Lisbon II

[Mr.Mister]

Friday the 2nd October 2009 is the date set for polling...

Also heard on the radio that Michael Martin hasn't ruled out a third referendum if this one is refused a second time.

Why don't they just give up?

[jd26]

Because the rules currently in place to run the EU are really strained now that there are 27 members.

Some reform is necessary.

If this fails, the need to reform won't go away.

[daithi81]

No 3rd referendum, the EU will just move on without us.

[Eoin]

No 3rd referendum, the EU will just move on without us.

exactly.

[asgard_gainsborough]

That's just showing us that Europe doesn't behave any longer as a democracy. I haven't read the second version of this, but I don't need to. My vote is just NO.
So, some *smart* people decided not to take into account everyone so they just went on with Lisbon but.. uh, oh, they have to ask us in here... big deal. So are they asking us until we say yes? What kind of democracy is that?

They have decided to do it. EU Constitution. If people say "no", they go with plan B, Lisbon. As they know what people will say, they give us a f***, and they are going to make us vote until we give the *right* answer for them...

That's sort of "OK, you can vote, but vote what I tell you to vote" So, at the end, we have to do what they want. Democracy? Where? They have already decided, they give a fu** about *real* europeans, they make the rules, they don't care about millions of people, this is a Europe without Europeans...

Democracy? C'mon, now tell me another joke. No matter how many times they ask, my vote is NO.

[An Rón Mór]

we don'the Eu!
apart from build our roads,
give us millions of euro
force us to pay women the same amount as men
facilate trade
intoduce a common currency

etc

what did they ever do for us?

[An Rón Mór]

we need to stay neutral. if our neighbours are attacked that's their problem. lf there is a conflict then we can sit on the fence and see what happens.its what we have always done. let europe sort out its own problems. its nothing to do with us.

[auch]

To say that euorope has givin us loads thats why we have to vote yes is bull.We've paid our dues.

Spanish fishermen, milk quotes, farmers being paid not to grow crops.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Yes to the idea of the EEC (trade and all that). No to the the EU and Lisbon.

Sovern goverments doing whats best for themselves cos thats all the big countries in the EU are doing anyway.

[Closer80]

Nah what we really need is Germany in a position with even more power over Europe.

[diar2me]

Vote Yes for God sake!

[jd26]

That's just showing us that Europe doesn't behave any longer as a democracy. I haven't read the second version of this, but I don't need to. My vote is just NO.
So, some *smart* people decided not to take into account everyone so they just went on with Lisbon but.. uh, oh, they have to ask us in here... big deal. So are they asking us until we say yes? What kind of democracy is that?

They have decided to do it. EU Constitution. If people say "no", they go with plan B, Lisbon. As they know what people will say, they give us a f***, and they are going to make us vote until we give the *right* answer for them...

That's sort of "OK, you can vote, but vote what I tell you to vote" So, at the end, we have to do what they want. Democracy? Where? They have already decided, they give a fu** about *real* europeans, they make the rules, they don't care about millions of people, this is a Europe without Europeans...

Democracy? C'mon, now tell me another joke. No matter how many times they ask, my vote is NO.

In the last referendum, the two leading No campaigners, Libertas and Sinn Fein, both said that the treaty should be sebt back for renegotiation.

So, the government commissioned surveys to find out why people had rejected Lisbon I.

The consequence is that the change to reduce the size of the commission has been scrapped (even though I personally think this is a bad idea, the people of Ireland don't), and there have been articles created to ensure that the wording around some areas (e.g. neutrality) is more watertight. So, it's not the same treaty being presented again. It's an altered treaty that takes into account what the people of Ireland said concerned them.

It's notable that some senior No campaigners (Naoise Nunn and David Cochrane) have switched to the Yes side. You could argue that this is more based on pragmatism (a realisation that we are one of 27 members and we can't define things only in our terms) than the contents of the treaty, but one way or another, people are now asking what's in Ireland's interests, rather than having jesuitical debates about the wording of articles.

Now, tell me, how would you reformulate the EU in a way that is better than Lisbon is? Do you actually think the current system administered under the rules of the Nice Treaty is preferable?

[Cliff Barnes]

we need to stay neutral. if our neighbours are attacked that's their problem. lf there is a conflict then we can sit on the fence and see what happens.its what we have always done. let europe sort out its own problems. its nothing to do with us.

Irelands neutrality is NOT affected.

No conscription or defence alliances.

[asgard_gainsborough]

In the last referendum, the two leading No campaigners, Libertas and Sinn Fein, both said that the treaty should be sebt back for renegotiation.

So, the government commissioned surveys to find out why people had rejected Lisbon I.

The consequence is that the change to reduce the size of the commission has been scrapped (even though I personally think this is a bad idea, the people of Ireland don't), and there have been articles created to ensure that the wording around some areas (e.g. neutrality) is more watertight. So, it's not the same treaty being presented again. It's an altered treaty that takes into account what the people of Ireland said concerned them.

It's notable that some senior No campaigners (Naoise Nunn and David Cochrane) have switched to the Yes side. You could argue that this is more based on pragmatism (a realisation that we are one of 27 members and we can't define things only in our terms) than the contents of the treaty, but one way or another, people are now asking what's in Ireland's interests, rather than having jesuitical debates about the wording of articles.

Now, tell me, how would you reformulate the EU in a way that is better than Lisbon is? Do you actually think the current system administered under the rules of the Nice Treaty is preferable?

Well, Lisbon is not being ratified in the whole UE again. This is not making major adjustments to the previous versions and everybody thinking again about it in the proper way. It's more just the first version again with some patches in order to make us happy enough. And that's just the way it shouldn't be! I am not happy with patches, I would prefer the whole thing revised from the beginning, which would of course involve all the EU sitting together again. Of course, this takes time, effort,... and governments cannot do it. I don't know if I make my point clear here. In short, I don't want a Lisbon v1.1.4, but a Lisbon v2.0

How would I reformulate EU better than with Lisbon? Well, first of all, permitting everyone to have something to say in there... As I said in my previous post, I don't consider democracy just to put Lisbon on the table. We citizens are the ones to decide if that's good for us or not. And I mean not only citizens in Ireland but in Europe. All countries. And not like when the EU was voted, but all countries in the same day. What are *they* afraid of? I remember, when voting the EU Constitution people saying "if we vote "no" and then the rest of UE votes "yes"... then... And I say, "then nothing, what the h***does it mean voting with caveats and co actioned?"

It's not that I think Lisbon 2nd version is bad... I am merely stating that it's done wrong from the very beginning. I don't think it's a treaty, but a "dictatorship pamphlet" if it is imposed to us (no matter what we vote, it'll be imposed in the rest of Europe!) I just would like a EU in which we citizens are actually listened, and our demands satisfied. What I have seen, until now is "Everything for Europe, but without Europe" which, at the end of the day, means "Let's fill our pockets as much as we can before they realize, now that we are still on time"

And sorry if I am wrong or you disagree. It's just my honest opinion.

[POL]

vote no for Irish freedom

[Cliff Barnes]

Vote YES for EU handouts.

[daithi81]

Vote NO to forced abortion through searing gas pain.

[jd26]

Well, Lisbon is not being ratified in the whole UE again. This is not making major adjustments to the previous versions and everybody thinking again about it in the proper way. It's more just the first version again with some patches in order to make us happy enough. And that's just the way it shouldn't be! I am not happy with patches, I would prefer the whole thing revised from the beginning, which would of course involve all the EU sitting together again. Of course, this takes time, effort,... and governments cannot do it. I don't know if I make my point clear here. In short, I don't want a Lisbon v1.1.4, but a Lisbon v2.0

How would I reformulate EU better than with Lisbon? Well, first of all, permitting everyone to have something to say in there... As I said in my previous post, I don't consider democracy just to put Lisbon on the table. We citizens are the ones to decide if that's good for us or not. And I mean not only citizens in Ireland but in Europe. All countries. And not like when the EU was voted, but all countries in the same day. What are *they* afraid of? I remember, when voting the EU Constitution people saying "if we vote "no" and then the rest of UE votes "yes"... then... And I say, "then nothing, what the h***does it mean voting with caveats and co actioned?"

It's not that I think Lisbon 2nd version is bad... I am merely stating that it's done wrong from the very beginning. I don't think it's a treaty, but a "dictatorship pamphlet" if it is imposed to us (no matter what we vote, it'll be imposed in the rest of Europe!) I just would like a EU in which we citizens are actually listened, and our demands satisfied. What I have seen, until now is "Everything for Europe, but without Europe" which, at the end of the day, means "Let's fill our pockets as much as we can before they realize, now that we are still on time"

And sorry if I am wrong or you disagree. It's just my honest opinion.

Is this treaty perfect? No

From my own point of view, I'd prefer to transfer power to the parliament from the council of ministers. I'd also like to see a bicameral parliament with one chamber providing representation based on population and the other providing a fixed number of of representative per member state.

And those are only a few of the reforms I'd make.

But there's a few crucial points.

The first is that you'd never get all 27 member states to agree to that. Britain would certainly object. Sweden and Denmark probably would too. And it may not be compatible with the German constitution.

The second is that the question we're being asked is not whether it's a perfect governmental treaty for the EU, it's whether or not it's an improvement on the Treaty of Nice.

And with the second point, the answer is Yes.

The parliament has more power. Powers that have unnecessarily been taken from the member states are being handed back. Decisions can be made more easily, without the horse-trading that has characterised the process before now.

To be honest, while the idea of going back and writing the treaty from scratch is tempting, it's simply not feasible. It's taken us 8 years to get this far. Getting agreement among 27 countries is painful. Do we take another 8 years? Is it not at minimum best to have an interim treaty when those negotiations are ongoing? Considering we're likely to switch from a Labour to Tory government in the UK even 8 years may be optimistic.

As for the argument about how Lisbon should be ratified, you have to remember that the EU is a confederation and not a federation. It does not tell the member states how to run their affairs.

Now, it's also questionable about whether we need a referendum. We don't hold them for most international treaties and there's nothing major in Lisbon that would require one, but it was the decision of our government at the time.

And there's the crucial part. It was the decision of our government. We don't accept the EU telling us our ratification mechanism and other countries will take the same attitude. Would you like to tell the Germans that they have to have a referendum, when the Germans simply don't do referendums?

[Eoin]

Vote NO to forced abortion through searing gas pain.

YEs for mandatory abortion and conscription.

[doppellanger]

vote No for legal cannabis.

[paudie]

what do you think france would have told the eu if they had a sugar beet industry and the eu told them to close there sugar industry if they had one so france can now just import sugar and the sugar beet helped the soil as well. they would have made there local and eu minster's life a living hell and told them where to go

[andy gaw]

Lisbon treaty is a german led vision for the future of Europe, i didn't like their last vision 1938-45...so i'll vote no.......again

[Professor Piehead]

To say that euorope has givin us loads thats why we have to vote yes is bull.We've paid our dues.

Spanish fishermen, milk quotes, farmers being paid not to grow crops.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Yes to the idea of the EEC (trade and all that). No to the the EU and Lisbon.

Sovern goverments doing whats best for themselves cos thats all the big countries in the EU are doing anyway.

It would be interesting to hear the views of those who don't mind bending over for the Franco-Prussian axis on the wonderment of the CAP and CFP. Seeing as both are cases of obscene immorality.

I'd also be intrested in their views on the 200 million euro per year cost of the pointless Brussels excursion to Strasbourg each month.


Part of Europe, not ruled by Europe.

[poulgorm]

I see Charlie McCreevey is in the shit again for telling the truth - he said that 95% of countries would have rejected the treaty if they had a referendum.

It's an awful shame that he was booted out of Finance - Bertie moved him to Brussels because he was keeping too tight a rein on spending - moved BIFFO in there instead and look where we are now - deficit of €14 billion.

As Mick Lyons would say, Jesus Wept.

[gozzy]

It would be interesting to hear the views of those who don't mind bending over for the Franco-Prussian axis on the wonderment of the CAP and CFP. Seeing as both are cases of obscene immorality.

I'd also be intrested in their views on the 200 million euro per year cost of the pointless Brussels excursion to Strasbourg each month.


Part of Europe, not ruled by Europe.

This thing is a joke. Jobs for the boys in Strasbourg.

[Geek4Hire]

all this reminds me of bush and the chads and the recounts.
if in doubt recount it and recount it until you get what you want.

democracy?

that died a long time ago.

[jd26]

It would be interesting to hear the views of those who don't mind bending over for the Franco-Prussian axis on the wonderment of the CAP and CFP. Seeing as both are cases of obscene immorality.

The CAP has its imperfections, but it has provided food security for Europe since the mid 1950s. At that point Europe was only a few years out of rationing, and while that was primarily caused by World War II, there was some peacetime rationing between the two world wars (e.g. sugar in Britain).

I worry that the rush to replace the CAP will produce the same kind of mess that taxi deregulation has in Ireland. Before you couldn't get a taxi driver, now you can get a taxi, but the taxi driver hasn't a clue where he's going (driver on Saturday night didn't know where Donnybrook was) and find loads of cars that aren't fit for the job. The CAP needs reform and replacing with a better model (and that has been gradually happening); scrapping it completely shouldn't be considered.

[daithi81]

The CAP has its imperfections, but it has provided food security for Europe since the mid 1950s. At that point Europe was only a few years out of rationing, and while that was primarily caused by World War II, there was some peacetime rationing between the two world wars (e.g. sugar in Britain).

I worry that the rush to replace the CAP will produce the same kind of mess that taxi deregulation has in Ireland. Before you couldn't get a taxi driver, now you can get a taxi, but the taxi driver hasn't a clue where he's going (driver on Saturday night didn't know where Donnybrook was) and find loads of cars that aren't fit for the job. The CAP needs reform and replacing with a better model (and that has been gradually happening); scrapping it completely shouldn't be considered.

Plus there are simply too many cabs now. I feel sorry for the cabbies who have been doing it for years. Political Science seems to have no concept of the term "phasing in", it seems.

[Professor Piehead]

The CAP has its imperfections, but it has provided food security for Europe since the mid 1950s. At that point Europe was only a few years out of rationing, and while that was primarily caused by World War II, there was some peacetime rationing between the two world wars (e.g. sugar in Britain).

I worry that the rush to replace the CAP will produce the same kind of mess that taxi deregulation has in Ireland. Before you couldn't get a taxi driver, now you can get a taxi, but the taxi driver hasn't a clue where he's going (driver on Saturday night didn't know where Donnybrook was) and find loads of cars that aren't fit for the job. The CAP needs reform and replacing with a better model (and that has been gradually happening); scrapping it completely shouldn't be considered.

:lol!:

[NotoriousFin]

A Yes vote in my opinion is quite necessary for Ireland's economic survival!
The guarantees, although provide no difference to what the treaty was, protect against what many of the No voters feared. I.e. Abortion, and thus giving them a "New Deal" on the treaty (albeit subjectively)!

[Jinky67]

A Yes vote in my opinion is quite necessary for Ireland's economic survival!The guarantees, although provide no difference to what the treaty was, protect against what many of the No voters feared. I.e. Abortion, and thus giving them a "New Deal" on the treaty (albeit subjectively)!

So by voting 'Yes', we survive economically???
Without it, we go down the tubes?

Our economy is in freefall right now. Could you elaborate on your statement? Exactly how will the economy be saved? By voting 'Yes', we suddenly become more competitive, and all the multi-nationals will be lining up to offer us jobs?

[POL]

Vote no and we'll bury Fianna Fail for ever

[jdckelly]

the treaty is exactly the same word for word as last time so my opinion hasnt changed.

[Cliff Barnes]

Vote Yes for Carla Bruni

[Cliff Barnes]

.

