We are the first democracy ever to decide the poor must pay our debts

[ProfessorPwn]

We are the first democracy ever to decide the poor must pay our debts

By Fergus Finlay

Tuesday, December 15, 2009

IT may not really have sunk in yet.

Or perhaps we want to go on denying what we’ve done.

Last week our parliament voted through a budget and a social welfare bill that fundamentally and forever changed the character of our society.

We deliberately and consciously decided to attack the poorer people among us. We voted to take money from people who have little or nothing. It was a moment when we knew no shame.

The people we decided to attack are people who depend on us. And I’m not just talking about people who have only a social welfare income to fall back on. Throughout Ireland there are thousands of people – most of them, incidentally, women – who depend on the meagre wages they get as cleaners and ward assistants in our hospitals, as home helps in the community, as special needs assistants in our classrooms.

Many of them are the sole breadwinners for their families. They get up early, pack kids off to school and go out to earn enough to keep the wolf from the door. Sure, some do it to add a second source of income to the household, to bring a bit of comfort home. But there are literally thousands for whom a low-paying job is the only income they know.

And now, if they work in our schools or our hospitals, or if they provide almost literally life-saving services to elderly people in their homes, they are being told they have to take a pay cut of 5%.

The pittance that most of these women earn is tiny and there is gross unfairness in the decision to cut it. The only crime these women ever committed – the only thing they did wrong to deserve a pay cut – is to work in the public service.

But of course nobody ever thinks of them when we’re debating "the public service".

The public service is some mythical monster, greedily fattening itself while our whole future goes down the drain. It abuses its sick leave, it gorges itself on huge pensions, it eats up all our resources and keeps coming back for more.

We don’t want to face the fact that there are thousands of people who work in the service of the public for very low wages indeed.

We might feel guilty about cutting their wages because we’d never want to cut the few bob the cleaner gets in our own office, would we?

But even if we can comfort ourselves by lumping all public servants together, and by telling ourselves they all have fantastic working conditions, how do we face what we’ve done to other groups of people this past week?

How do you qualify for a carer’s allowance, for example? Well, first you have to live with someone who needs constant care and attention. Let’s say you are caring for someone with Alzheimer’s – a terrible disease that slowly (and sometimes not so slowly) kills the soul of someone you have loved and who loved you. It’s that love that makes you give up work and abandon income to try to make them as comfortable as possible for as long as you can.

In the process of providing that care, and for as long as you’re capable of doing it, you are going to save the Irish taxpayer thousands and thousands of euro.

In return, and if you want a carer’s allowance, we will put you through a means test. So that’s two hurdles to overcome: if you dedicate yourself to caring for someone that we don’t want to care for, and if you have no income to call your own, we’ll give you the princely sum of €220 a week – and 50 cent for yourself.

Until, that is, our parliament voted through the social welfare bill. In passing that piece of legislation the Dáil voted to take €8.50 from every carer in Ireland. The message was simple. We need it, you know. The country is broke.

Never mind the fact that you’ve been saving us thousands and thousands by providing love and care for someone we’d have to look after if you didn’t. We just can’t afford any longer to give you the miserable pittance we used to give you. We’re going to have to take some of it back.

I’ve written here often about people with disabilities. Every time I do, it offends some government minister or other. They accuse me constantly of ignoring the massive strides that have been made, the disability strategy, the legislation (don’t get me started on the legislation), the wonderful changes that have been made over the years. Dignity, that’s what it’s about. Independence. Pride. Those are the things we’ve stood for where people with disabilities are concerned.

I never want to hear that humbug again. €204.30 a week. That’s what the disability allowance is. It’s what some ministers would spend on a good lunch (depending on who’s footing the bill, of course). But the message for people with a disability is clear.

If you can’t work because of a permanent disability, we’re prepared to support your independence and your dignity to the tune of €204.30 a week – that’s €10,827.90 a year. Sorry, that was last year. This year we’re cutting your weekly allowance and we’re not giving you an extra week at Christmas. Why should you get an extra week at Christmas anyway? Remember your Charles Dickens – Tiny Tim never got an extra week at Christmas and he was so disabled he was close to death. So by the time we’ve taken €8.30 a week off you, and the Christmas bonus, we’ll have reduced our support for your dignity to €10,192 a year.

You might have a permanent disability. You might live in constant pain because of it. You may never have seen colours or shapes or the face of your child because of blindness.

YOU may know nothing of Mozart, or even the X Factor, because of deafness. You may struggle to communicate because of an intellectual disability. But we need that €635.90 more than you do.

And by the way, we’re taking back the home adaptation grants on which youdepend. And the dental services. And if you need medication, we’re introducing charges for the first time.

The point about this is that it has never happened before in the history of any parliamentary democracy in the western world.

Margaret Thatcher never did it, Ronald Reagan never did it. In the depths of the American Depression, President Roosevelt did the opposite – he created the New Deal to help people who were poorer, to support them with welfare and to help them back to work.

This is the first time ever that a country has decided that the poor must pay our debts. In all the years of the Celtic Tiger, the gap between rich and poor in Ireland never narrowed.

