Where did it all go wrong?

[olliebtown]

Where did it all go wrong,
The country is fucked.

[slick fingers]

It aint that bad ffs.. The country just needs abit of adjustment..

People who survived on nothing for years will continue to survive, anyone who tasted success will just immigrate..

Cheer up!

[Harry Zontal]

1.) I don't think we're totally fucked.

2.) What went wrong was government, developers & bankers were totally wreckless.

[jd26]

Personally, I blame it on Tony O'Reilly.

His use of the Independent to support his personal vendetta against the Rainbow government, culminating in the "It's payback time" headline on election day brought Bertie the Crook to power.

We exchanged solid economic growth for explosive growth based on accumulation of debt. The Ireland of today was its inevitable outcome.

Still, with Waterford Glass gone to the wall and IN&M currently trading at 5c, O'Reilly has got his payback in some way. Now, if only the next government could investigate the country's oil licencing, we may be done with him.

[hemlock666]

Well seeing as Brian Cowen is a former minister for finance and is now Taoiseach it may be a bit of a cop out but here's a guy involved in the events that led up to the mess and now the guy in charge of sorting it out. Ideally every banker, developer and politician in the state over the past 15 years should be held to account for their action or inaction.

[ubernerd]

Well seeing as Brian Cowen is a former minister for finance and is now Taoiseach it may be a bit of a cop out but here's a guy involved in the events that led up to the mess and now the guy in charge of sorting it out. Ideally every banker, developer and politician in the state over the past 15 years should be held to account for their action or inaction.

Tony Gregory?

[hemlock666]

No Im not!

[Musical Paper Boy]

Where did it all go wrong,
The country is fucked.

It's people like you what cause unrest

[longbigandjuicy]

Personally, I blame it on Tony O'Reilly.

His use of the Independent to support his personal vendetta against the Rainbow government, culminating in the "It's payback time" headline on election day brought Bertie the Crook to power.

We exchanged solid economic growth for explosive growth based on accumulation of debt. The Ireland of today was its inevitable outcome.

Still, with Waterford Glass gone to the wall and IN&M currently trading at 5c, O'Reilly has got his payback in some way. Now, if only the next government could investigate the country's oil licencing, we may be done with him.

Good call.
By the way that rainbow government FG and Lab werent all that bad

[olliebtown]

It's people like you what cause unrest

Can you explain?

[poulgorm]

We were doing fine up as far as the semi final, after that...

[scoondle]

Obviously, it was the holy trinity of MaCreevy/Harney/Ahern. We had it coming. If government policy is greed and selfishness this is what you get. Ireland's situation does not suprise me at all. I am glad I was right all along.

[Musical Paper Boy]

Can you explain?

I wish to buy a fish license for my pet fish, Eric.

[Henry Hill]

The banks and the government pulled down our pants, then pulled down their own, stuck their erect penis up our ass and jirated their hips, while plying us with money. They got the idea from michael jackson. Many of the country was used to such treatment from their catholic education and were happy with the money, others closed their eyes and held on for dear life while picturing their bank accounts

[Beaty]

Obviously, it was the holy trinity of MaCreevy/Harney/Ahern. We had it coming. If government policy is greed and selfishness this is what you get. Ireland's situation does not suprise me at all. I am glad I was right all along.

Were you now?

S

[Corcaigh32]

O'Reilly loves whoever he thinks will win the next election - his rags are the Irish equivalent of the Sun in England (recently switching to the Tories) - they pick a side and stick with it. The O'Reilly Rags are as likely to back FG as they are FF, if they think FG will win. FG need to drop Kenny before the next election or pray that the next election happens in the next 6 months (not beyond the realms of possibility) while the anti-government, recession fury is still boiling in the veins of the electorate.

If the government runs its course and gets to introduce 2 more budgets (minimum) with the prospect of a mini-recovery and tax cuts, the next election might not be such a foregone conclusion.

[The Zurich Connection]

Where did it all go wrong,
The country is fucked.


Let me give you a few clues...

http://www.philth.ie/images/fianna-fail.jpg

http://mikeanderson.net/recuthies/Images/Catholic%20Church.pn g

[Corcaigh32]

The economy is fucked because of the global economic downturn and our over-emphasis on the construction sector which when the global recession hit left us badly exposed and now we are paying the price. Are FF exclusively to blame for that? Probably. But if they are to blame for it then they must also take the credit for creating the tiger in the first place - there must be a quid pro quo. The electorate will pay them their due in the ballot box.

The country is not fucked. We are a state of highly educated (for the most part), industrious and resourceful people and if we all stopped trying to run the place down, idolising our nearest neighbours like it was a hundred years ago and just rolled up our sleeves and got on with it (public and private sector alike) we wouldn't be long getting out of it.

The country's relationship with the catholic church has changed irrevocably in the last 20 years and given the most recent revelations no one would argue this wasn't for the better. However, bear in mind, there is a distinction between the institutions of the catholic church and its hierarchy and an individual's private faith. The country will be a poorer place if it loses a sense of its spiritual self whatever form that takes.