[Actin The Sham]

Vote yes and receive pregnant women from all over the EU who will be forced to undergo abortions here and will then be conscripted into the British Army and sent to Afghanistan to fight for the Americans while claiming full childrens allowance here for their aborted children.


:shock:

[hemlock666]

Vote yes and next time Fianna Fail wont use lubricant.

[Actin The Sham]

Vote yes and the British will conscript all our young men into their colonial army.

[hemlock666]

Vote no and keep your gods

[Cliff Barnes]

Vote NO and align yourself with the British Conservative Party,Sinn Fein & UKIP and you could be the pearly King & Queen of old Lahndahn Tahn.......

[jd26]

Best No argument I've seen yet...

We are a small nation ruled by a combination of corrupt politicians and an even more corrupt priesthood.

Europe needs us like a second round of bubonic plague.

Do your fellow europeans a favour

VOTE NO.

[malolo]

vote YES

u got a loads of €uro from EU, spud republika has changed into celtik tiger so be fair now..

[diar2me]

Vote Yes cause clearly our politicians couldn't run a piss up in a Brewery and any outside influence is gladly welcomed. Vote Yes cause without Europe we are fucked. Vote Yes cause if we vote no the ECB will not be so quick to help us out of a mess WE got ourselves into. But Vote yes more than anything else cause Sinn Fein, a bunch a corrupt murdering thiefs, The Socialist Party, a bunch of egjits who will deter foreign investment in the "interests of the worker" (is it the interest of the worker to have no work?) and fucking Libertas a group of individuals who ask questions but don't seem to have any answers and seem to be as corrupt as they come are asking you the public to Vote No! That's as good a reason as any!

[Closer80]

Vote Yes cause clearly our politicians couldn't run a piss up in a Brewery and any outside influence is gladly welcomed. Vote Yes cause without Europe we are fucked. Vote Yes cause if we vote no the ECB will not be so quick to help us out of a mess WE got ourselves into. But Vote yes more than anything else cause Sinn Fein, a bunch a corrupt murdering thiefs, The Socialist Party, a bunch of egjits who will deter foreign investment in the "interests of the worker" (is it the interest of the worker to have no work?) and fucking Libertas a group of individuals who ask questions but don't seem to have any answers and seem to be as corrupt as they come are asking you the public to Vote No! That's as good a reason as any!

You've out logic'd yourself.

By the exact same token one could say vote no, because FF/FG are proposing a yes vote. And they clearly can't run a piss up in a brewery...
Either way it's a bad way to vote.

[diar2me]

You've out logic'd yourself.

By the exact same token one could say vote no, because FF/FG are proposing a yes vote. And they clearly can't run a piss up in a brewery...
Either way it's a bad way to vote.

FF and FG as bad as people think they are are not murdering thieving scumbags! I was once on the NO side at the very beginning but the more I read about it I defo a Yeser. What exactly are you saying is a bad way to vote?

[Closer80]

FF and FG as bad as people think they are are not murdering thieving scumbags! I was once on the NO side at the very beginning but the more I read about it I defo a Yeser. What exactly are you saying is a bad way to vote?

"well they're for it, so i'm against it".


or vice versa

I'm not saying a yes or no vote is correct and don't really care how you vote, but that's a bad logic for voting. Again, the exact same could be applied to FF/FG on the basis of their swindling/ineptness.

[diar2me]

"well they're for it, so i'm against it".


or vice versa

I'm not saying a yes or no vote is correct and don't really care how you vote, but that's a bad logic for voting. Again, the exact same could be applied to FF/FG on the basis of their swindling/ineptness.

Jesus, dude read my whole post will ya. That was the last bit you're focusing on. I have listed brief details on why I will be voting Yes - ie. The ECB and it bailing us out, what Europe has, is and will do for us. I am pro Europe. I think we stand to gain much more out of being directly involved than not and I personally welcome influence from Brussels. That last bit, to spell it out for you was an attempt at some humour, a bad attempt evidently!

[Closer80]

Jesus, dude read my whole post will ya. That was the last bit you're focusing on. That last bit, to spell it out for you was an attempt at some humour, a bad attempt evidently!

That's as good a reason as any!


Yarr

I have listed brief details on why I will be voting Yes - ie. The ECB and it bailing us out, what Europe has, is and will do for us. I am pro Europe. I think we stand to gain much more out of being directly involved than not and I personally welcome influence from Brussels

Bully for you!

[diar2me]

Yarr



Bully for you!

Oh piss off will ya. Has anyone told you how annoying you are. Betcha you're one of those people whose Mammy and Daddy never paid him enough attention in the pub when they were small. Then when you used start crying - "give him another bag of Taytos to shut him up". Nothing constructive to comment on or not willing to give your opinion, rather just comment on everyone elses posts you brainless fuck. You are the internet version of a bar stool sports fan!

[Closer80]

Oh piss off will ya. Has anyone told you how annoying you are. Betcha you're one of those people whose Mammy and Daddy never paid him enough attention in the pub when they were small. Then when you used start crying - "give him another bag of Taytos to shut him up". Nothing constructive to comment on or not willing to give your opinion, rather just comment on everyone elses posts you brainless fuck. You are the internet version of a bar stool sports fan!

...

:lol::lol:

[diar2me]

...

:lol::lol:

Indeed!!!

[daithi81]

What makes you think the current FG setup are inept at running a country?

[diar2me]

What makes you think the current FG setup are inept at running a country?

I don't. How could anyone know that as they haven't been in power now quite a while. Quite the contrary actually, I think they could do a much better job if they were in power, certainly in the financial area anyway. I was referring to the smucks that are the greens and the Failers. Bottom line is Vote Yes!

[jd26]

The Economist's view

Any election would almost certainly be followed by the main opposition party, Fine Gael, forming a coalition with the third-largest party, the Labour Party. Such a government would have a number of positive features. First, after 12 uninterrupted years in power and having spent only 30 months of the past 22 years in opposition, Fianna Fail is tired. An entirely new cabinet, by contrast, could be expected to be more energetic, vigorous and dynamic than the incumbents.

In addition, Fine Gael and Labour have a number of capable figures who could be expected to make good ministers (this is important given Ireland's unusual constitutional arrangements, reinforced by convention, which mean that only sitting members of the lower house are appointed to ministerial positions).

Offsetting these positives are a number of potential negatives, however. Unlike the current coalition, in which Fianna Fail is overwhelmingly dominant, a Fine Gael-Labour alliance would be more evenly balanced. This would be likely to create difficulties on agreeing policy positions. Ideologically, Fine Gael is moderately centre-right, while the Labour Party is firmly on the left. Politically, Fine Gael is a catch-all party and, like Fianna Fail, is often highly reluctant to take policy positions that any significant segment of the electorate might oppose. Labour, by contrast, is more of a niche party.

http://www.economist.com/agenda/displaystory.cfm?sto ry_id=14252575

[daithi81]

I don't. How could anyone know that as they haven't been in power now quite a while. Quite the contrary actually, I think they could do a much better job if they were in power, certainly in the financial area anyway. I was referring to the smucks that are the greens and the Failers. Bottom line is Vote Yes!

That was going to be my follow-up point. Ditto for Labour, or whoever.*
















*bar Sinn Fein.

[diar2me]

That was going to be my follow-up point. Ditto for Labour, or whoever.*
















*bar Sinn Fein.

Ditto, although I do not agree with Labours policies and I would be a FG follower shall I say I think anyone would be better than those shower in there at the moment. Ditto also on Sinn Fein - Murdering Thiefs!

[doppellanger]

Vote No to Lisbon if you don't want NAMA.

[Closer80]

What makes you think the current FG setup are inept at running a country?


Their inability to pick intelligent candidates in local elections.

Their shafting of an honest politician in favour of getting a well known public figure with fuck all political experience into Europe.

Their support of Fianna Fail.

Enda Kenny is the worst political leader Ireland has ever seen.

The failure of every combination and coalition to prevent FF from landsliding.

The audacity of acting like a different party to FF.

[Professor Piehead]

Their inability to pick intelligent candidates in local elections.

Their shafting of an honest politician in favour of getting a well known public figure with fuck all political experience into Europe.

Their support of Fianna Fail.

Enda Kenny is the worst political leader Ireland has ever seen.

The failure of every combination and coalition to prevent FF from landsliding.

The audacity of acting like a different party to FF.

:lol!:

You've shot yourself in the foot there.

[Closer80]

:lol!:

You've shot yourself in the foot there.

??

[Langer Dan]

Their inability to pick intelligent candidates in local elections.

Their shafting of an honest politician in favour of getting a well known public figure with fuck all political experience into Europe.

Their support of Fianna Fail.

Enda Kenny is the worst political leader Ireland has ever seen.

The failure of every combination and coalition to prevent FF from landsliding.

The audacity of acting like a different party to FF.

I'd say they're quaking at the prospect of losing the unemployed, non-registered, live at home, early twenties vote :lol!:

[diar2me]

Their inability to pick intelligent candidates in local elections.

Their shafting of an honest politician in favour of getting a well known public figure with fuck all political experience into Europe.

Their support of Fianna Fail.

Enda Kenny is the worst political leader Ireland has ever seen.

The failure of every combination and coalition to prevent FF from landsliding.

The audacity of acting like a different party to FF.

One word - Ridiculous!

[jd26]

Enda Kenny isn't even the worst leader Fine Gael has seen (Eoin O'Duffy? Richard Mulcahy? Liam Cosgrave? Michael Noonan?), never mind the "worst political leader Ireland has ever seen".

If in comabination with all his other messes, the Lisbon Treaty fails to pass, Brian Cowen is a shoo in for that title. He will have truly led the country to disaster.

[Closer80]

I'd say they're quaking at the prospect of losing the unemployed, non-registered, live at home, early twenties vote :lol!:

1. Unemployed

Nope

2. Non Registered.

Non registered for what exactly?

3. Live at home

Oh god help us, that in recession people should live at home. In another conversation you'd be going on about what a bum a person is living at home.
For the record anyway i've lived at home for about 2 weeks until i find a new affordable house.

That's what normal folks do Dan.

Hey, why don't you say i'm on the dole again?! It's great making things up isn't it Dan?

Enda Kenny isn't even the worst leader Fine Gael has seen (Eoin O'Duffy? Richard Mulcahy? Liam Cosgrave? Michael Noonan?), never mind the "worst political leader Ireland has ever seen".

Michael Noonan might challenge him alright. Add the words "one of" and it's correct though. And it still doesn't change my point or my perspective.

One word - Ridiculous!

...
:lol!:

[Langer Dan]

3. Live at home

Oh god help us, that in recession people should live at home. In another conversation you'd be going on about what a bum a person is living at home.
For the record anyway i've lived at home for about 2 weeks until i find a new affordable house.

:

You're exactly where I said you'd be six months ago.

You're a predictable pity :lol!:

[Closer80]

You're exactly where I said you'd be six months ago.

You're a predictable pity :lol!:

What, employed??

I recall you saying i wouldn't get a 2.1. I did.
I recall you saying i wouldn't graduate. I am doing in a few weeks.
I recall you saying i'd be on the dole. I am not.

Luckily Dan i don't have to justify my life to a tool like yourself. Only to myself, and i am doing quite well given the circumstances.

What is it exactly that you do? You're all talk about what I should be doing, but as far as i can see you have no qualification to lecture me on anything.

You're a pathetic specimen.

Anyway being as this isn't a discussion about me, but off topic being as it seems to have spread this way, even the best intentioned Fine Gael government will end up in the same old rut. In order to undo all the FF damage, they will have to impose higher taxes, and generally tighten belts to such an extent that they will be voted out again asap. It's happened over and over again.

[Langer Dan]

What, employed??

I recall you saying i wouldn't get a 2.1. I did.
I recall you saying i wouldn't graduate. I am doing in a few weeks.
I recall you saying i'd be on the dole. I am not.

Luckily Dan i don't have to justify my life to a tool like yourself. Only to myself, and i am doing quite well given the circumstances.

What is it exactly that you do? You're all talk about what I should be doing, but as far as i can see you have no qualification to lecture me on anything.

You're a pathetic specimen.

Anyway being as this isn't a discussion about me, but off topic being as it seems to have spread this way, even the best intentioned Fine Gael government will end up in the same old rut. In order to undo all the FF damage, they will have to impose higher taxes, and generally tighten belts to such an extent that they will be voted out again asap. It's happened over and over again.

Kaboom

:lol!:

Being stuck under mammy's feet is really killing you isn't it?

:lol!:

[Closer80]

Kaboom

:lol!:

Being stuck under mammy's feet is really killing you isn't it?

:lol!:

??

Do you hate your parents or something Dan?

I have no trouble living with my folks. They are good people.

:lol:

Again i ask you:


What is it exactly that you do? You're all talk about what I should be doing, but as far as i can see you have no qualification to lecture me on anything.

Apart from spamming threads with your meat headed, ham fisted attempts at WUM'ing.

[jd26]

Michael Noonan might challenge him alright. Add the words "one of" and it's correct though. And it still doesn't change my point or my perspective. ...
:lol!:

There was no "one of" in this statement.

Enda Kenny is the worst political leader Ireland has ever seen.

[Langer Dan]

There was no "one of" in this statement.

Pwned!

[Closer80]

There was no "one of" in this statement.

Eh yeah, that's why i said add the words. I was being a hyperbolic also :)

For the record i would vote FG/Labour to get out the shower that are in power and keep out the radicals. Fact is however, looking at history, even if they're well meaning and competent, the chances are they won't survive.

[Closer80]

Pwned!

Y'know Dan, not everyone is deluded enough to sit around turning conversations into weird games of one upmanship. If JD wants to say "Pwned", that's fine, but you don't have any rights to, being as your idea of contributing to the conversation is to start attacking my family and me again.

You are the most pathetic specimen on this board.

[Langer Dan]

Eh yeah, that's why i said add the words. I was being a hyperbolic also :)

For the record i would vote FG/Labour to get out the shower that are in power and keep out the radicals. Fact is however, looking at history, even if they're well meaning and competent, the chances are they won't survive.

Nope you were talking through your ass, and you were rightly called on it.


FAIL.

[Closer80]

Nope you were talking through your ass, and you were rightly called on it.


FAIL.

:rolleyes:

You really are a child.

[Professor Piehead]

http://www.timesonline.co.u k/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article399380.ece

http://policyinstitute.info/news-events/marta-andreasen-lecture/

Of course the Lisbon treaty will put this right. :rolleyes:

[Langer Dan]

Y'know Dan, not everyone is deluded enough to sit around turning conversations into weird games of one upmanship. If JD wants to say "Pwned", that's fine, but you don't have any rights to, being as your idea of contributing to the conversation is to start attacking my family and me again.

You are the most pathetic specimen on this board.

INTERNET rights?

FFS, gway ya clown :lol!:

Who's attacking your family? Far from it, they are to be commended for supporting an ungrateful wretch like yourself who doesn't have the decency to contribute to the roof over his head, but I digress.

Your mealy mouthed attack on FG and Kenny and subsequent backtracking just illustrate your lack of knowledge, it's very easy to criticise and not offer solutions.

This thread is about the Lisbon treaty.
Take your petty grievances about the reaction to your sad little march elsewhere.


:lol!:

[Closer80]

INTERNET rights?

FFS, gway ya clown :lol!:

Who's attacking your family? Far from it, they are to be commended for supporting an ungrateful wretch like yourself who doesn't have the decency to contribute to the roof over his head, but I digress.

Your mealy mouthed attack on FG and Kenny and subsequent backtracking just illustrate your lack of knowledge, it's very easy to criticise and not offer solutions.

This thread is about the Lisbon treaty.
Take your petty grievances about the reaction to your sad little march elsewhere.


