Ireland- Corner of hope.

[Sound]

Right.

We have limited players.
Our best players are out.
We have a poor manager.
If we dont win tonight we are definitely out.
If we do win tonight we could still be cunted in the playoffs.

None of this matters. Not now. Not tonight. We have our destiny in our own hands. At home. To a bunch of pricks who have wound us up from day one. Their best player is also out. They are no great shakes. If we were offered this when we heard who was in the group, we would have jumped at it.

And we are at fucking home!!!

So put it all to one side. The crazy management, the Israel games, the poxy media. Leave it at the door. We have one shot at a world cup that is only in Germany. The next one is in South Africa FFS! You may even have a chance to go if they qualify. Think about that. For one night only, get the fuck behind your country because, by God, they need the help.

COME ON IRELAND!!!!!!!!

[STEVIEG]

Yes indeed.
I think we'll do it alright
C'mon the lads!

[CHANCE]

Right.

We have limited players.
Our best players are out.
We have a poor manager.
If we dont win tonight we are definitely out.
If we do win tonight we could still be cunted in the playoffs.

None of this matters. Not now. Not tonight. We have our destiny in our own hands. At home. To a bunch of pricks who have wound us up from day one. Their best player is also out. They are no great shakes. If we were offered this when we heard who was in the group, we would have jumped at it.

And we are at fucking home!!!

So put it all to one side. The crazy management, the Israel games, the poxy media. Leave it at the door. We have one shot at a world cup that is only in Germany. The next one is in South Africa FFS! You may even have a chance to go if they qualify. Think about that. For one night only, get the fuck behind your country because, by God, they need the help.

COME ON IRELAND!!!!!!!!

Its nice to see a glimer of optimism,in a board otherwise resigned to defeat. Id love to watch it but have college till around nine(will be out before that).

And anything is possible in this life. and never say never.

COME ON THE LADS!!!!!!

[Sound]

Fuck, fuck, fuck.

Passionless, brainless and useless.

Some questions:
1) Why was Stephen Reid not on from the start?
2) Why was Stephen Carr playing at all? He was abysmal again. They had Finnan on the bench.
3) When we need one goal to go to the WC why the fuck not take a chance and put on Elliot in place of a defender. Like, ooh, lets say Stephen fucking Carr.
4) Why does Kilbane still make a living playing football? I'm better than that cuntologist.
5) Why play at a walking pace? Its not as if we have the talent to cut them open with the unexpected, now is it? Practically all our players are based in the English league which is played at pace.
6) When is Kerr going to get the sack?

That is all.

[the mighty quark]

After match comments were about how we are a team in decline.
Personally I thought that tonight we were a team in a reclining deckchair!

[Echoboy]

What will the FAI do now (long term) to change this around, rely on more english clubs to come in a take the kids for a song and a smile and hope that the system treats them kindly and we get a few more Stephen Carrs.

The FAI have not enabled footballers to develop properly in this country, it was always a pass the buck effort and hope for the best. It is up to them now to try and change that !!

info@fai.ie

01 703 7500

[CHANCE]

What will the FAI do now (long term) to change this around, rely on more english clubs to come in a take the kids for a song and a smile and hope that the system treats them kindly and we get a few more Stephen Carrs.

The FAI have not enabled footballers to develop properly in this country, it was always a pass the buck effort and hope for the best. It is up to them now to try and change that !!

info@fai.ie

01 703 7500

Our league isint strong enough to develop our players. Ask any player to choose between playing for their local club in Ireland and playing in England. And they will choose England every time. What incentives can the eircom league over the premiership ? answer none.

[de mange]

Our league isint strong enough to develop our players. Ask any player to choose between playing for their local club in Ireland and playing in England. And they will choose England every time. What incentives can the eircom league over the premiership ? answer none.

em.. champions league next season with cork city
ask george o callaghan, john o flynn, liam kearney, joe gamble if they would rather still be rotting away in the reserves of a 'championship' team or playing slavia prague, malmo, nantes etc in europe

[Sound]

What will the FAI do now (long term) to change this around, rely on more english clubs to come in a take the kids for a song and a smile and hope that the system treats them kindly and we get a few more Stephen Carrs.

The FAI have not enabled footballers to develop properly in this country, it was always a pass the buck effort and hope for the best. It is up to them now to try and change that !!

info@fai.ie

01 703 7500

The less of that useless, fat cunt the better.

[KolaKubes]

Fuck, fuck, fuck.

Passionless, brainless and useless.

Some questions:
1) Why was Stephen Reid not on from the start?
2) Why was Stephen Carr playing at all? He was abysmal again. They had Finnan on the bench.
3) When we need one goal to go to the WC why the fuck not take a chance and put on Elliot in place of a defender. Like, ooh, lets say Stephen fucking Carr.
4) Why does Kilbane still make a living playing football? I'm better than that cuntologist.
5) Why play at a walking pace? Its not as if we have the talent to cut them open with the unexpected, now is it? Practically all our players are based in the English league which is played at pace.
6) When is Kerr going to get the sack?

That is all.