That’s because when the going was good, all the tax breaks were given to people who had plenty. Dozens of tax breaks, year after year. But now we’re in deep trouble and our best response, uniquely in the world, is to target people who have nothing. Being Irish will never feel the same again

Read more: http://www.examiner.ie/opinion/columnists/fergus-finlay/we-are-the-first-democracy-ever-to-decide-the-poor-must-pay-our-debts-107821.html#ixzz0ZkG m40Kq

[BangorFeen]

The Toolster's take on the budget here (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/1215/1224260710702.html)

[ProfessorPwn]

The Toolster's take on the budget here (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/1215/1224260710702.html)

He spelled out a lot of this on Vincent Browne last night. The ESRI bit in particular is a strange one, though as assistant editor in the IT he should have been fighting to get this stuff front page.

But he makes a good point.

[diar2me]

Rubbish! EVERYONE is contributing. Just look at the breakdown of the figures scaling from €30k - €150k. Massive differences in what is contributed. More left wing nonsense from a fella who pays himself a handsome salary from a childrens "charity".

[ProfessorPwn]

Rubbish! EVERYONE is contributing. Just look at the breakdown of the figures scaling from €30k - €150k. Massive differences in what is contributed. More left wing nonsense from a fella who pays himself a handsome salary from a childrens "charity".

You sound like a very angry person.

I know you fancy yourself as some sort of crusader or something but you might want to check your figures.

[diar2me]

You sound like a very angry person.

I know you fancy yourself as some sort of crusader or something but you might want to check your figures.

Why don't you quote them for me? I do think that someone who names themselves ProfessorPwn is somehow more of a crusader than I don't you think? I know my figures, be interesting to see if you do!

[Lostmeringtopaddypower]

This is nothing new, Lamps.

Two things here:

Firstly, "we" didn't decide - Fianna Fail decided.
There should have been a referendum on NAMA not Lisbon - Lisbon is a piece of piss compared to the long term damage that NAMA may do to Ireland.

Secondly, the phenomenon of privatising profits and socialising catastrophic losses is not just an Irish thing.

Look at all the banks, globally, who were bailed using taxpayers money.

Ireland has indeed changed in the last 10 years, though.

It became all nasty and about jeeps and prada and being property millionaires.

Some weird buzz coming back to Germany from Ireland and finding the Germans friendlier.

Fucked up.

[Murdock]

Rubbish! EVERYONE is contributing. Just look at the breakdown of the figures scaling from €30k - €150k. Massive differences in what is contributed. More left wing nonsense from a fella who pays himself a handsome salary from a childrens "charity".

No, they're not. That's just the public service, you dope. There was not one cent in income tax increases for anyone in the private sector, no matter how loaded they were. Bankers get off scot-free, while blind people took a cut. It's disgusting.

[Mossybanks]

I wonder how much of the €1,381,000 that Barnardos spent on "trading" last year went to Mr. Finlay in the form of salary?

This is the closest one can get by reading their most recent annual accounts to salary payments.

The figure for "the cost of generating charitable income" is separate and is €2,112,000. This is the money they spent on rent, promotion, collection of monies, advertising etc.

The €1,381,000 was spent on salaries and staff costs. There is also a figure of €212,000 for "governance."

They also have a defined benefit pension fund which currently has a liability of €3,506,000. This figure for staff, including Mr. Finlay's, defined pension payments, is taken as a charge against their overall assets of €7,968,000.


So rather than take the hit on their pension funds, they are going to make sure that they still take defined pensions, and pay the difference between the collapse in investment income out of the assets of the Charity.

No business in the private sector would ever do something like that. No one would raid the pension fund in order to cover defined pension liabilities.
Margaret Thatcher never did it, Ronald Reagan never did it. In the depths of the American Depression, President Roosevelt did the opposite – he created the New Deal to help people who were poorer, to support them with welfare and to help them back to work.

But Fergus Finlay is the chief executive of a company which has no problem doing it. It would appear that one can take the man out of the civil service, but one cannot take the civil service out of the man. He can bitch and moan all he likes about things, but when it comes to the crunch, he presides over a situtation where his defined benefit pension will be taken care of out of the assets of a charity for needy children.



Poor Fergus.

[Mossybanks]

No, they're not. That's just the public service, you dope. There was not one cent in income tax increases for anyone in the private sector, no matter how loaded they were. Bankers get off scot-free, while blind people took a cut. It's disgusting.


That's true.

Unless of course you need a car to get to work, in which case you will pay an extra 5c a litre in tax every time you buy petrol or diesel.

Or if you have a pension fund that you are paying into, which is subject to the vagaries of the market, and not a gilt edged protected public service pension, then your tax relief on it will be cut from 41% to 33%.


Or if you have a central heating system that runs on oil, or natural gas, or coal, or peat briquettes, because you will be paying an extra €15 per tonne of co2 emitted in tax from May of next year.


But hey, let's not let the facts get in the way of a good old rant shall we?

[Murdock]

That's true.

Unless of course you need a car to get to work, in which case you will pay an extra 5c a litre in tax every time you buy petrol or diesel.

Or if you have a pension fund that you are paying into, which is subject to the vagaries of the market, and not a gilt edged protected public service pension, then your tax relief on it will be cut from 41% to 33%.


Or if you have a central heating system that runs on oil, or natural gas, or coal, or peat briquettes, because you will be paying an extra €15 per tonne of co2 emitted in tax from May of next year.