:lol!:

LOL

Awww....

It's a pity you have nothing to do with the conversation Dan.
Now please, as you say to many folk on here, this is grown up talk.
Not for folk who find it hard standing in doorways.

[diar2me]

LOL

Awww....

It's a pity you have nothing to do with the conversation Dan.
Now please, as you say to many folk on here, this is grown up talk.
Not for folk who find it hard standing in doorways.

Grown up talk you say? You haven't a clue what you are on about with the usual socialist rubbish, criticise everything and offer no solutions whatsoever! Fecking clem ya! Here lets invent a forum for you:

The I HAVEN'T A CLUE FORUM:
For people like closer 80 who like to talk like neanderthals all day long!

[Langer Dan]

Grown up talk you say? You haven't a clue what you are on about with the usual socialist rubbish, criticise everything and offer no solutions whatsoever! Fecking clem ya! Here lets invent a forum for you:

The I HAVEN'T A CLUE FORUM:
For people like closer 80 who like to talk like neanderthals all day long!

Well said, Closey is the typical ex -student, layabout, supposed socialist.

He probably isn't even registered to vote.
All mouth and no action these types.

[Closer80]

Well said, Closey is the typical ex -student, layabout, supposed socialist.

He probably isn't even registered to vote.
All mouth and no action these types.

:D :D

So typical "ex students" are layabouts and supposed socialists...


:D

You are so stupid it hurts :D

[Closer80]

Grown up talk you say? You haven't a clue what you are on about with the usual socialist rubbish, criticise everything and offer no solutions whatsoever! Fecking clem ya! Here lets invent a forum for you:

The I HAVEN'T A CLUE FORUM:
For people like closer 80 who like to talk like neanderthals all day long!

This from a guy who rubbishes and generalises an entire group of people who work day in day out.

Who are you again?

[diar2me]

This from a guy who rubbishes and generalises an entire group of people who work day in day out.

Who are you again?
Ah what? What are you on about? Back to scrounging there let ya! It's very black and white really closer(to mammy). Socialists like you are idiots who have notions off planet mars, who like to reward idiots and lazy people and punish entrepreneurs and people with a brain. People like you make me sick!

[Closer80]

Ah what? What are you on about? Back to scrounging there let ya! It's very black and white really closer(to mammy). Socialists like you are idiots who have notions off planet mars, who like to reward idiots and lazy people and punish entrepreneurs and people with a brain. People like you make me sick!

1. I am not a socialist. :D My views on socialism are probably close to yours, except, well thought out.

2.
No wonder they want to support the unemployed and working class. Cause that's what they are! A bunch of thickos who can't even get jobs!

You're pretty fucking retarded if you think that "unemployed" is the same as "working class"

3.
People like you make me sick!
I am really really glad :D

oh shit i didn't even notice this one:

punish entrepreneurs and people with a brain
Would that be like, people that have finished college, and eh work, and eh have ideas that they would like to eventually turn into a business?

It's weird i'd want to punish myself, maybe i'm a sadist?

You tell me, being as you know me oh so well :)

[Langer Dan]

Ah what? What are you on about? Back to scrounging there let ya! It's very black and white really closer(to mammy). Socialists like you are idiots who have notions off planet mars, who like to reward idiots and lazy people and punish entrepreneurs and people with a brain. People like you make me sick!

Nail on the head.

They like to spoof on about theory they really only have a passing understanding of and they're so principled that they refuse to give rent to their folks.

Closey should tell us all again how Venezuala is a worker's paradise. :lol!:
You're dealing with a halfwit here Diarey, at least the moron isn't registered to vote on Lisbon 2.

[Closer80]

Nail on the head.

They like to spoof on about theory they really only have a passing understanding of and they're so principled that they refuse to give rent to their folks.

Closey should tell us all again how Venezuala is a worker's paradise. :lol!:
You're dealing with a halfwit here Diarey, at least the moron isn't registered to vote on Lisbon 2.

Amazing, i'd be registered to vote on Lisbon 1, and not on Lisbon 2.

It must be great pretending to be an intellectual Dan.

[Langer Dan]

Amazing, i'd be registered to vote on Lisbon 1, and not on Lisbon 2.

It must be great pretending to be an intellectual Dan.

Are you an intellectual Closey?
Do you and the rest of the Mallow Intelligentsia hold meetings devoted to Marxist theory?

Stick to the half assed druggy marches that accomplish nothing Closey.
Your understanding of Irish politics is lamentable.

[Closer80]

Are you an intellectual Closey?


Nah lad, and i wouldn't pretend to be unlike yourself.
Ii know what i know, and I know when i'm conversing with someone who has shit for brains. And you sir, have shit for brains.

Do you and the rest of the Mallow Intelligentsia hold meetings devoted to Marxist theory?

Stick to the half assed druggy marches that accomplish nothing Closey.
Your understanding of Irish politics is lamentable.

:lol!:

You just love making up arguments where there are none don't ya :)

It's pretty darn pathetic.

Especially from a guy on....vacation...

:lol!:

[Langer Dan]

Nah lad, and i wouldn't pretend to be unlike yourself.
Ii know what i know, and I know when i'm conversing with someone who has shit for brains. And you sir, have shit for brains.

You just love making up arguments where there are none don't ya :)

It's pretty darn pathetic.

Especially from a guy on....vacation...

:lol!:

insults, holiday....
You do realise this isn't the G20 thread right?

Closey, you're an angry young man, but hey if I were in your position I might be as well.

Back on topic now, theres a good man....

[Closer80]

insults, holiday....
You do realise this isn't the G20 thread right?


You don't even get it when i'm being ironic :D

Oh the...irony :D

Closey, you're an angry young man, but hey if I were in your position I might be as well.

:D Again with the making things up because you have no argument.

You're so bad at "pwning" (something which you profess to be a master of) that you have to jump on things that you haven't even pointed out.

I'd say i'd be alot angrier if i was you: balding, approaching middle age, and still as retarded and arrogant as you were as a teenager.


Back on topic now, theres a good man....

:lol!:

Hilarity.

[Langer Dan]

Closey, you're a pity.

You give layabout, crusty, spongers a bad name.
You also don't appear to understand Irony.

This is amusing.

[Closer80]

Jayz yer quick off the mark today, must be nothing going on...


Closey, you're a pity.

You give layabout, crusty, spongers a bad name.

3rd time counting that you've made shit up to produce an argument. I think i'll keep noting this, as it's hilarious


You also don't appear to understand Irony.

So what your saying is you don't understand Irony, but i don't either? Well i do. So looks like yer on yer own.

This is amusing.[/QUOTE]
Oh you have nooo idea :D

[Langer Dan]

Jayz yer quick off the mark today, must be nothing going on...




3rd time counting that you've made shit up to produce an argument. I think i'll keep noting this, as it's hilarious



So what your saying is you don't understand Irony, but i don't either? Well i do. So looks like yer on yer own.

This is amusing.
Oh you have nooo idea :D[/QUOTE]

But you're not rattled, no sirree.

As I said, a pity.

Explain to us please, why is reform of the way the EU conducts it's business a bad thing for Ireland?

[Closer80]

But you're not rattled, no sirree.

Oh i wouldn't want to be Rattled! then you might "pwn" me :O


As I said, a pity.
As I said, you're balding, approaching middle age, and still as retarded and arrogant as you were as a teenager.

Explain to us please, why is reform of the way the EU conducts it's business a bad thing for Ireland?

Explain to me please, where i said this?

[Langer Dan]

More insults and he refuses to answer a direct question.

Closey, you are a pity.

[Closer80]

More insults and he refuses to answer a direct question.
Show me where i said it and i'll answer your loaded question P.

Closey, you are a pity.

Shall i go ahead and copy and paste all the incidences of you saying that?

I thought you didn't dig repetition?

Ah well.

Dan you're a fake :)

[Langer Dan]

How is it a loaded question?

I'l make it simple for you.
Do you view the ratification of the Lisbon treaty as a bad thing?
If so, why?

Genuine question.

[Closer80]

How is it a loaded question?

I'l make it simple for you.


I'm sure you'l ;)

It was a loaded question because it assumed the particular stance i was taking

Explain to us please, why is reform of the way the EU conducts it's business a bad thing for Ireland?

Now i don't think i've ever, ever said that.

Do you view the ratification of the Lisbon treaty as a bad thing?
If so, why?


You know for a second there i was even going to give you a proper answer.

Genuine question

Then i remembered, there's no such thing with you. You don't answer questions, so why should I exactly?

WUM on the lam, watch out for ladyboys, etc. etc.

Oh well, i'll give you a short answer: no i don't :)

[diar2me]

Nah lad, and i wouldn't pretend to be unlike yourself.
Ii know what i know, and I know when i'm conversing with someone who has shit for brains. And you sir, have shit for brains.



:lol!:

You just love making up arguments where there are none don't ya :)

It's pretty darn pathetic.

Especially from a guy on....vacation...

:lol!:

You're the retard. Working class AND unemployed. Did you ever read the Socialist parties policies? Clearly not you buffon! Look face facts you are an idiot. Look at you again. Taking all of me and Langer Dans quotes and twisting them and turning them and commenting on them but have given no indication of what your opinion is. Comment on everyone elses views but don't offer your own. Joe......... Joe Higgins, is that you? Fuck off and go back closer to Mammy!

[Langer Dan]

I'm sure you'l ;)

It was a loaded question because it assumed the particular stance i was taking



Now i don't think i've ever, ever said that.




You know for a second there i was even going to give you a proper answer.


Then i remembered, there's no such thing with you. You don't answer questions, so why should I exactly?

WUM on the lam, watch out for ladyboys, etc. etc.

Oh well, i'll give you a short answer: no i don't :)

:shock:

You're clearly deranged.

[Closer80]

You're the retard. Working class AND unemployed.

What EXACTLY qualifies as working class? And i am employed.

Damn, you take Dan seriously don't you...

Did you ever read the Socialist parties policies? Clearly not you buffon!

Of course not, i have no interest in the Socialist party. They are retarded.

You "buffoon"


Look face facts you are an idiot.
Show me the facts, or even where i said i wasn't and i'll give ya a gold medal!


Look at you again.

Most do take a second look alright...

Taking all of me and Langer Dans quotes and twisting them and turning them and commenting on them but have given no indication of what your opinion is.


I only give my opinions to those that i think have a bit of sense in them. Dan i know is retarded, and you threw a fanny fit the other day over some comment i didn't even remember making. That was great alright.

Urrr, and i just gave my opinion, albeit shortened because i couldn't be arsed giving Dan any kind of decent reply.


Comment on everyone elses views but don't offer your own.

Again

I just gave my opinion...

Joe......... Joe Higgins, is that you? Fuck off and go back closer to Mammy!

Another repetitive dollard :)

[Closer80]

:shock:

You're clearly deranged.

Is it deranged to be for the Lisbon Treaty?

You've clearly got a sad life. Travelling the world, but you can't get off a computer and look around. Fucking pathetic.

[Langer Dan]

Deranged.

Dance monkey boy :lol!:

[Closer80]

Deranged.

Dance monkey boy :lol!:

So still sitting at our computer Dan are we.

I take great pleasure in that :)

Wait...dance monkey boy?

Is this another case of Langer Dan thinking:
"I knoE i'll act as if i am teh 1337 puppet masterr, DEN I'LL BE DA WINNAR! LOL I love grugs"

??

:lol!: :lol!:

[POL]

Is it deranged to be for the Lisbon Treaty?

You've clearly got a sad life. Travelling the world, but you can't get off a computer and look around. Fucking pathetic.

TKaXcQiwIL4

[Closer80]

TKaXcQiwIL4

:p Not where the name comes from!

Pumping beatz though.

[diar2me]

What EXACTLY qualifies as working class? And i am employed.

Damn, you take Dan seriously don't you...



Of course not, i have no interest in the Socialist party. They are retarded.

You "buffoon"



Show me the facts, or even where i said i wasn't and i'll give ya a gold medal!




Most do take a second look alright...



I only give my opinions to those that i think have a bit of sense in them. Dan i know is retarded, and you threw a fanny fit the other day over some comment i didn't even remember making. That was great alright.

Urrr, and i just gave my opinion, albeit shortened because i couldn't be arsed giving Dan any kind of decent reply.




Again

I just gave my opinion...



Another repetitive dollard :)

Bla bla bla bla! Go cry to Mammy there will ya and leave the adults talk. You are employed! You say that as if it is some sort of achievement! Look you are after contradicting yourself at least three times here since the start. Make up your mind what your views are cause you are criticising people with completely opposite opinions so get a grip and shut up!

[Closer80]

Bla bla bla bla! Go cry to Mammy there will ya and leave the adults talk.

And for the millionth time you bring up my "mammy"

You are employed! You say that as if it is some sort of achievement!

No i say it because you just said i was unemployed.

Look you are after contradicting yourself at least three times here since the start.

Where's that? You sound very specific :)



Make up your mind what your views are cause you are criticising people with completely opposite opinions so get a grip and shut up!

YES! ONE RIGID, INFLEXIBLE VIEW IS WHAT WE NEED!

Then we can argue, and never concede that, oh i don't know, one might be wrong, or not have their facts right, or be confused.

Jesus you people are so afraid of being wrong, you think everyone else is the same way :)


Ehm, i already stated them, and I believe the only real people i criticised were politicians.

In case you don't get it, i don't count you two ;)

[diar2me]

Sleep Closer Sleep!

[Closer80]

Sleep Closer Sleep!

??

What?

:oops: I'm embarrassed for ya.

[diar2me]

??

What?

:oops: I'm embarrassed for ya.

When I click my fingers you will become a level headed boy once again and have views that make sense. You will stop talking out your arse and retain some of the valid points being made on this thread. And you will also stop acting like a gobshite which is what you've been doing since I hypnotised you way back when you were born. 3, 2, 1.......... ok wakey wakey, open your eyes! And????????????????? ????????????

[Closer80]

Can you space out some of your sentences please. It looks like a big block of shite. Hence why i've been doing that so far. However i've no intention even giving you further replies if you don't clean it up a bit. Nice one.


When I click my fingers you will become a level headed boy once again and have views that make sense. You will stop talking out your arse and retain some of the valid points being made on this thread.

Would talking out my arse entail calling people socialists, and unemployed when they're not?

Would it mean assuming someone takes a particular stance, and going nuts with it, making themselves look like an arse?

So despite telling you 2 or 3 times that i've already given my views and referring you to the post, you still don't get it. Fair enough :)

Explain EXACTLY how my views don't make sense to you?

Not that ya can.

And you will also stop acting like a gobshite which is what you've been doing since I hypnotised you way back when you were born. 3, 2, 1.......... ok wakey wakey, open your eyes! And????????????????? ????????????


For the record, hypnotism thing, worst attempt at a WUM ever.

You obviously didn't lurk for long before joining :D

[diar2me]

Can you space out some of your sentences please. It looks like a big block of shite. Hence why i've been doing that so far. However i've no intention even giving you further replies if you don't clean it up a bit. Nice one.




Would talking out my arse entail calling people socialists, and unemployed when they're not?

Would it mean assuming someone takes a particular stance, and going nuts with it, making themselves look like an arse?

So despite telling you 2 or 3 times that i've already given my views and referring you to the post, you still don't get it. Fair enough :)

Explain EXACTLY how my views don't make sense to you?

Not that ya can.




For the record, hypnotism thing, worst attempt at a WUM ever.

