Civil War Politics

[johnmcork]

I'm tired of people talking about 'Civil War Politics' like we actually have politics in ireland.
As far as i'm concerned we've had one party rule for 80% of the history of the state with the odd half-arsed coalition with labour or with a mickey-mouse party that implodes after it taints itself with the fianna fail virus.

In short, Fianna Fail take their excesses to the limit for a decade or two. We get a year and a half or two years of an alternative without time to achieve anything and then its business as usual.
Fine Gael are pretty much token opposition and Fianna Fail are always in power, so....
why the fuck do people talk about civil war politics and ignore blatant one party rule by the gangsters that run ireland?
civil war politics should suggest the side that won would be in power for more than three consecutive years once in the last 40 years. shouldn't it?

[jd26]

One of the great misnomers in Irish politics is that Fianna Fail were more popular than Fine Gael because of the events of the civil war.

In fact, as well as winning the civil war, Cumann na nGaedhael also represented the majority of Irish opinion.

What actually brought Fianna Fail to their position of prominence was that Cumann na nGaedhael were in power during the Great Depression and in an attempt to balance the government books they slashed the pension. They never recovered from it.

Then the merger to form Fine Gael brought the association with O'Duffy, which also became a convenient stick with which to beat them.

Having any individual party in power for too long in a democracy is bad news, regardless of their ideology. It starts attracting in people who want to abuse power more than anything else. Ireland isn't unique in seeing this phenomenon. The Liberal Democrats in Japan and the PRI in Mexico would very closely mirror them as dominant parties. There's also signs that the ANC in South Africa is going that way.

[johnmcork]

DeV managed to get away with the economic war and general meltdown in the 30's. Between that and the 80's this current mess is the third time FF have bankrupted the country.

People say all the political parties in ireland are the same; that's because it's always the same party in power.

[Corcaigh32]

Wow lads, civil war politics is exactly what it says on the tin. Not to the voter. To the respective party members. The most natural government in this country is an FF-FG coalition, policy wise, particularly since the Good Friday Agreement and especially since the St Andrew's Agreement there is practically no difference between the 2 parties. FG will claim to be whiter than white, but that Daz-ness also precludes them from being able to make the right decisions (sometimes tough decisions) at the right times. FF claim(ed) to be all things to all people but like (New) Labour in Britain have been in power in since 87 effectively - (the rainbow was a joke) - and have lost all touch with the "plain people".

However, to the branch member or cumann member, coalition or amalgamation is unspeakable precisely because of the civil war. Now to be fair when you look at some of the utterances of Brian Hayes or Gay Mitchell, you can see how some of them wear the West Brit tag very easily but then when you look at people like Varadkar or Shatter you see public representatives of calibre, intelligence and ability. Similarly it is easy to point the finger at the usual suspects in FF and paint them all with the "crooks" brush, Cowen isn't one of them and has the makings (if he learned to be more personable and wasn't hamstrung by the most unfavourable set of circumstances) of one of the country's finest Taoisigh.

What have we got instead? Well overall majorities although close in the last couple of elections are pretty much a thing of the past. So FF up to now will get middle to late 70's and need a few independents or minor parties for a government or FG will go in with Labour. Now, FF can't play the green flag anymore because since the St Andrew's agreement - our northern brethern are pretty much even more on their own now than we left them all those years ago. So elections are based essentially on 26 county policies and therefore there is no difference between FG and FF. FG with Labour have the obvious drawback. They can't implement what would be natural FG policy while in government with Labour because Labour won't ever let them. So a naturally more fiscally responsible FG will have to give finance to Labour and Gilmore wouldn't cut public sector pay and so it goes on.

So in essence what we really need is a move from civil war politics - which essentially has happened in the minds of the voters but not in the minds of the party members. Until FF and FG realise in themselves that to implement their policies and be in government they need to do the obvious thing and go in to government together - then the country will always have what we have always had - not civil war politics but FF and FF light.

[bosco]

There's a fierce dose of common sense in this thread so far, fair play.

[poulgorm]

After 10 years in power, Fianna Fáil have totally run out of ideas. The Tories, after 10 years under Thatcher, lost their way. Ditto for the current UK Labour party, after 10 years in charge.

The USA have a better system, I think: a President has a maximum of 8 years in charge (with a mid-term review).

Also, we do not have the opportunity of directly choosing who our Taoiseach should be: we can only decide between the local party hacks. This, I think, is a serious flaw in our system.

The only national leader that we can vote for directly is the President: we have chosen very well (at least the current and previous one). They have provided leadership (or at least as much as their role allows).

We really could shake up the current political system, if we could all vote to decide who will be the next Taoiseach.

[jams]

Wow lads, civil war politics is exactly what it says on the tin. Not to the voter. To the respective party members. The most natural government in this country is an FF-FG coalition, policy wise, particularly since the Good Friday Agreement and especially since the St Andrew's Agreement there is practically no difference between the 2 parties. FG will claim to be whiter than white, but that Daz-ness also precludes them from being able to make the right decisions (sometimes tough decisions) at the right times. FF claim(ed) to be all things to all people but like (New) Labour in Britain have been in power in since 87 effectively - (the rainbow was a joke) - and have lost all touch with the "plain people".

However, to the branch member or cumann member, coalition or amalgamation is unspeakable precisely because of the civil war. Now to be fair when you look at some of the utterances of Brian Hayes or Gay Mitchell, you can see how some of them wear the West Brit tag very easily but then when you look at people like Varadkar or Shatter you see public representatives of calibre, intelligence and ability. Similarly it is easy to point the finger at the usual suspects in FF and paint them all with the "crooks" brush, Cowen isn't one of them and has the makings (if he learned to be more personable and wasn't hamstrung by the most unfavourable set of circumstances) of one of the country's finest Taoisigh.

What have we got instead? Well overall majorities although close in the last couple of elections are pretty much a thing of the past. So FF up to now will get middle to late 70's and need a few independents or minor parties for a government or FG will go in with Labour. Now, FF can't play the green flag anymore because since the St Andrew's agreement - our northern brethern are pretty much even more on their own now than we left them all those years ago. So elections are based essentially on 26 county policies and therefore there is no difference between FG and FF. FG with Labour have the obvious drawback. They can't implement what would be natural FG policy while in government with Labour because Labour won't ever let them. So a naturally more fiscally responsible FG will have to give finance to Labour and Gilmore wouldn't cut public sector pay and so it goes on.

So in essence what we really need is a move from civil war politics - which essentially has happened in the minds of the voters but not in the minds of the party members. Until FF and FG realise in themselves that to implement their policies and be in government they need to do the obvious thing and go in to government together - then the country will always have what we have always had - not civil war politics but FF and FF light.




seriously?

I would say they were the best government we ever had.
The only policies they had that might be questioned was on Norn Iron.

[johnmcork]

Wow lads, civil war politics is exactly what it says on the tin. Not to the voter. To the respective party members. The most natural government in this country is an FF-FG coalition, policy wise, particularly since the Good Friday Agreement and especially since the St Andrew's Agreement there is practically no difference between the 2 parties. FG will claim to be whiter than white, but that Daz-ness also precludes them from being able to make the right decisions (sometimes tough decisions) at the right times.


That is typical Fianna Fail crooked hackery talk. Fianna Fail only make decisions to win elections



FF claim(ed) to be all things to all people but like (New) Labour in Britain have been in power in since 87 effectively - (the rainbow was a joke) - and have lost all touch with the "plain people".

You mean the first government to balance the exchequer, reduce unemployment by a third and introduce divorce?
Not a bad two and a half years i'd say
However, to the branch member or cumann member, coalition or amalgamation is unspeakable precisely because of the civil war. Now to be fair when you look at some of the utterances of Brian Hayes or Gay Mitchell, you can see how some of them wear the West Brit tag very easily but then when you look at people like Varadkar or Shatter you see public representatives of calibre, intelligence and ability.

That is a caustic and clearly bigoted remark. You are clearly Fianna Fail.


Similarly it is easy to point the finger at the usual suspects in FF and paint them all with the "crooks" brush, Cowen isn't one of them and has the makings (if he learned to be more personable and wasn't hamstrung by the most unfavourable set of circumstances) of one of the country's finest Taoisigh.

Is that you Bertie???????

What have we got instead? Well overall majorities although close in the last couple of elections are pretty much a thing of the past. So FF up to now will get middle to late 70's and need a few independents or minor parties for a government or FG will go in with Labour. Now, FF can't play the green flag anymore because since the St Andrew's agreement - our northern brethern are pretty much even more on their own now than we left them all those years ago. So elections are based essentially on 26 county policies and therefore there is no difference between FG and FF. FG with Labour have the obvious drawback. They can't implement what would be natural FG policy while in government with Labour because Labour won't ever let them. So a naturally more fiscally responsible FG will have to give finance to Labour and Gilmore wouldn't cut public sector pay and so it goes on.

Is it CJ talking from the grave?

So in essence what we really need is a move from civil war politics - which essentially has happened in the minds of the voters but not in the minds of the party members. Until FF and FG realise in themselves that to implement their policies and be in government they need to do the obvious thing and go in to government together - then the country will always have what we have always had - not civil war politics but FF and FF light.

Fianna Fail = a populist party in the mode of Berlesconi
Fine Gael = Social Democrats

I've made my choice

[Corcaigh32]

Ah John - you were and are clearly FG before you even read my post. No one else would take the term "west brit" as automatically caustic and bigoted. In the presumption that I am right, as an FG voter, you can't honestly tell me that your own personal politics and the policies that FG espouse and the country those policies would see envisioned are ever implemented when you are in government in Labour?

The simple point I was making was that FF member and FG members have an awful lot more in common than they do with any other parties with the very obvious exception which you have very clearly proved by your response to my post above. Policy-wise, FF and FG are social conservatives, economically centrist to right and for everything else they follow whichever way the wind is blowing and that's the fact. The CJ, Bertie thing is just the sour grapes and crook talk which is borne of the divide of the civil war, " we are not them" mentality that has consumed the vast majority of FG members and public reps for ages now. Wouldn't it be refreshing if Varadkar, Coveney, Shatter, even a rejuvenated Dukes reinvented the Tallaght strategy and gave the country a real alternative at the next election?

FF-FG or Labour, Soc, Greens, SF, Independents etc i.e. the kind of divide most democracies have a Left-Right divide as opposed to whose great grand-daddy shot whose great grand-daddy in the Four Courts all those years ago?????

Incidentally, yea I used to be an FF member and officer - now I tend to vote SF more often than not or Green. FF has turned its back on the plain people and lost its way as the party that had the nation's (in a 32 county sense) interest at heart and I don't mean the "crooks". I mean their ability to govern - the lack of leadership, of communication, of purpose and direction in what has been the most trying 18-24 months in the nation's history for over 40 years - clearly illustrates that being in power for essentially 22 years consecutively has had a serious impact.

[johnmcork]

Ah John - you were and are clearly FG before you even read my post. No one else would take the term "west brit" as automatically caustic and bigoted. In the presumption that I am right, as an FG voter, you can't honestly tell me that your own personal politics and the policies that FG espouse and the country those policies would see envisioned are ever implemented when you are in government in Labour?

The simple point I was making was that FF member and FG members have an awful lot more in common than they do with any other parties with the very obvious exception which you have very clearly proved by your response to my post above. Policy-wise, FF and FG are social conservatives, economically centrist to right and for everything else they follow whichever way the wind is blowing and that's the fact. The CJ, Bertie thing is just the sour grapes and crook talk which is borne of the divide of the civil war, " we are not them" mentality that has consumed the vast majority of FG members and public reps for ages now. Wouldn't it be refreshing if Varadkar, Coveney, Shatter, even a rejuvenated Dukes reinvented the Tallaght strategy and gave the country a real alternative at the next election?

FF-FG or Labour, Soc, Greens, SF, Independents etc i.e. the kind of divide most democracies have a Left-Right divide as opposed to whose great grand-daddy shot whose great grand-daddy in the Four Courts all those years ago?????

Incidentally, yea I used to be an FF member and officer - now I tend to vote SF more often than not or Green. FF has turned its back on the plain people and lost its way as the party that had the nation's (in a 32 county sense) interest at heart and I don't mean the "crooks". I mean their ability to govern - the lack of leadership, of communication, of purpose and direction in what has been the most trying 18-24 months in the nation's history for over 40 years - clearly illustrates that being in power for essentially 22 years consecutively has had a serious impact.

So you remain completely misguided?

i'll challenge the rest of your points when i get some time

[johnmcork]

Ah John - you were and are clearly FG before you even read my post. No one else would take the term "west brit" as automatically caustic and bigoted.

How could you interpret the words 'west brit' in any other way


In the presumption that I am right, as an FG voter, you can't honestly tell me that your own personal politics and the policies that FG espouse and the country those policies would see envisioned are ever implemented when you are in government in Labour?

Personally, i see FG/Labour as a much more natural coalition than FG/FF. we have to change single party dominance of this nation and the historic one party rule of FF. That was the whole point of this thread

The simple point I was making was that FF member and FG members have an awful lot more in common than they do with any other parties with the very obvious exception which you have very clearly proved by your response to my post above. Policy-wise, FF and FG are social conservatives, economically centrist to right and for everything else they follow whichever way the wind is blowing and that's the fact.

I disagree, as i said above FF are a populist party. FG are social democrats. THIS IS A FACT. FG are much more strategically minded in the interest of the country. The tallaght strategy is ample evidence of this. How do you consider the party that introduced divorce and liberalised contraception as socially conservative? This is a common misconception

The CJ, Bertie thing is just the sour grapes and crook talk which is borne of the divide of the civil war, " we are not them" mentality that has consumed the vast majority of FG members and public reps for ages now. Wouldn't it be refreshing if Varadkar, Coveney, Shatter, even a rejuvenated Dukes reinvented the Tallaght strategy and gave the country a real alternative at the next election?

I've been arguing that the fact that FG 'are not them' is precisely the reason that people should vote for them. I consider FG as untested by the irish electorate. 2 and a half or three years in power in the last 30? they're an untapped resource imo

FF-FG or Labour, Soc, Greens, SF, Independents etc i.e. the kind of divide most democracies have a Left-Right divide as opposed to whose great grand-daddy shot whose great grand-daddy in the Four Courts all those years ago?????

I agree to an extent. Let's have parties with a philosophy rather than FF's catch-all populist rhetoric and misdirection

Incidentally, yea I used to be an FF member and officer - now I tend to vote SF more often than not or Green.

I suspect that Rossport may be an interest of yours. if that is the case then i afree that FG have dropped the ball here and Enda Kenny should be supporting his constituents. However it was FF that initiated that mess

FF has turned its back on the plain people and lost its way as the party that had the nation's (in a 32 county sense) interest at heart and I don't mean the "crooks". I mean their ability to govern - the lack of leadership, of communication, of purpose and direction in what has been the most trying 18-24 months in the nation's history for over 40 years - clearly illustrates that being in power for essentially 22 years consecutively has had a serious impact.

I disagree; they're that way since haughy. bertie was haughy in an anorak; i said in 97 and i'm saying it now.

incidentially; i have also voted labour and greens and look where that got me; FF coalitions. i liked rabbitte more than gilmore and the greens are committing a slow but sure political suicide

[johnmcork]

After 10 years in power, Fianna Fáil have totally run out of ideas. The Tories, after 10 years under Thatcher, lost their way. Ditto for the current UK Labour party, after 10 years in charge.

The USA have a better system, I think: a President has a maximum of 8 years in charge (with a mid-term review).

Also, we do not have the opportunity of directly choosing who our Taoiseach should be: we can only decide between the local party hacks. This, I think, is a serious flaw in our system.

The only national leader that we can vote for directly is the President: we have chosen very well (at least the current and previous one). They have provided leadership (or at least as much as their role allows).

We really could shake up the current political system, if we could all vote to decide who will be the next Taoiseach.

That's a good idea.
maybe we should move toward the french model with a presidential boss and a prime-minister (taoiseach for us) that oversees legislation?

[Corcaigh32]

Well John we were never likely to agree which is unfortunate. The reason that FF and/or FG have been in power since the foundation of the state and over 60% of the population have consistently voted for them is because over 60% of the population are social conservatives and with the exception of the now non-existent national question and the inherited "who shot whose great grand-daddy" - think exactly the same way when it comes to the ballot box. The non-party aligned people i.e. Seán Soap voter, at a minimum of 60% of the electorate have consistently voted for FF and FG on what have been essentially the same policy platforms.

Now, if you genuinely see Labour as your natural policy partners that's fair enough. I would ask how you square Richard Bruton and Leo Varadkar both advocating a cut in public sector pay and Eamonn Gilmore quite flatly ruling it out. Just as an example. I

As for Rossport, I am utterly in favour of the Rossport development. I have argued this case in the relevant thread here on the PROC at length. This country has its own North Sea type reserves off the Porcupine Basin but due to the depths involved has to make the kind of deals it has in order to put the initial infrastructure in place to pull it out of the ground. The short-sightedness of the protests is n-i-m-b-y-ism at its worst.

As for the west brit thing - FG make a huge deal out of Béal na Bláth and the party that founded the State etc. How any public representative on this island can advocate either a) rejoining the commonwealth or b) rejoining the Union staggers the imagination. I vote SF as the only party that still has a stated aim of unifying the country. The republican party underneath the Fianna Fáil has gotten so small you would need the Hubble telescope to see it. The Celtic tiger was great while it was here but it did alot more than build the IFSC and buy 4x4s........it allowed revisionism and post-colonialism to drive nails into the coffins of nationalism and republicanism in this country, whether you think of this country as 26 counties or 32 (like me).

And still, even with a party that has Brian Hayes and Gay Mitchell in it, I would much prefer an FF-FG coalition than an FG-Lab coalition next time out and why?

The country needs it, the economy needs it to recover and get us back on track. If Labour hold the purse strings we are screwed.

[an liathroid beag]

seriously?

I would say they were the best government we ever had.
The only policies they had that might be questioned was on Norn Iron.

Are you really serious!

The present Government have bankrupted this country and the next generation will have to pay for their corruption and mismanagement.

The last Taoiseach was a man devoid of any vision who was willing to sell his soul and the future of this country to cling onto power.Remember when he told people who urged prudence and foretold the crash to go and hang themselves.

Our entire political system requires reform. A system that favours mediocracy, where cute hoorism and stroke-pullers are elected at the expense of people with genuine talent. The talented people that we need in government will never put themselves forward with the present system.

[POL]

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the great dan sums it up well here

[Corcaigh32]

What's that taken from? Reeling in the Years?

[jams]

Are you really serious!

The present Government have bankrupted this country and the next generation will have to pay for their corruption and mismanagement.

The last Taoiseach was a man devoid of any vision who was willing to sell his soul and the future of this country to cling onto power.Remember when he told people who urged prudence and foretold the crash to go and hang themselves.

Our entire political system requires reform. A system that favours mediocracy, where cute hoorism and stroke-pullers are elected at the expense of people with genuine talent. The talented people that we need in government will never put themselves forward with the present system.



I was talking about the rainbow.
C32 said they were a joke.
I disagreed.

The government following their defeat (by John zero tolerance and the lads) wasn't too bad and the buying of the following two elections were where we went tits up.

Still no point complaining - we were bought - we should just fucking stay bought. It must be very annoying for FF to find that the majority were only rented. We get the government we deserve.

[Corcaigh32]

So as a matter of interest what would you say to an FF-FG government after the next election?

[corcadorca]

Well John we were never likely to agree which is unfortunate. The reason that FF and/or FG have been in power since the foundation of the state and over 60% of the population have consistently voted for them is because over 60% of the population are social conservatives and with the exception of the now non-existent national question and the inherited "who shot whose great grand-daddy" - think exactly the same way when it comes to the ballot box. The non-party aligned people i.e. Seán Soap voter, at a minimum of 60% of the electorate have consistently voted for FF and FG on what have been essentially the same policy platforms.

