Teachers on €64,000 per year!!!

[ManielMan]

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0416/teachers.html

Figures reveal pay inequality for teachers
Thursday, 16 April 2009 15:32

New figures show that male primary school teachers earn on average €8,000 more than their female counterparts and are far more likely to become school principals.

The data was supplied to the primary teachers' union, the INTO, by the Department of Education.

15% of primary school teachers are male - a figure that is widely acknowledged as too low.

However, male teachers are far more likely to hold senior posts than their female counterparts and they will earn a lot more.

A man has a greater than one-in-four chance of being a principal, while a woman has a one-in-13 chance.

According to the data, the average male teacher earns €64,000 per annum, while the average female earns €56,000.

The INTO took an historic step yesterday electing its first female general secretary.

Sheila Nunan will replace John Carr when he retires next year.



Are these guys taking the piss with their strike or what?
Thats over twice as much per year as anyone I know.
Fcuking greedy cnuts!

[willcork123]

56grand a year your takin the piss

[Musical Paper Boy]

56grand a year your takin the piss

for doing what comes naturally to them, looking after kids :)

[willcork123]

WHAT peodaphiles !

[diar2me]

But wait, I thought teachers were concerned about cutting in education and the students. I remember hearing they were worried about students welfare bla bla bla. Self interest is all they're about and nothing else! That has finally been shown!

[ManielMan]

Diar2Me, have a look off this ba: Post 67: Its a teacher's forum
http://forum.educationposts .ie/viewtopic.php?id=310 80&p=3

The fcukin greedy langer is saying that its tough sh1t if people have to emigrate so that they can have more money.
Other people are saying we should all pay more tax so they can have more money.
And they're all backing each other up.
Thats what happens when you live in a cushioned little fantasy world.

They start listing off reasons why people should emigrate and they're not even taking the piss.
Pack of fcuking weasels.
Its me, me, me and fcuk the rest of ye.

[diar2me]

Diar2Me, have a look off this ba: Post 67: Its a teacher's forum
http://forum.educationposts .ie/viewtopic.php?id=310 80&p=3

The fcukin greedy langer is saying that its tough sh1t if people have to emigrate so that they can have more money.
Other people are saying we should all pay more tax so they can have more money.
And they're all backing each other up.
Thats what happens when you live in a cushioned little fantasy world.

They start listing off reasons why people should emigrate and they're not even taking the piss.
Pack of fcuking weasels.
Its me, me, me and fcuk the rest of ye.

Ah but Begg, O Connor, INTO etc etc etc are all concerned with the students welfare :rolleyes: There's no self interest there, they're all martyrs!

[ManielMan]

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/unite-members-vote-for-public-sector-strike-434511.html

Unite are going strike too.

The union represents public sector workers in the local authorities, the HSE and the education sector. Between 80% and 95% of workers across the different sectors voted in favour of the industrial action.



There'll be riots in the streets yet I'd say.

[eire_sai]

Diar2Me, have a look off this ba: Post 67: Its a teacher's forum
http://forum.educationposts .ie/viewtopic.php?id=310 80&p=3

The fcukin greedy langer is saying that its tough sh1t if people have to emigrate so that they can have more money.
Other people are saying we should all pay more tax so they can have more money.
And they're all backing each other up.
Thats what happens when you live in a cushioned little fantasy world.

They start listing off reasons why people should emigrate and they're not even taking the piss.
Pack of fcuking weasels.
Its me, me, me and fcuk the rest of ye.

excellent post, that forum shows the fucking me feiners to be what they really are

greedy, selfish bastards, the school building can fall down around them once they
get their fat fucking extortionate salaries, i hate them

[ManielMan]

http://www.into.ie/ROI/Informationfo...monB asicScale/
This is the common basic scale excluding all allowances etc.


On the common basic scale alone, there is a 70% pay gap between a standard science graduate and a teaching graduate.

All things considered, the smallest wage one earns is approx €35,000 starting off, which is not far off double what the most other graduates earn. (Most science graduates earn €19-23k in their first year)

In fact, one can earn up to €65,000 even without a post of responsibility.

In the primary sector, one can earn up to €109,000 per year.


The level of greed is obscene, truly boggles the mind.

[Rebel CNC]

I'd say once those lads and their colleagues in the Public service start striking, they will face some unbelievable anger from the rest of the country.

All their bleating about "the education of the children is our only priority" stopped once they thought they were going to have some form of cut to their big fat salary and associated perks.

[hiawatha]

http://www.into.ie/ROI/Informationfo...monB asicScale/
This is the common basic scale excluding all allowances etc.


On the common basic scale alone, there is a 70% pay gap between a standard science graduate and a teaching graduate.

All things considered, the smallest wage one earns is approx €35,000 starting off, which is not far off double what the most other graduates earn. (Most science graduates earn €19-23k in their first year)

In fact, one can earn up to €65,000 even without a post of responsibility.

In the primary sector, one can earn up to €109,000 per year.


The level of greed is obscene, truly boggles the mind.

To be fair, that €109,000 is a theoretical maximum and you'd have to be a principal in a school with 36 teachers on an island or something along those lines. Otherwise I can't really fault your argument.

[RodrigoCardoso]

Are these guys taking the piss with their strike or what?
Thats over twice as much per year as anyone I know.
Fcuking greedy cnuts!

Yes because every single teacher is on 64k.
It's an average for a reason. There are people on 32k and striking. Is that allowed?

[Mossybanks]

Yes because every single teacher is on 64k.
It's an average for a reason. There are people on 32k and striking. Is that allowed?

I think they should go on strike, and that the government should lock them out. These one day "strikes" are designed to save the unions having to pay out strike pay. Leave them out for a week at least and save the country more money.

[KolaKubes]

The average male teacher is on €64,000 a year?!?!?!?

I can't believe that.

My mother was on that as a VP of a school and after nearly 40 years teaching.

I'd have thought they'd have pretty much topped out at something like that.

nah, not buying it.

[RodrigoCardoso]

The average male teacher is on €64,000 a year?!?!?!?

I can't believe that.

My mother was on that as a VP of a school and after nearly 40 years teaching.

I'd have thought they'd have pretty much topped out at something like that.

nah, not buying it.

Bit of perspective alright.
The only way 64k is an average is if the average teacher is in the job 30 years and on that salary. Which I doubt.
The way this is being belted out it's implied that people right out of college are on that kind of money which is retarded.

[Jim Comic]

i'd love to teach history but i think in the education system you have to be able to do some other shit too, like math or irish.... which immediately rules me out alas

[KolaKubes]

Bit of perspective alright.
The only way 64k is an average is if the average teacher is in the job 30 years and on that salary. Which I doubt.
The way this is being belted out it's implied that people right out of college are on that kind of money which is retarded.

http://www.tui.ie/Salary_Scales/Default.286.html

The top rate is just about €64k.

There's some shenanigans here, unless there's no male teacher not on the top rate straight out of college.

[ManielMan]

Bit of perspective alright.
The only way 64k is an average is if the average teacher is in the job 30 years and on that salary. Which I doubt.
The way this is being belted out it's implied that people right out of college are on that kind of money which is retarded.

Have a look at the original link I posted biy.

INTO figures, on RTE.

Are the INTO lying?

[ManielMan]

The average male teacher is on €64,000 a year?!?!?!?

I can't believe that.

My mother was on that as a VP of a school and after nearly 40 years teaching.

I'd have thought they'd have pretty much topped out at something like that.

nah, not buying it.

How long ago fella?

The benchmarking nonsense only came in, in recent years, don't forget.
And Mary Harney said on Sunday that it was a huge mistake.

Your old lade was probably one of the honest ones I'd say.

[ManielMan]

There's some shenanigans here, .

I was thinking there was a Roddy Molloy in the midst myself, but the figures checked out.

Add up the salary and allowances. (sayin nathin of the pension like)

[ManielMan]

I'd say once those lads and their colleagues in the Public service start striking, they will face some unbelievable anger from the rest of the country.

All their bleating about "the education of the children is our only priority" stopped once they thought they were going to have some form of cut to their big fat salary and associated perks.

A Fiend I know, his wife is dead, and hes taken a 20% paycut himself.

He has to put his daughter in care for the day of the strike, it'll cost him 2 days free work.

Same fellas only on about 28k himself.
He said hes thinking about going down to the picket and throwing a few bops.

[SuperHans]

A Fiend I know, his wife is dead, and hes taken a 20% paycut himself.

He has to put his daughter in care for the day of the strike, it'll cost him 2 days free work.

Same fellas only on about 28k himself.
He said hes thinking about going down to the picket and throwing a few bops.

Is he educated to at least degree + postgraduate diploma and as 25 years teaching experience?