But hey, let's not let the facts get in the way of a good old rant shall we?


:lol!:

http://blog.frogbody.com/frogblog/images/extreme_ironing.jpg


The fact is none of those things are INCOME tax.
Pwned.

[ProfessorPwn]

Why don't you quote them for me? I do think that someone who names themselves ProfessorPwn is somehow more of a crusader than I don't you think? I know my figures, be interesting to see if you do!

I did last week.

You remind me of one of those lads I see on Fox news. I believe you are so concerned with fighting for the side of the fence you think you are on that you fail to look at the reality of each situation as it presents itself.

In short, you've been brainwashed.

[ProfessorPwn]

That's true.

Unless of course you need a car to get to work, in which case you will pay an extra 5c a litre in tax every time you buy petrol or diesel.

Or if you have a pension fund that you are paying into, which is subject to the vagaries of the market, and not a gilt edged protected public service pension, then your tax relief on it will be cut from 41% to 33%.


Or if you have a central heating system that runs on oil, or natural gas, or coal, or peat briquettes, because you will be paying an extra €15 per tonne of co2 emitted in tax from May of next year.


But hey, let's not let the facts get in the way of a good old rant shall we?

In fairness to you Mossy, you've got your own angle that you're coming from and fair play to you for playing it. I've been watching more than posting lately and you are a masterful player in that regard. Truly great as an INTERNET playa, possibly the best. I can respect that.

Everyone pays those taxes though. I don't think thats what diar2me meant when he said EVERYONE, as he then quoted his obession(the public service). We both know that.

The cold hard facts of that budget is that the poorer members of Irish society took the brunt of the pain. Would you dispute that?

[pudgee]

In fairness to you Mossy, you've got your own angle that you're coming from and fair play to you for playing it. I've been watching more than posting lately and you are a masterful player in that regard. Truly great as an INTERNET playa, possibly the best. I can respect that.

Everyone pays those taxes though. I don't think thats what diar2me meant when he said EVERYONE, as he then quoted his obession(the public service). We both know that.

The cold hard facts of that budget is that the poorer members of Irish society took the brunt of the pain. Would you dispute that?

Repped.

Also, Mossy, regardless of what Finlay is paid, or who pays it, the argument stands. It's idiotic and cheap to say that someone on a decent wage can't comment on poverty.

Fintan on top form on Today programme this morning (07:34)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_8413000/8413170.stm

[ProfessorPwn]

Repped.

Also, Mossy, regardless of what Finlay is paid, or who pays it, the argument stands.

Its called playing the man. Common deflection tactic.

[Mossybanks]

I have no problem with all of the facts being given an airing. I also feel that those on social welfare were disproportionately hit in the budget.

I just think that when you are reading commentaries from Fergus Finlay and Father Sean Healy of CORI, then it is important to know the whole story.

They have a political angle and are well paid to express it.

I would have much more respect for Paddy O'Brien and people like that.

[Mossybanks]

:lol!:


The fact is none of those things are INCOME tax.

Of course.

How could I forget. The magical pixie juice that enables our cars to run and our heating systems to function is deposited every morning on our doorstep for free by the leprechauns.

And there was me thinking that one had to pay for it out of one's own INCOME.


:lol:

[ProfessorPwn]

I have no problem with all of the facts being given an airing. I also feel that those on social welfare were disproportionately hit in the budget.

I just think that when you are reading commentaries from Fergus Finlay and Father Sean Healy of CORI, then it is important to know the whole story.

They have a political angle and are well paid to express it.

I would have much more respect for Paddy O'Brien and people like that.

Regardless of who is saying what and what angle they are coming from would you agree with me that the poor have taken the brunt of the pain in the budget hearlded by most commentators as the most important we've ever had?

[diar2me]

No, they're not. That's just the public service, you dope. There was not one cent in income tax increases for anyone in the private sector, no matter how loaded they were. Bankers get off scot-free, while blind people took a cut. It's disgusting.

First of all less of the personal remarks, typical personal snipes from someone who obviously has no clue! Comments like bankers get off scott free and blind people take a cut is such dramatic nonsense. We all know bankers should be locked up but can we please lose the socialist dramatic over the top bullshit! It's just hinders a proper debate!

[ProfessorPwn]

First of all less of the personal remarks, typical personal snipes from someone who obviously has no clue! Comments like bankers get off scott free and blind people take a cut is such dramatic nonsense. We all know bankers should be locked up but can we please lose the socialist dramatic over the top bullshit! It's just hinders a proper debate!

:lol!:

You sound crazzzy

[Mossybanks]

Regardless of who is saying what and what angle they are coming from would you agree with me that the poor have taken the brunt of the pain in the budget hearlded by most commentators as the most important we've ever had?

I have already agreed with you. Those on social welfare have taken a disproportionate hit.

But if we can't afford to pay the interest rates on our debt next year because our credit rating is downgraded further like Greece, then where is the money going to come from?

The value of the Irish Stock Exchange has plummeted, the property market has collapsed, where is this magical crock of gold out there waiting to be plundered?

Finlay is just reverting to type, and trying to foment a class struggle between social welfare recipients and low paid public sector workers on the one hand, and private sector workers and the self employed on the other. He is the same as Fintan O'Toole, who speaks about those who "control the media, and set the agenda" as if there is some sort of conspiracy going on within RTE and others.