1) Indeed, Reid actually plays central midfield regularly at a Premiership club. Instead, Kerr went with O'Shea.
2) And it's not like Kerr didn't have enough warning, he was awful on Saturday. I'd go so far as to say that Carr's poor play unsettled Ireland after a positive start.
3) 3 man-marking at the back? Might as well have.
4) God love him, he's a trier, but by that logic you could have thrown in all manner of Eircom league players in place of him. Actually....
5) Kerr is a classic, chronically conservative manager who can't help obsessing over what could go wrong if his team starts to take a few chances. Such types tend to take the verve off attacking play. I remember we'd a similar coach at home, nice guy and all, but, literally, could turn a 3-0 half-time lead into a loss with his focus on what might go wrong in the second half - which it duly did! For whatever reason, players are uber-sensitive to fear in a manager and vice versa.
6) Isn't he out of contract now?

[KolaKubes]

Our league isint strong enough to develop our players. Ask any player to choose between playing for their local club in Ireland and playing in England. And they will choose England every time. What incentives can the eircom league over the premiership ? answer none.

I honestly can't say I've seen Kevin Doyle play outside a few snippets. Does anyone think he'd have had an impact last night or too much too soon?

[STEVIEG]

They were absolutely crap and one dimensional but the thing that pissed me off most was the fact that half of them were trying to look for cheap free-kicks and trying to influence the ref instead of playing the whistle.
One of my favourite players, Giggs, does it from time time at United too and it pisses me off no end.
Watching Ireland has often been a frustrating experience but last night was as bad as they come
Can't say i'm pissed off though
They don't deserve to go
And having tried to withold criticism of the manager while they were still there i reckon it's now inevitable that he goes, the big question being, who the fawk is gonna take over.

[MonTheHoops]

em.. champions league next season with cork city
ask george o callaghan, john o flynn, liam kearney, joe gamble if they would rather still be rotting away in the reserves of a 'championship' team or playing slavia prague, malmo, nantes etc in europe


Oooh. Champions League. Facing the likes of Juve, Barca and Madrid. NOT.

Ask any of them if they'd rather the chance of playing championship football than facing and being beaten by the likes of Prague.

I go to City games and I go to Celtic games and the gulf between the two is there for all to see. I can bet you that Noel Hunt is happier plying his trade with Dunfermline than he would be at City. If you want to see players rotting away, see the Eircom league.

As for Doyle, do people think he's Ronaldinho or something?

[STEVIEG]

The point he was making is that there are Cork City players on the possible verge of a league double who have been involved in big European ties and hopefully will continue to do so in whats turned into a well run club.
Obviously, most people are gonna head for England or wherever but the likes of o'Callaghan are well capable of playing at a good level there and would probably choose city at this moment in time.
The more people who think like that the better the league becomes.

[Sound]

Oooh. Champions League. Facing the likes of Juve, Barca and Madrid. NOT.

Ask any of them if they'd rather the chance of playing championship football than facing and being beaten by the likes of Prague.

I go to City games and I go to Celtic games and the gulf between the two is there for all to see. I can bet you that Noel Hunt is happier plying his trade with Dunfermline than he would be at City. If you want to see players rotting away, see the Eircom league.

As for Doyle, do people think he's Ronaldinho or something?

There is a huge gulf between City and Celtic but Scottish football seems to be on the up at the moment and I'm sure the Hoops can bridge that gap over the next 10 years.

:0)

[STEVIEG]

Ouch!

[Comeretamebubbilah]

The point he was making is that there are Cork City players on the possible verge of a league double who have been involved in big European ties and hopefully will continue to do so in whats turned into a well run club.
Obviously, most people are gonna head for England or wherever but the likes of o'Callaghan are well capable of playing at a good level there and would probably choose city at this moment in time.
The more people who think like that the better the league becomes.


If the FAI actually paid any attention to our national league and invested properly in it then maybe players could develop their playing careers here. Doyle is a great example of this. Was never across the pond until teh reading move. He learned his trade in the eL, played competitive football at a decent level for a few seasons gaining much more experience than rotting away at reserve team level. He then moved when he was older and wiser and I think this has helped him no end in settling quickly at reading. Instead of all our young players heading off to the likes of doncaster, scunthorpe and the likes, they should stay in this country and learn their trade. If they are good enough then they will get their move to a premier or championship side. If we keep our young players for longer then our league can only improve. Why should they think that playing for any div 3 or 4 team is better than playing in the eL because the standard isnt any different. it's the perceived perception that british football, no matter what level is the only way...Thats bullshit imo...

you hear of young fellas heading over to the likes of colchester on a 1 year contract...thats criminal if you ask me....The FAI is obsessed with english football and the poeple within it openly tout our players to english clubs telling them that they should go there...Even our U21 manager is continuously at it...telling young players in the eL to head back to england..Its a disgrace really...Its a culture that we have to break and only the FAI have the power and influence to do it....


Back to last nights match....a disgrace plain and simple....kerr is no longer employed by the FAI and they should not renew the contract plain and simple.
How carr, a reid, keane played for as long as they did is a mystery....
kilbane, holland, o'shea morrison, harte werent much better...