You obviously didn't lurk for long before joining :D

How can I make sense of your views if you don't have any ya clem? It's not a wum either. I'm serious, actually closer now is probably a better time than ever to tell you, the reason I have been referring to your mammy so much is, how do I say it, Closer I am your father! Make your views quite clear and I will address them ya handy! And on the topic of layouts (sad that you even address this but anyway) each time anyone looks at your thread it looks like you're looking for planning for a housing development or something on the fucking thread there is so much space. Here's a task for ya now. Don't stay up too late on it now - Give your opinion on whether you will be voting yes or no and why without at any stage quoting anyone elses opinion. A big ask I know but just try it k!

[Closer80]

How can I make sense of your views if you don't have any ya clem? It's not a wum either. I'm serious, actually closer now is probably a better time than ever to tell you, the reason I have been referring to your mammy so much is, how do I say it, Closer I am your father! Make your views quite clear and I will address them ya handy! And on the topic of layouts (sad that you even address this but anyway) each time anyone looks at your thread it looks like you're looking for planning for a housing development or something on the fucking thread there is so much space. Here's a task for ya now. Don't stay up too late on it now - Give your opinion on whether you will be voting yes or no and why without at any stage quoting anyone elses opinion. A big ask I know but just try it k!

Again, use the enter key. I refuse to read such shite, i picked out some key words though.

How can i make my views any clearer?

Do you view the ratification of the Lisbon treaty as a bad thing?
If so, why?

Oh well, i'll give you a short answer: no i don't
Durrr...

[diar2me]

As i say, i'm refusing to read these big blocks of rubbish. Learn to use the Enter key ;)

Learn to read and write handicap!

[Closer80]

Learn to read and write handicap!

:lol!: Excuse me? Learn to use a fucking enter key. Again.

It ain't my job to siphon through your bullshit trying to make out what it is you're actually trying to say.

You know for someone who hates the "thick" working class, you really don't have much scruples. or abilities with a keyboard.

No wonder your views are so blatantly generalised, biased, and just plain wrong :)

[Closer80]

DURR HE ARE NOT A SOCIALIST OR UNAMPLOYED, HOW DO'S I HURT HIM NOW? I KNOE I'LL TALK ABOUT HIS FAMILY LOOOOL. HEY Y DONT I SAY HE IZ A SPONGER COZ HE LIVIN AT HOEM AND DAT IS ILLEGUL!

That makes two of the worst specimens on the site, sinking to the lowest of the low :)

[diar2me]

:lol!: Excuse me? Learn to use a fucking enter key. Again.

It ain't my job to siphon through your bullshit trying to make out what it is you're actually trying to say.

You know for someone who hates the "thick" working class, you really don't have much scruples. or abilities with a keyboard.

No wonder your views are so blatantly generalised, biased, and just plain wrong :)

If that's all you can comment on on a thread designated to one of the most important referendums facing this country in decades you should be questioning your own intelligence?

[diar2me]

That makes two of the worst specimens on the site, sinking to the lowest of the low :)

Well done! Love your work! Or wait...............?

[Closer80]

If that's all you can comment on on a thread designated to one of the most important referendums facing this country in decades you should be questioning your own intelligence?

Whoa, all of a sudden he speaks with brevity but intelligence!

Good. Now next time if you post a lot, just split it up. Honest request.

Vote Yes for God sake!

Because that was SUCH a contribution.

Willing something for the sake of a very possibly non existent deity, without justifying your view or in anyway furthering what you said.

Anyway If you want to know how to post on this part of the site, look at JD26's posts, not Dans.

[Closer80]

Well done! Love your work! Or wait...............?

??


I'm really trying not to be mean, because you're not one of the WUM's.

You have your work cut out for you if you intend going that way though.

That was bad :(

I view bringing up family on here as being the lowest of the low, sorry, you've gone there multiple times now.

[diar2me]

??


I'm really trying not to be mean, because you're not one of the WUM's.

You have your work cut out for you if you intend going that way though.

That was bad :(

I view bringing up family on here as being the lowest of the low, sorry, you've gone there multiple times now.

You have questioned my intelligence on numerous occasions, which I think is personally hurtful! Yes I categorise and stereotype but who are you to question my opinion when you don't have one yourself?

[Closer80]

You have questioned my intelligence on numerous occasions,

S'cos you keep flipping out. Stop flipping out and i won't :)

which I think is personally hurtful! Yes I categorise and stereotype but who are you to question my opinion when you don't have one yourself?

Ok, sorry.

Anyway of course i have an opinion, which one do you want?

Re: socialism

Anyone who thinks it can work at this point is kinda deluded. There are some interesting examples, which shouldn't be dismissed right away, but fact is, even if it DOES work in certain places, it will NEVER work here.

The SWP etc. are radical, and annoying.

Joe Higgins is a good orator, but little more.

Re: Lisbon Treaty

The vote itself doesn't really matter, it's symbolic.

The EU needs just as much reform as our own government, and i don't feel Lisbon touches any of it.
I worry about certain countries being in positions of power (read: Germany) which might be silly in some peoples eyes, but i like my history, and i like to learn from it.

I worry that we're becoming increasingly centralised into a superstate, which is something i do not want to be part of. I have no trouble trading, being friendly, lifting barriers to travel & work etc. I get on with Europeans far better than with Irish folk i know generally. I am still not convinced that we need a full on federal entity like the USA though.

Why do i not think that ratification of lisbon is a bad thing?/ Why do i think it's a good thing...


Alot of it is necessary for maintaining the structure of the EU and the constitutional framework.

It keeps us on track with the amendments that have been made since Nice and Maastricht.

Brings in the Charter of Fundamental Human rights, thus intergrating the convention of human rights.

[Cliff Barnes]

Ryanair to campaign for Yes vote


The move comes a week after the general manager of the multinational company Intel in Ireland said voting Yes to the treaty was hugely important for the future of foreign investment in Ireland.

In a statement, Ryanair said it believed it was “vital” that the Irish electorate give a “resounding ‘Yes to Europe’” in the referendum.

The treaty was rejected by 53.4 per cent of those who voted in a referendum in June last year.

Chief executive of Ryanair Michael O’Leary said: “I believe it is vital that every Irish voter on 2nd October next votes in the referendum and votes ‘Yes to Europe’. Ireland’s membership of the European Union and the euro has transformed our economy and the lives of millions of Irish people today.”

“Ireland’s future success depends on being at the heart of Europe and our membership of the Euro. The European Central Bank came to Ireland’s rescue last year when the combination of appalling mismanagement by Bertie Ahern’s government over the past decade left Ireland hopelessly unprepared for the effect of the property/banking crisis and the recession which would, if it were not for Europe’s help, have caused a collapse of the Irish economy.

"The difference between Iceland and Ireland was not one letter, but rather Ireland’s membership of the European Union and the euro," he said.

“Without Europe and the euro, the Irish economy would be run by our incompetent politicians, our inept civil service and the greedy public sector trade union bosses, who through social partnership have in recent years destroyed Ireland’s competitiveness, created an epidemic of useless quangos and feathered the nests of the public sector at the expense of ordinary consumers in Ireland."

Mr O'Leary said he believed the Irish electorate must vote Yes to the treaty in October or "our economic future will be destroyed by Government and Civil Service mismanagement and the narrow vested interests of the public sector trade unions".

Thank God for Michael O'Leary - Telling it like it is.

[Closer80]

Not so big on this bit:



“Ireland’s future success depends on being at the heart of Europe and our membership of the Euro. The European Central Bank came to Ireland’s rescue last year when the combination of appalling mismanagement by Bertie Ahern’s government over the past decade left Ireland hopelessly unprepared for the effect of the property/banking crisis and the recession which would, if it were not for Europe’s help, have caused a collapse of the Irish economy.

Yes they did, obviously, but i'm not big on central banking systems from what little i've read. :p

"The difference between Iceland and Ireland was not one letter, but rather Ireland’s membership of the European Union and the euro," he said.

That is a quote and a half.

[diar2me]

Not so big on this bit:



Yes they did, obviously, but i'm not big on central banking systems from what little i've read. :p



That is a quote and a half.

I think you only have to look at the people pushing for a no vote and laugh! Sinn Fein don't even have a coherent economic policy yet think they are in a place to make a strong argument, trade unions in favour are just a joke - they quite literally will have the IMF knocking on our front door very soon with their vested interests! And so on and so forth. I will be voting yes for a number of logical reasons and I just feel that the no campaign has got no strong arguments at least of truth!

[Cork All-Star]

Quick query folks.

I'll be out of the country for Lisbon II. I won't get to vote will I!

[Professor Piehead]

I think you only have to look at the people pushing for a no vote and laugh! Sinn Fein don't even have a coherent economic policy yet think they are in a place to make a strong argument, trade unions in favour are just a joke - they quite literally will have the IMF knocking on our front door very soon with their vested interests! And so on and so forth. I will be voting yes for a number of logical reasons and I just feel that the no campaign has got no strong arguments at least of truth!

The same sort of people as yourself thought Hitler was a nice chap and that there was going to be 'peace in our time'.

You only had to look at the people pushing for a 'no Mr Hitler' and you could laugh.

[Cliff Barnes]

Michael O'Leary there on Today FM was great demolishing the naysayers "How many jobs have Sinn Fein,Socialist Workers Party,Unions,Trotsky ites,Leninists,South American Solidarity Party crowd ever created" ?

[Cliff Barnes]

I think you only have to look at the people pushing for a no vote and laugh! Sinn Fein don't even have a coherent economic policy yet think they are in a place to make a strong argument, trade unions in favour are just a joke - they quite literally will have the IMF knocking on our front door very soon with their vested interests! And so on and so forth. I will be voting yes for a number of logical reasons and I just feel that the no campaign has got no strong arguments at least of truth!

Those Sinn Fein idiots have urged a No vote for every European treaty since 1973.

They have a track record on stupidity.

[Professor Piehead]

Those Sinn Fein idiots have urged a No vote for every European treaty since 1973.

They have a track record on stupidity.

Of course it's far less stupid to contirbute billions of euro every year only for vast amounts of it to disapear without trace.

In fact, it's very clever to pay rich farmers for growing nothing and giving agri-businesses like Nestle billions of euro each year.

I'm stunned by the intelligence of throwing dead fish overboard while at the same time flying in frozen fish from Iceland.

I doubt even Sinn Fein's stupidity would cause as much human suffering and environmental damage as the EU's biofuel policy.

No Cliff, when it comes to stupidity, the EU takes some beating.

[Closer80]

of course it's far less stupid to contirbute billions of euro every year only for vast amounts of it to disapear without trace.

In fact, it's very clever to pay rich farmers for growing nothing and giving agri-businesses like nestle billions of euro each year.

I'm stunned by the intelligence of throwing dead fish overboard while at the same time flying in frozen fish from iceland.

I doubt even sinn fein's stupidity would cause as much human suffering and environmental damage as the eu's biofuel policy.

No cliff, when it comes to stupidity, the eu takes some beating.

:p

[doppellanger]

odds are shortening on a No on Paddy Power. It was at 5 now it's at 3.75.
(I use the European odds.)

[diar2me]

The same sort of people as yourself thought Hitler was a nice chap and that there was going to be 'peace in our time'.

You only had to look at the people pushing for a 'no Mr Hitler' and you could laugh.

Ok. Because I see merit in The Lisbon Treaty, suddenly me and my "type" can be compared to Hitlers supporters. Are you listening to yourself? You'd rather support the views of Terrorists (Sinn Fein), a group who will destroy Irelands competitiveness and are not doing anything but dragging our economy down (The individual trade unions opposed to Lisbon 2) and oh where do I start with the Socialist party? hhhhmmmm! I do not give 2 shits about the past, I care about the future and for anyone to think that voting no is not going to affect our strength within Europe is deluding themselves. I am not scare mongering here like the no voters but do you even realise how close we are to needing the ECB? This nonsense being thrown about abortion, neutrality etc etc is nothing but nonsense.

[Professor Piehead]

Ok. Because I see merit in The Lisbon Treaty, suddenly me and my "type" can be compared to Hitlers supporters. Are you listening to yourself? You'd rather support the views of Terrorists (Sinn Fein), a group who will destroy Irelands competitiveness and are not doing anything but dragging our economy down (The individual trade unions opposed to Lisbon 2) and oh where do I start with the Socialist party? hhhhmmmm! I do not give 2 shits about the past, I care about the future and for anyone to think that voting no is not going to affect our strength within Europe is deluding themselves. I am not scare mongering here like the no voters but do you even realise how close we are to needing the ECB? This nonsense being thrown about abortion, neutrality etc etc is nothing but nonsense.

Like most yes men, you read what you want to be there, not what is. Where did I say support Hitler?

Ireland's position in europe will not change after another no vote, if the EU club proports to be what it says it is.

Less of the nonsense.

[FutureTaoiseach]

BTW, can we have a poll on Lisbon? I am voting no. Since Spain voted yes to the EU Constitution, unemployment doubled to 18%. Article 6 of the TEU (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ :C:2008:115:0013:004 5:EN:PDF) as amended by Lisbon states that the Charter of Fundamental Rights (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Charter_of_Fundament al_Rights_of_the_Eur opean_Union#CHAPTER_ II._FREEDOMS) will have "the same legal value as the Treaties.":The Union recognises the rights, freedoms and principles set out in the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union of 7 December 2000, as adapted at Strasbourg, on 12 December 2007, which shall have the same legal value as the Treaties.

The Charter greatly expands the ECJ's jurisdiction over our lives, especially in the area of asylum and immigration. I regard Lisbon II as another conjob like Nice intended to facilitate a race to the bottom through unregulated importation of cheap labour. I don't blame the immigrants for the failed policies of the Government to inflate the construction sector through the creation of an artificial market of cheap imported labour, but I do blame the politicians./ The most recent Live Register figures showed approximately a 12,000 rise in the numbers of Irish unemployed, while the numbers of foreign-nationals actually fell by approx 132. That suggests displacement is ongoing in the economy.

Particular concerns about the Charter include Article 15, which could be used by the ECJ to force Ireland to allow asylum-seekers to work - something currently not allowed. In the current economic circumstances, displacement of Irish labour would increase, and asylum-claims would return to 2002 levels (11,000 per annum) when we last allowed them to work. A system intended for refugees must not become a system of economic-migration for those who failed to get permission to come to our shores. Otherwise, we are ceding sovereignty to persons who have nothing to do with Ireland and have no reason to consider Irish interests. What you also have to remember is that the UK has an optout from the Charter, which would make Ireland and Malta the only English-speaking countries in the EU to allow asylum seekers to work (which presently Irish law does not). That would lead to illegal immigrants resident in Britain travelling to Ireland and competing with Irish workers for work. A challenge to the Irish ban on employment for asylum-seekers is inevitable under Article 15(1) of the Charter. After the Chen and Metock cases, it is clear the court tends towards a liberatarian perspective on asylum, and I don't want that being rewarded with even more power in this area. I am opposed to racism, but I reject excessive Political-Correctness whereby the elites try to close down debate on a very important issue for most people.

Freedom to choose an occupation and right to engage in work

1. Everyone has the right to engage in work and to pursue a freely chosen or accepted occupation.

2. Every citizen of the Union has the freedom to seek employment, to work, to exercise the right of establishment and to provide services in any Member State.

3. Nationals of third countries who are authorised to work in the territories of the Member States are entitled to working conditions equivalent to those of citizens of the Union.

Article's 18 and 19 enshrine ECJ interference in our asylum-system:

The right to asylum shall be guaranteed with due respect for the rules of the Geneva Convention of 28 July 1951 and the Protocol of 31 January 1967 relating to the status of refugees and in accordance with the Treaty establishing the European Community.



