Arsenal's first choice lineup this season

[Philby]

This side started (and won) against Ajax -

Lehmann

Lauren Toure Senderos Cole

Ljungberg Flamini Pires Reyes

Bergkamp Henry

How much will this change for the coming season? I can see it being more like the line-up below

Lehmann

Lauren Toure Senderos Cole

Ljungberg Fabregas* Pires* Reyes

Hleb
Henry

This is the real area up for debate.

Pires - Not his natural position but can slot in there. As he matures as a player it may suit him better than being out on the wing

Fabregas - Fabulous player but is he too inexperienced to rely on for a full season in the engine room?

Flamini - Not as talented as Fabregas but a few yrs old, more robust & has a better engine

Gilberto - Will add experience and athleticism to the midfield but was always second filddle to Vieira..don't think he has a good enough all-round game to replace Vieira

I can see many different combination of these 4 players above used throughout the season - they may even go out and buy a direct replacement for Vieira.

As Arsenal have a team of talented, adaptable footballers (Reyes, Hleb, Pires esp) all capable of playing in multiple positions it'll come down to how well Wenger blends them and tailors his line-up for the opposition (esp. in big games)

[STEVIEG]

Wenger didn't look to perturbed yesterday after the match (they still have a great squad) like United Arsenal will be there or thereabouts this season although obviously Chgelsea will be firm favourites to win the league.

[Philby]

The gap between the winners this year (Chelsea imho) and (1) the 2nd placed team and (2) the fourth placed team will be significantly smaller. While Chelsea's new-found financial muscle isn't to everyone's taste it will have the effect of pushing United, Arsenal & Livepool on to a higher level they wouldn't have reached otherwise.

Chelsea will be the team to beat this year. Teams will raise their game against them & will put deep thought into counter-acting them. for example the use of pacey full-backs and a keane/hamann/makalele type defensive midfielder will serve to nullif Robben/Duff/SWP to a certain extent as they won't be able to roast full-backs at will and have free reign on any knock-downs from Crespo/Logba.

This season will be a war. Can't wait for it.

[STEVIEG]

This season will be a war. Can't wait for it.


You should get a job with Sky Sports!

[Philby]

"4 Titans prepare for battle, no quarter given or asked for...and there's only one place you can see it..."

<< cue montage with high tempo music, crunching tackles and slow-mo close-ups of Gerrard, Terry, Keane & Henry looking a bit miffed >>

[STEVIEG]

Can't wait all the same!

[Philby]

it would have been a good thread to debate except till I read what you wrote about gilberto. after that i stopped reading the thread

I wrote:

Gilberto - Will add experience and athleticism to the midfield but was always second filddle to Vieira..don't think he has a good enough all-round game to replace Vieira

Please tell me what was so offensive about the line above that caused you to stop reading the thread?

[Rebelred]

To be honest philby,couldnt believe it either when i saw you hadnt included gilberto.gilbertos absence cost arsenal alot last year.compare their form/results while he was out to when he returned,big difference.i can see them being alot closer to chelsea this season if they can stay injury free
i think the gunners midfield will be

Freddie Fabregas Gilberto Reyes

[shammy feen]

You should get a job with Sky Sports!

Its going to be carnage!

[Philby]

It is widely accepted that gilberto down the majority of the work and a big cause for vieiras supposed decline and arsenals weak title defense was because the brazilian was missing.

To first pick a team and not include him is farcicule but to say that he played second fiddle to vieira is even more nuts.

I could go on and ask how at 33 in october a player like pires will mature more?

but I wont.

Gilberto is more important to the arsenal team than vieira was. It took his absence for everyone (including me) to realise that. Which is why vieira was sold and wont be replaced.



1. Pires is 31 and will be 32 in october, not 33. In terms of maturing it's natural that once a player hits that age he will lose a bit of his pace & may benefit more from playiing centrally where his ability to link the play & set people up are more important than being able to burn a full-back with pace

2. I never said Gilberto wouldn't start, in fact I said that it was an area that was very much up for debate.

I can see many different combination of these 4 players above used throughout the season - they may even go out and buy a direct replacement for Vieira.

