England setup by Alf Ramsey.

According to Marsh, Sir Alf said something like " I'll be watching you for the first half and if you don't work harder I'll pull you off at halftime," to which Marsh replied: “Crikey, Alf, at Manchester City all we get is an orange and a cup of tea.”

[Lamps]

I wouldn't say Tony Cottee, but I would say someone who also has an Everton link - James McFadden. Capable of having a great game on occasion but won't see time at a bigger club than Everton (Marsh at QPR)


Tony Daly MON, i wouldn't blame you if you've forgotten. Headless chicken, Villa wide man, made a few mazy dribbles, scored some nice goals, but not a great player.

Pretty sure he played down the cross in Ireland v England B bout 15 years ago.

I realise this influx of SFI soccer prowess and knowledge is probably too much for all the jokers on this site. Don't be afraid lads.

[Lamps]

In fairness lads Rodney Marsh was a twat but i read one of his books on holiday a few years back (i didnt buy this book) and had to laugh at his reason from being dropped from the England setup by Alf Ramsey.

According to Marsh, Sir Alf said something like " I'll be watching you for the first half and if you don't work harder I'll pull you off at halftime," to which Marsh replied: “Crikey, Alf, at Manchester City all we get is an orange and a cup of tea.”

Bet it's not true though. The clown Prince of English football indeed.

[MonTheHoops]

Tony Daly MON, i wouldn't blame you if you've forgotten. Headless chicken, Villa wide man, made a few mazy dribbles, scored some nice goals, but not a great player.



Yes I must have read your post too quick.

He's a fitness coach at Villa now - was before MON took over anyway.

[FL4ZGN]

Tony Daly MON, i wouldn't blame you if you've forgotten. Headless chicken, Villa wide man, made a few mazy dribbles, scored some nice goals, but not a great player.

Pretty sure he played down the cross in Ireland v England B bout 15 years ago.

I realise this influx of SFI soccer prowess and knowledge is probably too much for all the jokers on this site. Don't be afraid lads.


I watched Tony Daly live when you were cycling around with a milk carton down the back wheel of your bike.

[FL4ZGN]

Bet it's not true though. The clown Prince of English football indeed.

Ther must be some merit to it.

[alpha]

except for real factual matters of..


real guilt of bungs
relegation
actual alcoholism in the job


Ya but whats YOUR problem with him??? Bungs are going on all the time, he just got caught. Relegation? 1 relegation after 17 years on the job! Alcoholism, thats a personal problem. Jesus man!!!

[Jim Comic]

except for real factual matters of..


real guilt of bungs
relegation
actual alcoholism in the job



brian clough was a football genius, end of story - everything else is irrelevant

[xvis]

Ya but whats YOUR problem with him??? Bungs are going on all the time, he just got caught. Relegation? 1 relegation after 17 years on the job! Alcoholism, thats a personal problem. Jesus man!!!

I don't have a problem with him.

Lamps was placing Clough and Paisley ahead of Ferguson and I was looking for some justification.

I don't think Cloughs overall record is anywhere near good enough compared to Ferguson.
If Clough was truly one of the greatest managers of the British game, answer this question, and this is to Lamps too...

where were all the League challenges to Liverpool greatness between 1975 and 1990????

..1 league title!


..he was barely putting together any challenge throughout the eighties.
...and this is before Liverpool had any sky money!



I'd have Clough ranked highly, about 4th or 5th. 2 leagues and 2 European Cups.


..regarding the other stuff, there's no excuse for bungs, and alcoholism is not just personal when it starts to affect your work.

[xvis]

Magnier & McManus' 99 questions might hold the answer to that one. Do United still deal with Elite????? I very much doubt it.

thay were being a nuisance, applying pressure over horses spunk.
never any question of Ferguson and bungs.

[MonTheHoops]

thay were being a nuisance, applying pressure over horses spunk.
never any question of Ferguson and bungs.


I'm pretty sure many of the 99 questions focussed on Ferguson junior's role in more than one transfer.

[STEVIEG]

No, liverpool were the last team to do an actual double.




