There is a problem (United related)

[FL4ZGN]

Wrote this as a 'brain dump' - can't get my head together at the moment. No
structure, no grammar - just an outpouring that I have been wanting to do
for ages and just couldn't make a start on. I had to do it by way of an
apology (to a fellow Red) as it happens.

I'm just SO pissed off with the whole situation. There is NO doubt in my
mind that there are certain groups (some within us) that ARE Glazer
'apologists' - Glazer 'supporters'. What the justification is I know not -
I think they fall into several categories.

Let us take the SEFlags group for instance. Mostly decent people, proper
Reds. But either they are totally misguided and naive, OR they are
ingratiating themselves with that twat Gill in order to curry some sort of
favour with those absolute cunts.

Gill and his mates are slippery, slimy sods who know how to play the game.
Asking for the flags to be replaced at the Stretford End was a part of
their "Look everything's alright under the Glazers" strategy. SEFlags fell
right into their hands. Gill MUST have been thrilled to bits to have a
group of Reds 'on his side'. Theirs was a BIG misjudgment which they will,
in the fullness of time, come to regret. Knowing some of them as I do, I
KNOW that.

Also there can be no doubt that they (the Board/Glazer) WILL have 'plants'
on this and other Lists/Forums. These people are the ones of the 'let us
wait and see' brigade. These are the ones saying that Glazer and his
bastard spawn will ultimately be good for the Club.

Even our cat, Bert, knows that that will NOT be the case. Glazer is the end
for our Club. I have never been more certain of anything in my life.

There is nothing to 'WAIT' for. It is HERE - it HAS happened. We owe so
much money that there is not a hope in hell that we are going in any
direction but 'down' as did Leeds United.

Where is the money going to come from to pay back such HUGE debts?

The bubble has burst as far as football is concerned. I judge this by
looking at the two Clubs I have ALWAYS used as the benchmark. Manchester
United is not one of those Clubs. Manchester United has ALWAYS been the
best supported Club in the land. When I was a boy it was because we were
totally committed Reds - these days it is because of the day-trippers. No,
the two Clubs are Aston Villa and Sunderland. When they can't draw a crowd
then there IS a problem.

There IS a problem.

The FA, PL and the Clubs HAVE to put out positive spin for not to do would
be to admit to the problem and thus widen the existing cracks. At Old
Trafford, Anson is so typical of this type of bollocks spin merchant.
Evidence his 'positive' statements relating to the several major setbacks
for our Club recently. On the other hand Townsend (the OT publicity man)
is, I think, a decent man and he has been far less obvious is spouting the
shite. But you KNOW that should push come to shove Townsend would be just
as bad as the rest for he has to protect his arse too.

What the FA, PL, nor Gill and his twat mates will NEVER understand is that
day-trippers will piss off as quickly as they arrived. For the DT's it is
nothing more than a fad. Once the novelty is gone so will they be.

I've seen it happen before. There were DT's of a different type in the
60's. DT's for a specific reason. Once the going got tough - either results
or hooliganism - they disappeared.

The statistics prove me correct.

We, on the other hand, will always be 'there'. I put the 'there' in speech
marks because it will not be long before I can't afford to go to Old
Trafford any more. Gill and Anson will be delighted to see me piss off as
they will fill my seat with a megastore-spending, daytripper. They will rub their hands. I wonder if they might actually pay me to piss off.

Makes you think doesn't it.

But what will happen when the Club has gone a few years without winning
anything (significant). It happened for me between 1969 and 1993. It NEVER
stopped me from going. Even Sexton, who took me to the edge, failed to do
that.

But will it stop the DT's? OF COURSE IT BLOODY WILL.

And what happens to Manchester United then? What happens when I'm priced
out and the DT's have stopped going. Who pays back the loan then?

Might it be shirt sales in the USA or the Far East? My arse. There is more
chance of me becoming the next Pope than that happening.

The American market is 'saturated'. There is far too much vested interest
to EVER allow football (soccer) to get established big time there (other
than kids and women). And if it did take off (it won't) then it might well
be Chelsea and the Scousers who are ready to cash in. No, in the USA the
base we have (and they are ALL fantastic and dedicated Reds) is what we
will have for the foreseeable future.

As for the Far East - well if you are earning sixpence a week and a shirt
(from the Club) costs £40 are you going to buy one? Er..... no. Feeding
your family might be of greater importance. (In many respects my own
situation if (IF!!!!!) they increase ticket prices again). You might,
however, buy a 'copy' shirt from your mate round the corner for twopence.

But would Gill and Anson admit that? Of course they wouldn't - BECAUSE they
can't fucking see it - that's why.

Or they CAN see it and will ignore it for as long as they can as they want
to stay in post until they can line up a more lucrative position in another
company. Manchester United means fuck all to them. It is merely a stepping
stone in their career progression.

Will they care that a poor, working-class lad will have to stop going after
over FIFTY years of TOTAL support. Will they fuck. They'll just look down
on the poor boy. They, after all, are very rich men. Where has that money
come from. Oh yes - the poor boy and his mates. What twats they are.

The Board KNEW that the shirt-sales thing had come to an end. They told
Glazer that much. Letting Beckham go gave Madrid the shirt-sales anyway.
Glazer, being an arrogant twat (and a bully-boy), of course, thought he
knew better. Perhaps Glazer will discount shirts out of his own pocket for
those in the poorer places. Perhaps Glazer will tell me "I'll discount your
ST so Bert et al can have their cat food". Perhaps that 'cow WILL fly over
the moon'!

Am I alone in seeing all this? I don't think I am and in many respects that
hurts me even more. If only we could ALL come together. If only we could
ALL stop Glazer - THEN perhaps things might be different. There is NO doubt
in my mind that for that to happen we have to sink right down. We have to
go down and then rebuild. But what would come out of that would be
something so strong that NOTHING AND/OR NOBODY could EVER do this to us again.

As you buy that replica shirt think about that. As you sup the sponsors ale
think about that. As you have Pepsi and not Coke think about that.

We COULD do it if we ALL did it together. If we were ALL UNITED.

Wouldn't that be a good thing?

My grandad did it in the early years of the last century. He gave what he
had (oh, so little - but that is another story) to help the Cause. He
FOUGHT that FIGHT.

And so will I - for as long as I breathe.

Anyway enough. I hate having to write this crap - my heart breaks.
Manchester United is more than my life - it is my fabric - it is my soul.

It is dying. And with it - myself.

Keep the faith, TBT

[Eoin]

Did you actually write all that????

[Superior]

Manchester United is more than my life - it is my fabric - it is my soul.

It is dying. And with it - myself.

Keep the faith, TBT


MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

What a twat! Any of you other Man U serfs feel the same? Is Glazer placing your soul in turmoil? Christ on a bike!

[Sound]

I'll bet you were tearing your soul apart when Ruud, Rio and Veron arrived for a gazillion quid as well. All that had to be done to avoid all this is not turn into a PLC.

[FL4ZGN]

Did you actually write all that????


Sad i know, but how i feel.

Since i moved back to Ireland i only get over four or five times a season but its turning into a fucking travesty and the sooner those yank twats fuck off the better.

[Sound]

FFS WHOOSH!!!!! Wah, wah we sold our soul to the devil and it all went wrong. Quelle fucking surprise! Will ye ever stop whinging and just suck it up. When it was happening, everyone said that it was a bad move for Utd and, especially, for football. But the board persisted and there wasn't a word from Utd fans as long as the titles kept coming and the big players followed. Well now, for better or worse, Utd and the rest of the league are stuck with it.

[Coin]

Sad i know, but how i feel.

Since i moved back to Ireland i only get over four or five times a season but its turning into a fucking travesty and the sooner those yank twats fuck off the better.
Didn't realise you were coming up on 60. Had you pegged as early 40's.

[STEVIEG]

Didn't realise you were coming up on 60. Had you pegged as early 40's.

heh heh heh!

[KolaKubes]

I'll bet you were tearing your soul apart when Ruud, Rio and Veron arrived for a gazillion quid as well. All that had to be done to avoid all this is not turn into a PLC.

The main culprit and principal beneficiary of the move to the PLC was Martin Edwards NOT the club. All the efforts to turn the club into a "well-run business", avoiding the debt that rivals like Madrid were racking up while bringing in top players only served to keep Edwards' stock nice and juicy and ultimately made us ripe for a takeover by an "investor" like Glazer. We, the fans and the football club itself, have been fucked over so don't give me the "ye had it coming to ye" argument". Dave Whelan was offered Utd for £12 million in 89/90, we didn't float for much more than that and have been paying for ground improvements from profits (i.e. fans' money) since then.

[ho chi feen]

Wrote this as a 'brain dump' - can't get my head together at the moment. No
structure, no grammar - just an outpouring that I have been wanting to do
for ages and just couldn't make a start on. I had to do it by way of an
apology (to a fellow Red) as it happens.

I'm just SO pissed off with the whole situation. There is NO doubt in my
mind that there are certain groups (some within us) that ARE Glazer
'apologists' - Glazer 'supporters'. What the justification is I know not -
I think they fall into several categories.

Let us take the SEFlags group for instance. Mostly decent people, proper
Reds. But either they are totally misguided and naive, OR they are
ingratiating themselves with that twat Gill in order to curry some sort of
favour with those absolute cunts.

Gill and his mates are slippery, slimy sods who know how to play the game.
Asking for the flags to be replaced at the Stretford End was a part of
their "Look everything's alright under the Glazers" strategy. SEFlags fell
right into their hands. Gill MUST have been thrilled to bits to have a
group of Reds 'on his side'. Theirs was a BIG misjudgment which they will,
in the fullness of time, come to regret. Knowing some of them as I do, I
KNOW that.

Also there can be no doubt that they (the Board/Glazer) WILL have 'plants'
on this and other Lists/Forums. These people are the ones of the 'let us
wait and see' brigade. These are the ones saying that Glazer and his
bastard spawn will ultimately be good for the Club.

Even our cat, Bert, knows that that will NOT be the case. Glazer is the end
for our Club. I have never been more certain of anything in my life.

There is nothing to 'WAIT' for. It is HERE - it HAS happened. We owe so
much money that there is not a hope in hell that we are going in any
direction but 'down' as did Leeds United.

Where is the money going to come from to pay back such HUGE debts?

The bubble has burst as far as football is concerned. I judge this by
looking at the two Clubs I have ALWAYS used as the benchmark. Manchester
United is not one of those Clubs. Manchester United has ALWAYS been the
best supported Club in the land. When I was a boy it was because we were
totally committed Reds - these days it is because of the day-trippers. No,
the two Clubs are Aston Villa and Sunderland. When they can't draw a crowd
then there IS a problem.

There IS a problem.

The FA, PL and the Clubs HAVE to put out positive spin for not to do would
be to admit to the problem and thus widen the existing cracks. At Old
Trafford, Anson is so typical of this type of bollocks spin merchant.
Evidence his 'positive' statements relating to the several major setbacks
for our Club recently. On the other hand Townsend (the OT publicity man)
is, I think, a decent man and he has been far less obvious is spouting the
shite. But you KNOW that should push come to shove Townsend would be just
as bad as the rest for he has to protect his arse too.

What the FA, PL, nor Gill and his twat mates will NEVER understand is that
day-trippers will piss off as quickly as they arrived. For the DT's it is
nothing more than a fad. Once the novelty is gone so will they be.

I've seen it happen before. There were DT's of a different type in the
60's. DT's for a specific reason. Once the going got tough - either results
or hooliganism - they disappeared.

The statistics prove me correct.

We, on the other hand, will always be 'there'. I put the 'there' in speech
marks because it will not be long before I can't afford to go to Old
Trafford any more. Gill and Anson will be delighted to see me piss off as
they will fill my seat with a megastore-spending, daytripper. They will rub their hands. I wonder if they might actually pay me to piss off.

Makes you think doesn't it.

But what will happen when the Club has gone a few years without winning
anything (significant). It happened for me between 1969 and 1993. It NEVER
stopped me from going. Even Sexton, who took me to the edge, failed to do
that.

But will it stop the DT's? OF COURSE IT BLOODY WILL.

And what happens to Manchester United then? What happens when I'm priced
out and the DT's have stopped going. Who pays back the loan then?

Might it be shirt sales in the USA or the Far East? My arse. There is more
chance of me becoming the next Pope than that happening.

The American market is 'saturated'. There is far too much vested interest
to EVER allow football (soccer) to get established big time there (other
than kids and women). And if it did take off (it won't) then it might well
be Chelsea and the Scousers who are ready to cash in. No, in the USA the
base we have (and they are ALL fantastic and dedicated Reds) is what we
will have for the foreseeable future.

As for the Far East - well if you are earning sixpence a week and a shirt
(from the Club) costs £40 are you going to buy one? Er..... no. Feeding
your family might be of greater importance. (In many respects my own
situation if (IF!!!!!) they increase ticket prices again). You might,
however, buy a 'copy' shirt from your mate round the corner for twopence.

But would Gill and Anson admit that? Of course they wouldn't - BECAUSE they
can't fucking see it - that's why.

Or they CAN see it and will ignore it for as long as they can as they want
to stay in post until they can line up a more lucrative position in another
company. Manchester United means fuck all to them. It is merely a stepping
stone in their career progression.

Will they care that a poor, working-class lad will have to stop going after
over FIFTY years of TOTAL support. Will they fuck. They'll just look down
on the poor boy. They, after all, are very rich men. Where has that money
come from. Oh yes - the poor boy and his mates. What twats they are.

The Board KNEW that the shirt-sales thing had come to an end. They told
Glazer that much. Letting Beckham go gave Madrid the shirt-sales anyway.
Glazer, being an arrogant twat (and a bully-boy), of course, thought he
knew better. Perhaps Glazer will discount shirts out of his own pocket for
those in the poorer places. Perhaps Glazer will tell me "I'll discount your
ST so Bert et al can have their cat food". Perhaps that 'cow WILL fly over
the moon'!

Am I alone in seeing all this? I don't think I am and in many respects that
hurts me even more. If only we could ALL come together. If only we could
ALL stop Glazer - THEN perhaps things might be different. There is NO doubt
in my mind that for that to happen we have to sink right down. We have to
go down and then rebuild. But what would come out of that would be
something so strong that NOTHING AND/OR NOBODY could EVER do this to us again.

As you buy that replica shirt think about that. As you sup the sponsors ale
think about that. As you have Pepsi and not Coke think about that.

We COULD do it if we ALL did it together. If we were ALL UNITED.

Wouldn't that be a good thing?

My grandad did it in the early years of the last century. He gave what he
had (oh, so little - but that is another story) to help the Cause. He
FOUGHT that FIGHT.

And so will I - for as long as I breathe.

Anyway enough. I hate having to write this crap - my heart breaks.
Manchester United is more than my life - it is my fabric - it is my soul.

It is dying. And with it - myself.

Keep the faith, TBT


Top post. Nothing to add.

[POL]

Top post. Nothing to add.

You just did

[Fat Tom]

You just did

Obsessed

[POL]

Obsessed


would you care to elaborate?

[Fat Tom]

would you care to elaborate?

I'm only pulling the piss.
Chill Winston!

[ho chi feen]

Obsessed

For sure.

[homer jay]

The main culprit and principal beneficiary of the move to the PLC was Martin Edwards NOT the club.

thats the biggest load of shite i've ever heard. edwards may have benifited, but to say the club didn't! fucking hell man.

[KolaKubes]

thats the biggest load of shite i've ever heard. edwards may have benifited, but to say the club didn't! fucking hell man.

Shows you know fuck all. The Flotation of football clubs has been primarily been about making the likes of Edwards, Bates and the Halls serious amounts of cash for shares they'd originally bought far cheaper in the more heavily regulated, less commercialised pre-PLC football world. Edwards made £71 million from selling his stake in his carefully cultivated investment.

Utd were floated for £30-40 million. Being generous to your flimsy argument, this moderate sum allowed Utd to invest money in the stadium which gave them a slight advantage over rivals like Liverpool. The cost of this was that Utd were then run as a commercial entity, making profits for shareholders, subject to novel taxes and regulations and, thus, limiting what the club could do in the transfer market.

People harp on about the stupid money handed over for Ferdinand and Veron in 2002/2003 (two gross overspends by the incompetent Kenyon) but, for most of our modern history, Utd have spent a far smaller fraction of our turnover on wages and transfer fees than any of our rivals.

[Sound]

The main culprit and principal beneficiary of the move to the PLC was Martin Edwards NOT the club. All the efforts to turn the club into a "well-run business", avoiding the debt that rivals like Madrid were racking up while bringing in top players only served to keep Edwards' stock nice and juicy and ultimately made us ripe for a takeover by an "investor" like Glazer. We, the fans and the football club itself, have been fucked over so don't give me the "ye had it coming to ye" argument". Dave Whelan was offered Utd for £12 million in 89/90, we didn't float for much more than that and have been paying for ground improvements from profits (i.e. fans' money) since then.

I'm starting to think that no-one reads anything they reply to in this place anymore.

The point is:
WHERE WERE THE COMPLAINTS OF THE UTD FANS WHEN ALL THE BIG SIGNINGS WERE COMING IN? WHERE WAS ALL THE HAND-WRINGING THEN?

[homer jay]

People harp on about the stupid money handed over for Ferdinand and Veron in 2002/2003 (two gross overspends by the incompetent Kenyon) but, for most of our modern history, Utd have spent a far smaller fraction of our turnover on wages and transfer fees than any of our rivals.

were utd not the primary spenders in the last 10-12 years?
3.5 mill in 1993 for keane was a record as far as i can remember
7 mill in 1995 for andy cole
12.6 mill in 1998 for dwight yorke
10.75 mill in 1998 for jaap stam
28 mill in 2001 for veron
19 mill in 2002 (i think) for van the man
30 mill in 2002 for snoop dog

a far smaller fraction of our turnover on wages and transfer fees than any of our rivals.

c'mon. granted other teams were spending in and around the 10 to 15 mill mark, but utd just blew everone away with van nistlerooy, veron and ferdinand

[STEVIEG]

c'mon. granted other teams were spending in and around the 10 to 15 mill mark, but utd just blew everone away with van nistlerooy, veron and ferdinand


Yes, but United always spent within there means and kept wages etc within their turnover. They were big Premiership spenders throughout the 90's (most of the big clubs were) but it wasn't until Ruud and Veron that United went out and bought the biggest players in Europe.
I ultimately agree though that United made their own bed though and just have to get on with it now.
If Glazer is to go anytime soon the team will have to take the dip that some fans want (to get rid of them) but as for me i'd prefer if the team wins games.

[homer jay]

If Glazer is to go anytime soon the team will have to take the dip that some fans want (to get rid of them) but as for me i'd prefer if the team wins games.

as much as i hate man utd, i don't like the whole glazer thing. its bad for footy and its seriously bad for utd. but if they start to falter, going out of europe was a step in that direction, then it could be a very slippery slope. who would have to slag then ;)

[ho chi feen]

thats the biggest load of shite i've ever heard. edwards may have benifited, but to say the club didn't! fucking hell man.

Maybe your grasp of relative clauses isn't quite up to scratch, but what part of "The main culprit and principal beneficiary of the move to the PLC was Martin Edwards NOT the club." are having difficulty wrapping your head around?

[KolaKubes]

I'm starting to think that no-one reads anything they reply to in this place anymore.

The point is:
WHERE WERE THE COMPLAINTS OF THE UTD FANS WHEN ALL THE BIG SIGNINGS WERE COMING IN? WHERE WAS ALL THE HAND-WRINGING THEN?

I've always taken immeasurably more satisfaction from lads like Solskjaer, Beckham and Scholes that the club crafted into great players than our ability to piss higher and further than everyone else in the transfer market. You still seem to be equating us being a PLC with having that money to spend, the money came from fans going through the turnstiles and buying the seventeen different shirts not the BBC pension fund or J.P. McManus. In fact, it's those real owners of the club that would have winced when the club spent any big money in the transfer market.

were utd not the primary spenders in the last 10-12 years?
c'mon. granted other teams were spending in and around the 10 to 15 mill mark, but utd just blew everone away with van nistlerooy, veron and ferdinand

I suspect that's Chelsea's "honour"! I actually tried unsuccessfully to find the exact figures but I'd even think the likes of Liverpool and Newcastle aren't too far off Utd over most of the period. If we take Keane's 1993 transfer as the starting point, Utd subsequently broke the record for Cole (£7 million) in 1995 and Van Nistelrooy in 2001 (£19 million), the next record is then Veron (£28 million) in 2002 as Ferdinand's fee has since been downgraded to something more like £24 million. In the interim, you'd Blackburn (Sutton), Liverpool (Collymore), Newcastle (Shearer) and Leeds (Ferdinand) all breaking the record. We've not had it all our own way and, considering the gulf in spending power, I don't think we ever really threw our financial weight around the way Chelsea do.

[ho chi feen]

I'm starting to think that no-one reads anything they reply to in this place anymore.

The point is:
WHERE WERE THE COMPLAINTS OF THE UTD FANS WHEN ALL THE BIG SIGNINGS WERE COMING IN? WHERE WAS ALL THE HAND-WRINGING THEN?

As had been said here already, it's gross revisionism to suggest United were outspending their rivals signifigantly to monopolise success. The real big money transfers came off the back of funds generated by their success on the field, at various stages throughout the ninetiees, the likes of Newcastle and Blackburn were signifigantly outspending them, and teams like Leeds, Livepool and Arsenal were spending broadly similar amounts- Newcastle breaking the world transfer record for Shearer which stood as a British record for 4 years until Leeds forked out 18m for Rio Ferdinand, for example. Liverpool spending 8.5 on Collymore, Newcastle buying Asprilla and Ferdinand in the same season, Arsenal spending 11m on Henry.

From 2001 on transfer expenditure increased signigantly (Rio, Veron, Rooney, Ruud). Nobody ever seems to talk about big money brought in (and consequently, wages saved) in the period, such as Stam (16m), Veron (15m) and Beckham (25m). This is a bit different from the Real's of this world spending 130m on three players without having to sell to balance the books and wagebill, and I'm not even going mention Chelsea as they're a special case.

Also, nobody seems to mention us not being in a postition to compete for signings of the Batistutas, the Ronaldos and the Maldinis of this world all throughout the nineties due to PLC constraints.

Okay, nobody is going to say we were paupers, but this idea that the cimple fact of our being a PLC brought untold financial rewards that facilitated the creation of an anti-competitive environment handicapping all our rivals is utter bollocks also.

[FL4ZGN]

were utd not the primary spenders in the last 10-12 years?
3.5 mill in 1993 for keane was a record as far as i can remember
7 mill in 1995 for andy cole
12.6 mill in 1998 for dwight yorke
10.75 mill in 1998 for jaap stam
28 mill in 2001 for veron
19 mill in 2002 (i think) for van the man
30 mill in 2002 for snoop dog


In the case of Keane we had just wone the league so the money was available, we had just done the double before we bough Cole so the money was there.

As regards the others, well there are a couple of reasons.

We had been the most successful team in England so we obviously had money.

Martin Edwards agreed to break the clubs wage structure so we could attract better player.

And the most notable of all is that we invested in youth (something that all otehr top clubs have now followed suite). Giggs, G Neville, P Neville, Butt, Scholes and Brown to name a few.

[Sound]

As had been said here already, it's gross revisionism to suggest United were outspending their rivals signifigantly to monopolise success. The real big money transfers came off the back of funds generated by their success on the field, at various stages throughout the ninetiees, the likes of Newcastle and Blackburn were signifigantly outspending them, and teams like Leeds, Livepool and Arsenal were spending broadly similar amounts- Newcastle breaking the world transfer record for Shearer which stood as a British record for 4 years until Leeds forked out 18m for Rio Ferdinand, for example. Liverpool spending 8.5 on Collymore, Newcastle buying Asprilla and Ferdinand in the same season, Arsenal spending 11m on Henry.

From 2001 on transfer expenditure increased signigantly (Rio, Veron, Rooney, Ruud). Nobody ever seems to talk about big money brought in (and consequently, wages saved) in the period, such as Stam (16m), Veron (15m) and Beckham (25m). This is a bit different from the Real's of this world spending 130m on three players without having to sell to balance the books and wagebill, and I'm not even going mention Chelsea as they're a special case.

Also, nobody seems to mention us not being in a postition to compete for signings of the Batistutas, the Ronaldos and the Maldinis of this world all throughout the nineties due to PLC constraints.

Okay, nobody is going to say we were paupers, but this idea that the cimple fact of our being a PLC brought untold financial rewards that facilitated the creation of an anti-competitive environment handicapping all our rivals is utter bollocks also.

I never said Utd were outspending everyone. Most clubs were handing out cash like a Japanese businessman in a strip club. What I said was that there was none of this soul-searching in the good times. And the non-PLC clubs can spend without being answerable to share-holders. This was never an issue for Utd as a club or, especially, the fans when it was all going well. Anyone with a brain was saying that it was bad for Utd and, worse, bad for football. But, now that it isn't going as well, there is unprecedented bleating from the fans. Your bed has now been made but ye dont want to lie in it.

[FL4ZGN]

I never said Utd were outspending everyone. Most clubs were handing out cash like a Japanese businessman in a strip club. What I said was that there was none of this soul-searching in the good times. And the non-PLC clubs can spend without being answerable to share-holders. This was never an issue for Utd as a club or, especially, the fans when it was all going well. Anyone with a brain was saying that it was bad for Utd and, worse, bad for football. But, now that it isn't going as well, there is unprecedented bleating from the fans. Your bed has now been made but ye dont want to lie in it.


The fans started kicking up only when we were plundered into 800 million debt. As i Manchester United shareholder since 1992 i did not want the Glazers, i sold my shares and bought into shareholders United.

Things are going to get much worse for manchester united before they get better.

Keep the faith!
Red til im dead.
TBT.

[Sound]

The fans started kicking up only when we were plundered into 800 million debt. As i Manchester United shareholder since 1992 i did not want the Glazers, i sold my shares and bought into shareholders United.

Things are going to get much worse for manchester united before they get better.

Keep the faith!
Red til im dead.
TBT.

Way to prove my point!

[FL4ZGN]

Way to prove my point!


I get your point, however what i am trying to make clear is that even if we win the league this year (which we still have a good chance of doing IMHO) the fans are still going to be sceptical because of the amount of debt we are in.

What i and most of the United fans feel however is, if we fail to qualify for the champions league say two years in a row then we could very well be the next Leeds United.

Teams who are not in the champions league to not attract top players (just ask Gerrard Houllier) and with the financial burden upon our club at the moment should we fail to qualify then we are capable of going under.

[KolaKubes]

The fans started kicking up only when we were plundered into 800 million debt.

The fans never complained about the PLC until this year??!!!!

What are you on about, berating the PLC has been a running theme since it happened.

[FL4ZGN]

The fans never complained about the PLC until this year??!!!!

What are you on about, berating the PLC has been a running theme since it happened.


Of course we all know that Kubes. But since the talks of takeovers involving the Glazer came on the cards the fans rose up just as they did when Murdock was involved in an earlier takeover.

[KolaKubes]

Of course we all know that Kubes. But since the talks of takeovers involving the Glazer came on the cards the fans rose up just as they did when Murdock was involved in an earlier takeover.

The only criticism I'd make of Utd fans, myself included, is that we didn't seriously start trying to build up our stake in the club from the outset.

[FL4ZGN]

The only criticism I'd make of Utd fans, myself included, is that we didn't seriously start trying to build up our stake in the club from the outset.


I agree and as i posted here before i sold my shares and put the money to SU when Murdock was trying to take over.

It all goes back to Martin Edwards IMHO but i think it really hit home after seeing what happened with Leeds. The membership for SU grew significanlty after the collapse at Leeds.

However like some of the guys said here earlier and rightly so (when we were successful the fans were not going on about it) thats fine but we were not 800 million in debth back then.

As soon as we floated on the stock exchange we left ourselves open for a situation such as the one we remain stuck in at the moment.

[Sound]

The only criticism I'd make of Utd fans, myself included, is that we didn't seriously start trying to build up our stake in the club from the outset.

KK, please stop trying to tell us that there was a mass outcry as there simply wasn't. There was a hardcore but that's all.

[KolaKubes]

KK, please stop trying to tell us that there was a mass outcry as there simply wasn't. There was a hardcore but that's all.

What would constitute a mass outcry in your eyes so? Getting a minimum 80% turnout of the various Johnny Come Latelys and 6 year olds for a protest rally against something we could do fuck all about? That shower, many of whom will have since decamped to the Russians, aren't worth considering, only the views of that "hardcore" as you're referring to them matter!

[Sound]

What would constitute a mass outcry in your eyes so? Getting a minimum 80% turnout of the various Johnny Come Latelys and 6 year olds for a protest rally against something we could do fuck all about? That shower, many of whom will have since decamped to the Russians, aren't worth considering, only the views of that "hardcore" as you're referring to them matter!

If you look further up this thread you will see a post from TBT sating that fans started kicking up after Glazer. That's what I'm talking about.

[Actin The Sham]

The fans started kicking up only when we were plundered into 800 million debt. As i Manchester United shareholder since 1992 i did not want the Glazers, i sold my shares and bought into shareholders United.

Things are going to get much worse for manchester united before they get better.

Keep the faith!
Red til im dead.
TBT.

I couldn't care less who owns the club, as long as they do well on the pitch. Owners will come and go, as we know. I'm happy that United are no longer a PLC though.

A bigger problem will be who the hell are they going to get to replace the wizzard?


When he said that the Glazer deal was not to be worried over that was enough for me. I remember Dave Sexton so I appreciate what the wizzard has done for the club.

[Sound]

As a Pool fan I think Utd should get Hughes on a 10 year deal.

[Actin The Sham]

As a Pool fan I think Utd should get Hughes on a 10 year deal.

Heh heh heh.....I was thinking the same about Liverpool around the time that the whole Roy Evans Gerard Houllier thing was going on.

;)

[Langer Dan]

earra a Glazer style takeover was always a possibility once it became a plc, tis the way of the world.


tough shit

[ho chi feen]

I couldn't care less who owns the club, as long as they do well on the pitch. Owners will come and go, as we know. I'm happy that United are no longer a PLC though.

A bigger problem will be who the hell are they going to get to replace the wizzard?


When he said that the Glazer deal was not to be worried over that was enough for me. I remember Dave Sexton so I appreciate what the wizzard has done for the club.

Felipao Scolari is the only man for the job, IMHO.

Or possibly Mourinho after he gets the boot at Real- though I would hate if we played Chelski-like football.

[STEVIEG]

Has to be Keegan for me he is as tough as nails and could handle the pressure

[STEVIEG]

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/7136/glazer1fg5.gif

[MonTheHoops]

FFS TBT

http://www.mail-archive.com/imusa@yahoogroups.co m/msg00479.html

[RedCityKid]

FFS TBT

http://www.mail-archive.com/imusa@yahoogroups.co m/msg00479.html

Thats impressive researching Otto. You have exposed TBT for the fraud that he is ...good work!

[ho chi feen]

Bock?

[STEVIEG]

This is an old thread

Do you really think he was trying to pass it off as his own??

It's pretty obviously a cut and paste jobby

[FL4ZGN]

This is an old thread

Do you really think he was trying to pass it off as his own??

It's pretty obviously a cut and paste jobby

Thank you.

[POL]

hows the civilised protest going again?

[FL4ZGN]

hows the civilised protest going again?

Still a member of MUST.

[Otto_the_bus_driver]

Sad i know, but how i feel.

Since i moved back to Ireland i only get over four or five times a season but its turning into a fucking travesty and the sooner those yank twats fuck off the better.

When asked if he wrote that .

[Philby]

When asked if he wrote that .

Caught out and badly caught out at that (tm)

[ho chi feen]

Caught out and badly caught out at that (tm)

Again.

Tut tut tut.

Bock!

[Corkonian]

funny i missed this thread. sad fact TBT is that despite being a MUST member like your good self for the last few years United fans as a whole it seems do not give a flying fcuk about the club really as long as their matchday isn't inconvenienced. Really lost all faith in them last year. No protests. no boycotts as promised. nothing. No one except a small few of us want to actually do anything. Glazer though got very lucky with tv deals last season. jammy ba$tard.
But i was out to dinner with some-well everyone but the cockney- MUST committee members just before Christmas and met up with Sean, Duncan and Ollie on friday night last for a Danny Wallace Foundation fundraiser-i met Wallace and Choccy there and was totally starstruck ffs- anyway from what I hear, things are going very well on the MUST front. Just biding their/our time really. People get sick of hearing Ollie and Sean banging on about figures on the debt but theres a new clubhouse opening soon which will be a good fundraiser and give it a season or 2 and Glazer's world will come crashing down. Giggsy, Scholesy and Nev will be getting on. the money available to spend will decrease as the interest on the repayments rise. I live in hope. But then I suppose thats all we have left.

other good news is that FC United won 8-0 last night and have pretty much sealed promotion. next home game is the little derby against Maine Road. Should be a great game. Atmosphere at the away match was fantastic. obviously i don't go to OT anymore so its nice to hear the old songs and some new ones.

[KolaKubes]

funny i missed this thread. sad fact TBT is that despite being a MUST member like your good self for the last few years United fans as a whole it seems do not give a flying fcuk about the club really as long as their matchday isn't inconvenienced. Really lost all faith in them last year. No protests. no boycotts as promised. nothing. No one except a small few of us want to actually do anything. Glazer though got very lucky with tv deals last season. jammy ba$tard.
But i was out to dinner with some-well everyone but the cockney- MUST committee members just before Christmas and met up with Sean, Duncan and Ollie on friday night last for a Danny Wallace Foundation fundraiser-i met Wallace and Choccy there and was totally starstruck ffs- anyway from what I hear, things are going very well on the MUST front. Just biding their/our time really. People get sick of hearing Ollie and Sean banging on about figures on the debt but theres a new clubhouse opening soon which will be a good fundraiser and give it a season or 2 and Glazer's world will come crashing down. Giggsy, Scholesy and Nev will be getting on. the money available to spend will decrease as the interest on the repayments rise. I live in hope. But then I suppose thats all we have left.

other good news is that FC United won 8-0 last night and have pretty much sealed promotion. next home game is the little derby against Maine Road. Should be a great game. Atmosphere at the away match was fantastic. obviously i don't go to OT anymore so its nice to hear the old songs and some new ones.

Ya, best of luck to FC Utd but I've about as much interest in how they get on as I have in Sunderland.

More seriously, you live in hope of what exactly?

I'm a bit concerned at the attitude of the MUST/FC brigade. You love the club so much you've stopped supporting it?

I hope not too many of you are parents with that attitude.

Incidentally, I bought my shares back when I felt the Glazers might be stopped.

I moved away from the "anti-Glazer" crew when things descended into varying degrees of lunacy.

My personal favourite is the idea that the club being ruined by massive debt will lead to some beautiful new dawn where we join forces with FC Utd and march back up the divisions.

Cheers, but I think I'll pass on that. It's like hoping the island of Ireland slips under the sea so that we can re-build the republic on Rockall.

Strictly a twee local affair for the Mancs now. Best of luck with their plans for FC Utd. I like the idea of supporter owned clubs but I'll no more be supporting them than any other club.

[Corkonian]

Ya, best of luck to FC Utd but I've about as much interest in how they get on as I have in Sunderland.

as do most United fans. Its not a replacement for United but its a chance for those of us who don't go to OT anymore to support a team that doesn't compete with United and get back into the matchday atmosphere

More seriously, you live in hope of what exactly?

that sooner or later Glazer will pi** off. If the club is in ruins financially and needs to be built back up then so be it. But this guy is only interested in making a profit and has no interest in the club's history or supporters.

I'm a bit concerned at the attitude of the MUST/FC brigade. You love the club so much you've stopped supporting it?

I hope not too many of you are parents with that attitude.

its hard to explain but I'll do my best- we won't give any money through merchandise or ticket purchases as we refuse to feed the parasite. I mean surely thats not too hard to understand is it? As for hoping the team fails-again its down to money and making an impact into crowd attendances. The day trippers will keep coming and keep buying United crap as long as the team are successful. This means more money for Glazer to pay off his debt with and make a profit with. the sooner they are out of Europe in a season and the less successful they are the sooner Glazer feels the pinch in the repayments. Luckily there are plans in place for United supporters to pick up the pieces. Glazer payed over the odds for United. The price was hugely over inflated. It's worth far less.

Incidentally, I bought my shares back when I felt the Glazers might be stopped.

very few know how close we actually came to getting Magnier and co's shares. Thats what was so gutting about it. We could have won but cest la vie. Keep plodding on. Its better than sitting on our hands and doing nothing.

I moved away from the "anti-Glazer" crew when things descended into varying degrees of lunacy.

My personal favourite is the idea that the club being ruined by massive debt will lead to some beautiful new dawn where we join forces with FC Utd and march back up the divisions.

thats the most ridiculous theory I've ever heard. They are two seperate clubs and many went to FC because thye were getting sick of the commercialism of football and the Skyjacking of games. They will never be the same club. ever. They are inextricably linked with giggsy's brother playing for them, the origin, the fans but thats it.

[KolaKubes]

as do most United fans. Its not a replacement for United but its a chance for those of us who don't go to OT anymore to support a team that doesn't compete with United and get back into the matchday atmosphere

I'm not one of the "anti-FC" brigade, no problem with that.



that sooner or later Glazer will pi** off. If the club is in ruins financially and needs to be built back up then so be it. But this guy is only interested in making a profit and has no interest in the club's history or supporters.

Undoubtedly, the Glazers are "investors" and unscrupulous ones at that but it's the "so be it" part of that rankles with me. Frankly, I'm extremely sceptical of the rationale behind this. In fact, I'm rather opposed to it. See, the boycotters for me talk a lot about the "character" and "identity" of the club. Yet, they don't seem to be able to fathom just why their approach has failed to garner support amongst the vast majority of Utd fans even locally yet alone worldwide. Could it be that their idea of the "character" of the club doesn't quite fit with the rest of us?

I certainly don't think the idea of a footballing institution ending up down in the first division, stadium sold off to clear debts, elicits a reaction of "so be it" from 99.9% of Utd fans, whatever notions you lot might have of funding a resurrection of the club thereafter.



its hard to explain but I'll do my best- we won't give any money through merchandise or ticket purchases as we refuse to feed the parasite. I mean surely thats not too hard to understand is it? As for hoping the team fails-again its down to money and making an impact into crowd attendances. The day trippers will keep coming and keep buying United crap as long as the team are successful. This means more money for Glazer to pay off his debt with and make a profit with. the sooner they are out of Europe in a season and the less successful they are the sooner Glazer feels the pinch in the repayments. Luckily there are plans in place for United supporters to pick up the pieces. Glazer payed over the odds for United. The price was hugely over inflated. It's worth far less.

On the contrary, I have no problem with individuals feeling they can no longer pay money into the Glazers' pockets. I do have a problem with any group suggesting it would be great if we all did likewise. The club has been placed in a perilous situation due to the ludicrous concept of a leveraged takeover but, then, that was always a possibility from the first time we floated. A mass withdrawal of support for the club kills the club but not the parasite, they'll just crawl off and lick their wounds.

The MUST plans (from what I recall) for resurrecting the club were/are fanciful in the extreme. A year on and Liverpool (arguably a far less valuable club) have been taken over for ~£450m, so there's no sign of Utd being grossly overvalued as yet (though the Glazers did pay over the odds nonetheless).



very few know how close we actually came to getting Magnier and co's shares. Thats what was so gutting about it. We could have won but cest la vie. Keep plodding on. Its better than sitting on our hands and doing nothing.

We were being told right up to the end by Kurt that M&M wouldn't sell to the Glazers, something he got spectacularly wrong.

But you've piqued my interest now, so where were MUST getting the money together to buy M&M's shares? How much hard cash can they get access to? How disastrous would Utd's financial downfall have to be before MUST would have a hope of being able to intervene in any meaningful way? Even if that happened, wouldn't some other "investor" or some bored sheikh merely step in and buy the whole club?

By the way, when I say hard cash, I mean money MUST have not money it could borrow.

I suggested straight after the takeover to MUST that we should take the money and "buy" into the club in some shape or form by arrangement with the new owners. Specifically, I thought a scheme could be put in place where MUST could incrementally build up their minority shareholding in the club, perhaps taking the form of an optional levy on season ticket prices (for example). As businessmen, I thought the Glazers would jump at the deal and, in return, slowly but surely, Utd fans could start down the long road towards a fan-owned club, building up that minority shareholding (something which would be of no interest to anyone other than the fans) until maybe our kids might be following a "free" Utd.

I was given short shrift and that made up my mind that I'd be taking my money out of the MUST fund. I felt then I was dealing with fundamentally irrational people. What is it they say about a fanatic, its someone that when they've forgotten the point of what they're fighting for, they try harder?

Incidentally, personally, I see a direct connection between the radicalisation of the club's hardcore supporters and the problems of the like seen in Rome which have been an increasing feature for the past year and a half.

[kevinbitzz]

i think a good share of the 450m that Gillette/Hicks spent on the pool is for the new stadium, the actul value of liverpool was somewhere around 230-270mil.

[Fr. Turncoat]

Top post. Nothing to add.

http://www.mail-archive.com/imusa@yahoogroups.co m/msg00479.html
copy and paste

[Corkonian]

Yet, they don't seem to be able to fathom just why their approach has failed to garner support amongst the vast majority of Utd fans even locally yet alone worldwide.

the idea has always been that United should, like Barcelona, be owned by the fans. So when Edwards decided to make a quick buck and float the club supporters were encouraged to buy shares when they were quite cheap. SAF and Cantona etc even suggested as much. It wasn't just "fanatics" like IMUSA or MUST that have tried to get United supporters involved. But there is such apathy amongst United supporters and I have no time for most of them now. The atmosphere at OT says it all. They can't even be bothered to cheer the team on let alone fight to keep it out of the hands of the likes of Murdoch/Glazer. You can dress it up under any guise you want but the fact is most United supporters don't want to do anything constructive. I think thats true of society in general to be honest. Nobody wants to strike anymore. Nobody wants to complain. Nobody wants to put themselves out. Fair enough. Its all rosy now but Glazer's gonna tighten the purse strings at some point. Investment in the team will be strangled further.

I certainly don't think the idea of a footballing institution ending up down in the first division, stadium sold off to clear debts, elicits a reaction of "so be it" from 99.9% of Utd fans, whatever notions you lot might have of funding a resurrection of the club thereafter.

LMAO. The irony. Thats what we wanted to avoid but fcuk all listened and like it or not, its going to happen according to many financial analysts. SAF only has a few years left in his managerial career if that. The back-bone of the side-giggs, scholes and neville won't be there much longer. The players coming throught the youth system are not good enough to replace them so we'll need to buy. But because of the debt the 25million budget-if even that- will not compete with the likes of Real and Chelsea on the transfer market. If even half of the 99.9% of United fans you speak of gave a crap we wouldn't be in this situation. Gill could have been made to stand by his anti takeover stance and not given the chance to wriggle out like he eventually did. The board would then have described the takeover attempt as hostile, with the backing of the fans and Glazer may never have gotten control. But when you have just 30,000 speaking would would listen and why?


A mass withdrawal of support for the club kills the club but not the parasite, they'll just crawl off and lick their wounds.

so you think they would stick around when it all went wrong?? Nobody expects overnight withdrawal of support. It will take time for United to start losing games, getting thrown out of Europe early, not doing as well as usual in the premiership. Of course a lack of money will kill thr parasite. How can he repay the interest on the loans let alone the loand themselves when the money isn't there? Assets will be sold off. The Glazers will disappear and the club will be left in pieces.

The MUST plans (from what I recall) for resurrecting the club were/are fanciful in the extreme.

how so? What were the plans you heard of?

We were being told right up to the end by Kurt that M&M wouldn't sell to the Glazers, something he got spectacularly wrong.

thats because at the time Gill was on our side it seemed but something happened for him to spectacularly change his mind and when the board could have killed the takeover dead in the water by describing it as hostile, they didn't. Gill screwed us over big time. He lied barefaced to us. At least with Kenyon, you knew you were dealing with a weasel.


But you've piqued my interest now, so where were MUST getting the money together to buy M&M's shares?

There were talks with a Japanese bank who struck a deal with MUST (then SU). The figures I don't have to hand right now. i'm not even sure if the Committee released them in full. Obviously there are things the Committee won't release because you should never reveal you hand too soon. As for how much hard cash it has this is from one of the leading MUST members and I think it says it better than i could explain tbh...

"I don't know the exact figure, the Pheonix Fund consists of many thousands of individual members accounts after all. And really, the amount is less than important than the fact that it exists at all. The point being here that the PF is the core part of the snowball. Our job is to get it rolling and gathering other 'investments'. I actually think that the number of people with a stake in the PF is more important than the total amount. If we think we are actually going to be able to afford to buy the club back just using the 'cash' in the PF we will fail miserably, whether it's £2m or £20m. We need to demonstrate to banks and so called 'red knights' that we have the organisation which is capable of taking a major role in the running of the club. And that the organisation has the backing of the majority of United fans. So whether you have a tenner or ten grand in the PF it's your membership which is the important thing."

From what I inderstand the though the figure is around the £2 million mark as of September 06.


How disastrous would Utd's financial downfall have to be before MUST would have a hope of being able to intervene in any meaningful way?

Leeds United like-going into administration. Nothing is beyond the bounds of possibility. As for the other investor coming in- its a level playing field I suppose but the best proposal for the club would surely win. If investors were to come in and do exactly what Glazer did then what use would that be? We have some MPs and advisers in parliament who have lobbied the Gov on the issue of community involvement in football clubs. So its no longer merely a profit driven organisation. Football attandances are down big time over here. Ordinary joe soap football fans cannot afford to go to every game and its damaging to the local support. Gordon Brown is a big supporter of this initative so we'll see where it goes. But something has to be done to save a national game before its too late.



I suggested straight after the takeover to MUST that we should take the money and "buy" into the club in some shape or form by arrangement with the new owners. Specifically, I thought a scheme could be put in place where MUST could incrementally build up their minority shareholding in the club, perhaps taking the form of an optional levy on season ticket prices (for example). As businessmen, I thought the Glazers would jump at the deal and, in return, slowly but surely, Utd fans could start down the long road towards a fan-owned club, building up that minority shareholding (something which would be of no interest to anyone other than the fans) until maybe our kids might be following a "free" Utd.

and you accuse MUST of having fanciful ideas? Don't get me wrong KK -its great in theory on paper but Glazer would not be interested in that. He has flooded the board with his own family members so its obvious where his views on sharing power lie. he won't even talk to the fans to address our concerns so what is the point in suggesting he let us buy into the club and look over his shoulder. You don't buy up aload of shares only to then relinquish control to an organisation that steadfastly opposed you-however slight.

I was given short shrift and that made up my mind that I'd be taking my money out of the MUST fund. I felt then I was dealing with fundamentally irrational people.

who gave you the short shrift? I'm just interested? I assure you the people in charge of MUST are far from being irrational.

Incidentally, personally, I see a direct connection between the radicalisation of the club's hardcore supporters and the problems of the like seen in Rome which have been an increasing feature for the past year and a half.

well that would be hard to connect becuase the hardest of the hardcore supporters are no longer following Manchester United and have instead gone to FC. There has always been a hooligan element in United. The MEC being the major example. But I think blaming the supporters over a clearly flawed policing system on the continent and an increasingly radical element in Italian football is rather unfair. Many Italian journalists have said there are distinct indications that the Italian police were itching to have a go at the United supporters. People I know personally were at the stadium and saw a good few police officers snorting cocaine and getting riled for a fight. Like I've said in another thread, United supporters are not angels. But any violence shown is not started by them and if you compare Italy's own league violence with what happens in the premiership you can see the problems with hooliganism is not in English football anymore. Its in other European countries. But nobody it seems wants to accept that. Because of 70's/80's its easier to pin it on the english clubs and sweep everything else under the carpet.

United are not the only club to have been involved in violence abroad either. 5 Liverpool supporters were stabbed in Rome, 4 Middlesborough, Leeds fans got stabbed abroad too.

Lille was a case of too many fans being let in at one end by officals in Lens. People were being crushed, they had to get out of there.