3. Vieira was a better all-round player than Gilberto. He did the donkey work for years at arsenal (and still managed to make regular forward forays) but the inclusion of Gilberto gave him more freedom to dictate the play and link with the strikers/wide men. If required he could do the defensive midfielder role every bit as well (imho better) as Gilberto.

Gilberto is more important to the arsenal team than vieira was

I don't buy that. Vieira's was the heartbeat of the team for years & his influence was massive. Arsenal will miss this in a big way imho.

If Vieira has a bad few games everyone notices. If Gilberto does likewise it's hardly mentioned. He set implausably high standards and was judged by those. With the expectation that Vieira previously carried now firmly on the Brazilian's shoulders he won't able to hide.

Vieira's loss will be keenly felt in North London (although in the long-term it may have been necessary to further develop the team as a whole).

To first pick a team and not include him is farcicule but to say that he played second fiddle to vieira is even more nuts.

So you are saying that Gilberto has outperformed Vieira since the brazilian's arrival at the club? No chance.

[Philby]

I don't think Gilberto is a bad player but this revisionist "He carried Vieira" is non-sensical. It's utter madness.

Milan were gutted to lose Vieira. Real tracked him for ~5 years. United would've killed to sign him. The Italian champs have shelled out a sizeable amount for him considering his age.

Gilberto has raised no such interest. Please don't tell me it's because only you with your superior knowledge of the game can spot his genius. Gilberto is a handy, yet limited player. Great engine, good in the air & a good professional. No more.

Vieira will go down as one of the finest midfielders of his generation. Gilberto will be viewed as a workmanlike midfielder who found a nice in a team of superior players.

You've shown that you haven't been on here for long if you're using the Lampard-Makalele duo as a comparison (ask shammy)...

[STEVIEG]

He's been here for long alright!

[Sound]

I Please don't tell me it's because only you with your superior knowledge of the game can spot his genius.

How dare you doubt that Naff knows more about football than the combined management teams of Juve, ManUSA and Real.

Shame on you!

[Philby]

Gilberto is average on the ball. Has an average eye for a pass & is an average crosser of the ball. Is a poor finisher.

For a midfielder those are significant limitations. Yes defensively he's very useful & he fulfills a useful role for Arsenal but if you were to play him in a more attacking role (ala Gerrard & to an extent the role Vieira played when Gilberto was in the side) he would struggle as he doesn't have that class on the ball.

People get blinded by razzle and dazzle. Vieira was an outstanding player but only when sum1 good was longside of him. Petit made him look good and gilberto made him look good.

I would say it's decidedly the other way around to be honest. Look at the course of their various careers when they haven't been paired together. Vieira's has been a step above Manu's. Similarly despite being only marginally older than Gilberto look at Vieira's achievements & standing (not a pun on his short leg!) in the modern game compared to Gilberto's. Streets apart.
Also please, less of the condescending "you've just hown that you don't watch Arsenal" sh1t. It's childish

[Sound]

I refer you to my new signature.

[Sound]

a fact is sumting that can be proven.
glad you court lies as signature.

Court Lies? You've lost us there, I'd say.

Anyway, I thought you were done wasting your time arguing with people like us on the internet?

[Sound]

im not arguing.....
if the guy doesnt appreciate what gilberto does in the arsenal side then he doesnt watch arsenal much.
maybe thats why gilbertos knickname is the invicible wall.
your posting lies with that signature.

Gotta be pedantic here. The sign '>' means 'bigger than' or 'worth more than' when the more valuable article is to the left. So the statement is correct.

Heh, heh, heh.

[Sound]

wrong again
http://www.phoenix5.org/glossary/symbolGT.html

Thats exactly what I said. Reading difficulties?

[Sound]

again, i shall gladly take your congratulations for coercing naff naff into the sports forum. i thank you....

To be fair, it'd be dull without him!

[Philby]

its not childish, its true.
his standings?
if i were you id check what gilbertos pass rate/success rate
tackle rate/success rate is compared to vieira.
Id also maybe watch arsenal in future and keep an eye out for the man knicknamed the invisible wall.
Or maybe you should stick to liverpool, you seem to have at least a decent knowledge of their game.

I've recognised that he's a good defensive midfielder with a great engine and ability in the air. Please tell what else I'm missing when I watch Gilberto O wise one?