Income tax receipts from the self employed sector have collapsed as well: people simply aren't making any money. There are some super rich people out there, but they are few and far between.

[ProfessorPwn]

I have already agreed with you. Those on social welfare have taken a disproportionate hit.

But if we can't afford to pay the interest rates on our debt next year because our credit rating is downgraded further like Greece, then where is the money going to come from?

The value of the Irish Stock Exchange has plummeted, the property market has collapsed, where is this magical crock of gold out there waiting to be plundered?

Finlay is just reverting to type, and trying to foment a class struggle between social welfare recipients and low paid public sector workers on the one hand, and private sector workers and the self employed on the other. He is the same as Fintan O'Toole, who speaks about those who "control the media, and set the agenda" as if there is some sort of conspiracy going on within RTE and others.


Income tax receipts from the self employed sector have collapsed as well: people simply aren't making any money. There are some super rich people out there, but they are few and far between.

The class struggle if you could call it that was forumlated by the govt between public and private sector. It worked a treat. In fairness, yourself and a few others ran with it too. It was truly spectacular and millions fell for it, they lumped carers in with principal officers and duped half the country. The thing is, most publuc servants I know, were very willing to take a cut, it was their villification that pissed them off in the end.

But anyhow, my point, and I'm happy you agree with me, is that the poor were disproportionally hit. Those on social welfare and those on the lower levels of public service pay. A good deal of people went unhit. Including myself. I'm not super rich, far from it, but I could have paid a bit more.

[BangorFeen]

First of all less of the personal remarks, typical personal snipes from someone who obviously has no clue! Comments like bankers get off scott free and blind people take a cut is such dramatic nonsense. We all know bankers should be locked up but can we please lose the socialist dramatic over the top bullshit! It's just hinders a proper debate!
So it's over-the-top socialist drama to believe that cutting the pay of a cleaner on (say) €29K p.a. by 5% is flat-out wrong?

It's flat-out socialist drama to believe that this governemtn has looked after in a very gneraous fashion, precisely the special interest groups that brought us to this pass and yet the Public Sector is demonised?

Jesus, if that's the case then call me Ché. I'm a fucking ballerina.

[How bad boy]

I have already agreed with you. Those on social welfare have taken a disproportionate hit.

But if we can't afford to pay the interest rates on our debt next year because our credit rating is downgraded further like Greece, then where is the money going to come from?

The value of the Irish Stock Exchange has plummeted, the property market has collapsed, where is this magical crock of gold out there waiting to be plundered?

Finlay is just reverting to type, and trying to foment a class struggle between social welfare recipients and low paid public sector workers on the one hand, and private sector workers and the self employed on the other. He is the same as Fintan O'Toole, who speaks about those who "control the media, and set the agenda" as if there is some sort of conspiracy going on within RTE and others.


Income tax receipts from the self employed sector have collapsed as well: people simply aren't making any money. There are some super rich people out there, but they are few and far between.The most sensible thing to do, if one wants the stock market and property market to recover in a sustainable fashion, is to throw as much money as you can at the lowest rungs of society.

I've explained this one many ties before on here though.

Reducing welfare spending and the income of the lowest paid public servants isn't just ethically dubious, it's poor economics too.

[Mossybanks]

The class struggle if you could call it that was forumlated by the govt between public and private sector. It worked a treat. In fairness, yourself and a few others ran with it too. It was truly spectacular and millions fell for it, they lumped carers in with principal officers and duped half the country. The thing is, most publuc servants I know, were very willing to take a cut, it was their villification that pissed them off in the end.

But anyhow, my point, and I'm happy you agree with me, is that the poor were disproportionally hit. Those on social welfare and those on the lower levels of public service pay. A good deal of people went unhit. Including myself. I'm not super rich, far from it, but I could have paid a bit more.


I can't say I agree with that 100%. Many people were saying that because public sector workers were in secure jobs and couldn't be laid off, then they needed to take a pay cut.

The private sector has laid off over 200,000 people since the start of the crisis.

The drop in living standards they have taken have been very large.

My parents are both on old age pensions and have said that they would not have minded taking a cut.

[BangorFeen]

I can't say I agree with that 100%. Many people were saying that because public sector workers were in secure jobs and couldn't be laid off, then they needed to take a pay cut.


You see, right there we have a problem. My contract expires in two years' time. I'm still getting a second cut.

[hemlock666]

The poor are being punished to a large extent in comparison to the previous ten years, however seeing as we have the most generous social welfare system possibly in the world, its no surprise the thing is being scaled back. Most countries you get a percentage of your previous wage for a year or two then nothing. Here its possible to get social welfare for years even decades if you play the game right. Its possible to live entirely off the state and that is unsustainable so there will be a lot of changes ahead to bring us in line with the rest of the EU. Thoes who are reliant on state payments are in for a tough time.

[Mossybanks]

You see, right there we have a problem. My contract expires in two years' time. I'm still getting a second cut.

Here is a letter from today's paper:

No welfare cuts for Anglo’s golden circle

Tuesday, December 15, 2009



THE Green party leader John Gormley assures us there was "no other option" but to cut welfare payments in the budget.