1. Collective expulsions are prohibited.

2. No one may be removed, expelled or extradited to a State where there is a serious risk that he or she would be subjected to the death penalty, torture or other inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Article 18 will prevent Ireland withdrawing from the Convention if we believe it is being abused for economic-migration rather than by genuine refugees. Article 19 will effectively allow the ECJ to decide what constitutes a "serious risk" to the safety of the asylum-seeker and what constitutes "inhuman and degrading treatment". Furthermore, the significance of inserting these provisions into EU law is that they come within the ECJ's jurisdiction. As such, the ECJ will be determining whether it believes we are keeping to the Convention in individual asylum-cases. In affect, for all intents and purposes, we will be adding yet another layer of asylum-appeals on top of a system that already takes years in this country. No thanks.

Furthermore, Lisbon replaces the veto with Qualified Majority Voting in 60 areas. I also have concerns about the wording of the referendum legislation, which would allow the Government to surrender our optous Protocol from Justice and Home Affairs. Justice Frank Clarke, Chairman of the Referendum Commission, recently admitted in an article in the Irish Times that the veto is going on asylum and immigration. The relevant passage of the referendum legislation allowing the Government to surrender the optout Protocol (which has allowed Irish Governments to optin-out of common policies in JHA since the Amsterdam Treaty), also allows the Government to dismantly our passport-controls for travellers coming to Ireland from 25 countries, which will lead to a large increase in illegal immigration which the fatcats want. Here is the text (http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/bills/2009/4909/B4909D.english.pdf) (28th amendment to the Constitution Bill 2009) I am referring to, which would become Article 29.4.7 of the Irish Constitution if we vote yes: http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii81/kermit2008/lisbonreferendumword ing.jpg

Ireland is not a purely representative-democracy. We have a different history with respect to binding-referenda to the rest of the EU. Since 1937 we have been a hybrid direct-representative democracy where the people set the limits of the powers of the politicians within the framework of the Constitution via referenda, while the politicians themselves are free to act within that framework. We are not, and must never become, a purely representative-democracy. The people need the Constitution to rein in politicians who become corrupted by power and money to subvert the interests of the Irish people. Remember 1800 and the Irish Parliament voting for the Act of Union.

[Cliff Barnes]

Of course it's far less stupid to contirbute billions of euro every year only for vast amounts of it to disapear without trace.

In fact, it's very clever to pay rich farmers for growing nothing and giving agri-businesses like Nestle billions of euro each year.

I'm stunned by the intelligence of throwing dead fish overboard while at the same time flying in frozen fish from Iceland.

I doubt even Sinn Fein's stupidity would cause as much human suffering and environmental damage as the EU's biofuel policy.

No Cliff, when it comes to stupidity, the EU takes some beating.


Nothing whatsoever to to with the Lisbon Treaty.

There is no way that I will ever agree with Sinn Fein,UKIP and the British Conservative Party in opposing this.

[diar2me]

Like most yes men, you read what you want to be there, not what is. Where did I say support Hitler?

Ireland's position in europe will not change after another no vote, if the EU club proports to be what it says it is.

Less of the nonsense.

Read over your own posts before you make such remarks!

[Actin The Sham]

BTW, can we have a poll on Lisbon? I am voting no. Since Spain voted yes to the EU Constitution, unemployment doubled to 18%. Article 6 of the TEU (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ :C:2008:115:0013:004 5:EN:PDF) as amended by Lisbon states that the Charter of Fundamental Rights (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Charter_of_Fundament al_Rights_of_the_Eur opean_Union#CHAPTER_ II._FREEDOMS) will have "the same legal value as the Treaties.":

The Charter greatly expands the ECJ's jurisdiction over our lives, especially in the area of asylum and immigration. I regard Lisbon II as another conjob like Nice intended to facilitate a race to the bottom through unregulated importation of cheap labour. I don't blame the immigrants for the failed policies of the Government to inflate the construction sector through the creation of an artificial market of cheap imported labour, but I do blame the politicians./ The most recent Live Register figures showed approximately a 12,000 rise in the numbers of Irish unemployed, while the numbers of foreign-nationals actually fell by approx 132. That suggests displacement is ongoing in the economy.

Particular concerns about the Charter include Article 15, which could be used by the ECJ to force Ireland to allow asylum-seekers to work - something currently not allowed. In the current economic circumstances, displacement of Irish labour would increase, and asylum-claims would return to 2002 levels (11,000 per annum) when we last allowed them to work. A system intended for refugees must not become a system of economic-migration for those who failed to get permission to come to our shores. Otherwise, we are ceding sovereignty to persons who have nothing to do with Ireland and have no reason to consider Irish interests. What you also have to remember is that the UK has an optout from the Charter, which would make Ireland and Malta the only English-speaking countries in the EU to allow asylum seekers to work (which presently Irish law does not). That would lead to illegal immigrants resident in Britain travelling to Ireland and competing with Irish workers for work. A challenge to the Irish ban on employment for asylum-seekers is inevitable under Article 15(1) of the Charter. After the Chen and Metock cases, it is clear the court tends towards a liberatarian perspective on asylum, and I don't want that being rewarded with even more power in this area. I am opposed to racism, but I reject excessive Political-Correctness whereby the elites try to close down debate on a very important issue for most people.



Article's 18 and 19 enshrine ECJ interference in our asylum-system:





Article 18 will prevent Ireland withdrawing from the Convention if we believe it is being abused for economic-migration rather than by genuine refugees. Article 19 will effectively allow the ECJ to decide what constitutes a "serious risk" to the safety of the asylum-seeker and what constitutes "inhuman and degrading treatment". Furthermore, the significance of inserting these provisions into EU law is that they come within the ECJ's jurisdiction. As such, the ECJ will be determining whether it believes we are keeping to the Convention in individual asylum-cases. In affect, for all intents and purposes, we will be adding yet another layer of asylum-appeals on top of a system that already takes years in this country. No thanks.

Furthermore, Lisbon replaces the veto with Qualified Majority Voting in 60 areas. I also have concerns about the wording of the referendum legislation, which would allow the Government to surrender our optous Protocol from Justice and Home Affairs. Justice Frank Clarke, Chairman of the Referendum Commission, recently admitted in an article in the Irish Times that the veto is going on asylum and immigration. The relevant passage of the referendum legislation allowing the Government to surrender the optout Protocol (which has allowed Irish Governments to optin-out of common policies in JHA since the Amsterdam Treaty), also allows the Government to dismantly our passport-controls for travellers coming to Ireland from 25 countries, which will lead to a large increase in illegal immigration which the fatcats want. Here is the text (http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/bills/2009/4909/B4909D.english.pdf) (28th amendment to the Constitution Bill 2009) I am referring to, which would become Article 29.4.7 of the Irish Constitution if we vote yes: http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii81/kermit2008/lisbonreferendumword ing.jpg

Ireland is not a purely representative-democracy. We have a different history with respect to binding-referenda to the rest of the EU. Since 1937 we have been a hybrid direct-representative democracy where the people set the limits of the powers of the politicians within the framework of the Constitution via referenda, while the politicians themselves are free to act within that framework. We are not, and must never become, a purely representative-democracy. The people need the Constitution to rein in politicians who become corrupted by power and money to subvert the interests of the Irish people. Remember 1800 and the Irish Parliament voting for the Act of Union.

You know what?

All that stuff you've posted has convinced me even more that the less control the unelected bureaucrats and the "social partners" in Dublin have over our affairs, the better.


As for "Ireland," who gives a flying fuck?

Ireland is a mystical notion a con job perpetuated by the political class in Dublin and the unelected bureaucrats, and the media elite who all live within 30 miles of each other.

The golden circle in the Pale have repeatedly over the centuries dragged this proud city and county of Cork into penury and mortgaged our futures for a fast buck.

Vote YES for a stronger Cork within a stroger European Union.

[Actin The Sham]

Back in 2007, the German Ambassador to Ireland was "strongly rebuked" by the Government for comments he made at a function in Dublin. This was just before the economic crash, when the country was still enjoying the fruits of the "Celtic Tiger."

And just because the German Ambassador called it as he saw it, and correctly as it turned out, he was ridiculed and rebuked.

I remember thinking at the time that he was right. When I visited Dublin from time to time, the number of bentleys, ferraris, porsches, mercedes cl V12s, and the like was very high. This "in your face," ostentatious blatant display of wealth was vulgar in the extreme. Fashion magazines, restaurant reviewers, TV Gossip Shows, all primarily focused on the Dublin area and reminded me of the worst excesses of late '80s London. The difference was however that the wealth on display in late '80s London was backed up by real companies, and real assets. What was on display in Dublin was pure, unadulterated froth, perpetuated by people who happily compared a small peripheral regional capital within the European Union to the great cities of the world like New York, London, and Paris.


Here is an article about the ambassadors speech from the time:

Sunday Independent
Sunday September 16 2007

The German ambassador to Ireland has been handed a severe diplomatic rebuke by the Government after describing the country to visiting industrialists as a "coarse place" with a history "even sadder than Poland".

The ambassador, Mr Christian Pauls, poured scorn on Ireland's recent wealth where "junior ministers earn more than the German Chancellor" and "20 per cent of the population are public servants".

Mr Pauls, regarded as a senior member of Ireland's foreign diplomatic corps, made the comments in German to about 80 visiting German industrialists -- many of them potential investors in this country.

The Minister for Foreign Affairs is furious over the remarks made at Clontarf Castle in Dublin. Dermot Ahern ordered the Department's Secretary General, Mr Dermot Gallagher, to issue a formal rebuke.

Mr Gallagher had a frosty telephone conversation with Mr Pauls late last week. Senior Government sources told the Sunday Independent that it was made clear to the ambassador that his comments were "inaccurate, misinformed and inappropriate at a public forum".

Mr Gallagher relayed the Government's extreme disquiet. The dressing-down of an ambassador is highly unusual, and rarely used by Iveagh House.

The Government is particularly concerned the off-the-cuff comments made in a 15-minute address could harm inward investment here.

The Department of Foreign Affairs had no representatives at the gathering but was informed about the comments, which were translated into English in real time for the small number of Irish people at the gathering.

Among those present at the meeting was Dublin MEP Gay Mitchell, who told the Sunday Independent that he was astonished at the "tone and tenor" of the comments.

In his speech, which according to Mr Mitchell was "lapped up" by his countrymen, Mr Pauls also castigated the hospital waiting lists here, describing them as as chaotic and something which would not be tolerated in other countries.

In a wide-ranging portrait of Ireland's current state -- described by Mr Mitchell as "highly derogatory" -- Mr Paul also took a sideswipe at high wage demands here.

He told his audience of his amazement that local doctors who were offered posts at €200,000 a year in Irish healthcare had described the high salary as "Mickey Mouse money". The comments were greeted with strong laughter by the visiting audience.

Mr Pauls was speaking to members of the powerful German Federation of Buying and Marketing Groups (Zentralverband Gewerblicher Verbundgruppen e.V.) an umbrella organisation of the German economy representing the interests of more than 300 buying and marketing groups and with a total membership of 200,000 small to medium-sized businesses

"I was totally shocked by what he said. He even had a go at the former dominant position of the Catholic Church here and he said that Ireland had become a coarser place."

Mr Pauls also criticised the immigration policy of the Government, saying that Ireland appeared to have learned nothing from the experiences of Germany or the Nordic countries.

At one point during the Mr Pauls' address Mr Mitchell was so alarmed at the tone and content of the speech that he interjected saying out loud: "Mr Ambassador, I am the next speaker!" as a warning to Mr Pauls to moderate his remarks.

However, the interjection was greeted with laughter from both the podium and the audience and Mr Pauls continued.

Among the "amusing" anecdotes related by Mr Pauls was about a concert he attended at the National Concert Hall where an announcer looked for the owner of a 93 D car to move it because it was blocking an entrance.

"Of course no one moved. All the Irish are driving 06 and 07 cars. For all I know the car is still there," the ambassador reportedly said.

Mr Mitchell said, "What the ambassador said would have made Kevin Myers blush. If I said the same thing in the Dail I would be accused of over-the-top party political partisanship of a totally imbalanced nature. That it came from the German ambassador to a German audience, through the German language, and in Ireland was quite appalling. In my view he did a number on Ireland and the Irish."

Mr Mitchell said the ambassador also said that American visitors had stopped coming here because they were sick of the heavy traffic.

"He did not in any way qualify his remarks. In the whole thing he said only two vaguely positive things about Ireland, remarking that he was constantly telling visiting junior ministers from his own country that Ireland's new wealth was not just down to the huge investment from Brussels since we joined the European community," Mr Mitchell said.

He added that the ambassador stressed that Ireland had had a bleak time in the past in relation to famine and had a history "even sadder than Poland".

Mr Mitchell spoke after Mr Pauls and though he stuck to his prepared address on the theme "What makes Europeans strong" he responded tartly to Mr Pauls' speech in his introductory remarks.

He said to Mr Pauls that he would have had more respect for what he was saying if he had made them about the current Government rather than the Irish.

He added that Mr Pauls' view of Ireland might have been different if he had been here during the years when Ireland had to manage poverty rather than success and wealth.

Mr Pauls, who trained as a lawyer, was formerly ambassador to Canada and during a lengthy diplomatic career has served in New Delhi, Rome, Washington and Athens.


***

Having weighed up all the pros and cons, I know which side I am on: VOTE YES for a stronger Cork within a stronger Europe.

[Actin The Sham]

BTW, can we have a poll on Lisbon? I am voting no. Since Spain voted yes to the EU Constitution, unemployment doubled to 18%. Article 6 of the TEU (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ :C:2008:115:0013:004 5:EN:PDF) as amended by Lisbon states that the Charter of Fundamental Rights (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Charter_of_Fundament al_Rights_of_the_Eur opean_Union#CHAPTER_ II._FREEDOMS) will have "the same legal value as the Treaties.":

The Charter greatly expands the ECJ's jurisdiction over our lives, especially in the area of asylum and immigration. I regard Lisbon II as another conjob like Nice intended to facilitate a race to the bottom through unregulated importation of cheap labour. I don't blame the immigrants for the failed policies of the Government to inflate the construction sector through the creation of an artificial market of cheap imported labour, but I do blame the politicians./ The most recent Live Register figures showed approximately a 12,000 rise in the numbers of Irish unemployed, while the numbers of foreign-nationals actually fell by approx 132. That suggests displacement is ongoing in the economy.

Particular concerns about the Charter include Article 15, which could be used by the ECJ to force Ireland to allow asylum-seekers to work - something currently not allowed. In the current economic circumstances, displacement of Irish labour would increase, and asylum-claims would return to 2002 levels (11,000 per annum) when we last allowed them to work. A system intended for refugees must not become a system of economic-migration for those who failed to get permission to come to our shores. Otherwise, we are ceding sovereignty to persons who have nothing to do with Ireland and have no reason to consider Irish interests. What you also have to remember is that the UK has an optout from the Charter, which would make Ireland and Malta the only English-speaking countries in the EU to allow asylum seekers to work (which presently Irish law does not). That would lead to illegal immigrants resident in Britain travelling to Ireland and competing with Irish workers for work. A challenge to the Irish ban on employment for asylum-seekers is inevitable under Article 15(1) of the Charter. After the Chen and Metock cases, it is clear the court tends towards a liberatarian perspective on asylum, and I don't want that being rewarded with even more power in this area. I am opposed to racism, but I reject excessive Political-Correctness whereby the elites try to close down debate on a very important issue for most people.



Article's 18 and 19 enshrine ECJ interference in our asylum-system:





Article 18 will prevent Ireland withdrawing from the Convention if we believe it is being abused for economic-migration rather than by genuine refugees. Article 19 will effectively allow the ECJ to decide what constitutes a "serious risk" to the safety of the asylum-seeker and what constitutes "inhuman and degrading treatment". Furthermore, the significance of inserting these provisions into EU law is that they come within the ECJ's jurisdiction. As such, the ECJ will be determining whether it believes we are keeping to the Convention in individual asylum-cases. In affect, for all intents and purposes, we will be adding yet another layer of asylum-appeals on top of a system that already takes years in this country. No thanks.