[MonTheHoops]

If the FAI actually paid any attention to our national league and invested properly in it then maybe players could develop their playing careers here. Doyle is a great example of this. Was never across the pond until teh reading move. He learned his trade in the eL, played competitive football at a decent level for a few seasons gaining much more experience than rotting away at reserve team level. He then moved when he was older and wiser and I think this has helped him no end in settling quickly at reading. Instead of all our young players heading off to the likes of doncaster, scunthorpe and the likes, they should stay in this country and learn their trade. If they are good enough then they will get their move to a premier or championship side. If we keep our young players for longer then our league can only improve. Why should they think that playing for any div 3 or 4 team is better than playing in the eL because the standard isnt any different. it's the perceived perception that british football, no matter what level is the only way...Thats bullshit imo...

you hear of young fellas heading over to the likes of colchester on a 1 year contract...thats criminal if you ask me....The FAI is obsessed with english football and the poeple within it openly tout our players to english clubs telling them that they should go there...Even our U21 manager is continuously at it...telling young players in the eL to head back to england..Its a disgrace really...Its a culture that we have to break and only the FAI have the power and influence to do it....


Back to last nights match....a disgrace plain and simple....kerr is no longer employed by the FAI and they should not renew the contract plain and simple.
How carr, a reid, keane played for as long as they did is a mystery....
kilbane, holland, o'shea morrison, harte werent much better...



I can see your point but isn't it also fair to say that if they are good enough then they'll make it at Colchester/Doncaster/Anywherester?

The standard of the Eircom League is absolutely brutal. Take City's home game with Prague - they were rubbish, pure and utter rubbish. I'm not being harsh, I'm being a realist. If guys are to progress they need to be playing a higher standard of football. While you don't want them rotting in the reserves, you also don't want them getting into the team too easily. What's worse? A guy being a legend for Cork City and people saying "He could have done it" or a guy being half a success at Reading. I know which on I'd rather and I know which one is the better footballer. People are kidding themselves if they think facing the likes of Nantes/Prague once a season is up there with taking on your Ipswichs, Leicesters, Wolves's's's's's's and Leeds's's's's.

[MonTheHoops]

There is a huge gulf between City and Celtic but Scottish football seems to be on the up at the moment and I'm sure the Hoops can bridge that gap over the next 10 years.

:0)

Sound. I'll agree with that only because I agree with your signature.

[Captain Planet]

what was with the long ball aswell last night. robbie keane-useless.shouldnt have started. fair play to morrison. at least he worked his socks off again. kerr is a twat. as sound said, why did he take a striker off for a striker. complete stupidity. I could have sworn kerr was playin for the draw. i hope someone reminded him we needed to win.

[Comeretamebubbilah]

I can see your point but isn't it also fair to say that if they are good enough then they'll make it at Colchester/Doncaster/Anywherester?

The standard of the Eircom League is absolutely brutal. Take City's home game with Prague - they were rubbish, pure and utter rubbish. I'm not being harsh, I'm being a realist. If guys are to progress they need to be playing a higher standard of football. While you don't want them rotting in the reserves, you also don't want them getting into the team too easily. What's worse? A guy being a legend for Cork City and people saying "He could have done it" or a guy being half a success at Reading. I know which on I'd rather and I know which one is the better footballer. People are kidding themselves if they think facing the likes of Nantes/Prague once a season is up there with taking on your Ipswichs, Leicesters, Wolves's's's's's's and Leeds's's's's.

Why should they have to go to colchester/doncaster anywhere abroad when they could get the same football education at home in this country. If the FAI invested money into the leagues clubs then we could have the facilties to do it...I'm talkiing about the future here with proper investment and planning...

The standard of the eL is not brutal..its not top notch, but brutal it is not...they played poorly against prague but didnt get slaughtered..Slavia prague are a good european team..have a much higher coefficient that the likes of art media (who did they knock out again?) ...City play some great football at times...There are some good teams in the eL and some poor ones...Its a pity that its not supported better and then maybe teams could go out and buy better players...its a bit of a catch 22 really..especially in this country...

I know that the championship is at a higher standard than the eL, I never said differently...but its at the same standard as div 3 and better than div 4..also I have no doubt that most of the City team could hack it in the SPL (not old firm), there's plenty of ex average el players doing so...

So Kevin Doyle is now a better footballer than he was 3 months ago because he is playing with reading? Dont make me laugh....

a lot of people look at the facilities here and immediatley say joke league, joke football....The FAI and the government has for too long neglected its football league...we could have a vibrant national league in this country if properly funded and irish football fans gave up their fascination with british football and supported their own local teams instead..You could have crowds like back in teh 70s when you could often get 20,000 people at games in the national league. The population has increased but most of our generation has succumbed to the lure of tv football....its a shame...

[Sound]

Sound. I'll agree with that only because I agree with your signature.


Mee-ow!

[MonTheHoops]

Why should they have to go to colchester/doncaster anywhere abroad when they could get the same football education at home in this country. If the FAI invested money into the leagues clubs then we could have the facilties to do it...I'm talkiing about the future here with proper investment and planning...

The standard of the eL is not brutal..its not top notch, but brutal it is not...they played poorly against prague but didnt get slaughtered..Slavia prague are a good european team..have a much higher coefficient that the likes of art media (who did they knock out again?) ...City play some great football at times...There are some good teams in the eL and some poor ones...Its a pity that its not supported better and then maybe teams could go out and buy better players...its a bit of a catch 22 really..especially in this country...

I know that the championship is at a higher standard than the eL, I never said differently...but its at the same standard as div 3 and better than div 4..also I have no doubt that most of the City team could hack it in the SPL (not old firm), there's plenty of ex average el players doing so...

So Kevin Doyle is now a better footballer than he was 3 months ago because he is playing with reading? Dont make me laugh....

a lot of people look at the facilities here and immediatley say joke league, joke football....The FAI and the government has for too long neglected its football league...we could have a vibrant national league in this country if properly funded and irish football fans gave up their fascination with british football and supported their own local teams instead..You could have crowds like back in teh 70s when you could often get 20,000 people at games in the national league. The population has increased but most of our generation has succumbed to the lure of tv football....its a shame...

Comeretame,

You're using a lot of ifs there. IF the FAI invested and IF the players decided that they wanted to stay then I get your point. We're talking the future here with proper investment & planning - we could win the world cup and fly to the moon with proper investment and planning. As for getting the same football education? I don't think so, but that's me personally.

The standard of the eircom League is brutal. People criticise Premiership players for silly mistakes; on another thread here Rio is shit and van Nistelrooy can't buy a cow's arse and so on and so on yet we have this almost idyllic view of the eircom League as though it's something to be proud of. It's not. "Ahh leave him alone. Sure he's only a young fella". There are not many European Leagues worse than ours and we are not much smaller than Holland yet their sides are tearing up the Champions League.

As for co-efficients - Celtic's is higher than Madrid's at the moment. Do you still put your faith in co-efficients? Slavia Prague are a below average European team, as are Celtic. Celtic's star has faded in the past two seasons btu I support them and am happy to take the good with the bad. I'm not blinkered at all. The reason I know they are below average? They had to qualify for the much maligned Uefa cup and scrope past Cork City who played badly on the day.

And yes, I'm not trying to be controversial but Kevin Doyle, playing with better players, is a better player than he was 3 months ago. I'm sure he feels the difference himself.

As for your last point - yes we should all follow our local team but we should all also be going to mass and taking our vitamins etc etc. As I said, Eircom League followers have this view that the league, as with everything Irish, just fails. The 1-1 victory if you will. I know the SPL is poor, I know Celtic aren't what they used to be and I also know that Artmedia beat Porto (who beat all around them 2 seasons ago) away from home in the last Champions League game. Coefficient yadda yadda yadda - means nothing.

Like I said, I'm well aware of the failings of the SPL but don't treat criticism as a veiled attack on the Eircom League. Like the SPL, it's shit. Do you really think many of Cork city's players would turn their noses up at the opportunity of playing for Hibs/Hearts etc? I'm not stupid, most of Celtic's players would probably jump at the chance of playing in the EPL and most of City's players would jump at the thought of lining out for Hibs etc.

[MonTheHoops]

Mee-ow!
You won't lower me to your level

[Coin]

robbie keane-useless.shouldnt have started. fair play to morrison. at least he worked his socks off again.
A broken leg for Keane is the only thing that would ever stop me picking Keane over Morrison. Keane has not played well for Ireland for ages. He overcomplicates, tries to go for difficult options. But he is infinitely better than Clinton Morrison. Morrison cost us far more possessions last night with a combination of fouling, bad running angles and not getting back onside quickly enough after play broke down. Plus there was the one time when Keane did actually get somewhere on the left wing, played a ball to Clintons feet inside the box and good 'ol Clint somehow managed to play it off his own hand!

Keane is infuriating to watch with the way you feel he should be better, the way he seems to gift the ball back to the other team sometimes, but lets be honest, at one stage in the first half Morrisson actually tripped over his own legs while trying to turn.

The chances of getting a goal out of Keane are way, way higher than Morrison, who got absolutely schooled by Senderos last night (a player who's confidence was clearly in the shitter by the time Wenger dropped him for Cygan before Campbell came back). As has been mentioned above, we needed a goal and taking off a forward was simply a crazy move, but if one was to go, it should have been Morrison. Morrison is the type who often looks good on the telly, because every time you see him he's battling with his man trying to establish position, but Keane covers far more ground and does a much better job of dragging his man out of position. The only excuse I can come up with for removing Keane is that Clintons play suits the Long Ball Larry ethos that we brought last night. Keane needs ball to feet, and we didn't have a single player who can deliver that (maybe Andy Reid on a good day).

A central midfielder who can pass a ball around would have made all the difference last night. I can remember two flowing moves all night that ended up with the ball in the Swiss box, and both were started by quick feet and an accurate, 15 - 20 yard, simple but effective, pass by John O'Shea. Unfortunately John O'Shea is a full back, and cannot be expected to produce this more than a couple of times in a game. A genuine midfielder would have.

I remember Ray Houghton saying on the RTE panel after the game that put us out of the European Championships that if we didn't find a passing, creative midfielder we simply wouldn't score enough goals to qualify for the next world cup. He was right. 1 goal in 4 games against the Swiss and French was not good enough.

[Comeretamebubbilah]

Comeretame,

You're using a lot of ifs there. IF the FAI invested and IF the players decided that they wanted to stay then I get your point. We're talking the future here with proper investment & planning - we could win the world cup and fly to the moon with proper investment and planning. As for getting the same football education? I don't think so, but that's me personally.



why dont you think that with the proper infrastructure and training facilities that players couldnt get the same football education as across the pond?



The standard of the eircom League is brutal. People criticise Premiership players for silly mistakes; on another thread here Rio is shit and van Nistelrooy can't buy a cow's arse and so on and so on yet we have this almost idyllic view of the eircom League as though it's something to be proud of. It's not. "Ahh leave him alone. Sure he's only a young fella". There are not many European Leagues worse than ours and we are not much smaller than Holland yet their sides are tearing up the Champions League.



Most people I know have the view that the eL is a worthless piece of shit..Shame...It has a lot of faults but also has a lot of pluses..

Holland population = 16 300 000
Rep of Ireland population = 4 100 000

roughly the same alright....

what we should be looking at is the setup in Norway...we're there is a similar population. They have a decent league there, with good facilities in place..Most of that countries footballers start out with their local clubs and sign for bigger clubs abroad once they have proved their worth..Same thing could be possible here...

Our league is in the lower rankings of euro football, but it has been improving lately and will continue to improve with a more professional attitude in place.



As for co-efficients - Celtic's is higher than Madrid's at the moment. Do you still put your faith in co-efficients? Slavia Prague are a below average European team, as are Celtic. Celtic's star has faded in the past two seasons btu I support them and am happy to take the good with the bad. I'm not blinkered at all. The reason I know they are below average? They had to qualify for the much maligned Uefa cup and scrope past Cork City who played badly on the day.


what madrid? I find that hard to believe...Madrid have so many points built up in the last 5 years I doubt that...


And yes, I'm not trying to be controversial but Kevin Doyle, playing with better players, is a better player than he was 3 months ago. I'm sure he feels the difference himself.


we'll agree to disagree...I cant see how a player sunddenly becomes so good in 3 months...he was a fine player at city also...


As for your last point - yes we should all follow our local team but we should all also be going to mass and taking our vitamins etc etc. As I said, Eircom League followers have this view that the league, as with everything Irish, just fails. The 1-1 victory if you will.


I dont get you?


I know the SPL is poor, I know Celtic aren't what they used to be and I also know that Artmedia beat Porto (who beat all around them 2 seasons ago) away from home in the last Champions League game. Coefficient yadda yadda yadda - means nothing.

Like I said, I'm well aware of the failings of the SPL but don't treat criticism as a veiled attack on the Eircom League. Like the SPL, it's shit. Do you really think many of Cork city's players would turn their noses up at the opportunity of playing for Hibs/Hearts etc? I'm not stupid, most of Celtic's players would probably jump at the chance of playing in the EPL and most of City's players would jump at the thought of lining out for Hibs etc.

I doubt that to be honest...couldnt afford the pay cut....

[Rebelred]

Oooh. Champions League. Facing the likes of Juve, Barca and Madrid. NOT.

Ask any of them if they'd rather the chance of playing championship football than facing and being beaten by the likes of Prague.

I go to City games and I go to Celtic games and the gulf between the two is there for all to see. I can bet you that Noel Hunt is happier plying his trade with Dunfermline than he would be at City. If you want to see players rotting away, see the Eircom league.

As for Doyle, do people think he's Ronaldinho or something?
Had a conversation with friends before about this and the gulf between the SPL and the eircom league is marginal.City,Derry, Shels,Drogheda would all hold their own in the SPL,where you have 2 big teams and Hearts hopping along for the ride.

[Sound]

As for co-efficients - Celtic's is higher than Madrid's at the moment. Do you still put your faith in co-efficients?

Rubbish. Real Madrid have the 2nd highest coefficient in Europe. Celtic are 20th.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/trank2006.html

[Coin]

There are not many European Leagues worse than ours and we are not much smaller than Holland yet their sides are tearing up the Champions League.
There's 16 million of them and 4 million of us. I think they have an advantage. For true comparisons, based on population and ecomonics, you'd have to look at Denmark (5.4m), Finland (5.2m) and Norway (4.2m). Of those only Norway have made the playoffs.


Edit: This is what happens when you leave half an hour between starting and finishing a post. Someone beats you to it.

[MonTheHoops]

Rubbish. Real Madrid have the 2nd highest coefficient in Europe. Celtic are 20th.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/trank2006.html


They change from week to week.

You think we're better than those posted below?

And look where Leeds are. Boro were in Europe this season and Leeds are playing Championship football. Some may disagree but I think Galatasaray are a better side than Leeds. And Liverpool are officially better than Juventus & Arsenal while Chelsea, who beat them 4-1 recently, languish 4 places above Celtic.


21 Villarreal Esp 4.902 5.115 20.723 22.104 6.532 59.376
22 Bayer Leverkusen Ger 27.455 10.017 1.556 15.489 1.175 55.691
23 Borussia Dortmund Ger 25.455 18.017 6.556 3.489 1.175 54.691
24 Lazio Roma Ita 9.149 23.256 7.928 11.620 1.815 53.768
25 Sporting CP Lisbon Por 12.094 4.547 8.383 25.695 2.935 53.653
26 Feyenoord Ned 24.355 7.035 6.787 12.960 1.853 52.990
27 AJ Auxerre Fra 2.351 10.613 15.455 19.771 3.216 51.406
28 Ajax Ned 8.355 18.035 6.787 11.960 4.853 49.990
29 VfB Stuttgart Ger 4.455 16.017 11.556 14.489 3.175 49.691
30 AS Monaco Fra 2.351 2.612 23.455 15.771 5.216 49.406



35 Sparta Praha Cze 14.815 8.046 10.434 4.949 5.031 43.274

58 Leeds United Eng 11.819 11.520 3.712 5.138 1.933 34.122
61 Galatasaray Tur 14.856 5.540 9.145 1.774 1.907 33.222
62 Middlesbrough Eng 3.818 3.520 3.712 17.139 4.933 33.122
63 PAOK Thessaloniki Gre 11.713 9.365 5.375 2.035 2.770 31.257
64 Ipswich Town Eng 11.819 8.520 3.712 5.138 1.933 31.122



Cmeretame,


why dont you think that with the proper infrastructure and training facilities that players couldnt get the same football education as across the pond?