There was also "no option" previously but to cancel the Christmas welfare payment. Let us test these assertions. Anglo Irish Bank’s "golden circle" members were granted non-recourse loans totalling €450 million in what appears to have been a share support operation.

The bank later wrote off €300m of these loans when things went belly up at Anglo. Now the taxpayer has taken on this debt since Anglo was nationalised.

Meanwhile, the Christmas welfare payment that the Government claims we can’t afford to pay would cost €240m.

So in Mr Gormley’s world we can’t afford to pay a little extra to pensioners and the poorest in society at Christmas but we can hand over €450m to some of the wealthiest businessmen in Ireland.

But there’s no need to worry because Seán Fitzpatrick and the golden circle have already received their Christmas bonus a long time ago.

I think Santa should get Mr Gormley a pad and pen for Christmas. Maybe then he can join up the dots like the rest of us to get the true picture of the choices the Government has made.

Roughan MacNamara
Rockford Park
Blackrock
Co Dublin

[diar2me]

So it's over-the-top socialist drama to believe that cutting the pay of a cleaner on (say) €29K p.a. by 5% is flat-out wrong?

It's flat-out socialist drama to believe that this governemtn has looked after in a very gneraous fashion, precisely the special interest groups that brought us to this pass and yet the Public Sector is demonised?

Jesus, if that's the case then call me Ché. I'm a fucking ballerina.

I agree with some of what your saying. It's just a sense of perspective that is needed, that's all I mean. Saying stuff like robbing the blind and giving greedy bankers massive wage cheques is just extreme like. Have to say all bullshit aside heard an interview on Eamonn Keane today with a woman whose house is getting repossessed and she has a special needs child and both her and her husband are out of work. What I concluded is that The Regulator should be fucking ashamed of themselves. When I talk about reform of public services I am accused of being some right wind facist lunatic. People fail to see the bigger picture of what I am trying to say. I would as a taxpayer have no problem paying out for services THAT WORK. But listening to that womans story today showed up what a disgrace our Financial Regulator is and how there is no "public service" to help her, yet we have an overstaffed HSE and plenty quangos that unions won't leave us touch. Now am I being a capitalist lunatic when I ask - should we not take the overcrowded civil service quangos and put them to better use elsewhere?

[ManielMan]

LMAO.
The poor are paying.

LRN2TAXATION Fergus Fathead.

Try to work out how much PRSI 'the poor' contribute over their life time.
HINT: Less than 1 years worth in an entire career.

Last time I checked, the marginal tax rate was 56% on high income earners.

Complete horsesh1t

[ProfessorPwn]

LMAO.
The poor are paying.

LRN2TAXATION Fergus Fathead.

Try to work out how much PRSI 'the poor' contribute over their life time.
HINT: Less than 1 years worth in an entire career.

Last time I checked, the marginal tax rate was 56% on high income earners.

Complete horsesh1t

U R Gr8

lolz

[POL]

Rubbish! EVERYONE is contributing. Just look at the breakdown of the figures scaling from €30k - €150k. Massive differences in what is contributed. More left wing nonsense from a fella who pays himself a handsome salary from a childrens "charity".

http://www.threadbombing.co m/data/media/49/dawson_crying.gif

[Rebel G]

No, they're not. That's just the public service, you dope. There was not one cent in income tax increases for anyone in the private sector, no matter how loaded they were. Bankers get off scot-free, while blind people took a cut. It's disgusting.

First of all i find it quite disturbing when i read the article of the harsh reality that this budget has brought to us. Its terrible for anyone who really cant afford it. Social Welfare cuts are cruel and a hammer blow to the less fortunate amongst us. But surely our social welfare payements are still a lot higher than other countrys.

Secondly Murdock. you are a blind idiot if you think the private sector are getting away scott free and laughing at the public sector. The majority of us in the private sector have been dealt cruel cuts over the last 2 years by our employers. not once or twice, but a lot more times in some cases. And we are told we can walk from our jobs if we dont like it. We dont have the option to strike as it will shut down our companies. Quite simply put, if our employer gets in to difficulty we have a pay cut, if things dont improve we shut and get 2 weeks redundancy for years of loyal service. The company becomes no more. If your (public service) employer gets in to trouble and cant afford your wages you expect the private sector to face more taxes and protect your jobs. Which in a lot of cases need reform. The truth is everyone is paying for this. Its just our pay cuts dont get the media spotlight or strike threats that yours does. your employer will never just shut up shop and cease trading. So get off your bloody high horse and face reality. Im facing no christmas bonus this year as I have had to put it in to my pension to protect it. Your pension is nice and safe i bet. Its idiots like you that widen the division and crap that exists between public and private. Get a life. Wake up. And help steer this country out of the doldrems. A general election is coming up where we can get our own back on this disease ridden government!

[ProfessorPwn]

First of all i find it quite disturbing when i read the article of the harsh reality that this budget has brought to us. Its terrible for anyone who really cant afford it. Social Welfare cuts are cruel and a hammer blow to the less fortunate amongst us. But surely our social welfare payements are still a lot higher than other countrys.