Furthermore, Lisbon replaces the veto with Qualified Majority Voting in 60 areas. I also have concerns about the wording of the referendum legislation, which would allow the Government to surrender our optous Protocol from Justice and Home Affairs. Justice Frank Clarke, Chairman of the Referendum Commission, recently admitted in an article in the Irish Times that the veto is going on asylum and immigration. The relevant passage of the referendum legislation allowing the Government to surrender the optout Protocol (which has allowed Irish Governments to optin-out of common policies in JHA since the Amsterdam Treaty), also allows the Government to dismantly our passport-controls for travellers coming to Ireland from 25 countries, which will lead to a large increase in illegal immigration which the fatcats want. Here is the text (http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/bills/2009/4909/B4909D.english.pdf) (28th amendment to the Constitution Bill 2009) I am referring to, which would become Article 29.4.7 of the Irish Constitution if we vote yes: http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii81/kermit2008/lisbonreferendumword ing.jpg

Ireland is not a purely representative-democracy. We have a different history with respect to binding-referenda to the rest of the EU. Since 1937 we have been a hybrid direct-representative democracy where the people set the limits of the powers of the politicians within the framework of the Constitution via referenda, while the politicians themselves are free to act within that framework. We are not, and must never become, a purely representative-democracy. The people need the Constitution to rein in politicians who become corrupted by power and money to subvert the interests of the Irish people. Remember 1800 and the Irish Parliament voting for the Act of Union.

Democratic Reform - Voting ‘yes’ means you get a more democratic, accountable and transparent EUYour elected representatives in the European Parliament play a bigger role in decision-making: 40 new areas need their approval (Articles 75, 77, 78 , 79 , 81, 82 , 83, 84, 85, 87, 88 TFEU)

Direct Democracy: Voting Yes means that the EU will have to respond to a petition signed by citizens across Europe. Issues you care about will be considered. (Article 11 TEU)

All Council meetings will be in public and all laws discussed (Article 15 TEU)

National Parliaments will have a greater role in oversight of EU decisions, with a formal process for reviewing all proposals. For instance, all EU regulation will be checked by the Oireachtas. (Article 12 TEU)

Every EU law will need to comply with the Charter of Fundamental Rights. The charter is a statement of values and principles that are already common to member states. It will only apply EU law. (Article 51, Charter on Fundamental Rights)

Read the relevant passages, and then come back and talk about democracy. The "no" side might have profited by sowing fear uncertainty and doubt last time out, but not this time. It's all there in black and white in the text of the treaty.

[FutureTaoiseach]

Democratic Reform - Voting ‘yes’ means you get a more democratic, accountable and transparent EUYour elected representatives in the European Parliament play a bigger role in decision-making: 40 new areas need their approval (Articles 75, 77, 78 , 79 , 81, 82 , 83, 84, 85, 87, 88 TFEU)

Direct Democracy: Voting Yes means that the EU will have to respond to a petition signed by citizens across Europe. Issues you care about will be considered. (Article 11 TEU)

All Council meetings will be in public and all laws discussed (Article 15 TEU)

National Parliaments will have a greater role in oversight of EU decisions, with a formal process for reviewing all proposals. For instance, all EU regulation will be checked by the Oireachtas. (Article 12 TEU)

Every EU law will need to comply with the Charter of Fundamental Rights. The charter is a statement of values and principles that are already common to member states. It will only apply EU law. (Article 51, Charter on Fundamental Rights)

Read the relevant passages, and then come back and talk about democracy. The "no" side might have profited by sowing fear uncertainty and doubt last time out, but not this time. It's all there in black and white in the text of the treaty.The Citizen's Petition is non-binding. Likewise, the powers for national-parliaments are non-binding. It's an advisory figleaf. The Commission must consider but is not bound to withdraw or amend proposed EU legislation just because 1/3rd of national parliaments object on the basis of a supposed breach of the principle of subsidiarity. As for the European Parliament, you are referring to the extension of co-decision. The problem with co-decision is that while the EP gets more vetoes on EU legislation, the price paid is the abolition of national vetoes on the Council of Ministers through expanded Qualified Majority Voting. When the veto is abolished, Ireland's say over its own laws drops from 100% to 0.9%. To form a blocking minority, you need 4 countries with over 35% of the EU's population between them. That means 4 Big States can block everything while 11 small states can block nothing. It's a powergrab by the Big States at the expense of the small states.

The Sun King also opened Versailles to the public but it certainly wasn't a democracy.

[doppellanger]

Democratic Reform - Voting ‘yes’ means you get a more democratic, accountable and transparent EUYour elected representatives in the European Parliament play a bigger role in decision-making: 40 new areas need their approval (Articles 75, 77, 78 , 79 , 81, 82 , 83, 84, 85, 87, 88 TFEU)


So the EU is not presently democratic, accountable or transparent. :crazyeye:

And the European Parliament is basically just a rubber stamping institution where the members get paid hundreds of thousands of our money plus expenses...:crazyeye : :crazyeye:

[Cos]

We need to think long and hard as to whether we want to give up control of our and our childrens future to a bunch of buarocrates ultimatly influenced by the money cartel and the "New world order" Neocons.

[Langer Dan]

Vote no to Libertas, o wait. :lol!:

[dreamweaver]

I see the tinfoil hats are signing up for the forum before the vote. God help Ireland. I'm glad I emigrated.

[Cos]

Just hope we manage to keep the IMF away, or were All fooked.

[Cliff Barnes]

Back in 2007, the German Ambassador to Ireland was "strongly rebuked" by the Government for comments he made at a function in Dublin. This was just before the economic crash, when the country was still enjoying the fruits of the "Celtic Tiger."

And just because the German Ambassador called it as he saw it, and correctly as it turned out, he was ridiculed and rebuked.

I remember thinking at the time that he was right. When I visited Dublin from time to time, the number of bentleys, ferraris, porsches, mercedes cl V12s, and the like was very high. This "in your face," ostentatious blatant display of wealth was vulgar in the extreme. Fashion magazines, restaurant reviewers, TV Gossip Shows, all primarily focused on the Dublin area and reminded me of the worst excesses of late '80s London. The difference was however that the wealth on display in late '80s London was backed up by real companies, and real assets. What was on display in Dublin was pure, unadulterated froth, perpetuated by people who happily compared a small peripheral regional capital within the European Union to the great cities of the world like New York, London, and Paris.


Here is an article about the ambassadors speech from the time:

Sunday Independent
Sunday September 16 2007

The German ambassador to Ireland has been handed a severe diplomatic rebuke by the Government after describing the country to visiting industrialists as a "coarse place" with a history "even sadder than Poland".

The ambassador, Mr Christian Pauls, poured scorn on Ireland's recent wealth where "junior ministers earn more than the German Chancellor" and "20 per cent of the population are public servants".

Mr Pauls, regarded as a senior member of Ireland's foreign diplomatic corps, made the comments in German to about 80 visiting German industrialists -- many of them potential investors in this country.

The Minister for Foreign Affairs is furious over the remarks made at Clontarf Castle in Dublin. Dermot Ahern ordered the Department's Secretary General, Mr Dermot Gallagher, to issue a formal rebuke.

Mr Gallagher had a frosty telephone conversation with Mr Pauls late last week. Senior Government sources told the Sunday Independent that it was made clear to the ambassador that his comments were "inaccurate, misinformed and inappropriate at a public forum".

Mr Gallagher relayed the Government's extreme disquiet. The dressing-down of an ambassador is highly unusual, and rarely used by Iveagh House.

The Government is particularly concerned the off-the-cuff comments made in a 15-minute address could harm inward investment here.

The Department of Foreign Affairs had no representatives at the gathering but was informed about the comments, which were translated into English in real time for the small number of Irish people at the gathering.

Among those present at the meeting was Dublin MEP Gay Mitchell, who told the Sunday Independent that he was astonished at the "tone and tenor" of the comments.

In his speech, which according to Mr Mitchell was "lapped up" by his countrymen, Mr Pauls also castigated the hospital waiting lists here, describing them as as chaotic and something which would not be tolerated in other countries.

In a wide-ranging portrait of Ireland's current state -- described by Mr Mitchell as "highly derogatory" -- Mr Paul also took a sideswipe at high wage demands here.

He told his audience of his amazement that local doctors who were offered posts at €200,000 a year in Irish healthcare had described the high salary as "Mickey Mouse money". The comments were greeted with strong laughter by the visiting audience.

Mr Pauls was speaking to members of the powerful German Federation of Buying and Marketing Groups (Zentralverband Gewerblicher Verbundgruppen e.V.) an umbrella organisation of the German economy representing the interests of more than 300 buying and marketing groups and with a total membership of 200,000 small to medium-sized businesses

"I was totally shocked by what he said. He even had a go at the former dominant position of the Catholic Church here and he said that Ireland had become a coarser place."

Mr Pauls also criticised the immigration policy of the Government, saying that Ireland appeared to have learned nothing from the experiences of Germany or the Nordic countries.

At one point during the Mr Pauls' address Mr Mitchell was so alarmed at the tone and content of the speech that he interjected saying out loud: "Mr Ambassador, I am the next speaker!" as a warning to Mr Pauls to moderate his remarks.

However, the interjection was greeted with laughter from both the podium and the audience and Mr Pauls continued.

Among the "amusing" anecdotes related by Mr Pauls was about a concert he attended at the National Concert Hall where an announcer looked for the owner of a 93 D car to move it because it was blocking an entrance.

"Of course no one moved. All the Irish are driving 06 and 07 cars. For all I know the car is still there," the ambassador reportedly said.

Mr Mitchell said, "What the ambassador said would have made Kevin Myers blush. If I said the same thing in the Dail I would be accused of over-the-top party political partisanship of a totally imbalanced nature. That it came from the German ambassador to a German audience, through the German language, and in Ireland was quite appalling. In my view he did a number on Ireland and the Irish."

Mr Mitchell said the ambassador also said that American visitors had stopped coming here because they were sick of the heavy traffic.

"He did not in any way qualify his remarks. In the whole thing he said only two vaguely positive things about Ireland, remarking that he was constantly telling visiting junior ministers from his own country that Ireland's new wealth was not just down to the huge investment from Brussels since we joined the European community," Mr Mitchell said.

He added that the ambassador stressed that Ireland had had a bleak time in the past in relation to famine and had a history "even sadder than Poland".

Mr Mitchell spoke after Mr Pauls and though he stuck to his prepared address on the theme "What makes Europeans strong" he responded tartly to Mr Pauls' speech in his introductory remarks.

He said to Mr Pauls that he would have had more respect for what he was saying if he had made them about the current Government rather than the Irish.

He added that Mr Pauls' view of Ireland might have been different if he had been here during the years when Ireland had to manage poverty rather than success and wealth.

Mr Pauls, who trained as a lawyer, was formerly ambassador to Canada and during a lengthy diplomatic career has served in New Delhi, Rome, Washington and Athens.


***

Having weighed up all the pros and cons, I know which side I am on: VOTE YES for a stronger Cork within a stronger Europe.


Thank God somebody brought this up.

Corks and even less so Irelands future is within a stronger Europe rather than failed Irish solicitors,teachers, nepotistic political dynasties in Dublin running this country into the ground.

[Actin The Sham]

So the EU is not presently democratic, accountable or transparent.

And the European Parliament is basically just a rubber stamping institution where the members get paid hundreds of thousands of our money plus expenses...

Vote YES then.

And Noel O' Flynn earned €190,000 in unvouched expenses since the last election.


(Look: next time you decide to cut and paste an argument from a little englander rag like D'Oirish Daily mail, try and weigh up all of the facts. The Dublin government is spending money on expenses for itself like there is no tomorrow. Most of this money is borrowed from the ECB in Frankfurt.)


Vote YES for a strong Cork in a strong Europe. Vote NO for more of the same from the unelected bureaucrats and the political elite in Dublin.

[Closer80]

Vote YES then.

And Noel O' Flynn earned €190,000 in unvouched expenses since the last election.


(Look: next time you decide to cut and paste an argument from a little englander rag like D'Oirish Daily mail, try and weigh up all of the facts. The Dublin government is spending money on expenses for itself like there is no tomorrow. Most of this money is borrowed from the ECB in Frankfurt.)


Vote YES for a strong Cork in a strong Europe. Vote NO for more of the same from the unelected bureaucrats and the political elite in Dublin.


I don't understand where people are coming from with this particular Either/Or.

Aren't those "unelected bureaucrats and...political elite in dublin" all in favour of the Lisbon treaty?

I think if Fianna Fail are in favour of Lisbon, then it can't be affecting them that much.

As well as that we are taking economic advice from the Germans, which is fair enough. Being economically sound != being completely morally justified. We learned that in 1938.

So the vote is still up in the air for me. I dislike both sides equally.

He added that the ambassador stressed that Ireland had had a bleak time in the past in relation to famine and had a history "even sadder than Poland".

Does anyone else think that this man shouldn't be talking about Poland?

[Actin The Sham]

I don't understand where people are coming from with this particular Either/Or.

Aren't those "unelected bureaucrats and...political elite in dublin" all in favour of the Lisbon treaty?

I think if Fianna Fail are in favour of Lisbon, then it can't be affecting them that much.


The less control over Cork the unelected bureaucrats and political elite in Dublin like Mary Lou McDonald, and Cóir, and Ivana Bacik have, the better.

For Cork and for Europe.


VOTE YES.

[diar2me]

I see the No side are up to their scaremongering again with their posters hoping to rope in the lower paid and working class who in the majority vote without reading the details of the treaty with ridiculous quotes of "Lisbon = Min Wage of €1.81?". These LIES are unfounded nonsense and just prove that the NO side have no argument whatsoever. If anything it has made me more convinced of the YES argument. Well Done Coir! Shower of buffoons!

[Professor Piehead]

Vote YES then.

And Noel O' Flynn earned €190,000 in unvouched expenses since the last election.


(Look: next time you decide to cut and paste an argument from a little englander rag like D'Oirish Daily mail, try and weigh up all of the facts. The Dublin government is spending money on expenses for itself like there is no tomorrow. Most of this money is borrowed from the ECB in Frankfurt.)


Vote YES for a strong Cork in a strong Europe. Vote NO for more of the same from the unelected bureaucrats and the political elite in Dublin.

In two years.

Where as Brian Crowley, MEP, got €400,000 in expenses for last year alone.

Yes, the facts are rather interesting.

[doppellanger]

Vote YES then.

And Noel O' Flynn earned €190,000 in unvouched expenses since the last election.


(Look: next time you decide to cut and paste an argument from a little englander rag like D'Oirish Daily mail, try and weigh up all of the facts. The Dublin government is spending money on expenses for itself like there is no tomorrow. Most of this money is borrowed from the ECB in Frankfurt.)


Vote YES for a strong Cork in a strong Europe. Vote NO for more of the same from the unelected bureaucrats and the political elite in Dublin.


I won@t be around to vote YES or NO. I will be in Germany, funnily enough. Just because the Dublin government spends wagonloads of money on expenses is no justification for another layer of bureaucracy spending even more wagonloads.

Strong Cork in a strong Europe makes no sense.

Where I live in Germany, I can go to the town hall for my dinner. The menu is subsidized so I pay less than four euro for a dinner. Ok, this money comes from the local government but anybody can eat in the canteen. Is there anything like that in Cork. Or do you think the money is better spent on paying a ceremonial lord mayor over a hundred thousand a year?

Will local government be made any more accountable by accepting Lisbon? I don't think so.