The "you've just hown that you don't watch Arsenal" stuff is childish fella. Someone disagrees with you and you instantly dismiss them as someone who doesn't watch Arsenal.

Please do this for me. Spell out your argument on why you believe that Gilberto is a better, more rounded player than Vieira. I'd be interested to hear your reasoning (besides simply quoting some obscure nickname some internet dwellers have given him as your sole source of evidence).

[Philby]

So he's tall & can play simple passes. Two things I've already given him credit for. Just because Arsene comes out and says he rates him doesn't instantly make him better than Vieira.

As I said previously - Please do this for me. Spell out your argument on why you believe that Gilberto is a better, more rounded player than Vieira. I'd be interested to hear your reasoning. I can type "Gilberto + Wenger" into google as well as the next man but I want to hear why YOU think he's better than Vieira.

BTW I've been to see Arsenal at highbury last season (can you say the same) & have seen many of their games on TV

[Philby]

1. Do you know what limited means? It doesn't mean sh1t (which you seem to think it does), in a football sense it means that there are some parts of your game which are less developed in others. As a midfielder the ability to thread pin-point passes & score goals are valuable commodities. Gilberto doesn't have these therefore he has limitations

2. "you even put fabregas a 17/18 year old midfielder ahead of a world cup winner?" - awful argument. Kleberson & Roque Junior were also world cup winners and they're both pretty average player. Fabregas is a future world-class player, he has shown already in 1/2 season of football that he is a far more gifted player than Gilberto.

3. "Proof of gilberto's importance to arsenal football club is the fact he's still at highbury" - by that token the fact that Cygan is still at the club is proof that he's better than Toure. back to school

4 "Isnt it funny that you call a guy whos nickname is the invisible wall "limited" " - please tell me why that's funny. Just cos some gooners on the web give a player a nickname doesn't protect him from any criticism of his game. Bruno "the new Zidane" Cheyrou is awful, nickname or no nickname

[Philby]

is it now?

Ok, lets trade players best on the quality of their nickname. That's a fair measure. I'll trade you Salif "the new Vieira" Diao for Thierry Henry (he doesn't really have a nickname so must therefore be pants)

[ho chi feen]

So you are saying that Gilberto has outperformed Vieira since the brazilian's arrival at the club? No chance.

Maybe not from the outset, but over the last 2 seasons? Definitely. Vieira had a very quiet year when they won the title, and last season I don't think I need to elaborate upon. Their form slumped badly in Gilberto's absence, and picked up remarkably upon his return. They were staring at third place at one point, don't forget. Vieira's performances were consistently below par all season, and thus no barometer for the team's form at any given time.

[Philby]

While neither Fabregas or Gilberto have had great seasons so far I think it's fair to say that vieira has indeed been missed. I think even Wenger himself will admit that (although with consideration of their large stadium expenditure it may have made sense from a business point of view)

Fabregas is a fine prospect but needs a few more years to be anywhere near his full potential while Gilberto is, as I have said in the past, a limited player who is good at certain jobs (running, tackling, heading) but simply doesn't have the ability on the ball to match Fabregas or Vieira (his schoolboy f*ck-up at the weekend was further evidence of that)

[Fat Tom]

While neither Fabregas or Gilberto have had great seasons so far I think it's fair to say that vieira has indeed been missed. I think even Wenger himself will admit that (although with consideration of their large stadium expenditure it may have made sense from a business point of view)

Fabregas is a fine prospect but needs a few more years to be anywhere near his full potential while Gilberto is, as I have said in the past, a limited player who is good at certain jobs (running, tackling, heading) but simply doesn't have the ability on the ball to match Fabregas or Vieira (his schoolboy f*ck-up at the weekend was further evidence of that)

I think Vieira fell under the category of more high profile palyer being analysed more.
He obviously wasn't up to his usual standards but his performaces were still far better than a lot of his peers.

Gilberto does a lot of donkey work but is no great soccer player.

[Philby]

An Arsenal expert underlines my point (which was widely ridiculed on here a few months back) that Gilberto is a poor man's Vieira and ultimately nowhere near as talented as Fabregas.

Why is the midfield so weak?


Because Edu and Vieira were not replaced.





Gilberto was a good partner for Vieira.



But without Vieira he is lost.



Vieira carried Gilberto for three years and made him a viable Arsenal player.



Without Vieira, Gilberto is exposed, an embarrassment.



Gilberto needs a minder.

But he's playing with a kid whose skeleton is still developing, and the kid needs a minder.



Cesc Fabregas is the best 18-year old midfielder I've seen for 35 years. Since Alan Hudson.



Fabregas is Arsenal's best midfield player by a mile.



But he should not be carrying a threadbare midfield at his age.



Patrick Vieira made Petit look good.



He made Grimandi and Parlour look good. He took short balls from Sol. He could find Bergkamp blindfolded. He had a nine-year relationship with Bergkamp, a five or six-year relationship with Henry, Pires and Ljungberg.



If you sell him, you rip away all the relationships which make the team tick.

Selling Vieira was the biggest mistake Arsenal have made since 1973 when they sold Frank McLintock to QPR.

http://www.anr.uk.com/articles/m-2005-12-12-09-16-30.html

[ho chi feen]

While neither Fabregas or Gilberto have had great seasons so far I think it's fair to say that vieira has indeed been missed. I think even Wenger himself will admit that (although with consideration of their large stadium expenditure it may have made sense from a business point of view)

Fabregas is a fine prospect but needs a few more years to be anywhere near his full potential while Gilberto is, as I have said in the past, a limited player who is good at certain jobs (running, tackling, heading) but simply doesn't have the ability on the ball to match Fabregas or Vieira (his schoolboy f*ck-up at the weekend was further evidence of that)

Yes, you were right.

I still stand by my statements that Vieira's form was below par for a couple of years, but he's not been replaced at all. And, as you well, I've had my criticisms of Arsenal in the past, but I've been amazed at seeing how insipid and utterly spineless a team they really are- without Paddy V.

[the puerto rican feen]

Yes, you were right.

I still stand by my statements that Vieira's form was below par for a couple of years, but he's not been replaced at all. And, as you well, I've had my criticisms of Arsenal in the past, but I've been amazed at seeing how insipid and utterly spineless a team they really are- without Paddy V.


exactly, they have got no bottle !!

The viera of 2-3 years ago would have taken the game on sunday by the scruff of the neck

[ho chi feen]

Yes, you were right.

I still stand by my statements that Vieira's form was below par for a couple of years, but he's not been replaced at all. And, as you well, I've had my criticisms of Arsenal in the past, but I've been amazed at seeing how insipid and utterly spineless a team they really are- without Paddy V.


Bah.

I should have stuck by my original judgement. Threw in the towel way too soon on this one, so I can't really claim I told you so, but:

Vieira has been an even bigger flop at Juve than Beckham has been at the Bernebeu. All the worst aspects of his final two seasons at Higbury have manifested themselves as the standout features of his season: Lack of motivation; Lethargy; Mutedness; Poor passing; Inconsitency... okay, maybe not the last one. He has been consistently below-par, if nothing else.

Tellingly, he was swept aside by old team-mates and replacements in the Champion's League. I couldn't imagine Vieira c. 1998-2002 being disposessed so easily by Pires.

Philby, if not to me, I think you have to acknowledge to Naff Naff that he got it right and you got wrong. As for me, maybe I should trust my own conviction more in future. Although, to be fair, I had it wrong to a degree about this Arsenal team- but I'd say I'm far from unique in that regard.

[xvis]

a team like Juventus should not be buying a player like Viera at that stage of his career. I was also of the view that his last 2 seasons at Arsenal were below his earlier standards and Wenger did well to cash in at the right time.

ditto Real and Beckham, Juve as a leading national side should be looking to get players during their peak years and leave the twilight years to the likes of Bolton and Boro.

[Captain Planet]

I hope to see Eboue in the lineup next year. hes good at getting forward for them. hard to believe he would be in the reserves probably only for the injuries they had.

[Philby]

Bah.

I should have stuck by my original judgement. Threw in the towel way too soon on this one, so I can't really claim I told you so, but:

Vieira has been an even bigger flop at Juve than Beckham has been at the Bernebeu. All the worst aspects of his final two seasons at Higbury have manifested themselves as the standout features of his season: Lack of motivation; Lethargy; Mutedness; Poor passing; Inconsitency... okay, maybe not the last one. He has been consistently below-par, if nothing else.

Tellingly, he was swept aside by old team-mates and replacements in the Champion's League. I couldn't imagine Vieira c. 1998-2002 being disposessed so easily by Pires.

Philby, if not to me, I think you have to acknowledge to Naff Naff that he got it right and you got wrong. As for me, maybe I should trust my own conviction more in future. Although, to be fair, I had it wrong to a degree about this Arsenal team- but I'd say I'm far from unique in that regard.

As I said previously - "Vieira will go down as one of the finest midfielders of his generation. Gilberto will be viewed as a workmanlike midfielder who found a niche in a team of superior players" - I stand by that 100%.

The crux of my agrument was that Gilberto was not as good a player as Vieira which I believe without question. I never gave a cast-iron guarantee that Vieira would continue to outperform Gilberto for the rest of his career.

[ho chi feen]

As I said previously - "Vieira will go down as one of the finest midfielders of his generation. Gilberto will be viewed as a workmanlike midfielder who found a niche in a team of superior players" - I stand by that 100%.

The crux of my agrument was that Gilberto was not as good a player as Vieira which I believe without question. I never gave a cast-iron guarantee that Vieira would continue to outperform Gilberto for the rest of his career.

Possibly you're right. I'm not going to go back throughout the whole thread, so I'll take your word on it. The crux of my original argument, however, and probably Naff Naff's too was that Arsenal would be a better team without Vieira. I think we were both correct on this. I don't think either of us claimed that Gilberto was a better player, because he isn't really- but that having a player to play Gilberto's role was of more benefit to the team than a below-par Vieira. Certainly, this was the case in Arsenal's fine run during the run in last season. This season, it's been less true, but it's still clear that Arsenal have benefited greatly. I don't think, with hindsight, their problems earlier this season had much to with Vieira's absence, and I couldn't see them playing the brand of football that's seen them sweep aside the cream of Europe with him in the side. And as a long term poster Philby, you know I've been very sceptical of some of the praise lavished on Arsenal in the past.

I made it clear last year that I was very impressed with what Liverpool achieved in Europe once the group stages ended. I tipped them to beat Juve when only Naff Naff was willing to put his neck out. I tipped them to beat Chelsea too, which went against the current on the board. I called the final wrong, but fuck it, that was a very unique kind of game (note, I didn't say 'fortunate'). I didn't tip Arsenal to do what they've done this term, and if anything, the manner in which they've set about has impressed me even more greatly than what the dippers did last term. I can't see them beating Barca, but they probably will and all because they've proved me spectacularly wrong in Europe this term! As a dipper, do you feel that might diminish your lot's amazing achievement last term?

[Philby]

Yes, massively. Which is why (being a bitter bastard) I hope they don't do it. I'll be able to mask that though by saying I'm up for Barca as they are the outstanding team in Europe at the moment with the most entertaining player in the world in their side.

I'm shocked how well their defence has held up so far in europe but that shouldn't cloud over the fact that they have slipped massively in the league. As far as I'm aware Mr. Wenger hasn't finished outside the top 2 since he has been at Arsenal, this year they were haunted not to end up in 5th place.

[ho chi feen]

Yes, massively. Which is why (being a bitter bastard) I hope they don't do it. I'll be able to mask that though by saying I'm up for Barca as they are the outstanding team in Europe at the moment with the most entertaining player in the world in their side.

I'm shocked how well their defence has held up so far in europe but that shouldn't cloud over the fact that they have slipped massively in the league. As far as I'm aware Mr. Wenger hasn't finished outside the top 2 since he has been at Arsenal, this year they were haunted not to end up in 5th place.

Yup.

I don't think they have an outstanding defence as such, no more so than they did in last year's run-in, during which time they conceded very few goals. But they really seem to excel in defending as a team. It was unusual to see the Gooners refuse to attack United as they did at Highnbury in January (although they did something similar in last season's FA Cup), but they denied us any chance to get at them. And they've defended brilliantly in Europe to boot.

Casting my mind back to last season, in the aftermath of Istanbul, Red Issue took their site offline for about a week, leaving only the following message: "Football is dead". :p I'm sure your lot wouldn't go to that extreme, but no doubt it would be a sickener all the same.