Secondly Murdock. you are a blind idiot if you think the private sector are getting away scott free and laughing at the public sector. The majority of us in the private sector have been dealt cruel cuts over the last 2 years by our employers. not once or twice, but a lot more times in some cases. And we are told we can walk from our jobs if we dont like it. We dont have the option to strike as it will shut down our companies. Quite simply put, if our employer gets in to difficulty we have a pay cut, if things dont improve we shut and get 2 weeks redundancy for years of loyal service. The company becomes no more. If your (public service) employer gets in to trouble and cant afford your wages you expect the private sector to face more taxes and protect your jobs. Which in a lot of cases need reform. The truth is everyone is paying for this. Its just our pay cuts dont get the media spotlight or strike threats that yours does. your employer will never just shut up shop and cease trading. So get off your bloody high horse and face reality. Im facing no christmas bonus this year as I have had to put it in to my pension to protect it. Your pension is nice and safe i bet. Its idiots like you that widen the division and crap that exists between public and private. Get a life. Wake up. And help steer this country out of the doldrems. A general election is coming up where we can get our own back on this disease ridden government!

You should be thankful you have a job

[Rebel G]

For the record here are the uk carers rates

Exceptional rate £115.00
Intermediate rate £86.25
Normal maximum rate £57.50
Part-time rate £28.75

[Rebel G]

You should be thankful you have a job

Exactly. And so should every member of the public service. Im thankful every day i have a job. and i dont mind taking cuts as long as they are fair and necessary. But the whinging public service expect everyone else but them to be hit. you really dont read very well do you? Or are you another public servant blinded by your own self importance?

[ProfessorPwn]

Exactly. And so should every member of the public service. Im thankful every day i have a job. and i dont mind taking cuts as long as they are fair and necessary. But the whinging public service expect everyone else but them to be hit. you really dont read very well do you? Or are you another public servant blinded by your own self importance?

Hehe.

If you say you love me madly I'll gladly, be there
Like a puppet on a string

[ANVIL]

Kevin Myers in top form once again in the Indo.

There is a small test that I want you to apply to any aspect of Irish life. It is called, Try Explaining It To A German. For example, the Government recently announced -- as, for the 15th straight winter, half the country vanished under a midwinter flood -- that it is only now inviting tenders for a feasibility study into the merits of a national flood warning system. Try explaining that to Wilhelm, or why nothing will ever come of the feasibility study.

That's just a seasonal example. You can invite the same test for any aspect of Irish life. Take the bank regulator Patrick Neary, who was found not to have been doing his job for a decade, while Sean FitzPatrick hid scores of millions a year from Anglo Irish Bank. He was allowed to take early retirement, with a tax-free golden handshake worth about €400,000 and a pension of €140,000. Go on: explain that to Friederich. Then explain both the Anglo Irish Bank farce to Ludovic, and why no one went to jail because of it.

Or take Rody Molloy in Fas who, after massive abuse of his position, was also allowed to take early retirement, with a golden handshake, plus full pension. Explain that to Fritz. Or consider the retired directors general from the civil service whose pensions are now worth more than their salaries when they were working, but were not subject to any of the income reductions being imposed on junior civil servants, whose incomes are down by some 15pc in a year and who are now spiralling towards ruin. Go on. Explain that to Sigmund.

And then there's the M50 orbital road around Dublin, which crosses over the Liffey valley. The State decided to build the motorway on either side of the valley, but handed the construction of the connecting bridge, with toll rights, to a private company, the National Toll Roads. In addition to enabling NTR to make hundreds of millions from an entirely captive driving community, the actual process of collecting tolls was so inefficient that it caused huge traffic jams. No, Heinrich, not for a couple of hours, but for a decade and a half. After years and years of enormous profits and economically ruinous delays on this government-created monopoly, the Government finally ordered a compulsory buy-out for €600m. This had "decimated" the NTR business, lamented the company's chairman Tom Roche at a business breakfast last week.

Explain to Heidi why he was not instantly lynched. Then tell her that the State simultaneously built a motorway network without a single service station, or toilet, or restaurant or rest area. And then explain why to her. Go on. Do it.

Item: 600,000 people moved to Ireland in 15 years, but Dail Eireann never once discussed immigration. Tell Frieda that. Item: a licence fee is compulsorily extracted from all television owners, which is used then to pay state broadcasters such as Pat Kenny and Marian Finucane far more than they could ever get from a commercial rival. Explain that to Rudi.

Item: Dublin council has ruled that all place names in the capital must now be spelt in Irish only, with Irish spelling, in a city in which almost no one regularly converses in the language. Explain that to Ulrich. Moreover, Irish is a compulsory and universal subject at school, rather like English is in Germany, but almost no one speaks the language across the entire country. Explain that to Hannah.

The Republic was the operational base for the IRA for 26 years during a war which killed nearly 4,000 people. Meanwhile IRA leaders down south slept in their own homes. Have you got that, Manfred? Then the IRA decided to end the war, and to destroy its guns: the only ever undefeated army that has ever done this. Have you understood why, Friederich? And then, Karen, no one ever asks the IRA leaders, what in the name of God the war was about.

Oh yes, and the Provisional IRA responsible was started by Charles Haughey, the most corrupt politician in Irish history, who went on to be the country's leader, even as he secretly took millions from businessmen, and who later lied about this before a government tribunal.

Then Haughey died, and he was given a state funeral. Go on. Explain that to Hermann.