[ANVIL]

The economy is fucked because of the global economic downturn and our over-emphasis on the construction sector which when the global recession hit left us badly exposed and now we are paying the price. Are FF exclusively to blame for that? Probably. But if they are to blame for it then they must also take the credit for creating the tiger in the first place - there must be a quid pro quo. The electorate will pay them their due in the ballot box.

The country is not fucked. We are a state of highly educated (for the most part), industrious and resourceful people and if we all stopped trying to run the place down, idolising our nearest neighbours like it was a hundred years ago and just rolled up our sleeves and got on with it (public and private sector alike) we wouldn't be long getting out of it.

The country's relationship with the catholic church has changed irrevocably in the last 20 years and given the most recent revelations no one would argue this wasn't for the better. However, bear in mind, there is a distinction between the institutions of the catholic church and its hierarchy and an individual's private faith. The country will be a poorer place if it loses a sense of its spiritual self whatever form that takes.



I disagree, mon cheri.
Years ago Ireland was a rural backwater of Europe not unlike Romania where some people still used the horse and cart for transportation and the Catholic Church overlooked the fact that many of its priests enjoyed forced anal sex with under-age boys.
Then some fellers got together in Doheny and Nesbitts over a few pints and worked out if you didn't regulate the banks too harshly and you kept Corporation Tax down you'd have a bit of a boom on your hands.
They all made hay while the sun shined, they conned an entire population who insisted on returning blatantly corrupt politicians to power and then it all fell apart at the seams.
Today Ireland's brightest young people are having to leave the country to find work and the only difference from then is that now they don't wear flares and they fly rather than catch a ferry.
And the Catholic Church is still getting away with it.

[Corcaigh32]

Yea I suppose, this is where you and I will probably always part ways Anvil, which is fair enough I suppose. It's been to easy to do the Boomtown Banana Republic gig and it's always very a la mode. Knock the things which have been strong parts of the state so far, catholic church, FF, you could go on and say the GAA etc etc etc.

That's not to say that they should not be criticised - the hierarchy of the catholic church in Ireland has used its undue power to avoid criminal prosecutions and cover up the most heinous crimes - but should that completely negate all the good work done by the clergy on behalf of the poor and underpriviledged too?

Similarly, FF have been in power for more than 80% of the history of the state. Should the pocket-lining of the few and misjudgements in relation to the construction industry and not putting money away for the rainiest of rainy days since the 1930's completely overshadow LeMass's achievements or the Celtic Tiger in full roar? Surely the electorate will pass their judgement in the fullness of time.

My problem is the Eoghan Harris's and the Fintan O'Toole's and the Mary Ellen Synan's and Kevin Myers's of the country. They breed the David Begg's of the country. They breed the Tony O'Reilly's and the Brian Hayes of the country. The ones who are forever saying what is wrong with the place and who is to blame for it. That's not to say the country has no problems, God knows it does. But for 800 years we tried to make it so we could determine our own future and we got it for 26/32's of the country. I seriously think the next election is the first time we have an opportunity to break from the grip of old style politics and move to a new dispensation. Politics like it is everywhere else. Right v Left. A new alignment. I find it hard to accept that union leaders feel it acceptable to say they should disengage from discourse with the government and should now concentrate their efforts on bringing about a change in that government. As if 300,000 should dictate the course of the nation for the rest of us. If there was a Private Sector Action Group to oppose ICTU for the sake of argument, it would be a different kind of civil war all over again.

Point being, things are not as bad as people keep on saying if we just knuckle down. I lost my job nearly 3 years ago, found another one and am breaking my back to keep it. I genuinely believe if we keep pluggin away instead of keep knockin the place we would do ourselves alot more good.

Rant over. ;)

[ANVIL]

Yea I suppose, this is where you and I will probably always part ways Anvil, which is fair enough I suppose. It's been to easy to do the Boomtown Banana Republic gig and it's always very a la mode. Knock the things which have been strong parts of the state so far, catholic church, FF, you could go on and say the GAA etc etc etc.

That's not to say that they should not be criticised - the hierarchy of the catholic church in Ireland has used its undue power to avoid criminal prosecutions and cover up the most heinous crimes - but should that completely negate all the good work done by the clergy on behalf of the poor and underpriviledged too?

Similarly, FF have been in power for more than 80% of the history of the state. Should the pocket-lining of the few and misjudgements in relation to the construction industry and not putting money away for the rainiest of rainy days since the 1930's completely overshadow LeMass's achievements or the Celtic Tiger in full roar? Surely the electorate will pass their judgement in the fullness of time.

My problem is the Eoghan Harris's and the Fintan O'Toole's and the Mary Ellen Synan's and Kevin Myers's of the country. They breed the David Begg's of the country. They breed the Tony O'Reilly's and the Brian Hayes of the country. The ones who are forever saying what is wrong with the place and who is to blame for it. That's not to say the country has no problems, God knows it does. But for 800 years we tried to make it so we could determine our own future and we got it for 26/32's of the country. I seriously think the next election is the first time we have an opportunity to break from the grip of old style politics and move to a new dispensation. Politics like it is everywhere else. Right v Left. A new alignment. I find it hard to accept that union leaders feel it acceptable to say they should disengage from discourse with the government and should now concentrate their efforts on bringing about a change in that government. As if 300,000 should dictate the course of the nation for the rest of us. If there was a Private Sector Action Group to oppose ICTU for the sake of argument, it would be a different kind of civil war all over again.