If so, he has a genuine gripe. If not, it doesn't matter whether he earns 2.8K, 28K or 280K because you are not comparing like with like.

64K is not a lot of money for someone with 25 years of teaching under their belt.

[ManielMan]

Is he educated to at least degree + postgraduate diploma and as 25 years teaching experience?

If so, he has a genuine gripe. If not, it doesn't matter whether he earns 2.8K, 28K or 280K because you are not comparing like with like.

64K is not a lot of money for someone with 25 years of teaching under their belt.

He has a phd in Artificial Intelligence
Don't know how many years, about 9 or 10 I'd say.

How can a teacher with just a degree start off on 35k and the likes of him start off on 19k?

Hdip doesn't count for shit because its a pre-req, most industries have something similar.

Doesn't make sense to me ba.

I always hear teachers trot out that line "we're teachers, we took time to educate ourself and we deserve a reward."
I'm not a carpenter, but its just a way of condescending to manual workers. Takes them 4 years to get a trade ba.

They're not comparing like for like.

[poulgorm]

€64k is not great, when you take into account their long hours, short holidays...

[hurlerondeditch]

Not knocking teachers here, as I think most of them do a fine job. In fact I would think a lot of them go into the teaching profession as a vocation, rather than to earn a living.

One thing has always puzzled me about their strikes, however. Historically this state has had an underfunded education system, particularly at primary level. Many schools would be unheated but for parent funding. The pupil teacher ratio has consistently been one of the highest in western Europe. Many children spend their schooldays in prefabs, some in rat-infested hovels. Yet any strikes I can recall, the core issues have been their own pay and conditions.:confused :

[ManielMan]

Historically this state has had an underfunded education system, particularly at primary level. Many schools would be unheated but for parent funding. The pupil teacher ratio has consistently been one of the highest in western Europe. Many children spend their schooldays in prefabs, some in rat-infested hovels. Yet any strikes I can recall, the core issues have been their own pay and conditions.:confused :

If they were paid anywhere like their UK counterparts, all of those dilemmas you so eloquently described above would be history within a week.

Our education system is not underfunded, it is our teachers who are overpaid.
Anytime education gets a spend increase, it goes into teacher's wages.

The fact is, an average school has 15 permanent teachers and 5 temporary teachers - who might be temp for 15 years until one of the other senior teachers retire.
If the pay was reformed, you would have 30 permanent teachers, warm classrooms, small classes etc.

How does a teacher make 64k, when a fireman makes only 50?
Are kids life threatening these days now I wonder?

[Barrytron]

Where do these freaks get off. The figures being revealed here truly are astonishing. I can't believe they start off on 35K.

[ManielMan]

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/8364300000-spent-on-irish-army-riot-kit-1943964.html

€300,000 spent on Irish Army riot kit
By Don Lavery Exclusive

Sunday November 15 2009

The Army is gearing up to deal with possible public disorder on our streets.

The Defence Forces are to get new anti-riot equipment at a cost of €300,000. The new kit has been bought to protect soldiers who have to deal with rioters in Ireland or on peace keeping missions abroad.

But the equipment will only be used here when gardai are unable to cope with demonstrations and call on the Army for support. It will also be used in routine training for soldiers.

Asked if the equipment was being procured to cope with large-scale public demonstrations over government cutbacks and policies a Defence Forces spokesman said: "No. It's being bought to replace existing stocks."

He explained that the Army has a crowd control anti-riot role if needed but "since the Troubles we have had a stock of anti-riot equipment in barracks, its been that way since the Seventies".

"But, no, we have not been told to be ready for November 24," he said, referring to the the proposed national strike on that day.

The order, placed with Daniel Technologies of Dublin, includes protective knee and armpads, helmets and visors, while soldiers also have access to body armour, batons and shields. Enough material has been ordered to equip 500 soldiers.

The equipment will be kept in barracks near locations where public order disturbances could break out. These are likely to include the Dail, the border and Shannon Airport. The last order for such equipment was in 2000.

Tender documents show the order was for the "supply of public order blunt trauma personnel protective equipment for use in public order, crowd and riot control operations at home and abroad".

Training in such equipment was put to the test in March 2004 when riots broke out in Kosovo and Irish soldiers were praised by KFOR for their role in containing the violence.

Soldiers were backed up by Irish Mowag armoured vehicles, while sniper/spotter teams with AI 96 sniper rifles in overwatch positions protected them against gunmen among the rioters.


Interesting times ahead.

[ManielMan]

Don't know if you saw it, but Garret Fitzgerald was on Frontline.

He put a figure on recovery at 8 to 10 years.
He said Fianna Fail have wrecked the economy twice in 25 years, time for a new government to take over.

He also said that we will all have to take wage reductions & higher taxes over the next 2 years.

Personally I was relieved just to hear someone finally tell the truth.
Its gonna take 10 years, lads, but there is light at the end of the tunnel. Some GOOD news at least!!
Heres to 2018

[ManielMan]

DCU said no to strike, just the greedy teachers then.

[RodrigoCardoso]

Where do these freaks get off. The figures being revealed here truly are astonishing. I can't believe they start off on 35K.

Well that doesn't make sense because I know several teachers and none of them started on 35k.

[diar2me]

Look a bit of perspective here! Think a few people are going overboard on teachers here, maybe due to the some past experiences or something. They are no worse than the Guards, in fact the Guards are prob worse, or any other frontline public sector employee. I just hate when they and unions come out with waffle that they are doing it for the poor kids or society or some other bullshit. Call a fucking spade a spade! And i AGREE with what a previous poster said, with all the prefabs and controversy that has gone on around the conditions of some of our educations system I think it is a bit rich that this is the first strike we have seen, considering the fact that there's rats running around in some schools and that by their own admission teaching is a "VOCATION" ........

[MBE Digital]

Would in not be a worthwhile exercise to publish some sort of league table for the public service.

There are so many thousand teachers

So many earn between: €30 - €35k and so forth
As an appendix you could list all the allowances, what they are worth and how many teachers claim them.

This could be done for the whole public service

There seems to be a huge amount of secrecy and misinformation in regard to pay in the public service.

Should these figures not be in the public domain and easily accessible and understandable to the general public

[eire_sai]

Don't know if you saw it, but Garret Fitzgerald was on Frontline.

He put a figure on recovery at 8 to 10 years.
He said Fianna Fail have wrecked the economy twice in 25 years, time for a new government to take over.

He also said that we will all have to take wage reductions & higher taxes over the next 2 years.

Personally I was relieved just to hear someone finally tell the truth.
Its gonna take 10 years, lads, but there is light at the end of the tunnel. Some GOOD news at least!!
Heres to 2018

Garret speaks the truth. It takes the old enemy of CJ to tell the people how they were,
yet again, duped by the successor that CJ groomed.

[eire_sai]

Look a bit of perspective here! Think a few people are going overboard on teachers here, maybe due to the some past experiences or something. They are no worse than the Guards, in fact the Guards are prob worse, or any other frontline public sector employee. I just hate when they and unions come out with waffle that they are doing it for the poor kids or society or some other bullshit. Call a fucking spade a spade! And i AGREE with what a previous poster said, with all the prefabs and controversy that has gone on around the conditions of some of our educations system I think it is a bit rich that this is the first strike we have seen, considering the fact that there's rats running around in some schools and that by their own admission teaching is a "VOCATION" ........

"That amounts to 58 weeks after first entering the College. Once 58 weeks training are successfully completed, Student Gardaí are attested & go onto (at today’s rates) €25,792 per annum + Rent allowance (paid to all those attested) of €4,162.48 per annum."

A 4 grand rent allowance after graduation from a 1 year course. In fairness like.

From GRA website, http://www.gra.cc/payscales.shtml

[longbigandjuicy]

Don't know if you saw it, but Garret Fitzgerald was on Frontline.

He put a figure on recovery at 8 to 10 years.
He said Fianna Fail have wrecked the economy twice in 25 years, time for a new government to take over.

He also said that we will all have to take wage reductions & higher taxes over the next 2 years.

Personally I was relieved just to hear someone finally tell the truth.
Its gonna take 10 years, lads, but there is light at the end of the tunnel. Some GOOD news at least!!
Heres to 2018

A lot of doom attached to what Garret said but im being to think he is speaking the truth on this.

[Rebel CNC]

A lot of doom attached to what Garret said but im being to think he is speaking the truth on this.


I'd be a lot happier if he was in charge of FG and hence the next government.

Enda just can't grasp the scale or complexity of the problems facing the economy and he doesn't have the vision or cojones to drive through the strategy required over next few years.

Richard Bruton would be a lot more able.

[ManielMan]

Would in not be a worthwhile exercise to publish some sort of league table for the public service.

There are so many thousand teachers

So many earn between: €30 - €35k and so forth
As an appendix you could list all the allowances, what they are worth and how many teachers claim them.

This could be done for the whole public service

There seems to be a huge amount of secrecy and misinformation in regard to pay in the public service.

Should these figures not be in the public domain and easily accessible and understandable to the general public

That is a good idea.
Very good idea actually!

They should do it with TD salaries and expenses, and with public servants.

Sometimes you can get stuff from the CSO (http://www.cso.ie), but it can be like reading hieroglyphics at times

Here is roughly what the teachers earned compared to other professions in 2007:
http://ronanlyons.files.wor dpress.com/2009/04/salary-by-sector-2007.png

Note however, that this graph is now out of whack, as they've had pay increases, while nearly 500,000 people in the private sector have lost their jobs, and the rest have taken 10% paycuts etc.

So being a teacher in Ireland is actually one of the most lucrative professions in all of Europe.
Massive salary, Massive pension, job for life. etc.

[ManielMan]

Would in not be a worthwhile exercise to publish some sort of league table for the public service.

There are so many thousand teachers

So many earn between: €30 - €35k and so forth
As an appendix you could list all the allowances, what they are worth and how many teachers claim them.

This could be done for the whole public service

There seems to be a huge amount of secrecy and misinformation in regard to pay in the public service.

Should these figures not be in the public domain and easily accessible and understandable to the general public

Revenue Chart
http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/5217/53057432.jpg

36% of middle-top earners are from public services and this while public services are only 15% of whole workforce.
It means if you working in public services – you two times richer then your private colleague

[BangorFeen]

Are these guys taking the piss with their strike or what?
Thats over twice as much per year as anyone I know.
Fcuking greedy cnuts!
Right then, what should a teacher at the mid-point in their scale be paid IYO? Bear in mind that they'll have studied for a minimum of four yearsand by the time they get to that sort of money will have about 5-10 years experience.

[diar2me]

"That amounts to 58 weeks after first entering the College. Once 58 weeks training are successfully completed, Student Gardaí are attested & go onto (at today’s rates) €25,792 per annum + Rent allowance (paid to all those attested) of €4,162.48 per annum."

A 4 grand rent allowance after graduation from a 1 year course. In fairness like.

From GRA website, http://www.gra.cc/payscales.shtml

I am speaking about them holding the public to ransom with their posters etc etc

[ManielMan]

Right then, what should a teacher at the mid-point in their scale be paid IYO?

LOL, gotta be a teacher, only a teacher talks like that:
Right then, bla bla bla (finger going 90, condescending tone etc.)

MY opinion of what teachers SHOULD or SHOULD NOT be paid is IRRELEVANT

Here are the facts:
1) The Public sector wage bill is about 65% of Government expenditure

2) Government income is less than Government expenditure

3) The government can't keep borrowing to make up the shortfall.

4) The Private sector which pays for the public sector is in recession

5) They can't keep increasing taxes on the private sector, taxing a damaged economy has been to reduce economic activity, not increase it.

Therefore, teachers have no moral right to be striking and putting the entire country in jeopardy.


Bear in mind that they'll have studied for a minimum of four yearsand by the time they get to that sort of money will have about 5-10 years experience.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:
What sort of job doesn't have a 4 year degree pre-req these days?

After 5 years in any of the Science fields, you're looking at €35k MAX and everybody has taken massive paycuts.

The greedy fat cat teachers START OFF on 35k, and they go on strike when they're earning 65k and have to take a paycut.

Feel free to contradict anything I said with verifiable evidence.

[BangorFeen]

LOL, gotta be a teacher, only a teacher talks like that:
Right then, bla bla bla (finger going 90, condescending tone etc.)

MY opinion of what teachers SHOULD or SHOULD NOT be paid is IRRELEVANT

Here are the facts:
1) The Public sector wage bill is about 65% of Government expenditure

2) Government income is less than Government expenditure

3) The government can't keep borrowing to make up the shortfall.

4) The Private sector which pays for the public sector is in recession

5) They can't keep increasing taxes on the private sector, taxing a damaged economy has been to reduce economic activity, not increase it.

Therefore, teachers have no moral right to be striking and putting the entire country in jeopardy.


:rolleyes::rolleyes:
What sort of job doesn't have a 4 year degree pre-req these days?

After 5 years in any of the Science fields, you're looking at €35k MAX and everybody has taken massive paycuts.

The greedy fat cat teachers START OFF on 35k, and they go on strike when they're earning 65k and have to take a paycut.

Feel free to contradict anything I said with verifiable evidence.
Not a teacher but figures are being bandied around without much regard to reality. Several people have contributed already with the point that the 64K figure you refer to being at the upper end of the scale. It's not representative of Joe Teacher. You also might want to read the parlimentary answer recently where 44% of the public service were shown to be on €40K or less. Should they be cut too?

Secondly; no moral right to strike? Please. If peoples' pay and conditions are being unilaterally threatened then you think they should not strike?

Plenty of jobs come without a requirement to have studied for four years. Some of them pay a good living, others don't.

According the to DoE, basic starting pay is €32K, not €35K. That's considerably less than the average industrial wage.

The private sector pays for the public sector? What a terribly partial way of putting it. Do public servants not pay tax just like everyone else? Do private enterprises not receive grants and funding from the public purse?

There'll be paycuts alright. I don't reckon there's much the unions can do about but it is the inaliable right of public sector workers (or any workers for that matter) to strike when their conditions are being undermined without meaningful negotiation.

[BangorFeen]

Great post! Why do teachers think they deserve more than the private sector workers?
Becuase comparing "teacher" with "private sector worker" is not like-for-like?

[SuperHans]

LOL, gotta be a teacher, only a teacher talks like that:
Right then, bla bla bla (finger going 90, condescending tone etc.)

MY opinion of what teachers SHOULD or SHOULD NOT be paid is IRRELEVANT

Here are the facts:
1) The Public sector wage bill is about 65% of Government expenditure

2) Government income is less than Government expenditure

3) The government can't keep borrowing to make up the shortfall.

4) The Private sector which pays for the public sector is in recession

5) They can't keep increasing taxes on the private sector, taxing a damaged economy has been to reduce economic activity, not increase it.

Therefore, teachers have no moral right to be striking and putting the entire country in jeopardy.


:rolleyes::rolleyes:
What sort of job doesn't have a 4 year degree pre-req these days?

After 5 years in any of the Science fields, you're looking at €35k MAX and everybody has taken massive paycuts.

The greedy fat cat teachers START OFF on 35k, and they go on strike when they're earning 65k and have to take a paycut.

Feel free to contradict anything I said with verifiable evidence.

Have a look at monster.com. Plenty of jobs there to contradict your theory.

http://jobview.monster.ie/Polymer-Engineer-Job-Limerick-Limerick-Ireland-84637753.aspx (60K base, 7 years exp)

http://jobview.monster.ie/Quality-Engineer-Job-Galway-Galway-Ireland-84403992.aspx (35-55k, 2 years exp)

http://jobview.monster.ie/COMPUTER-SYSTEMS-VALIDATION-ENGINEER-Job-DUBLIN-Dublin-Ireland-80609304.aspx (45-60K , 3 years exp)

http://jobview.monster.ie/Lean-Manufacturing-Engineer-%E2%80%93-Galway-based-Job-Galway-Galway-Ireland-84383180.aspx (50-60K, 5 years exp)

[BangorFeen]

Have a look at monster.com. Plenty of jobs there to contradict your theory.

http://jobview.monster.ie/Polymer-Engineer-Job-Limerick-Limerick-Ireland-84637753.aspx (60K base, 7 years exp)

http://jobview.monster.ie/Quality-Engineer-Job-Galway-Galway-Ireland-84403992.aspx (35-55k, 2 years exp)

http://jobview.monster.ie/COMPUTER-SYSTEMS-VALIDATION-ENGINEER-Job-DUBLIN-Dublin-Ireland-80609304.aspx (45-60K , 3 years exp)

http://jobview.monster.ie/Lean-Manufacturing-Engineer-%E2%80%93-Galway-based-Job-Galway-Galway-Ireland-84383180.aspx (50-60K, 5 years exp)
Burn them. Burn them all.

[ManielMan]

Not a teacher but figures are being bandied around without much regard to reality. Several people have contributed already with the point that the 64K figure you refer to being at the upper end of the scale. It's not representative of Joe Teacher. You also might want to read the parlimentary answer recently where 44% of the public service were shown to be on €40K or less. Should they be cut too?

Secondly; no moral right to strike? Please. If peoples' pay and conditions are being unilaterally threatened then you think they should not strike?

Plenty of jobs come without a requirement to have studied for four years. Some of them pay a good living, others don't.

According the to DoE, basic starting pay is €32K, not €35K. That's considerably less than the average industrial wage.

The private sector pays for the public sector? What a terribly partial way of putting it. Do public servants not pay tax just like everyone else? Do private enterprises not receive grants and funding from the public purse?

There'll be paycuts alright. I don't reckon there's much the unions can do about but it is the inaliable right of public sector workers (or any workers for that matter) to strike when their conditions are being undermined without meaningful negotiation.

^^
All anecdotal. bla bla drone waffle

Give me some facts, Some verifiable evidence, as I've given you.
You can leave the opinion piece at home

[BangorFeen]

Indeed, teachers work less hours than most private sector workers; therfore they deserve lower salaries!

If you think teachers are in anyway special, you need your head checking!
Special compared to whom? Using the generic "workers" term is redundant here.
BTW, classroom hours are not the only time commitments of a teacher. Some of these extra commitments are reflected in allowances, others are not, to the best of my knowledge.

I ask again (in general), what would you think fair as the basic salary for a teacher?

[BangorFeen]

^^
All anecdotal. bla bla drone waffle

Give me some facts, Some verifiable evidence, as I've given you.
You can leave the opinion piece at home
Well by the looks of things some of your "facts" were bogus...

And in any event, I gave you facts. Basic is 32K not 35K and nearly half of all Pubsec workers are earning either below the average industrial wage or only slightly above it.

[ManielMan]

Secondly; no moral right to strike? Please. If peoples' pay and conditions are being unilaterally threatened then you think they should not strike?

Absolutely I think they should not strike.
This country is on the brink of collapse, IMF style.
See the McCarthy Report Page 14.
Contradict with evidence please.



Plenty of jobs come without a requirement to have studied for four years. Some of them pay a good living, others don't.

Nonsense. They are either unskilled or high risk.
If they are unskilled, they are not high paid. (shelf stacker)
If they are high risk, you are compensated for risk. (fireman)




According the to DoE, basic starting pay is €32K, not €35K. That's considerably less than the average industrial wage.

I've already provided the basic common scale.
You're ignoring allowances.

Where are the facts? Where is the proof? Show me.


The private sector pays for the public sector? What a terribly partial way of putting it. Do public servants not pay tax just like everyone else?

No, they are paid from the exchequer.
Do you not understand where the exchequer gets its money?


Do private enterprises not receive grants and funding from the public purse?

Indeed - such as Enterprise Ireland's "employment subsidy scheme".
What does that have to do with anything?


There'll be paycuts alright. I don't reckon there's much the unions can do about but it is the inaliable right of public sector workers (or any workers for that matter) to strike when their conditions are being undermined without meaningful negotiation.


They're entitled to strike, its their right.
The public will hate them for it tho.
Digging their own grave.

[SuperHans]

^^
All anecdotal. bla bla drone waffle

Give me some facts, Some verifiable evidence, as I've given you.
You can leave the opinion piece at home

2009 Salary Survey from Premier

http://www.premier.ie/salarysurvey/Group_Salary.pdf

[ManielMan]

Well by the looks of things some of your "facts" were bogus...


Fine, then show me the evidence to contradict it.


And in any event, I gave you facts. Basic is 32K not 35K and nearly half of all Pubsec workers are earning either below the average industrial wage or only slightly above it.

Unless you give me a link or a source to verify it, then thats an opinion.

Thats the problem with the teachers, they're living in a fantasy world.
This has all become normalized.

They think everyone who isn't in the public sector is a millionaire, despite the fact that they have been in the primary beneficiary group.

[ManielMan]

2009 Salary Survey from Premier

http://www.premier.ie/salarysurvey/Group_Salary.pdf

You're link doesn't work.

And its a bit of a needle in a haystack.

Am I supposed to prove a fallacy myself using your evidence?
Care to construct a debate or an opposing argument?

[BangorFeen]

Absolutely I think they should not strike.
This country is on the brink of collapse, IMF style.
See the McCarthy Report Page 14.
Contradict with evidence please.



Nonsense. They are either unskilled or high risk.
If they are unskilled, they are not high paid. (shelf stacker)
If they are high risk, you are compensated for risk. (fireman)




I've already provided the basic common scale.
You're ignoring allowances.

Where are the facts? Where is the proof? Show me.


No, they are paid from the exchequer.
Do you not understand where the exchequer gets its money?


Indeed - such as Enterprise Ireland's "employment subsidy scheme".
What does that have to do with anything?



They're entitled to strike, its their right.
The public will hate them for it tho.
Digging their own grave.
Any comment on the monster jobs then?

The exchequer gets its money from all sorts of places. One of those places is the tax receipts of all shapes and sizes from public sector workers.

As for my point re grants and incentives, it's not all a one-way street from the pockets of the private sector, if it ever was to start with.

The public will hate us? Some will I'm sure. IBEC/ISME and etc. do already so no loss there. Members of the public sector have wives, children and friends too. I rather doubt most of them will hate us for putting down a marker. After all, that's all it will be. Come December, my payslip will be meaner, possibly by some margin than it is now.

[longbigandjuicy]

Even the kids are asking questions and are horrified about all the teachers not turning up for class
http://www.hltmag.co.uk/sep06/joke_image02.gif

[BangorFeen]

That depends on a number of variables(experience , credentials etc). Starting off -- no more than 22.5 k. The maximum, considering their generous holiday time --37k.

No teacher should trouser 65k, that's for sure!
So starting out at nearly half the average industrial wage rising to a level that's just about tipping it? Have fun staffing an education service with candidates. Let me know how it goes. What graduate these days gets that sort of money?

[BangorFeen]

So you are a teacher?:rolleyes: Nice to see dishonesty is still omnipresent in teachers these days!:rolleyes:
Nope, public servant but not a teacher

[ManielMan]

Any comment on the monster jobs then?


Yes, I have a comment.

First, where did you get the pay scales?
Did you make them up:rolleyes:, they are not listed on the job spec. (merely an individual job at an individual company, which is about as conclusive as saying one monkey is purple, therefore all monkey are purple.)

Secondly, the first job was renumerated at 60k.
He would be wise to move into the ESB, where he can make substantially more for Utitlies (as listed on my pay graph on the previous page).
See that Utilities are among the best earning group. (hence why our electricity is so expensive)

Lastly, there is a massive difference between a teacher and an engineer.
But I believe you already know this, given that you are a teacher.


You have not refuted one single point of evidence I have provided, nor provided evidence for your own assertions/fallacies.
Would you care to?

[SuperHans]

You're link doesn't work.

And its a bit of a needle in a haystack.

Am I supposed to prove a fallacy myself using your evidence?
Care to construct a debate or an opposing argument?

http://www.premier.ie/

Bottom of front page.

[ManielMan]

So starting out at nearly half the average industrial wage rising to a level that's just about tipping it? Have fun staffing an education service with candidates. Let me know how it goes.


The Average industrial wage was €35,000 per annum.

Most temporary teachers would jump at the chance.
Why do you think they are still in the job?

Because when the cuts come in, many teachers will retire (as is happening with the gardai, more have retired this year than in the last 5 combined) due to pension taxes etc.



What graduate these days gets that sort of money?

Nowadays, graduates get no jobs.
33% of all males under 25 are unemployed. 48,000 will emigrate this year.

Further, the job losses in the private sector have been at a rate of about 10%
In the public it has been 0.45% (the .45 accounting for temps).


Believe me, I have no vile hatred for public sector workers.
I just think teachers are overpaid and they are incredibly selfish to do this, when the country is about to collapse.

[ManielMan]

http://www.premier.ie/

Bottom of front page.

Is this a game?
Am I supposed to figure it out for myself?

What exactly is your point?:confused:

[BangorFeen]

Yes, I have a comment.

First, where did you get the pay scales?
Did you make them up:rolleyes:, they are not listed on the job spec. (merely an individual job at an individual company, which is about as conclusive as saying one monkey is purple, therefore all monkey are purple.)

Secondly, the first job was renumerated at 60k.
He would be wise to move into the ESB, where he can make substantially more for Utitlies (as listed on my pay graph on the previous page).
See that Utilities are among the best earning group. (hence why our electricity is so expensive)

Lastly, there is a massive difference between a teacher and an engineer.
But I believe you already know this, given that you are a teacher.


You have not refuted one single point of evidence I have provided, nor provided evidence for your own assertions/fallacies.
Would you care to?
Not a teacher. Wouldn't have their job for all the tea in China.

PS - link to scales here (http://www.education.ie/servlet/blobservlet/cl0106_2008rates.doc )

The pay indications provided would imply that there are a not inconsiderable number of jobs out there in science disciplines that pay somewhat more than €35K with five years experience.

[Rebel CNC]

Not a teacher but figures are being bandied around without much regard to reality. Several people have contributed already with the point that the 64K figure you refer to being at the upper end of the scale. It's not representative of Joe Teacher.

According the to DoE, basic starting pay is €32K, not €35K. That's considerably less than the average industrial wage.

.


Starting salary is actually €32,599 plus €5,177 = €37,776. How many graduates are even close to this level?
See below for common basic scale - you move up one point on the scale every year, be you a brilliant, inspiring educator or lazy, timeserving piece of deadwood.

Essentially by your mid 30s you have €53,239 basic plus €5,177 for having a degree (which every teacher has to have anyway) plus any other allowances or "incremental credits" you pick up along the way. See second link for more info on these.

http://www.into.ie/ROI/InformationforTeache rs/Salaries/CommonBasicScale/

and

http://www.into.ie/ROI/InformationforTeache rs/

Teachers deserve a decent salary but they could certainly take a 5% to 10% pay cut at every level or else just get rid of the €5,177k allowance for having a degree.

[ManielMan]

Not a teacher. Wouldn't have their job for all the tea in China.


That is your opinion and you are entitled to it, I don't begrudge you.
For the record, I'm sure there are some teachers who are worth €64,000 per year, because I had a few.
On the other hand, there are plenty who are worth considerably less, but receive it anyway, in spite of much lower paid temporary teachers.
Our system needs urgent reform.

But how do you suggest we deal with this?


Here are the facts:
1) The Public sector wage bill is about 65% of Government expenditure

2) Government income is less than Government expenditure

3) The government can't keep borrowing to make up the shortfall.

4) The Private sector which pays for the public sector is in recession

5) They can't keep increasing taxes on the private sector, taxing a damaged economy has been to reduce economic activity, not increase it.

Therefore, teachers have no moral right to be striking and putting the entire country in jeopardy.


How do you suggest we generate €19.8 Billion for PS wages and €21.3 billion for social welfare, so that cuts are not necessary?

The fact remains, there is only one way to do it.
And that is through cuts.

[BangorFeen]

Starting salary is actually €32,599 plus €5,177 = €37,776. How many graduates are even close to this level?
See below for common basic scale - you move up one point on the scale every year, be you a brilliant, inspiring educator or lazy, timeserving piece of deadwood.

Essentially by your mid 30s you have €53,239 basic plus €5,177 for having a degree (which every teacher has to have anyway) plus any other allowances or "incremental credits" you pick up along the way. See second link for more info on these.

http://www.into.ie/ROI/InformationforTeache rs/Salaries/CommonBasicScale/

and

http://www.into.ie/ROI/InformationforTeache rs/

Teachers deserve a decent salary but they could certainly take a 5% to 10% pay cut at every level or else just get rid of the €5,177k allowance for having a degree.
Don't worry, they'll be getting one. Expecting people not to object to that through the well-established mechanisms of industrial action is mad though. You can say whatever you like about the pension levy but a pension is shag-all use for paying the mortgage now. That's 7.5% on average pluys another 7.5% most likely in December. If that's not grounds for a legitimate one day strike then would you kindly tell me what is?

[BangorFeen]

Ok, let me just say how pleased I am your exorbitant salary( considering how underworked public sector workers are) is about to be considerably slashed.:bday:
You're a wum. What you say doesn't bother me much.

[BangorFeen]

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it, I don't begrudge you.
For the record, I'm sure there are some teachers who are worth €64,000 per year, because I had a few.
On the other hand, there are plenty who are worth considerably less, but receive it anyway, in spite of much lower paid temporary teachers.
Our system needs urgent reform.

But how do you suggest we deal with this?



How do you suggest we generate €19.8 Billion for PS wages and €21.3 billion for social welfare, so that cuts are not necessary?

The fact remains, there is only one way to do it.
And that is through cuts.
I don't doubt that there are time-servers. They're present in the private sector too. Removing them surgically from the public sector would be just as hard.

I don't claim to have the answers on the exchequer and cuts will feature as part of it; that's not up for debate really; what galls me is that people seem to think that the public sector should shut up and eat their spuds over a considerable diminuation in their pay and conditions. Now, I'm sure the unions and the government will continue working to rescue something but I'd say the mood for compromise is non-existant.

I do rather hope though that after making 350K people considerably poorer that this government goes after the super-rich, tax exiles and the like. I won't hold my breath though.

[ManielMan]

I would wager most private sector time-servers have already been slashed, given the job losses figure, but that's a side issue. The country doesn't pay them, they pay the country, so if the company go bankrupt, thats their own problem. There'll be no IMF and the company owner isn't entitled to Social welfare either.
So thats his/her own responsibility.
Further taxes are inevitable anyway. The December budget will be deflationary to a level of €4 billion.


I disagree with the cuts not being up for debate. I have nothing against PS workers, some of my relatives are in the PS, to me and most of the public I expect, the cuts are the core issue. I don't want to see underpaid clerical officers and temporary teachers taking the pain, it should be the ones who can afford to take it i.e. the permanent teachers on exorbitant incomes and a galling sense of entitlement.

I agree with your last point.
You can't tax the super rich tho, they are so mobile, they'll just move elsewhere which actually costs us money. Better to get something than nothing.
Its been tried a million times. U2 in Holland, JP McManus in Switzerland

But this infuriates me even more, the banks got their 3%, the TDs are saying nothing about their salaries/expenses. But this is exactly why the unions SHOULD be calling strike action.
They've led a silly campaign based on their own greed and now they are the targets.
They should have led a campaign based on the lack of reform elsewhere.

Children are the collateral damage (I don't have any) which just unites the public against them, they've made themselves the target of public anger.

All Cowen needs to say is: the teachers won't take a cut, so we need to slash social welfare, child benefit and increases taxes.

The result of that scenario is: Job losses, emigration and riots in the streets.

Finally, I don't believe the unions will reach any compromise. Union leaders are mostly private sector, paid from Trade union fees of the public sector workers.
They are the ones who are truely creaming it, and they don't give a sh1te either way.

[BangorFeen]

I would wager most private sector time-servers have already been slashed, given the job losses figure, but that's a side issue. The country doesn't pay them, they pay the country, so if the company go bankrupt, thats their own problem. There'll be no IMF and the company owner isn't entitled to Social welfare either.
So thats his/her own responsibility.
Further taxes are inevitable anyway. The December budget will be deflationary to a level of €4 billion.


I disagree with the cuts not being up for debate. I have nothing against PS workers, some of my relatives are in the PS, to me and most of the public I expect, the cuts are the core issue. I don't want to see underpaid clerical officers and temporary teachers taking the pain, it should be the ones who can afford to take it i.e. the permanent teachers on exorbitant incomes and a galling sense of entitlement.

I agree with your last point.
You can't tax the super rich tho, they are so mobile, they'll just move elsewhere which actually costs us money. Better to get something than nothing.
Its been tried a million times. U2 in Holland, JP McManus in Switzerland

But this infuriates me even more, the banks got their 3%, the TDs are saying nothing about their salaries/expenses. But this is exactly why the unions SHOULD be calling strike action.
They've led a silly campaign based on their own greed and now they are the targets.
They should have led a campaign based on the lack of reform elsewhere.

Children are the collateral damage (I don't have any) which just unites the public against them, they've made themselves the target of public anger.

All Cowen needs to say is: the teachers won't take a cut, so we need to slash social welfare, child benefit and increases taxes.

The result of that scenario is: Job losses, emigration and riots in the streets.

Finally, I don't believe the unions will reach any compromise. Union leaders are mostly private sector, paid from Trade union fees of the public sector workers.
They are the ones who are truely creaming it, and they don't give a sh1te either way.
You see I fundamentally disagree with this notion. All taxpayers pay the country and to a certain extent I do find it irritating that the tenor of some of the debate is that anyone from the private sector has a right to act like my boss.

Underpaid clerical officers and the like is exactly what you're going to see because this government with the way they implemeneted the pension levy have shown that they don't do creative and/or rigourous thinking when drafting laws. Not that union thinking is much better. I reckon that after, what? 15 years when unions were either not required to test themselves much or atrophied in the face of decidedly union unfriendly FDI they've suddenly realised that their membership is for the first time in a generation demanding that they do something and a strike is the easiest visible tool of mobilisation and getting tough.

[Rebel CNC]

You can say whatever you like about the pension levy but a pension is shag-all use for paying the mortgage now. That's 7.5% on average pluys another 7.5% most likely in December. If that's not grounds for a legitimate one day strike then would you kindly tell me what is?

Fair point although with inflation running at -6% and interest rates looking likely to remain at record low levels for at least another year, anyone with a secure, pensionable job is at least as well off as they were last year.

They are perfectly entitled to strike but won't be getting much sympathy from those who have been hammered with complete loss of income or big pay cuts in last 12-18 months.

Of course a lot of the pain could be avoided if the unions engaged witht the government in getting rid of the time servers, the lazy and plain incompetent teachers, nurses, guards, etc and in modernising decades old work practices.

There are of course wasters in the private sector as well but generally they get found out and discarded fairly quickly or at least they remain at low level of responsibility and pay.
If they don't the company suffers and will fail if there are too many dullards promoted above their ability.

In the public sector, the workshy, perma-sick mallingerer will follow the same pay scale as his or her ultra-hard working, dedicated and commited colleague.

[BangorFeen]

Fair point although with inflation running at -6% and interest rates looking likely to remain at record low levels for at least another year, anyone with a secure, pensionable job is at least as well off as they were last year.

They are perfectly entitled to strike but won't be getting much sympathy from those who have been hammered with complete loss of income or big pay cuts in last 12-18 months.

Of course a lot of the pain could be avoided if the unions engaged witht the government in getting rid of the time servers, the lazy and plain incompetent teachers, nurses, guards, etc and in modernising decades old work practices.

There are of course wasters in the private sector as well but generally they get found out and discarded fairly quickly or at least they remain at low level of responsibility and pay.
If they don't the company suffers and will fail if there are too many dullards promoted above their ability.

In the public sector, the workshy, perma-sick mallingerer will follow the same pay scale as his or her ultra-hard working, dedicated and commited colleague.
How do you make that out? 15% -6% leaves a 9% hole. That's every pay deal between now and about 2004 blown out of the water even allowing for deflation. Low interest rates are likewise useless to those of us who fixed their mortgage rates when the trend in 2006 was definitively upwards. Some of those peole who've had their wages cut/lost their jobs are the spouses of public servants. This does nothing other than depress household income further still. This is not a panacea and I'm morbidly interested to see what real-world savings this delivers for the long term resentment it's going to breed.

How do you get rid of time servers? What barometer do you use to identify them? How do you prevent victimisation? As for the private sector; some are gone by redundancy sure but then so are countless hard workers. It's not as if there was any degree of discrimination. Low level of responsibility and pay? I refer you to the extraordinarily well remunerated board of Anglo-Irish Bank... Sure the company failed but it's a failure that hardly has ramifications solely for those whose venality brought it to pass.

[Hang_Sandwich]

the market determines the salary, simple

if you have 1 million qualified medicial consultants then consultants wouldn't get 1/4 mil per year.

64k in this country wouldn't be a whole lot if you were supporting a family off it.

problems in this country are home grown, and ALL down the fucking house prices, house prices increased so wages had to (a person with a job should be able to afford a home after all) - when house prices when up everyone was sitting on assets to retailers jacked everything up and so on and so forth - the salaries reflect what had to be paid to get people to work as a teacher - lets not forget about 100k plus plasterers who were employees etc...

Reducing terms of employees is not easy to do, nor should it be. Also would you take ahit if you didn't have to? if you would you'd be a fool. if the contact is excessive then the employer shouldn't have offered it in the first place. and certainly should not do so in future

[Rebel CNC]

How do you make that out? 15% -6% leaves a 9% hole. That's every pay deal between now and about 2004 blown out of the water even allowing for deflation. .................
How do you get rid of time servers? What barometer do you use to identify them? How do you prevent victimisation? .

15%??? FF have not implemented any pay cut yet and knowing how useless Biffo is at making decisions, I'd not put any bets on yet.
Also, remember the pension levy is tax deductible so for example an assistant principal employed since 1995 and earning €69,659 will face a levy of €5,712. At first sight, that amounts to an 8.2 per cent cut in pay. However, when the impact of tax relief is taken into account, the real hit to earnings is just €3,239, or 4.6 per cent of take-home pay. See INTO website


http://www.into.ie/ROI/Publications/OtherPublications/Forum/Archive/Forum_Feb09.pdf

Not sure how you get rid of time servers in public sector. How does Musgraves, Heineken or Pfizer do it? Put procedures and performance targets in place.
Wouldn't be easy but I'd prefer to see useless teachers, nurses etc being fired to achieve savings rather than all of them being hit with an across the board pay cut.

[SuperHans]

15%??? FF have not implemented any pay cut yet and knowing how useless Biffo is at making decisions, I'd not put any bets on yet.
Also, remember the pension levy is tax deductible so for example an assistant principal employed since 1995 and earning €69,659 will face a levy of €5,712. At first sight, that amounts to an 8.2 per cent cut in pay. However, when the impact of tax relief is taken into account, the real hit to earnings is just €3,239, or 4.6 per cent of take-home pay. See INTO website


http://www.into.ie/ROI/Publications/OtherPublications/Forum/Archive/Forum_Feb09.pdf

Not sure how you get rid of time servers in public sector. How does Musgraves, Heineken or Pfizer do it? Put procedures and performance targets in place.
Wouldn't be easy but I'd prefer to see useless teachers, nurses etc being fired to achieve savings rather than all of them being hit with an across the board pay cut.

Not exactly the best examples there of companies that eliminate time servers :rolleyes:

[ManielMan]

Not exactly the best examples there of companies that eliminate time servers :rolleyes:

Regardless of your opinion of those companies, his point is still logically and ethically correct - there is little in the way of a meritocracy.

Decent, hard working public servants should not be taking it in the neck at the expense of the dead weight.

No doubt the forthcoming changes will help to clear out some of the dead weight and give hard working, enthusiastic temps a chance. But this whole scenario is doomed to repeat itself, as it has done, unless some real reform is implemented.

The banks are a typical example of this.
The point is, there are relatively minor reforms which can be made to yield major results. They should be taken in the short term.

[Mossybanks]

We have just over 4 million people here.

We have 166 TD's, 80 Senators, and 1,800 local councillors.

I think we should have 100 TD's no senators, and 900 local councillors.

The Senate could be replaced by the Council of State, chaired by her excellency the President.

At least the president is elected by the people directly.


Also, why do we need a "department of the gaeltacht, rural and community affairs?"

We already have Udaras Na Gaeltachta, and the Department Of Agriculture.

Why do we need a department of Arts, Sports And Tourism? We could put tourism in with Enterprise, and we already have a Sports Council and an Arts Council, so why do we need a fully staffed department complete with minister and ministerial expenses?

Expenses like these: THE Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism and three officials ran up a hotel bill of €33,000 during a €67,657 trip to Beijing for the Olympics last summer.

Martin Cullen, his private secretary, a senior official and his press adviser stayed in the five-star China World Hotel, the Ascott Hotel in Beijing and the Island Shangri-La hotel in Hong Kong for 19 nights -- averaging €435 per person per night.

On top of their hotel costs, the minister and his officials also collected a generous civil service subsistence allowance to cover the cost of their meals which came to €10,381 -- or an average of €2,500 per person.

The grand total of the minister's presence at the Olympic Games came to €67,657, including €2,000 on the cost of car hire to whisk them around the Olympic cities, €17,000 on return flights to China and another €5,016 on internal flights while there.

The minister's first-class travel caused controversy during the Games last Summer when one athlete complained that he sat in economy while Mr Cullen bedded down in a first class seat in his pyjamas.

[Mossybanks]

Nepotism rears it's ugly head:

Mr Cullen's most costly hire is his special adviser, Michelle Hoctor. A sister of Minister of State Maire Hoctor, Michelle earns €94,024.50 annually.


She was one of the advisers who flew to Beijing for the Olympics by the way, and is officially classified as his "press secretary."

[Rebel CNC]

Not exactly the best examples there of companies that eliminate time servers :rolleyes:

Perhaps not but they won't promote all employees along a common pay scale irrespective of their performance.
If you want to work a junior lab technician at Pfizer at a junior lab technicians wage for 10 years, they'll allow you to do so but you certainly won't get offered senior position or put on their management training programme.
Same applies to warehouse worker at Heineken or truck driver at Musgraves.

As other poster says, there are plenty of savings and improvements to work practices that could be made which could negate the need for paycuts, levys, etc.

For instance, why do we need practically twice as many nurses per 1000 population as France or Germany which both have public health services far superior to our own.
ICTU loved quoting OECD reports in benchmarking process - here is one they tended to avoid.

http://www.euphix.org/object_document/o5173n27416.html


People talk about frontline services but waste in frontline services is still waste.
Get rid of the malingerers and perma-sick and the work practices from the 1950s, and allow the dedicated hard working employees (who constitute the majority) to provide a decent, professional service on their existing pay.

[ManielMan]

The average male teacher is on €64,000 a year?!?!?!?
I can't believe that.
My mother was on that as a VP of a school and after nearly 40 years teaching.
I'd have thought they'd have pretty much topped out at something like that.
nah, not buying it.

I got a teacher to explain it to me herself last night in more detail

You can see on the TUI website, there are 25 levels on a secondary teachers salary scale.
http://www.tui.ie/Salary_Scales/Default.286.html

So its a fair assumption to say that levels 12-13 would be the average teacher especially as there are a lot of teachers countrywide. (A lot teachers start on point 3 in the scale, so a 31 year old would now be on level 13)

Basic salary of a level 13 teacher : €51,297.
H-Dip allowance (Pre-req): €1,299
Primary degree allowance (Pre-req): €5,177
==================== ====================
Total: €57,773 for an average bottom rung teacher

Note the above already equates to the average female salary,
but then you must add the following:


Exam supervision fees
Exam correction fees
Study supervision
Masters degrees
Various heads of years and class departments,
==================== ================
Total: Difficult to quantify, but we've all been to school so you get the point.


She also explained to me, that the reason they try to take on a surprisingly large amount of temporary teachers in so many different schools, is because this helps to "depress" the wage average.

I.e. If you have 20 teachers earning €70k and a principal earning €90k, then the average wage is €71k.
BUT
If you have 20 teachers earning 70k and a principal earning €90k, and you have 5 new temps earning €37k, then the average is €64k


So when INTO give €64k as an average, that is a manipulated and depressed average.
To take the real average for (permanent only) Teachers, you might be talking up to around €70-75k per annum.

To be honest, I don't want to teach at all, but there is no way I'll ever see money like that in my career (not to mind those holidays!), so I've started thinking about joining up myself:mrgreen:

[How bad boy]

Have a look at monster.com. Plenty of jobs there to contradict your theory.

http://jobview.monster.ie/Polymer-Engineer-Job-Limerick-Limerick-Ireland-84637753.aspx (60K base, 7 years exp)


http://jobview.monster.ie/Quality-Engineer-Job-Galway-Galway-Ireland-84403992.aspx (35-55k, 2 years exp)

http://jobview.monster.ie/COMPUTER-SYSTEMS-VALIDATION-ENGINEER-Job-DUBLIN-Dublin-Ireland-80609304.aspx (45-60K , 3 years exp)

http://jobview.monster.ie/Lean-Manufacturing-Engineer-%E2%80%93-Galway-based-Job-Galway-Galway-Ireland-84383180.aspx (50-60K, 5 years exp)
You're comparing specialist engineering roles to that of teachers?

Unlike teachers, engineers have to start specialising from the age of 18 onwards.
I have a number of friends that have gone from engineering to teaching.

I have never, ever heard of anyone going the other way.

[SuperHans]

You're comparing specialist engineering roles to that of teachers?

Unlike teachers, engineers have to start specialising from the age of 18 onwards.
I have a number of friends that have gone from engineering to teaching.

I have never, ever heard of anyone going the other way.

No.

He said that nobody from a science background is earning anywhere near 64K even 10 years after graduation. I just showed some examples of people earning those (or close to those) kinds of figures with 2 - 5 years experience.

My point is, that (teaching + 25 years experience => 64K) = not a lot of money for someone close to 50, and private sector wages are generally as high and often higher.

Yes, public sector workers should take a pay cut, but the notion that they are all earning huge sums is a myth so this government can deflect attention from the mistake they have made and make a scapegoat of someone other than the true culprits (govt + developers + banks).

Efficiency, cutting out all the uncertified sick days etc. should also go hand in hand with whatever measures are intorduced. Now is the time to do it.

[How bad boy]

No.

He said that nobody from a science background is earning anywhere near 64K even 10 years after graduation. I just showed some examples of people earning those (or close to those) kinds of figures with 2 - 5 years experience.

My point is, that (teaching + 25 years experience => 64K) = not a lot of money for someone close to 50, and private sector wages are generally as high and often higher.

Yes, public sector workers should take a pay cut, but the notion that they are all earning huge sums is a myth so this government can deflect attention from the mistake they have made and make a scapegoat of someone other than the true culprits (govt + developers + banks).

Efficiency, cutting out all the uncertified sick days etc. should also go hand in hand with whatever measures are intorduced. Now is the time to do it.
Besides the fact that those are all engineering, not science roles, I see where you're coming from. Admittedly, as someone with 7 years experience in engineering, I'm surprised the salaries are so high in Ireland, those you quoted are way, way higher than they used to be.

You're worng in saying €64k is not a lot of money for someone with 25 years experience though. If the average industrial salary in Ireland is €33k (http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1012697.shtm l), then nobody earning almost double that has a right to complain much about their pay.

Certainly going on strike over cuts to it is, to my eyes, petulant. Especially when there's virtually no accountability attached to the role and pay is based upon years of service, not quality of work or ability.


I am in favour of pay cuts to civil servants earning these levels of pay, the evidence shows that savings rates rise rapidly as salaries go above average industrial wage, so cutting the pay of highly paid civil servants is unlikely to greatly depress demand for goods and services in the greater economy.

[ManielMan]

No.

He said that nobody from a science background is earning anywhere near 64K even 10 years after graduation. I just showed some examples of people earning those (or close to those) kinds of figures with 2 - 5 years experience.

My point is, that (teaching + 25 years experience => 64K) = not a lot of money for someone close to 50, and private sector wages are generally as high and often higher.


Thats not what I said. I said, and I quote:

Nelson Maniella said:
What sort of job doesn't have a 4 year degree pre-req these days?

After 5 years in any of the Science fields, you're looking at €35k MAX and everybody has taken massive paycuts.

The greedy fat cat teachers START OFF on 35k, and they go on strike when they're earning 65k and have to take a paycut.

Feel free to contradict anything I said with verifiable evidence.


All you have done is given an individual advertisement for an individual company. (Most of these job advertisements aren't even real, its just job recruitment agencies trying to figure out whats available, there was a thread on boards.ie about it recently).

Your reasoning is thus:
Everyone who eats steak is a bodybuilder.
John eats steak.
[Therefore,] John is a bodybuilder.

Your reasoning is not sound.

As I have proven with facts and figures, this is not the case in the public sector. The argument I have supplied is valid and the premise is true.



Yes, public sector workers should take a pay cut, but the notion that they are all earning huge sums is a myth so this government can deflect attention from the mistake they have made and make a scapegoat of someone other than the true culprits (govt + developers + banks).

Efficiency, cutting out all the uncertified sick days etc. should also go hand in hand with whatever measures are intorduced. Now is the time to do it.

I agree.
My only dispute is the 'deflection' argument.
I don't believe this government are capable of doing it.
Every time Mary Coughlan opens her mouth, she incriminates the whole party e.g. Rody Molloy incident.

[poulgorm]

We have 120,000 farmers in this country. The department of agriculture has 6,000 staff. One for every 20 farmers.

Compare this with other other organisations - take a semi state organisation - Bord Gais. They has 500,000 customers. Using a one in 20 ratio, they should have 25,000 staff.

They have 800.

It's not just overpayment we have to deal with, it is also chronic over staffing.

We need cutbacks in the numbers employed, more than we need pay cuts

[diar2me]

We have 120,000 farmers in this country. The department of agriculture has 6,000 staff. One for every 20 farmers.

Compare this with other other organisations - take a semi state organisation - Bord Gais. They has 500,000 customers. Using a one in 20 ratio, they should have 25,000 staff.

They have 800.

It's not just overpayment we have to deal with, it is also chronic over staffing.

We need cutbacks in the numbers employed, more than we need pay cuts

Well said. Get outta yer insulated little world Public employees!

[longbigandjuicy]

We have 120,000 farmers in this country. The department of agriculture has 6,000 staff. One for every 20 farmers.

Compare this with other other organisations - take a semi state organisation - Bord Gais. They has 500,000 customers. Using a one in 20 ratio, they should have 25,000 staff.

They have 800.

It's not just overpayment we have to deal with, it is also chronic over staffing.

We need cutbacks in the numbers employed, more than we need pay cuts

6000 staff for how many animals in Ireland??

[ManielMan]

We have 120,000 farmers in this country. The department of agriculture has 6,000 staff. One for every 20 farmers.

Compare this with other other organisations - take a semi state organisation - Bord Gais. They has 500,000 customers. Using a one in 20 ratio, they should have 25,000 staff.

They have 800.

It's not just overpayment we have to deal with, it is also chronic over staffing.

We need cutbacks in the numbers employed, more than we need pay cuts

The government don't actually need to fire people tho.
If they reform the pay scales, they would actually be able to hire extra people.

There is no sense in having 1000 kings, when you could have 4000 princes for the same amount.

[poulgorm]

6000 staff for how many animals in Ireland??

I don't know how many animals are in this country - what is the population of Kerry ?

[Rebel CNC]

There is no sense in having 1000 kings, when you could have 4000 princes for the same amount.


Fair point but why have 4,000 princes when 3,000 could service the workload.

Look at ther French healthcare system - generally regarded as one of the best in the world and yet they get by with half the number of nurses we have (per 1,000 population).

http://www.euphix.org/object_document/o5173n27416.html

Is it something to do with old Irish attitude of nurses being "tender, dedicated, angels of mercy" whose only priority is the wellbeing of the poor patient"?

[Gnasher]

Teachers deserve every cent they get.

How can anyone attack any teacher, if it wasnt for teachers none of you would be able to talk, read or write.

I would go one step futher and pay them more money so that they can fully spread thier wisdom and courage.

[irishmonkey]

64 000
4 months off
half day every Wednesday.

poor old sods
and as for spreading wisdom.
like any job there are ones that are worth the money because they really are fantastic teachers.

there are average teachers that are not worth 64000

and teachers that don't give a crap and are just happy they cant get fired!

[Gnasher]

64 000
4 months off
half day every Wednesday.

poor old sods
and as for spreading wisdom.
like any job there are ones that are worth the money because they really are fantastic teachers.

there are average teachers that are not worth 64000

and teachers that don't give a crap and are just happy they cant get fired!

If its such a great job then why dont you do it?

Its a nonsense to suggest they are overpaid.

[chabal]

Not knocking teachers here, as I think most of them do a fine job. In fact I would think a lot of them go into the teaching profession as a vocation, rather than to earn a living.

get to fuck... most of them cunts wouldn't know a proper days work unless its earning extra money on another job in the summer holidays

[rubbish mouth breath]

those teachers deserve what they get.. taking from them is bad..

[irishmonkey]

If its such a great job then why dont you do it?

Its a nonsense to suggest they are overpaid.

cos I'm a techie
not something that's thought in schools ( as an exam subject)
and quite frankly id be a shit teacher.
same way id be a shit doctor, politician, manager, etc,etc


ps i also said the good ones are worth every penny.
the ones i have an issue with are the shit ones. the ones that cant teach to save there life.
I had a chemistry teacher that would just read from the book underlining crap saying learn that off!!!
any questions the answer was always "you don't need to know that"
thats not education.

[Tim the Enchanter]

Hi. First time posting here (first time posting anywhere, actually) but having reading a lot of these posts, I felt compelled to reply. It's going to be a long one, Ive a lot of frustration pent up so apologies in advance...

Ok, Im a teacher. I know, I know, knives and pitchforks etc etc. However, so that I wont be scared to tell people what I do for a living any more (as I am when I read some of the comments on here) can I just make a few coments?

I am not a money grabbing, picket organising, child abusing member of society (no matter what you say). I like my job and I am good at it. I am damn good at it. Thats the results taking, not the ego. However, will I be able to remain in teaching? Nope, not for much longer.

This year, because of the cutbacks, my hours were slashed from 18 per week, down to 8. Bye bye half my salary, but at least I still have one, right? Had to move back home but thems the breaks. I didn't mind the pension levy as I felt it might go to creating jobs. Has it? Nope.

Now, those who teach will know the amount of prep that goes into a class. They don't have set textbooks for my class (disadvantaged school and the budget to provide them has been cut) therefore, everything I do in class has to be made out in powerpoint or handouts for them. Approx time to prepare a 40 mins class? About 1 1/2 hours. So I work hard for my salary. Also, as I am not on contract, Im not paid for my hols. 4 months off isn't much good then, Irishmonkey, is it?

Ok, I only have 8 hours this year, should have loads of time to prepare. Ah, not quite. Due to the cuts my classes have been amalgamated and in my JC English class I have 27 students, some quite capable of getting an A in HL, some who will get a C at HL, same for ordinary level, Ive some for foundation lever, one who wont sit the exam because he has the reading age of an 8 year old and Ive 2 who cant speak English, at all. All in the one class. This involves making out 3 sets of handouts and worksheets to keep them learning and busy.

Is this necessary? Oh yes, I made the mistake one day of trying to use one set of handouts for the whole class. One of my little angels set fire to them and told me in the most 'polite' terms what I could do with my notes. Parents refused to believe it so he's still coming to my class, sneering away every time he walks past. Can't send them home. Our hands are tied. Do you get that in your private sector jobs??

Unfortunately, what Ive said above is the story for a hell of a lot of teachers out there.

Do I agree with the strike, nope. Did I vote against it? Yes. I belive in the honey not vinegar theory but of course my esteened union don't.

I know it sounds like Im moaning but Im not. I know that I am damn lucky to even have a job at all and I, along with a lot of other teachers, just want to do my job to the best of my ability so that THESE kids can have some sort of a decent future.

It would be nice to do that without being condemned and vilified at every turn.

Rant over (finally).

[townendterrace]

for doing what comes naturally to them, looking after kids :):lol!::lol!:

[Jinky]

http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/3451/tim.jpg (http://img692.imageshack.us/i/tim.jpg/)



Tim is a diligent student, works hard but likes to talk. Needs to pay more attention in class.

[Jinky]

I missed a few more myself to be fair

[Tim the Enchanter]

I gotta say I've been called a lot of things in my life but self-centred is a new one. All I seem to read about on PROC is how the recession affects individuals. Forgive me for putting my case, and the case of numerous teachers, across. I do get defensive after reading several pages of comments on how teachers are runing the country.

If you had interpreted the post as I meant for it to be interpreted, all I was asking is that you do not paint every teacher with the same brush. Iit was not a critcism on the cuts, which in many cases are necessary. I was merely asking people to realise that teaching is not an easy job and to be subjected to this level of daily condemnation from people is not on.

But as you mentioned the bigger picture, can you please give me your thoughts on how further cuts to the education system will help the 'bigger picture'? Must admit, I have no interest in politics. I am interested in the students in front of me in the classroom and their future. Jeez, guess I am selfish. I can only see the effects these cuts are having on students today and wearing my Nostradamus hat, I feel if they keep cutting education, the next group of kids we send out into the workforce won't be able to tie their shoes.

As regards my spelling and grammer, I do apologise. Firstly, Im typing one handed, secondly, after reading 70 odd comments about how selfish I am, I'm a little pissed and finally, I didn't realise I was going to be corrected on it, this being a public forum where the standard of English is so bloody high. But I guess, Im a teacher so criticise away.

Huh, these public discussion forums are fun....

[Jinky]

Ah cmon Tim, I'm only messing. As a teacher you surely expected it. While you concede that cuts are needed, there's a sense of nimbyism about your post. Everywhere needs cuts, public AND private but you can surely concede that the public sector is more in need of a rejuvenation than elsewhere.

[ManielMan]

I gotta say I've been called a lot of things in my life but self-centred is a new one. All I seem to read about on PROC is how the recession affects individuals. Forgive me for putting my case, and the case of numerous teachers, across. I do get defensive after reading several pages of comments on how teachers are runing the country.

If you had interpreted the post as I meant for it to be interpreted, all I was asking is that you do not paint every teacher with the same brush. Iit was not a critcism on the cuts, which in many cases are necessary. I was merely asking people to realise that teaching is not an easy job and to be subjected to this level of daily condemnation from people is not on.

But as you mentioned the bigger picture, can you please give me your thoughts on how further cuts to the education system will help the 'bigger picture'? Must admit, I have no interest in politics. I am interested in the students in front of me in the classroom and their future. Jeez, guess I am selfish. I can only see the effects these cuts are having on students today and wearing my Nostradamus hat, I feel if they keep cutting education, the next group of kids we send out into the workforce won't be able to tie their shoes.

As regards my spelling and grammer, I do apologise. Firstly, Im typing one handed, secondly, after reading 70 odd comments about how selfish I am, I'm a little pissed and finally, I didn't realise I was going to be corrected on it, this being a public forum where the standard of English is so bloody high. But I guess, Im a teacher so criticise away.

Huh, these public discussion forums are fun....

Thanks for your post.
I think I've made it more than clear than I'm not in favour of people like yourself, who sound dedicated and hard working, taking it up the ass with a hot coal iron, so some old cnut who doesn't care about the job can take home 75k per year.

Can I ask you:
Why are you talking to US about it?
What have YOU done to change it?
WHO have you raised this issue with?
WHAT did your union have to say?
WHAT do other teachers have to say to you about your situation when you raise it with them?

p.s. do not misinterpret this as me attacking you; I am not.
I am genuinely curious however, why temp teachers feel its ok to take a severe dry pounding in the cake hole, for the benefit of their superiors, who are rewarded solely on seniority.
Its mind boggling.

Napoleon fcuking Bonaparte introduced Meritocracy in France, that was over 200 years ago.
The Potato republic still can't get it together tho.