Ireland has the most expensive electricity in Europe. One reason is the Electricity Supply Board is actually compelled by the Government to burn huge amounts of ecologically irreplaceable but laughably inefficient turf. As Ireland preaches environmentalism in Copenhagen, explain that to Joachim.

And then there's Beverley Flynn, Ray Burke, Michael Lowry: explain them to Dieter. Explain NAMA, Ansbacher, Quarryvale and Hepatitis C. Explain the Ryan report, the Murphy report, and the voting-machines scandal, so that Boris can understand.

And then, when you've done that, explain it all to me.

kmyers@independent.i e

[Rebel G]

Hehe.

If you say you love me madly I'll gladly, be there
Like a puppet on a string

Just another gobshite who thinks the idea of a debate is copy and paste!!!!

[diar2me]

Exactly. And so should every member of the public service. Im thankful every day i have a job. and i dont mind taking cuts as long as they are fair and necessary. But the whinging public service expect everyone else but them to be hit. you really dont read very well do you? Or are you another public servant blinded by your own self importance?

Ah we are all right wing capitalist nutjobs!!!! :rolleyes: Couldn't agree with you more. But it's realism that the public sector are devoid of to be honest. Insulated little world is what they live in!

[BangorFeen]

Kevin Myers in top form once again in the Indo.

There is a small test that I want you to apply to any aspect of Irish life. It is called, Try Explaining It To A German. For example, the Government recently announced -- as, for the 15th straight winter, half the country vanished under a midwinter flood -- that it is only now inviting tenders for a feasibility study into the merits of a national flood warning system. Try explaining that to Wilhelm, or why nothing will ever come of the feasibility study.

That's just a seasonal example. You can invite the same test for any aspect of Irish life. Take the bank regulator Patrick Neary, who was found not to have been doing his job for a decade, while Sean FitzPatrick hid scores of millions a year from Anglo Irish Bank. He was allowed to take early retirement, with a tax-free golden handshake worth about €400,000 and a pension of €140,000. Go on: explain that to Friederich. Then explain both the Anglo Irish Bank farce to Ludovic, and why no one went to jail because of it.

Or take Rody Molloy in Fas who, after massive abuse of his position, was also allowed to take early retirement, with a golden handshake, plus full pension. Explain that to Fritz. Or consider the retired directors general from the civil service whose pensions are now worth more than their salaries when they were working, but were not subject to any of the income reductions being imposed on junior civil servants, whose incomes are down by some 15pc in a year and who are now spiralling towards ruin. Go on. Explain that to Sigmund.

And then there's the M50 orbital road around Dublin, which crosses over the Liffey valley. The State decided to build the motorway on either side of the valley, but handed the construction of the connecting bridge, with toll rights, to a private company, the National Toll Roads. In addition to enabling NTR to make hundreds of millions from an entirely captive driving community, the actual process of collecting tolls was so inefficient that it caused huge traffic jams. No, Heinrich, not for a couple of hours, but for a decade and a half. After years and years of enormous profits and economically ruinous delays on this government-created monopoly, the Government finally ordered a compulsory buy-out for €600m. This had "decimated" the NTR business, lamented the company's chairman Tom Roche at a business breakfast last week.

Explain to Heidi why he was not instantly lynched. Then tell her that the State simultaneously built a motorway network without a single service station, or toilet, or restaurant or rest area. And then explain why to her. Go on. Do it.

Item: 600,000 people moved to Ireland in 15 years, but Dail Eireann never once discussed immigration. Tell Frieda that. Item: a licence fee is compulsorily extracted from all television owners, which is used then to pay state broadcasters such as Pat Kenny and Marian Finucane far more than they could ever get from a commercial rival. Explain that to Rudi.

Item: Dublin council has ruled that all place names in the capital must now be spelt in Irish only, with Irish spelling, in a city in which almost no one regularly converses in the language. Explain that to Ulrich. Moreover, Irish is a compulsory and universal subject at school, rather like English is in Germany, but almost no one speaks the language across the entire country. Explain that to Hannah.

The Republic was the operational base for the IRA for 26 years during a war which killed nearly 4,000 people. Meanwhile IRA leaders down south slept in their own homes. Have you got that, Manfred? Then the IRA decided to end the war, and to destroy its guns: the only ever undefeated army that has ever done this. Have you understood why, Friederich? And then, Karen, no one ever asks the IRA leaders, what in the name of God the war was about.

Oh yes, and the Provisional IRA responsible was started by Charles Haughey, the most corrupt politician in Irish history, who went on to be the country's leader, even as he secretly took millions from businessmen, and who later lied about this before a government tribunal.

Then Haughey died, and he was given a state funeral. Go on. Explain that to Hermann.

Ireland has the most expensive electricity in Europe. One reason is the Electricity Supply Board is actually compelled by the Government to burn huge amounts of ecologically irreplaceable but laughably inefficient turf. As Ireland preaches environmentalism in Copenhagen, explain that to Joachim.

And then there's Beverley Flynn, Ray Burke, Michael Lowry: explain them to Dieter. Explain NAMA, Ansbacher, Quarryvale and Hepatitis C. Explain the Ryan report, the Murphy report, and the voting-machines scandal, so that Boris can understand.