Point being, things are not as bad as people keep on saying if we just knuckle down. I lost my job nearly 3 years ago, found another one and am breaking my back to keep it. I genuinely believe if we keep pluggin away instead of keep knockin the place we would do ourselves alot more good.

Rant over. ;)


Here's a tip,chuck.
If you want people to read what you write at least make yourself readable.
Rather than swallowing a whole copy of the Irish Times and hoping that the
shit that comes out of your other end is in the right order with correct punctuation and grammar.

[Corcaigh32]

That it?

[corcadorca]

The economy is fucked because of the global economic downturn and our over-emphasis on the construction sector which when the global recession hit left us badly exposed and now we are paying the price. Are FF exclusively to blame for that? Probably. But if they are to blame for it then they must also take the credit for creating the tiger in the first place - there must be a quid pro quo. The electorate will pay them their due in the ballot box.

The country is not fucked. We are a state of highly educated (for the most part), industrious and resourceful people and if we all stopped trying to run the place down, idolising our nearest neighbours like it was a hundred years ago and just rolled up our sleeves and got on with it (public and private sector alike) we wouldn't be long getting out of it.

The country's relationship with the catholic church has changed irrevocably in the last 20 years and given the most recent revelations no one would argue this wasn't for the better. However, bear in mind, there is a distinction between the institutions of the catholic church and its hierarchy and an individual's private faith. The country will be a poorer place if it loses a sense of its spiritual self whatever form that takes.

I agree with you on most of this, especially idolising our neighbours (on both sides of the water).

Certainly, we'd be better off if we'd quakers or some other form of Christianity that places the burden of responsiblity for one's action on the person, instead of Catholicism, where nobody is really guilty as we're all so depraved and helpless due to original sin.

And, while there is a difference between the institutional church and private faith, it is Catholics with faith who keep the church going.


I'm taking it as axiomatic that we'd be better off without the catholic church, that they foster gullibility and subservience, but I take it a step further in that I think we'd be better off if we did away with faith. I disagree that 'people need something to believe in'. We do need sacredness in life, a sense of awe and wonder, but that's not the same as belief. These things don't require belief. They might require suspension of disbelief - reading novels or letting the right brain have free reign for a while engaging with art, poetry, nature etc, but the difference is that we come back to using our reasoning faculties and these graces are not doled out by jealous authorities whom we must bow down to and who deem to dictate on the intimacies of how we ought to run our lives;

permanent suspension of disbelief, which is what faith is, is a recipe for disaster.

[Henry Hill]

An interesting point in the whole debate is that irish exports are doing very well. If they were hit as badly as our EU neighbours our GDP would be down close to 20% so this nonsense about us being a smart open economy is overplayed on FF part. So its basically to property bubble, cheap credit, our tax structure and how uncompetitive we are. So a lot of it is self inflicted.

[Mick Lyons]

It's the fucking Brits fault.

[malolo]

...and polish...

[The Magnificent Specimen]

It's giving our politicians far to much credit to say they are responsible for the mess.They were at best,blind eyes and deaf ears to a phenomenon that was engineered from a far higher level.
Peter Sutherland is one to watch.He was the man at Goldman Sachs.He has sold our country down the river.FF & co are , mere carrion birds picking at his leftovers.And the real sorry thing is that his job is done, apart from the 'running Europe ' bit which his illness should prevent.This sinister bastard deserves every misfortune that could befall a human being.

[corcadorca]

It's the fucking Brits fault.

http://www.irishtimes.com/homepage/images/1224261466392.jpg?ts =1262204478

the you are the nicked

[scoondle]

Ìt seems like you think that credit should be given for the so-called "Celtic Tiger" economy.
I've been going on about this for the last 12 years. Ahern, McCreevy and Harney built this recession by their policy of everyone for themselves. It is complete Thatcherism which normal people in this country used to be opposed to. I am one of those "I told you so"s. I am delighted that I was proved correct all along. We deserve everything that is happening now in this country.

[dennisfallen]

It's the fucking Brits fault.

...and polish...

Brit and polish....?







And there was me thinking it was Spit and polish.
:-?

[Corcaigh32]

Scoondle - if the global recession had never hit and the Lehmans had never happened (for the sake of argument) what do you think the state of the country's finances would have been for the last 18 months?

[Hang_Sandwich]

Scoondle - if the global recession had never hit and the Lehmans had never happened (for the sake of argument) what do you think the state of the country's finances would have been for the last 18 months?
the global recession has not hit ireland hard, a few manufacturing jobs gone but the bulk of our problems are completely home grown. more than 25% of the population working in unsustainable levels of construction.. come on. what fucked irealnd was teh removal of the mortgage cap. if that stayed then loan books would ahve been smaller - salaries would be smaller and levels of increase in construction would ahve been more sustainable