If you want to live in a pseudo-Germany, albeit one without the cheap dinners or talented local politicians, vote YES.

[doppellanger]

In two years.

Where as Brian Crowley, MEP, got €400,000 in expenses for last year alone.

Yes, the facts are rather interesting.

In fairness, Brian Crowley is a disarmingly nice fellow.

[Professor Piehead]

In fairness, Brian Crowley is a disarmingly nice fellow.

I'm not saying he isn't, just pointing out the gulf in expenses.

The EU is riddled with corruption and theft, it makes Ireland look like paragon of virtue.

[Closer80]

The less control over Cork the unelected bureaucrats and political elite in Dublin like Mary Lou McDonald, and Cóir, and Ivana Bacik have, the better.

For Cork and for Europe.


VOTE YES.

I don't understand how pushing the centre of control even further away, and giving ourselves less of a say is going to change anything?

The yes side seems to be of the opinion that the "bureaucrats and political elite" are suddenly going to disappear, when in fact lisbon just makes them stronger, hence the call to vote Yes.


On the other hand Coir, and the scaremongering is as bullshitty. I just think both sides have the weakest arguments. Pisses me off.

[diar2me]

I don't understand how pushing the centre of control even further away, and giving ourselves less of a say is going to change anything?

The yes side seems to be of the opinion that the "bureaucrats and political elite" are suddenly going to disappear, when in fact lisbon just makes them stronger, hence the call to vote Yes.


On the other hand Coir, and the scaremongering is as bullshitty. I just think both sides have the weakest arguments. Pisses me off.

Correction, Coir don't even have an argument it seems. Dick Roche took one of their fellas apart this morning on the radio! They are a joke!

[dreamweaver]

Dick Roche took someone apart. I've heard it all now. This Cóir crowd must be bad.

[eoinwalsh]

just vote YES. Ireland is getting by on European money and if Ireland votes no there's a strong chance that the European central bank will just say "fuck them" and withdraw their support and then we are totally fucked. If that happens, the IMF will have to take control and things will be a lot worse than what cóir are saying they will be like.

[Professor Piehead]

Correction, Coir don't even have an argument it seems. Dick Roche took one of their fellas apart this morning on the radio! They are a joke!

Dick 'THE IRISH PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN' Roche?

“It is foolhardy to talk about another referendum at this stage unless something fundamental changes. To attempt to rerun a referendum as a means of reversing the democratic decision taken by the people would be rightly regarded as an affront. Something fundamental will have to be changed in the Nice treaty before we can even contemplate putting it before the people again.”


Here's the rest....

“So far as the Nice Treaty is concerned, the Irish people have spoken and, like it or lump it, the Commission and its President have to accept it. They should do so with more good grace than they have shown in the recent past?

The Nice Treaty, no matter what its good intentions, is a document that has been democratically tested in only one Member State, and that is Ireland. It failed to meet the democratic test in this nation. It is an arrogance for any politician, either here or any Commissioner in Europe, to ignore the fundamental fact that the Irish people have spoken with some clarity on the matter. Yet last night the President of the Commission suggested that somehow or other the Irish people’s will can be undone. If the Commission, its leaders or the Governments of other European states decide to sweep democracy aside, we must ask on what basis is the future of Europe to be built?

Over the past two days I attended a meeting of the interim European Security and Defence Assembly. I was amazed and gratified in equal measure at the response by European parliamentarians from 28 different European nations to the Irish referendum. It was an interesting and extraordinary eye-opener. There was no finger-wagging or suggestion that our people had been wrong or were confused; rather there was a degree of admiration for the decision the Irish had made. Speakers from the United Kingdom to Slovenia to Greece spoke on the issue. They indicated their support for the right of the Irish people to make a decision on this matter. They were by no means all Euro-sceptics. Speakers from a number of countries both within and outside the Union indicated that the Irish people by its vote reflected a common view and concern that now exists both within the EU and in those states most proximate to the EU. Members from the EU states who contributed directly in the debate or who spoke privately to the Irish delegation members indicated that it was their view - I made an effort to do a straw poll - that referenda on the Nice Treaty as it currently stands, if held in other member states, would meet with the same public response as in Ireland.

There is something distinctly odd about democratic states attempting to take decisions that are out of line with the sentiment of their citizens. The gulf that exists between the citizens of Europe and the institutions, the commissioners and the bureaucrats who are now driving the Union, is nowhere more visible than in the area of peace, security and defence. In the run-up to the Nice Treaty the European Council decided, quite incredibly, that somehow the European Union could now take charge of peace, security and defence issues across the continent of Europe both within and outside the Union?

The issues raised by the rejection of the Nice Treaty in the referendum are of a fundamental nature. I have listened with some dismay to today’s debate and the debate that has taken place in the weeks since the referendum. Many in the political leadership of the nation are more focused on making a political point about the referendum than on truly addressing the core issues behind the judgement passed by the people?

It is foolhardy to talk about another referendum at this stage unless something fundamental changes. To attempt to rerun a referendum as a means of reversing the democratic decision taken by the people would be rightly regarded as an affront. Something fundamental will have to be changed in the Nice treaty before we can even contemplate putting it before the people again?
The Nice treaty is a complex document which intends to achieve complex things. It was sold to the Irish people as a means of providing for the enlargement of the European Union. Last night Mr Prodi made it very clear that was not what the treaty is about. He did not, however, make clear precisely what it is about. He was saying, therefore, that the enlargement process could be achieved without the Nice treaty.

I mentioned the assembly I attended yesterday and the considerable interest shown in the decision of the Irish people. Some thought-provoking contributors indicated that the opportunity afforded the Irish people should also be offered to the citizens of other member states. Maybe then Europe would get a clear message about what the people of Europe expect in the coming years.”

- Dick Roche, 2001

Well said Dick.


A little bit of history repeating itself. Although on this one he's probably been offered a future place at the trough to swallow his principles.

[Closer80]

just vote YES. Ireland is getting by on European money and if Ireland votes no there's a strong chance that the European central bank will just say "fuck them" and withdraw their support and then we are totally fucked. If that happens, the IMF will have to take control and things will be a lot worse than what cóir are saying they will be like.

That's an even worse reason to vote.

Vote yes, or the powers that be will ruin you.

Nah no duress there...

Why does noone ever mention the money we've generated for the EU?

[diar2me]

Closer and Prof, ye are great at coming up with ways to put down the Yes side but are failing to bring any credible arguments as to why to vote not, and prof I never claimed to be a big fan of Dick Roche, in fact I think he's a buffoon but to think that a buffoon like him can take apart the lead group of the no Vote says it all. Like to no-ers what are yer reasons for voting no, or like the other no-ers is it just down to the chip on your shoulder and the incorrect information the no side is providing ye with!

[FutureTaoiseach]

When Spain voted yes, unemployment doubled. According to Eurostat, the EU's own statistics office, Irish industrial output grew 9.3% in April-June, compared to a Eurozone drop of 0.6%. Furthermore, in the year up to April, Irish exports (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0625/breaking43.htm) grew 5% cmpared to a collapse of 29% in Germany (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8091119.stm) and 9% in the UK. The bottom line is that the economy is beginning to turn the corner, and we don't need to sell out our sovereignty and 1916 to recover. Since Spain voted yes, unemployment has almost doubled (http://rankingamerica.files .wordpress.com/2009/05/chart-on-unemployment-dec-08-mar-09-xls.jpg) to 18%. Vote no.

[Cliff Barnes]

When Spain voted yes, unemployment doubled. According to Eurostat, the EU's own statistics office, Irish industrial output grew 9.3% in April-June, compared to a Eurozone drop of 0.6%. Furthermore, in the year up to April, Irish exports (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0625/breaking43.htm) grew 5% cmpared to a collapse of 29% in Germany (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8091119.stm) and 9% in the UK. The bottom line is that the economy is beginning to turn the corner, and we don't need to sell out our sovereignty and 1916 to recover. Since Spain voted yes, unemployment has almost doubled (http://rankingamerica.files .wordpress.com/2009/05/chart-on-unemployment-dec-08-mar-09-xls.jpg) to 18%. Vote no.

Utter fuckwittery dribble.


1. Lisbon Promotes our Values:
Article 2 states: "The EU is founded on the values of respect for human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights, including the rights of persons belonging to minorities. These values are common to the Member States in a Society in which pluralism, non-discrimination, tolerance, justice, solidarity and equality between women and men prevail."

Article 3 (5) states: "In its relations with the wider world the Union shall uphold and promote its values and interests and contribute to the protection of its citizens. It shall contribute to peace, security, the sustainable development of the earth, solidarity and mutual respect among peoples, free and fair trade, eradication of poverty and the protection of human rights, in particular, the rights of the child as well as the strict observance and the development of international law, including respect for the principles of the United Nations Charter".

2. Lisbon Strengthens Social Rights
The Charter of Fundamental Rights contains the body of civil, political, social and economic rights agreed by the EU in 2000. The emphasis on economic and social rights, including workers' rights, is unique. At present the Charter has the status only of a declaration but when the Lisbon Reform Treaty is ratified it will be binding in Law.

3. Lisbon Respects Ireland's Neutrality
The Lisbon Reform Treaty does not alter Ireland's neutrality in any way. Under the Common Foreign and Security Policy all EU civil and military missions must be first agreed by all Member States and must be in accordance with the United Nations Charter. Ireland's proud record of participation in missions abroad under the UN mandate to places of conflict such as Kosovo, the Lebanon and, most recently, Chad will continue as before

4. Lisbon Deepens the rights of Citizens
Under Article 8 "every national of a Member State shall be a citizen of the Union. Citizenship of the Union shall be additional to national citizenship and shall not replace it".

Article 8(b)4 states: "Not less than one million citizens who are nationals of a significant number of Member States may table the initiative of inviting the Commission, within the framework of its powers, to submit any appropriate proposal on matters where citizens consider that a legal act of the Union is required for the purpose of implementing the Treaties".

Thus the Lisbon Treaty provides any citizen or group of citizens with an independent mechanism for placing an issue on the EU Agenda.

5. Lisbon Enhances the Role of the Dáil
For the first time National Parliaments of the Member States will have a direct role in framing EU legislation. At present the EU Commission proposes legislation and the Council of Ministers and the European Parliament frame it. Under the Lisbon Reform Treaty the Dáil and Seanad will play a key role in determining new EU laws.

6. Lisbon Protects Public Services
Article 136a makes legal provision for social dialogue and for recognition of the Social Partners. What this means in practice is that all EU laws will be "socially proofed" to ensure that they do not impact adversely on people's rights, on employment or on the wider community. For the first time there is a clear legal basis for EU laws to protect public services.

7. Lisbon Fights Global Poverty
Article 188 (d) states that "Union development co-operation policy shall have as its primary objective the reduction and, in the long-term, the eradication of poverty".
In Article 188J a strong commitment is given to Humanitarian Aid "for the purpose of third countries which are victims of natural and man-made disasters".

8. Lisbon Tackles Climate Change
The Lisbon Reform Treaty gives a legal basis for combating climate change for the first time. Thus the EU is taking on a leadership role in tackling the most serious environmental problem facing the world, namely, climate change.

Article 174 of the Treaty is amended to commit the EU to "Promoting measures at international level to deal with regional or worldwide environmental problems and, in particular, combating climate change".

[Padraig Mor]

{QUOTE=FutureTaoisea ch;2870873]The bottom line is that the economy is beginning to turn the corner[/QUOTE]

:lol::lol:
:lol!::lol!:

[Cliff Barnes]

{QUOTE=FutureTaoisea ch;2870873]The bottom line is that the economy is beginning to turn the corner

QUOTE]

Joke of the year :lol!::lol!::lol!:

SO if we vote Yes Unemployment will double from 15% to 30% - employers are just waiting in the wings for a yes vote to make 30% of the state unemployed.

1916 :crazyeye:

Madder than a box of frogs like that mad Coir Catholic Fascists

[diar2me]

QUOTE]

Joke of the year :lol!::lol!::lol!:

SO if we vote Yes Unemployment will double from 15% to 30% - employers are just waiting in the wings for a yes vote to make 30% of the state unemployed.

1916 :crazyeye:

Madder than a box of frogs like that mad Coir Catholic Fascists
Took the words out of my mouth, mad men facist lunatics, all we are short is for a guy with a moustache to be their leader! 1916 - don't make me laugh! Why don't ya put up a few images of the leaders of the time and try guilt people into voting yes cause these guys fought for our "freedom". Fuck off!

[doppellanger]

When Spain voted yes, unemployment doubled. According to Eurostat, the EU's own statistics office, Irish industrial output grew 9.3% in April-June, compared to a Eurozone drop of 0.6%. Furthermore, in the year up to April, Irish exports (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0625/breaking43.htm) grew 5% cmpared to a collapse of 29% in Germany (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8091119.stm) and 9% in the UK. The bottom line is that the economy is beginning to turn the corner, and we don't need to sell out our sovereignty and 1916 to recover. Since Spain voted yes, unemployment has almost doubled (http://rankingamerica.files .wordpress.com/2009/05/chart-on-unemployment-dec-08-mar-09-xls.jpg) to 18%. Vote no.

Die deutsche Wirtschaft ist doch jetzt wieder in Aufschwung aber die Irische wird lang unter Druck bleiben, unabhangig von Lissabon "JA" oder "NEIN".

[diar2me]

When Spain voted yes, unemployment doubled. According to Eurostat, the EU's own statistics office, Irish industrial output grew 9.3% in April-June, compared to a Eurozone drop of 0.6%. Furthermore, in the year up to April, Irish exports (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0625/breaking43.htm) grew 5% cmpared to a collapse of 29% in Germany (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8091119.stm) and 9% in the UK. The bottom line is that the economy is beginning to turn the corner, and we don't need to sell out our sovereignty and 1916 to recover. Since Spain voted yes, unemployment has almost doubled (http://rankingamerica.files .wordpress.com/2009/05/chart-on-unemployment-dec-08-mar-09-xls.jpg) to 18%. Vote no.

:lol::crazyeye::conf used: Ridiculous in the extreme!

[doppellanger]

:lol::crazyeye::conf used: Ridiculous in the extreme!

FutureTaoiseach ist ein ehemaliger Progressive Democrat. Er macht gar kein Sinn.

[jd26]

If there's one thing that bugs me in politics, it's the claiming of the legacy of dead people for a cause.

We have no way of knowing how any Irish nationalists from Wolfe Tone, on to Robert Emmet and beyond to the 1916 rising and the founders of the state would have voted.

Odds are that they wouldn't have all been on the one side anyway.

[Professor Piehead]

QUOTE]

Joke of the year:lol!::lol!:

SO if we vote Yes Unemployment will double from 15% to 30% - employers are just waiting in the wings for a yes vote to make 30% of the state unemployed.

1916 :crazyeye:

Madder than a box of frogs like that mad Coir Catholic Fascists

Talking of employers, good work by Intel to come out in favour of the yes side. Intel, who by an amazing coincidence are appealing a massive european fine. :rolleyes:

Well done also to Michael O'Leary who is now also firmly in the yes camp. Seeing as the government and europe scuppered his attempt to buy Aer Lingus, I wonder if they will at the next attempt. Anyway at least he's honest, 'I do nothing that doesn't benefit Ryanair'.

I wonder what changed his mind...

'It seems that only in the European Union, Ireland and Zimbabwe are you forced to vote twice. The vote should be respected. It is the only democratic thing to do,'

[Professor Piehead]

Utter fuckwittery dribble.


1. Lisbon Promotes our Values:
Article 2 states: "The EU is founded on the values of respect for human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights, including the rights of persons belonging to minorities. These values are common to the Member States in a Society in which pluralism, non-discrimination, tolerance, justice, solidarity and equality between women and men prevail."