And then, when you've done that, explain it all to me.

kmyers@independent.i e
Posting a Kevin Myers article in support of your cause is like invoking Godwin's Law. Congratulations.

[Haro]

No, they're not. That's just the public service, you dope. There was not one cent in income tax increases for anyone in the private sector, no matter how loaded they were. Bankers get off scot-free, while blind people took a cut. It's disgusting.

This sums it up, IMO. I'm tired of all these THE BUDGET WASN'T SO BAD eejits.

[Langer Dan]

Posting a Kevin Myers article in support of your cause is like invoking Godwin's Law. Congratulations.

Repped!

Thats one hell of a takedown.:lol!:

[Haro]

The threads on boards.ie about this are shameful. I wasn't expecting it, but at least one or two PROCers have their heads screwn on right.

[ManielMan]

The threads on boards.ie about this are shameful. I wasn't expecting it, but at least one or two PROCers have their heads screwn on right.

Why are they shameful?
Because they are grounded in reality?
Because people have to produce evidence to back up their claims?
Because if you speak nonsense, people will call you on it?

That's not shameful, that's called debate.

[ManielMan]

This sums it up, IMO. I'm tired of all these THE BUDGET WASN'T SO BAD eejits.

Do you know what deflation is?
Do you know what happens when deflation is at 6.5% and you have a cut of 5%?

[ManielMan]

The threads on boards.ie about this are shameful. I wasn't expecting it, but at least one or two PROCers have their heads screwn on right.

If you want to see shameful, have a read off this:

http://www.sligoweekender.i e/news/story/?trs=mhsngbmhkf&cat=news

A PROPOSED "shop North" protest by public sector workers in reaction to pay cuts imposed in last week’s Budget is to go ahead despite being branded as "irresponsible" by a Sligo retailers group.

Trade union SIPTU is organising a bus to Enniskillen this week in a "you hurt us we will hurt you" response to the pay reductions imposed by Finance Minister Brian Lenihan.

Sligo SIPTU organiser John McCarrick said last Thursday that union members will go to Enniskillen to shop and will post their receipts from their purchases in Northern Ireland to the Minister for Finance to express their anger over the way in which their pay had been cut.

He said Mr Lenihan’s cuts "would backfire on him" as more public sector workers would now shop in the North in protest.

However, McCarrick’s comments provoked an angry reaction from the recently formed Fair Dealers campaign, which has been trying to encourage people to shop in Sligo rather than going across the border.

Phelim O’Neill, founder of the campaign, said that he was shocked that a trade union representative would condone such a move. He said he found Mr McCarrick’s call "ill-advised, poorly thought-out and irresponsible".

[Haro]

Why are they shameful?
Because they are grounded in reality?
Because people have to produce evidence to back up their claims?
Because if you speak nonsense, people will call you on it?

That's not shameful, that's called debate.

It's not called debate when people are just looking at an excuse to take shots at people in the public sector/on welfare.

Also Union officials don't represent the whole public sector.

Do you know what happens when deflation is at 6.5% and you have a cut of 5%?

Even if the cost of goods on average has dropped by 6.5%(an awful lot of things aren't near coming down) the fact is that many people are crippled by debt so effectively they just don't have as much money as they had.

[Murdock]

First of all i find it quite disturbing when i read the article of the harsh reality that this budget has brought to us. Its terrible for anyone who really cant afford it. Social Welfare cuts are cruel and a hammer blow to the less fortunate amongst us. But surely our social welfare payements are still a lot higher than other countrys.

Secondly Murdock. you are a blind idiot if you think the private sector are getting away scott free and laughing at the public sector.
Blah blah blah

No, you are the blind idiot, seeing as you can't seem to read my fecking post.


This sums it up, IMO. I'm tired of all these THE BUDGET WASN'T SO BAD eejits.

The 'I'm alright, Jack' brigade didn't leave with the Celtic Tiger unfortunately.

[Dorcha]

The poor are being punished to a large extent in comparison to the previous ten years, however seeing as we have the most generous social welfare system possibly in the world, its no surprise the thing is being scaled back.

That I know of, the British, Australian and Swedish welfare systems are are far better than ours. What is your solution? Let them starve, when you don't need them any more, so that they won't be a drain on the country. Going on quotes from IBEC and the government, that seems to be their wish. To them, human beings are just an irritant who, once they have no jobs, have no rights. Money and figures are all that matters. How many people on here would admit to believing this?

[diar2me]

That I know of, the British, Australian and Swedish welfare systems are are far better than ours. What is your solution? Let them starve, when you don't need them any more, so that they won't be a drain on the country. Going on quotes from IBEC and the government, that seems to be their wish. To them, human beings are just an irritant who, once they have no jobs, have no rights. Money and figures are all that matters. How many people on here would admit to believing this?

Simply put, you are very very very wrong! Fact!

[Haro]

The British System isn't(it's awful actually), but the Swedish system is, same for the other Scandanavian countries. Funny how Sweden has more welfare yet you don't get the vicious shits moaning you do here about how disabled people are stealing their money.

[diar2me]

The British System isn't(it's awful actually), but the Swedish system is, same for the other Scandanavian countries. Funny how Sweden has more welfare yet you don't get the vicious shits moaning you do here about how disabled people are stealing their money.

What are you on about? :confused: