Man Utd discipline

[St_Cyrill_of_Tyrrenhaes]

Just been looking through the stats on the current Man Utd team, particularly their disciplinary record. Of the fifty odd in the current squad, 25 have never been sent off. In terms of regular first team players the only ones to have been sent off are Neville (3), Ferdinand (1), Brown (1), Ronaldo (2, surprisingly enough), Rooney (1), Smith (1), Scholes (3), Solskjaer (1), Fletcher (2), and Silvestre (1).

Is it just me or do these figures point to a distinct lack of hard men in the first eleven? Now, I'm not advocating a return to the glory days of 1970s Leeds, but Robson, Pallister, Bruce, Keane, Ince, Hughes, Moran, McGrath, Cantona, et al all got sent off way more than that and contributed much more to the team. I'm beginning to think that the reason Fergie's lost his way in the transfer market over the past five or six years is his reluctance to sign hard men. When Keane started to go downhill it was the end of a long line of United hard men, people who weren't afraid to get stuck in to the opposition on rainy midweek games in January.

You can sign all the Ronaldos you want, but United have always had a few nutcases and, in my opinion, that's what's missing most at the moment. He should have tried everything he could to sign Gattuso.

[Rebelred]

don't think you can put it down to any one thing in particular, Fergie has been losing his tyrant style grip of control on the players for quite a while now, although I have to admit the most exciting United team I can remember was the 93/94 team, which contained alot of the hard bastards you mentioned. Standards have slipped since 2002 in particular, and the rebuilding process is realistically going to take some time, whether Fergie is the man to do it remains open to question.
Gattuso would be an addition to any team, but with Milan somehow pulling a houdini act in the match fixing scandal, none of their players (sheva aside) were ever going to be available for transfer

[St_Cyrill_of_Tyrrenhaes]

I don't know. I've always thought that the truly great club managers never really achieved anything on their own. If you look at Shankly, Clough, Ferguson, Wenger, Lippi and so on, they always had at least one enforcer on the pitch when they enjoyed their greatest success. Ferguson doesn't have anyone like that at the moment (although there's a slight possibility that Rooney could one day grow into that role).

As to Gattuso, I reckon that if the money's right, any player is available. Christ, if they can afford to budget almost nineteen million for Carrick, where's the harm in paying twenty five million for Gattuso? An opportunity lost, IMO.

[STEVIEG]

Gattuso doesn't want to leave and he's very expensive as you say

Carrick is a different player and (for the last time) he is nearer to 13 or 14 million at the moment, 12 of which was provided by chelsea for nothing

Senna is more similar to Gattuso and he is being bought (apparently)
He should fill that role for a couple of years and by then Darron Gibson, David Jones and Richie Jones might well be available, and dare i say it, uniteds best player in pre-season, Darren Fletcher, might have improved up to the level they need there

[STEVIEG]

On another note, good to see Uniteds worst tackler has still got his head screwed on

http://home.skysports.com/list.asp?hlid=408488&CPID=219&clid=114&lid=4161&title=Scholes+rules+ out+return

[STEVIEG]

Don't mind the shittiness of the article but check the quotes from Senna Cyril, you might be pleased:)

MARCOS SENNA is on his way to Manchester United from Villarreal — and has vowed to kick butt.

The Red Devils were given permission yesterday to speak to the tough midfielder after agreeing a £4million fee with the Spaniards.

Senna, 30, will sign a three-year deal worth £4.5m in wages and is expected to be unveiled as a United player this week.

He could even be at their open training session at Old Trafford on Friday at 11am.

United boss Alex Ferguson sees Brazil-born Senna, who played for Spain in the World Cup, as the perfect tough midfielder to complement the skills of Michael Carrick.

And last season Senna proved he has the b***s for a battle after playing almost a full Champions League game with blood oozing from his groin.

He took a whack between the legs in a tackle against Inter Milan but refused to go off — despite his yellow shorts turning red.

Opponents had better get ready for this fearsome figure, who admits his idol is former Brazil hardman Dunga.

Senna’s approach to football seems to be foul first and ask questions later.

And he said: “If I could be like Dunga I would be very happy. He could control a match and knew how to foul.”

Senna says he is not out to maim, just disrupt a game.

He said: “It’s part of the game. I don’t mean ugly fouls that can cause injury.

“Sometimes with a strong challenge you have to be ready to give your team the chance to reorganise and disrupt the rhythm of the opposition.”

These words will raise eyebrows at United, who had two players sent off on Friday.

They are waiting to hear the fate of Wayne Rooney and Paul Scholes following their red cards against Porto in the Amsterdam Tournament.

If United appeal it is likely Rooney will be let off for his supposed push in the face of defender Pepe. But Scholes may be banned for the scything challenge on Quaresma that even Fergie slated.

Senna believes in England you can get away with fouls more than you can in Spain.

He added: “English referees are the best. They let much more go than in Spain. It’s fantastic.”

[Rebelred]

I'm liking Senna already

[holyfeetholyfingers]

Your right. theres definately a change in man utd. in the past the likes of ferdinand and ronaldo would have been shipped off or thumped into line for their atitudes, but now fergo cant afford to lose them. blame chelsea huh?

[St_Cyrill_of_Tyrrenhaes]

Gattuso doesn't want to leave and he's very expensive as you say

Carrick is a different player and (for the last time) he is nearer to 13 or 14 million at the moment, 12 of which was provided by chelsea for nothing

Senna is more similar to Gattuso and he is being bought (apparently)
He should fill that role for a couple of years and by then Darron Gibson, David Jones and Richie Jones might well be available, and dare i say it, uniteds best player in pre-season, Darren Fletcher, might have improved up to the level they need there

The point is that, as I said, they nonetheless have to *budget* for nigh on nineteen million quid.

And in fairness, comparing Fletcher to the likes of Robson and Keane is just silly.

[St_Cyrill_of_Tyrrenhaes]

If Senna turns out to be a traditional hard man I'll be delighted. I'll admit that I don't know much about him though.

[holyfeetholyfingers]

If Senna turns out to be a traditional hard man I'll be delighted. I'll admit that I don't know much about him though.

he needs to be the gattuso and carrick the pirlo (obviously not as good though)

[KolaKubes]

I think he's a great player going on what I saw of him last year. Not a long term solution though, that's Darren Gibson.

[Philby]

uniteds best player in pre-season, Darren Fletcher, might have improved up to the level they need there

Fletcher is nowhere near good enough to hold down midfield spot for a club as big as United. Nowhere near.

http://www.raiuno.rai.it/Static/immagine/lesignoredelgiallo_e venti2.jpg

[Rebelred]

Fletcher is nowhere near good enough to hold down midfield spot for a club as big as United. Nowhere near.

http://www.raiuno.rai.it/Static/immagine/lesignoredelgiallo_e venti2.jpg
agreed.

[STEVIEG]

And in fairness, comparing Fletcher to the likes of Robson and Keane is just silly.


I don't see where the comparison was made

[STEVIEG]

Fletcher is nowhere near good enough to hold down midfield spot for a club as big as United. Nowhere near.

http://www.raiuno.rai.it/Static/immagine/lesignoredelgiallo_e venti2.jpg


In three years it might be different as he will be of similar age to Gerrard, Lampard and co now
I doubt it but those at the club (who know a lot more about these things than us) are giving him the chance

[STEVIEG]

If Senna turns out to be a traditional hard man I'll be delighted. I'll admit that I don't know much about him though.


Yeah it's just one side of his game
A lot of people are simplfying it but both Senna and Carrick have got both attacking and defending qualities
Senna used to be an attcaking midfielder and can score a goal too, but he is now a good holding player
Carrick doesn't score much but he retains possession, is a good passer and can tackle, so the two of them and Scholes will defo give United more than last year

[Philby]

In three years it might be different as he will be of similar age to Gerrard, Lampard and co now
I doubt it but those at the club (who know a lot more about these things than us) are giving him the chance

Perhaps that's just due to the dearth in central midfield quality at the club. If United had Scholes, Keane & Butt in their pomp Fletcher would be lucky to get a match ticket to sit in the stands.

Lampard (and especially Gerrard) showed far greater potential at Fletcher's age than Jessica has.

From seeing him many many times I've yet to pick out any element of his game that is significantly above average.

[STEVIEG]

Perhaps that's just due to the dearth in central midfield quality at the club. If United had Scholes, Keane & Butt in their pomp Fletcher would be lucky to get a match ticket to sit in the stands.

Lampard (and especially Gerrard) showed far greater potential at Fletcher's age than Jessica has.

From seeing him many many times I've yet to pick out any element of his game that is significantly above average.


Lampard no, Gerrard yes
I'd trust the club to know a lot more than me and you
I have watched pre-season and he's been very good but he is only a squad player for me overall
Pre-season doesn't really tell much
But i'm sure you don't need me to tell you that:)

[St_Cyrill_of_Tyrrenhaes]

I don't see where the comparison was made

I thought you were implying that after Senna retires then Fletcher would be able to take over his role. If not, then fair enough.

I'd love to see it happen and I'll be the first to eat my words if it does, but I just can't see Fletcher being anything other than a fringe player at United. I reckon this is particularly true if and when Ferguson goes since new managers generally tend to look at the midfield as soon as they take over a club.