I admit I didn't realise Villa had done the double (in the 19th Century) but how about a bump for this

[Rebelred]

I'm pretty sure many of the 99 questions focussed on Ferguson junior's role in more than one transfer.
anybody ever see this documentary by Fergies favourite pals... the BBC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2004/05_may/25/fergie_son.shtml

[xvis]

I'm pretty sure many of the 99 questions focussed on Ferguson junior's role in more than one transfer.

yes, sorted, none dealing with Ferguson himself.

if anyone has criminal allegations against Ferguson please specify, otherwise we can get back to discussing managerial merits.



having thought about it..

I'd rank Chapman, Busby, Shankly, Paisley and Ferguson above Clough,
so I'd rank Clough 6th at best.

[Up For The Ba]

Imagine if Watford won the Premiership this year, or Reading. That's what Ramsey achieved with Ipswich.

Thats not a realistic comparison IMO. There is always going to be far too big a bridge from now on between promoted clubs and the top 4 unless the promoted club gets a serious injection of cash. In this day and age do you honestly think a promoted side will ever win the Premiership unless that happens?? Impossible, and I dont dont think Watford would be pushing it today if Ramsay here at the helm.

[Lamps]

If Clough was truly one of the greatest managers of the British game, answer this question, and this is to Lamps too...

where were all the League challenges to Liverpool greatness between 1975 and 1990????

..1 league title!



You are blinded by hype my friend. In that period he won 1 league and 2 european cups, BUT was facing probably the best english side(s) of all time.

He did tail off towards the end. But you must remember that he did build a decent side also in the late 80's full of youngsters which pushed the famous 87 Liverpool team to some very close games, until the THAT 5-0 game.

You also omit the young derby team that won the title and broke up after he left. And seem unable to comprehend that this was done as Jim mentions with provincial teams.

He also instilled a sense of decency and fair play in his players that shames most managers of the day. He wouldn't stand for the chasing the ref around the pitch carry on that fergie condones.

So you ask the questoin was clough truly one of the great managers of the game? the obvious answer is yes. The tone of your question suggests you think otherwise, in which case you know nothing, absolutely nothing, about sport.

[Lamps]

I admit I didn't realise Villa had done the double (in the 19th Century) but how about a bump for this

Stevie, anyone can cherry pick parts of a post. I quailfied my statement with an explanation. You are entering LAME territory now, if you cannot handle a proper debate, then stop spamming, it makes you look bad.

Do you agree with my suggestion that english soccer has become less competitive since Sky took over?

[STEVIEG]

Stevie, anyone can cherry pick parts of a post. I quailfied my statement with an explanation. You are entering LAME territory now, if you cannot handle a proper debate, then stop spamming, it makes you look bad.

Do you agree with my suggestion that english soccer has become less competitive since Sky took over?


Nope, it's harder to win now

And you are hardly a man to take the moral highground on cherry picking parts of arguments

[STEVIEG]

He also instilled a sense of decency and fair play in his players that shames most managers of the day. He wouldn't stand for the chasing the ref around the pitch carry on that fergie condones.




Excuse me while i break my hole laughing
Is this the same guy who had his players running through nettles?

[STEVIEG]

, BUT was facing probably the best english side(s) of all time.



Well what about Fergie who was facing the mighty Wenger over the last ten years (some great teams, one which went a league season unbeaten) and still has a superior league record to him

[xvis]

You are blinded by hype my friend. In that period he won 1 league and 2 european cups, BUT was facing probably the best english side(s) of all time.

He did tail off towards the end. But you must remember that he did build a decent side also in the late 80's full of youngsters which pushed the famous 87 Liverpool team to some very close games, until the THAT 5-0 game.
1 league, as I said. ...but I repeat where were the league challenges throughout the eighties?? It's not like they were just getting edged out to second by Liverpool every year. That didn't happen.
..that 87 Liverpool team that finished behind Everton? ..or do you mean the 88 Liverpool side that finished ahead of Fergusons United?
..Cloughies late 80's side were only a bunch of League Cup chasers.


You also omit the young derby team that won the title and broke up after he left. And seem unable to comprehend that this was done as Jim mentions with provincial teams.
I omitted this because it was before the mentioned Liverpool period of dominance. Aberdeen are equally if not more provincal than Nottingham.
..and Nottingham is quite a reasonably sized city, ..much larger compared to say Ipswich.


He also instilled a sense of decency and fair play in his players that shames most managers of the day. He wouldn't stand for the chasing the ref around the pitch carry on that fergie condones.
..bungs my friend. bungs is cheating the supporters of your own club.


So you ask the questoin was clough truly one of the great managers of the game? the obvious answer is yes. The tone of your question suggests you think otherwise, in which case you know nothing, absolutely nothing, about sport.

Cloughie and Forest had a magnificent 18 month run, otherwise Paisley wiped the floor with him.

Do you seriously rank Clough in the top one or two of all time? ...seriously??
I'm not saying he wasn't great, I'm placing him 6th on my list.


You also mentioned earlier Dundee Uniteds success in Europe in the early 80's by way to diminish Fergusons achievement with Aberdeen, ...does this not also diminish Cloughs and Paisleys European achievements around the same time?

[mart]

Ah in the late 80's Forest pushed for the title the year Arsenal won it, only to fall short a few games from the end. They finished 3rd that season.

Fuck sake man lighten up a bit, everyone has their own opinion. Ya Paisley was a great manager. In my eye(because I follow Forest) Clough was the best, because winning 2 European Cups and a League after promotion is a fair acheivement. Especially with the size of the squad he had and so on and so on. Thats as much as I'm ever going to see Forest win in my lifetime (i hope im wrong), so of course i'll always think he was the best! Same as you, obviuosly a scouse fan, thinks of paisley. And united fans think of Ferguson. Jeez, Celtic fans think Martin O'Neill's a legend, after a couple of league titles and a Uefa Cup final appearance. Same as Arsenal fans with Wenger and Spurs fans with Santini, wait a sec.......

[Lamps]

Xvis, I'm not getting into a day long point for point spat, but fair play for constructing decent arguments for Fergie, unlike a certain Stevie2Me.

Clough won 2 titles and 2 European cups with 2 provincial clubs.
The Derby team he left behind also won another title.

These are the facts. In my book this puts him in the top 2 managers in the English game. I think I probably would have paisley as number 1.

I'm not dimishing Fergsuons record mentioning Dundee United, I was just introducing some context. Scottish football was strong at the time. The same could not happen today, just like Clough couldn't take Forest to a champions league.

[alpha]

Yeah aparently they thought Gary Megson was going to do that for them.

[STEVIEG]

Xvis, I'm not getting into a day long point for point spat, but fair play for constructing decent arguments for Fergie, unlike a certain Stevie2Me.

.


http://i12.tinypic.com/2vl8qag.jpg

You are out of your depth
He destroyed ya
Hand in your resignation immediately your chronic and smalltime ABUism is showing up
Even the least reasonable football fans will recognise the achievments of Fergie
The SFI should stick to subjects with which it actually has some knowledge about
http://www.peoplesrepublico fcork.com/~peoplesr/forums/showthread.php?t=845 48






































Only messing, keep going, it's amusing:)

[Lamps]

Stevie, do you expect me to claim that Clough won wore than Paisley or Fergie?

If you checked back to one of my first posts on the subject then I said what they won, the time they were there and the size of the club should be determining factors.

Based on this I'd have Cloughie and Paisley at the top. Its amazing the bitterness of the United Fans in accepting this. Fergie had 20 years at the "biggest club in the world" and won 1 european cup(Keane and Ferguson both agree that the european cup is the barometer for greatness)

End of discussion

[STEVIEG]

Its amazing the bitterness of the United Fans in accepting this.

All United fans agree he could have won even more
But only the most bitter ABU's will decline to give Fergie any credit whatsoever
End of story

[POL]

you know steve is finished when he tries to wum you

[STEVIEG]

you know steve is finished when he tries to wum you


It's been fun
Enjoy the weekend

[ho chi feen]

Stevie2Me.


Heh heh heh...

[STEVIEG]

Juddddddaaaaaaaaasss ssssssssssssssssssss s

[Actin The Sham]

I'd say someone else will come along in December and ask a similar question.