Now, if you genuinely see Labour as your natural policy partners that's fair enough. I would ask how you square Richard Bruton and Leo Varadkar both advocating a cut in public sector pay and Eamonn Gilmore quite flatly ruling it out. Just as an example. I

As for Rossport, I am utterly in favour of the Rossport development. I have argued this case in the relevant thread here on the PROC at length. This country has its own North Sea type reserves off the Porcupine Basin but due to the depths involved has to make the kind of deals it has in order to put the initial infrastructure in place to pull it out of the ground. The short-sightedness of the protests is n-i-m-b-y-ism at its worst.

As for the west brit thing - FG make a huge deal out of Béal na Bláth and the party that founded the State etc. How any public representative on this island can advocate either a) rejoining the commonwealth or b) rejoining the Union staggers the imagination. I vote SF as the only party that still has a stated aim of unifying the country. The republican party underneath the Fianna Fáil has gotten so small you would need the Hubble telescope to see it. The Celtic tiger was great while it was here but it did alot more than build the IFSC and buy 4x4s........it allowed revisionism and post-colonialism to drive nails into the coffins of nationalism and republicanism in this country, whether you think of this country as 26 counties or 32 (like me).

And still, even with a party that has Brian Hayes and Gay Mitchell in it, I would much prefer an FF-FG coalition than an FG-Lab coalition next time out and why?

The country needs it, the economy needs it to recover and get us back on track. If Labour hold the purse strings we are screwed.

Unifying under what? With what vision for the future. Say what you like about the unionists but they were spot on about home rule being rome rule, until that changes how could you expect them to join. Just tacking them on to this theocracy run by blind idiots would cause massive problems.

[starchaser]

I'm tired of people talking about 'Civil War Politics' like we actually have politics in ireland.
As far as i'm concerned we've had one party rule for 80% of the history of the state with the odd half-arsed coalition with labour or with a mickey-mouse party that implodes after it taints itself with the fianna fail virus.

In short, Fianna Fail take their excesses to the limit for a decade or two. We get a year and a half or two years of an alternative without time to achieve anything and then its business as usual.
Fine Gael are pretty much token opposition and Fianna Fail are always in power, so....
why the fuck do people talk about civil war politics and ignore blatant one party rule by the gangsters that run ireland?
civil war politics should suggest the side that won would be in power for more than three consecutive years once in the last 40 years. shouldn't it?

so you cant understand the difference between FG and FF.. i suggest to start reading up about a subject called "politics". might come in handy.

and i say that as someone who has no ties to FG or FF.. my background is WP. if you cant be bothered to figure it out, then YOU are part of the problem and not part of the solution.

[Corcaigh32]

Unifying under what? With what vision for the future. Say what you like about the unionists but they were spot on about home rule being rome rule, until that changes how could you expect them to join. Just tacking them on to this theocracy run by blind idiots would cause massive problems.

You can't seriously think Rome rule exists any more south of the border?
The last 20 years have obliterated any semblance of the vice-like grip the catholic church had on Irish society. The latest horrors continue to erode any position the hierarchy takes or weight that their pronouncements on social issues carries. Irish society is far more secularised now than it was 20 years ago.

As for unifying them under what, under what circumstances, making what compromises - that's a whole other thread.

[corcadorca]

You can't seriously think Rome rule exists any more south of the border?
The last 20 years have obliterated any semblance of the vice-like grip the catholic church had on Irish society. The latest horrors continue to erode any position the hierarchy takes or weight that their pronouncements on social issues carries. Irish society is far more secularised now than it was 20 years ago.

As for unifying them under what, under what circumstances, making what compromises - that's a whole other thread.

Granted they are not stalking around dancehalls seperating couples dancing too closely, and they don't control censorship like they... just remembered the blasphemy law, scratch that, ... but besides that the country is still brainwashed. People are debating resingnations rather than calling for prosection for hiding up crimes, As this guy,

9jHqndf9Kx4

put it recently 'hiding a crime is a crime, if it was you me or anyone else we'd be in court'. If it was a spate of bank robberies you'd hid you'd be up on criminal charges

I don't think the criminality of what the bishops have done computes with catholics.

I mean what does the church have to do to break the spell, to stop people going to mass, to stop people contributing to the church. Is there anything they could do? And you suggest subservience and deference to them is a thing of the past!