I never said that. You mentioned that players should stay. My point is why should they stay here when they can get a better education across the pond. That's the way it is now, here, in the present. Not in FAI fantasyland.

I never said Doyle wasn't a fine player at City but now he's playing against better players and it's bound to have an effect on him. If he was failing over there then it would be a different story but he's obviously stepped it up a bit since moving to say that he's doing as well as he is. He's also a full time pro too and has all the facilities he could want at his disposal. So better? Yes, I think so.

For EPL - see English Premier League

[Sound]

They change from week to week.

You think we're better than those posted below?


In fairness now lad, just stop willa?

Celtic haven't been above Real Madrid in the European club coefficients in the last 5 years. You used an incorrect stat to back up a point. Just accept it and move on.

[MonTheHoops]

In fairness now lad, just stop willa?

Celtic haven't been above Real Madrid in the European club coefficients in the last 5 years. You used an incorrect stat to back up a point. Just accept it and move on.

Yep. That's what I did. I accept that. I did think at a point we were above them as I remember us being in the top 4 or 5 at one point. Just once you accept that Uefa rankings are horse shit so it matters not what rank Prague were when City lost to them.

[Sound]

Yep. That's what I did. I accept that. I did think at a point we were above them as I remember us being in the top 4 or 5 at one point. Just once you accept that Uefa rankings are horse shit so it matters not what rank Prague were when City lost to them.


My own feelings on the subject in general are that there are a fair City players that would make the grade overseas if given the chance. Flynn and Kearney spring to mind. I also think that it is a gross failing of management that people like Doyle only get considered when they go abroad. But this is not confined to Kerr- look at Sven with Crouch.

On coefficients, I agree that coefficients dont tell you everything of the relative ability of a team. Prague are better than their coefficent as are Artmedia. But I fail to see how you can criticise City for being beaten by a 'lowly' team like Prague and at the same time exonerate Celtic for being destroyed by the mighty Media?

[MonTheHoops]

My own feelings on the subject in general are that there are a fair City players that would make the grade overseas if given the chance. Flynn and Kearney spring to mind. I also think that it is a gross failing of management that people like Doyle only get considered when they go abroad. But this is not confined to Kerr- look at Sven with Crouch.

On coefficients, I agree that coefficients dont tell you everything of the relative ability of a team. Prague are better than their coefficent as are Artmedia. But I fail to see how you can criticise City for being beaten by a 'lowly' team like Prague and at the same time exonerate Celtic for being destroyed by the mighty Media?


Sound, that's exactly my point. I'm not exonerating Celtic at all but people are putting Artmedia down because of their ranking but in the past 3 months they've beaten us and Porto, both Uefa cup finalists in 2003. Not bad for a "crap" team. Prague are no slouches either. The original point was that Prague have a higher coefficient than Artmedia and my point is that it means nothing at all because those rankings are a load of manure.

My point re: Irish youth is exactly this, and I'm not basing it on what could, would or should happen:

Irish guys are playing in the eircom league who could possibly make it across the waves. Thing is, some of them have been and didn't make it, an awful lot of it is luck too. Scouts can look at a player and decide "Nah, too Irish looking". Their loss is City's gain.

However, no matter how much we hope for better facilities the fact of the matter is they're not here and so…………Irish players are better off crossing the waves and having a craic at it where everything will be geared towards making them successful. Some are unlucky and some are kept and prosper.

[Comeretamebubbilah]

.

However, no matter how much we hope for better facilities the fact of the matter is they're not here and so…………Irish players are better off crossing the waves and having a craic at it where everything will be geared towards making them successful. Some are unlucky and some are kept and prosper.

But are the likes of colchester and the like really that much better than City....Doyler didnt do too bad..I still feel a few years education in the eL would be better for players than moving to the likes of scunthorpe etc.The player can finish school etc and at least if he doesnt make it then he has something to fall back on...I'm sick of seeing players come back with no education, their enthusiasm gone, their confidence smashed and a lot of them never play footie properly again...English clubs treat our players as investments and throw them to the scrapheap when they dont work out as planned...I just think its sad that youngsters think that they have to go across the pond to make it as a footballer..

[MonTheHoops]

But are the likes of colchester and the like really that much better than City....



I just think its sad that youngsters think that they have to go across the pond to make it as a footballer..


On point a - the likes of Colchester etc are not that much better than City I'll agree but it's all about showcasing your talent. I actually think that eircom League players have to fight a lot harder to get noticed by "big" clubs then they would have to do in England.

On your last point ' it certainly is sad but it´s life as we know it. Who wouldn´t want to test their ability across the pond though, who wouldn´t like a crack at making it?

[Comeretamebubbilah]

On your last point ' it certainly is sad but it´s life as we know it. Who wouldn´t want to test their ability across the pond though, who wouldn´t like a crack at making it?

that didnt come out the way i wanted to express it...my point was that i think its sad that fellas think they have to go across channel to start their life as a footballer...I have no problem with fellas going on to play at a higher level once they have proven themselves...

it should have read...

I just think its sad that youngsters think that they have to initially go across the pond to make it as a footballer..

its not that hard to get noticed..if you are playing well consistently then you will get noticed...and with a PIMP for an U21 manager..every club in england will know about you...There's a good chance of being picked for the underage teams as you will more likely be playing more 1st team football etc...

[Up For The Ba]

Why should they have to go to colchester/doncaster anywhere abroad when they could get the same football education at home in this country. If the FAI invested money into the leagues clubs then we could have the facilties to do it...I'm talkiing about the future here with proper investment and planning...


a lot of people look at the facilities here and immediatley say joke league, joke football....The FAI and the government has for too long neglected its football league...we could have a vibrant national league in this country if properly funded and irish football fans gave up their fascination with british football and supported their own local teams instead..You could have crowds like back in teh 70s when you could often get 20,000 people at games in the national league. The population has increased but most of our generation has succumbed to the lure of tv football....its a shame...

I think in theory everybody would like to see this happening but its hard to see how the ball would get rolling.

Does the FAI have the funding/resources to achieve this??

A really big push would have to be made to encourage more people to go to eircom league games. Fair play to city I suppose, they are taking a step in the right direction with the proposed new development but money talks these days and we havent got it over here. The cross channel commercial lure is too strong for both players or supporters to ignore.

Most young footballers will take the chance of a cross channel break at the age of 15/16 when realisticly the wiser move would be to hold tough, the logic being that if you are good enough, you`ll make it anyway, i dont think 20/21 is an unreasonable age for young talent to go accross. Maybe some sort of stipulation that anybody under the age of 18 be kept in ireland to ensure they dont go over to rot in some reserve team and come back a broken, disillusioned player. The stats say that 1 in every 100 will make it accross the water, surely there`s a fair few of them who might have just gone through a bad stint over there and came home with their confidence drained. Maybe its a little far fetched but with some sort of control over the export of players you`d be able to hang onto the better ones for longer, making our leagues better to watch and therefore generating more interest from where its needed, local support.

[Coin]

Maybe some sort of stipulation that anybody under the age of 18 be kept in ireland to ensure they dont go over to rot in some reserve team and come back a broken, disillusioned player.
European employment legislation will probably make that tough. UEFA is starting to make the effort with its proposed rules about players from academies and whatever, but they're going to find it hard to get through.

[STEVIEG]

If the FAI actually paid any attention to our national league and invested properly in it then maybe players could develop their playing careers here. Doyle is a great example of this. Was never across the pond until teh reading move. He learned his trade in the eL, played competitive football at a decent level for a few seasons gaining much more experience than rotting away at reserve team level.


True, players like Kevin Moran (who's circumstances were obviously different) and even Roy Keane went over quite late and made a long standing impact.

[Fat Tom]

Oooh. Champions League. Facing the likes of Juve, Barca and Madrid. NOT.

Ask any of them if they'd rather the chance of playing championship football than facing and being beaten by the likes of Prague.

I go to City games and I go to Celtic games and the gulf between the two is there for all to see. I can bet you that Noel Hunt is happier plying his trade with Dunfermline than he would be at City. If you want to see players rotting away, see the Eircom league.

As for Doyle, do people think he's Ronaldinho or something?

For once we are in total agreeance.
The calls on here for Doyle are ridiculous.
Look at Connolly's record in Championship, he is even at a prem club now, and he is still fucking useless.
Keane is 3rd choice at totenham and we are calling for his head.
Doyle isn't even in the same bracket as these guys.

[Sound]

For once we are in total agreeance.
The calls on here for Doyle are ridiculous.
Look at Connolly's record in Championship, he is even at a prem club now, and he is still fucking useless.
Keane is 3rd choice at totenham and we are calling for his head.
Doyle isn't even in the same bracket as these guys.

He's worth a go now though as we have nothing to lose. Duffer was in the Championship not so long ago and now he's a league winner. Just because there is a precedence with Connolly etc does not mean it will be true with Doyle on anyone else for that matter.

[Fat Tom]

Duff had done it at the top level before they went down though.
Doyle is as of yet unproven and if we have to revert to unproven Championship strikers then we are in trouble.

Saying that what we have there at the moment are doing SFA.
A couple of friendlies to try him out but he needs a bit more experience.

He is doing well though but I'd still take Keane and Morrison over him at the moment.

[Captain Planet]

He is doing well though but I'd still take Keane and Morrison over him at the moment.

but would you take doherty over him. at least doyle has an eye for goal.

[Fat Tom]

I wouldn't take Doherty over Karl Spain's leftovers.

[ho chi feen]

Very DHesque threa title, Sound.

[STEVIEG]

Doyle isn't even in the same bracket as these guys.

He's playing at the same level as a player who will potentially get in Engerlunds World Cup side, Andy Johnson. If he keeps scoring he may well be a premiership player next season while the likes of Elliot (very good player) may be playing in a lower division.

[Sound]

Very DHesque threa title, Sound.

Indeed. And I seem to be saying the 'cunt' an awful lot as well. That place is rubbing off on me..

[Fat Tom]

He's playing at the same level as a player who will potentially get in Engerlunds World Cup side, Andy Johnson. If he keeps scoring he may well be a premiership player next season while the likes of Elliot (very good player) may be playing in a lower division.

andy johnson hasn't a hope because of the division he is in.

My point re Doyle is that he hasn't set the world on fire yet so lets not go touting him as the next Pele just coz he played for City.

He could well be a very good player, but look at how Keane was looked at to what he is now.
Doyle has potential but he isn't the finished article and if we are to make any impact on the international stage we need strikers starting or making an impact at big clubs in a major European League (not Scotland)

[STEVIEG]

Andy Johnson is where Peter Crouch could well be the difference being that a team came in for Crouch (who got good reviews for his Engerlund performances) Your right, he mightn't get picked now for Engerlund but Engerlund are going to Germany and also have Michael Owen and Wayne Rooney, not to mention Jermaine Defoe.
Ireland haven't got that much better than Doyle and this time next year he could well be our main man for goals, but then again, we won't know till then.

[MonTheHoops]

Doyle has potential but he isn't the finished article and if we are to make any impact on the international stage we need strikers starting or making an impact at big clubs in a major European League (not Scotland)


Sweden did ok with Larsson up front. And didn't he play in Scotland Tom? He's now plying his trade for some small side in Spain somewhere.

[Comeretamebubbilah]

We havent exactly got a big pool of strikers to choose from..

keane, elliot, morrison and connolly would all be ahead of Doyle now but after a full season in div 2 we'll see how well Doyle is doing...he was excellent against ipswich in sunday and has been getting great reviews all season.

He was fantastic for City and is proving to be a big hit with reading..He should be judged at the end of the season..I'd rate him ahead of doherty and connolly myself and on a par with morrison at the moment in terms of Ireland places..but thats just opinion...

People go on about not good enough etc.. but where the hell are the alternatives? there are none currently...

[Fat Tom]

He isn't doing much there is he.
Players at a young age like Doyle need games at the highest level, where is he more likely to become a better player - England or Scotland?

[Comeretamebubbilah]

He isn't doing much there is he.
Players at a young age like Doyle need games at the highest level, where is he more likely to become a better player - England or Scotland?

spain.....

[Fat Tom]

Andy Johnson is where Peter Crouch could well be the difference being that a team came in for Crouch (who got good reviews for his Engerlund performances) Your right, he mightn't get picked now for Engerlund but Engerlund are going to Germany and also have Michael Owen and Wayne Rooney, not to mention Jermaine Defoe.
Ireland haven't got that much better than Doyle and this time next year he could well be our main man for goals, but then again, we won't know till then.

I don't doubt it but he needs to be doing it consistently, the others are still ahead of him right now.

[MonTheHoops]

He isn't doing much there is he.
Players at a young age like Doyle need games at the highest level, where is he more likely to become a better player - England or Scotland?


England every time Tom but that doesn't mean that it can't be done. You say "not Scotland". Is Albania, Norway and Liechenstein acceptable.

And Larsson is doing not too bad at Barca - until he got injured. Check out his scoring record for them before his injury.

[Fat Tom]

No they wouldn't, what I mean is that we need strikers who are banging in goals at a major European Club/ League.

If we are to succeed as a nation.

People say the players we have or crap - we still have better talent at our disposal as Israel, Switzerland and many other countries from Europe who have qualified or who are in a play off.

[Langer Dan]

No they wouldn't, what I mean is that we need strikers who are banging in goals at a major European Club/ League.

If we are to succeed as a nation.

People say the players we have or crap - we still have better talent at our disposal as Israel, Switzerland and many other countries from Europe who have qualified or who are in a play off.

ya but we lacked a manger capable of getting big performances from his team like say Greece in the EC or Sth. Korea in the last WC.

Isn't there a meeting on Kerr's future today?

[Fat Tom]

Exactly.

Someone like Martin O Neill would get the best out of this bunch.

They'll be lacking a presence on the pitch like Keane now as well.

[MonTheHoops]

No they wouldn't, what I mean is that we need strikers who are banging in goals at a major European Club/ League.

If we are to succeed as a nation.

People say the players we have or crap - we still have better talent at our disposal as Israel, Switzerland and many other countries from Europe who have qualified or who are in a play off.

Tom, what you're saying so is not that we need players banging in goals at a top league, what we need is better players.

Don't know if you've noticed but we don't have guys banging in goals at top clubs. Would you be happy with someone of Larsson's ability playing up front for us even if it were the Scottish League he were plying his trade?

[Fat Tom]

Deffo, Larsson is an exception to what I was on about.

We need someone top class but it doesn't look good at the moment.

[MonTheHoops]

Deffo, Larsson is an exception to what I was on about.

We need someone top class but it doesn't look good at the moment.

Like I said, it's top class players we want, regardless of the league they are plying their trade in. Look at Celtic's run to Seville in 2003. We had 4 or 5 good players and the rest was made up of average players whose game was improved by the league they played in i.e. the confidence they got playing in the SPL gave them the confidence to try things agianst your bigger sides. Don't forget that in the past 5 seasons we've taken on and beaten Barca, Juve, Liverpool, Porto etc.
If guys like David Connolly were banging in the goals in the SPL, and occasionally taking on some European sides then I have no doubt Ireland would reap the rewards. I don't think it will do Elliot or Connolly any good to be brushed aside week after week in the Premiership. In fact, a move to an SPL club might suit one of them down to the ground. It did Bellamy no harm.