Article 3 (5) states: "In its relations with the wider world the Union shall uphold and promote its values and interests and contribute to the protection of its citizens. It shall contribute to peace, security, the sustainable development of the earth, solidarity and mutual respect among peoples, free and fair trade, eradication of poverty and the protection of human rights, in particular, the rights of the child as well as the strict observance and the development of international law, including respect for the principles of the United Nations Charter".

2. Lisbon Strengthens Social Rights
The Charter of Fundamental Rights contains the body of civil, political, social and economic rights agreed by the EU in 2000. The emphasis on economic and social rights, including workers' rights, is unique. At present the Charter has the status only of a declaration but when the Lisbon Reform Treaty is ratified it will be binding in Law.

3. Lisbon Respects Ireland's Neutrality
The Lisbon Reform Treaty does not alter Ireland's neutrality in any way. Under the Common Foreign and Security Policy all EU civil and military missions must be first agreed by all Member States and must be in accordance with the United Nations Charter. Ireland's proud record of participation in missions abroad under the UN mandate to places of conflict such as Kosovo, the Lebanon and, most recently, Chad will continue as before

4. Lisbon Deepens the rights of Citizens
Under Article 8 "every national of a Member State shall be a citizen of the Union. Citizenship of the Union shall be additional to national citizenship and shall not replace it".

Article 8(b)4 states: "Not less than one million citizens who are nationals of a significant number of Member States may table the initiative of inviting the Commission, within the framework of its powers, to submit any appropriate proposal on matters where citizens consider that a legal act of the Union is required for the purpose of implementing the Treaties".

Thus the Lisbon Treaty provides any citizen or group of citizens with an independent mechanism for placing an issue on the EU Agenda.

5. Lisbon Enhances the Role of the Dáil
For the first time National Parliaments of the Member States will have a direct role in framing EU legislation. At present the EU Commission proposes legislation and the Council of Ministers and the European Parliament frame it. Under the Lisbon Reform Treaty the Dáil and Seanad will play a key role in determining new EU laws.

6. Lisbon Protects Public Services
Article 136a makes legal provision for social dialogue and for recognition of the Social Partners. What this means in practice is that all EU laws will be "socially proofed" to ensure that they do not impact adversely on people's rights, on employment or on the wider community. For the first time there is a clear legal basis for EU laws to protect public services.

7. Lisbon Fights Global Poverty
Article 188 (d) states that "Union development co-operation policy shall have as its primary objective the reduction and, in the long-term, the eradication of poverty".
In Article 188J a strong commitment is given to Humanitarian Aid "for the purpose of third countries which are victims of natural and man-made disasters".

8. Lisbon Tackles Climate Change
The Lisbon Reform Treaty gives a legal basis for combating climate change for the first time. Thus the EU is taking on a leadership role in tackling the most serious environmental problem facing the world, namely, climate change.

Article 174 of the Treaty is amended to commit the EU to "Promoting measures at international level to deal with regional or worldwide environmental problems and, in particular, combating climate change".

:lol!:


The eurocrats have caused massive environmental damage and human suffering through their incompetent attempts to reduce CO2 emissions by partially substituting biofuels for fossil fuels in EU transport.

Have a google if you don't believe me.

If you still want these cretins in charge of reducing the EU's climate impact after you've done so, fair play.

[diar2me]

:lol!:


The eurocrats have caused massive environmental damage and human suffering through their incompetent attempts to reduce CO2 emissions by partially substituting biofuels for fossil fuels in EU transport.

Have a google if you don't believe me.

If you still want these cretins in charge of reducing the EU's climate impact after you've done so, fair play.

Professor Ganley!

[Professor Piehead]

Professor Ganley!

So you think biofuels are a good idea then?

[diar2me]

So you think biofuels are a good idea then?

Clearly it doesn't matter what anyones opinions are with you. You have your mind made up and are fairly blunt and nonsensical about it all so won't even enter a debate, thanks Dec!

[Professor Piehead]

Clearly it doesn't matter what anyones opinions are with you. You have your mind made up and are fairly blunt and nonsensical about it all so won't even enter a debate, thanks Dec!

So you don't have a clue, just as I thought.

[diar2me]

So you don't have a clue, just as I thought.

That's it ya Mr.Ganley, original response by the way, maybe that or that I just don't want to get into a debate with Mr.Wikipedia on something he obviously has made up his mind on already!

[Professor Piehead]

That's it ya Mr.Ganley, original response by the way, maybe that or that I just don't want to get into a debate with Mr.Wikipedia on something he obviously has made up his mind on already!

So you still don't have a clue, just as I thought.

[Cliff Barnes]

So you still don't have a clue, just as I thought.

Piehead is Norman Tebbits moniker..........:ro lleyes:

A Betta Bwitain at the haaart of Euwope......:sleepin g:

Vote YES to annoy the Tories.....

[Professor Piehead]

Piehead is Norman Tebbits moniker..........:ro lleyes:

A Betta Bwitain at the haaart of Euwope......:sleepin g:

Vote YES to annoy the Tories.....

On yer bike.

[diar2me]

piehead is norman tebbits moniker..........:ro lleyes:

A betta bwitain at the haaart of euwope......:sleepin g:

Vote yes to annoy the tories.....

Indeed Sir.Cliffie indeed!

[thread_killer]

Utter fuckwittery dribble.


1. Lisbon Promotes our Values:
Article 2 states: "The EU is founded on the values of respect for human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights, ...

How the fuck was all that a reply to the post with the small few stats in them.

Christ boy, you're such a fucking yes man. Fair play. But I do wonder, are you an alt, or are you part of a paid-for campaign? How much are you getting paid?

I've never seen someone push some agenda like you have, with out conceding a thing.

Vote, NO, by the way - because they are trying to buy your yes vote with people like Cliffy, here.

[thread_killer]

Utter fuckwittery dribble.


1. Lisbon Promotes our Values:
Article 2 states: "The EU is founded on the values of respect for human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights, including the rights of persons belonging to minorities. These values are common to the Member States in a Society in which pluralism, non-discrimination, tolerance, justice, solidarity and equality between women and men prevail."



lmafo ... like the Irish minority, and their right to say no to reform. Well respected, that was. Also;

9. Lisbon gives you a bigger, thicker cock. And money. And three fast cars. Vote yes to feed the poor babies of the world, and stop pollution, and save Bambi's mother.

[Cliff Barnes]

How the fuck was all that a reply to the post with the small few stats in them.

Christ boy, you're such a fucking yes man. Fair play. But I do wonder, are you an alt, or are you part of a paid-for campaign? How much are you getting paid?

I've never seen someone push some agenda like you have, with out conceding a thing.

Vote, NO, by the way - because they are trying to buy your yes vote with people like Cliffy, here.

Hardly.

Just I tend to disagree with any cabal of Liebertas,Sinn Fein,UKIP,COIR Catholic Fascists and the Tory party who would have this place stuck in the 1950's.

Its that simple.

[Cliff Barnes]

:-)

[diar2me]

I am voting no cause those feckers are robbing our freedom that "WE" fought for so hard, they want us to kill babies and want to destroy the planet :rolleyes:

[thread_killer]

Hardly.

Just I tend to disagree with any cabal of Liebertas,Sinn Fein,UKIP,COIR Catholic Fascists and the Tory party who would have this place stuck in the 1950's.

Its that simple.

Agreed. But there is more than one way to progress. There are also many wrong ways. Lisbon yes or no aside, the whole circus surrounding it, the 'process' if you will, is fucking deplorable. Talk about 1950's approach to politicing, eeh? Eeh? Yeah. Think about that.

Also, I still reckon you're getting a little something in to your pocket, if not, then 1) you should be and 2) surely you must already belong to one of these parties, and are therefore doing this for free, because that is what being a party member is all about!

There would be no scandal, no shame or dishonour, in being paid for your work. Everyone should get paid for their work. Makes it clearer, for all, to see where you stand and what your actual position is - at least there's clear cut laws for advertisers of products. Also, would put a quantifiable value on your work done here, on this topic, instead of gentleman's club-style back patting.

1950's, huzzah!

Toe the line, bruther.

[thread_killer]

Edit: It's never that simple. Nothing ever is.

Claiming it is, makes me think even more, that it's totally, like, not, lol!

[jd26]

Guys,

Seeing that I'm not getting enough time to spend in this thread I'll give you a warning.

Of all the people coming on here advocating a no vote, thread_killer is the one who actually knows what he's talking about. He can't just be dismissed into the tinfoil hat or loony left/rabid right brigade.

So, I doubt the dismissive attitude will do any good here.

On the other hand, the fact he's back contributing might mean we can have a real debate on the issues instead of on some of the weirder obsessions of some posters.

[Coople]

From the cóir website:



"People you’ve never voted for are interfering in your life:
• threatening carbon taxes
• banning patio heaters
• recording your e-mails and internet visits


Keep the power to decide : Vote NO to Lisbon"


:lol:


I for one would welcome the introduction of carbon taxes. At least then we might have a proper debate about why it is that 90% of our energy is dependent on fossil fuels.


Patio heaters.............

[Coople]

More serious from the Cóir website:

"To feed the construction boom which overheated our economy the government agreed to allow unrestricted immigration from EU member states into Ireland. It’s crucial that we keep control of our immigration policy. Ireland has welcomed migrant workers but as unemployment rises daily we need to keep the right to close our borders."

This has nothing whatsoever to do with Lisbon.


And what does Cóir suggest we do? Send these "migrant workers" back? And what about the largest group of immigrants in Ireland? The 432,000 British people who live in the Republic?

Do we send those back as well?

Or are they being selective, and determining who will go and who will stay on the basis of race?

Where do we draw the line?

[jd26]

• recording your e-mails and internet visits



IIRC the government's rules on this were deemed too strict by the EU and we had to relax them. It's not that the EU said snooping had to take place.

[jd26]

The Bill reduces the time for which telephone data can be retained from three years under the existing law to two, the maximum allowed under the EU directive. Internet data will be retained by service providers for 12 months.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0714/1224250637782.html

Fortunately, I have to know stuff like this for my job. Otherwise they might get away with their insane claims.

[kh1152]

I have a question. Now I'm neither a "spooky leftie" nor do I have any special interests, so I'm asking this as an irish citizen.

We are having a referendum because legally we have to as we are changing our constitution, right?

And we are changing our consitution to say that it can't find anything in Lisbon unlawful (as well as putting in some of the protocols etc).

Does this mean that we will never need another referendum on Europe?

[jd26]

No

It's arguable whether we needed a referendum on Lisbon anyway considering that it doesn't seem to fall foul of the Crotty judgement on foreseeability. Lisbon primarily deals with changes to the way decisions are made, rather than the ability to make decisions. In fact, the government signs numerous international treaties a year that the population has never heard of, never mind voted on.

Currently, under Irish law, we have to change the constitution if the changes brought in by a European Treaty were changes that were unforeseeable at the time of a previous constitutional change. In general, this would mean if we were to cede decision making in some area from the Dail to the EU.

So to transfer decision making in an area not touched by the EU at present, we would still need a referendum.

[kh1152]

Just a thought on that, wouldn't it be better to put in the exact changes that Lisbon will make rather than a general "whatever Lisbon says goes" line.

At least then we'll know how our consitution is effected and we'll be secure that the constitution will still be there to protect our rights?

[jd26]

I suppose the question is where would you stop with that.

The Lisbon Treaty is a very long document and it makes lots of small changes as well as a small number of substantial ones.

Certainly in terms of how it should be written into law, the current proposal makes most sense as its consistent with how we've done it previously.

There is possibly a case to be made that the referendum commission should produce a document along the lines you suggest. In the last campaign, their document tried to sum up the arguments in favour of and against certain changes, rather than explaining what the changes were and telling readers to make up their own mind.

[doppellanger]

What it boils down to is "Do you trust the Germans?"

[kh1152]

Playing devils advocate for the no side for a second; The last time we were told #
1. No renegotiation - this is it, take or leave it (but trust us, just take it)
2. If we don't take it we'll suffer hell fire from Europe

Around the same time we were told our economy was based on sound economics and we'll have a soft landing.

Now we have renegotiated (well if you believe the protocols are legal), Europe had a hissy-fit for a few days but got over it, oh yes, and our pensions are down 35% and our kids have negative equity and no jobs.

Again, playing devils advocate, I think the no side can play a big "trust" card here, and if they do, then the government will be found going back to a "trust us" speech.

[kh1152]

What it boils down to is "Do you trust the Germans?"

Well the German ratification didn't according to plan either did it. I believe the senior judges had quite a say in how far Lisbon can go, and made it clear that no european outside of Germany was going to tell them what the German law was.

I don't believe Angie was too happy.

[Coople]

This is an interesting extract from a blog posted by a guy called Jason O'Mahony:

See, Europe isn’t the bogeyman. Change is.
When people lash out at the EU, they’re actually lashing out at the rapidly changing world
Europe is trying to manage.
Fishermen blame the EU for the Common Fisheries Policy. But their problems won’t end with an abolition of the CFP. The fact is we are depleting our fishing stocks far faster than nature can replace them, because technology has allowed us to. Someone has to manage that change, to ensure we have fish in the future.

Farmers complain of cheap imports, and blame the EU for letting them in. At the same time consumers complain that we won’t let enough cheap imports in, as do those looking for fair trade for the developing world. Someone has to manage those conflicting demands.

Factories producing CO2 in China can cause ice to melt at the North Pole, and flooding in the Netherlands and coastal areas all across Europe. Someone has to try to manage the solution.

Modern transport has allowed for rapid mass migration and indeed massive cross border crime from drugs to sex trafficking to terrorism. Someone has to manage our response to this.

Europe is not the problem. It is the response to problems that our parents, never mind our grandparents, never even dreamed they would have to deal with. Climate change? Climate change was opening a window to cool a room.

Al Quaeda was something you might expect to find on the menu at a Middle Eastern restaurant, possibly served with Naan bread. Yet now we face
problems all greater than single nations, a concept in itself which is relatively new.

As a result, we all feel disturbed that our traditional ways, with our national laws and national cultures and national borders can’t deal with these challenges that are just on a scale more vast than anything individual peoples have ever had to deal with before.

We know that drug dealers cooperate across borders, that diseases cross national borders, that floods and forest fires cross national borders, that climate change crosses national borders and yet why do we get so upset when Europe tries to suggest a cross-border solution?

Is it because Europe, unlike drug dealers, terrorists, or global
warming, actually consults us, whereas the other forces just impose their will upon us whether
we like it or not?

The issues that mobilise our people, of jobs and health and safety and security, are all issues that are no longer affected just by what happens within our national borders. Our lives are shaped by forces thousands of kilometres away, and that leaves us with a choice.

We can choose to do nothing, and stay with what we know and feel comfortable with, and just wait for those forces to overwhelm us. Or we can decide to create new ways of managing and shaping those forces to serve us, not the other way around.

The reality about the European Union is this: If we didn’t have it, we would have to invent it, and that is the unspoken fact the Eurosceptics will never tell you.


The Lisbon Treaty helps us do this. It is boring. It is complex. But is certainly nothing to be scared of.


European nations can stand alone and choose to fight the future, or we can, as a European Union, choose to control it.

That is the choice.



***

That seems like a good argument to vote yes.

[doppellanger]

Well the German ratification didn't according to plan either did it. I believe the senior judges had quite a say in how far Lisbon can go, and made it clear that no european outside of Germany was going to tell them what the German law was.

I don't believe Angie was too happy.

Exactly.

No-one else can tell the Germans what to do, but they won@t have any problems telling everyone else what to do.

[kh1152]

I suppose the question is where would you stop with that.

The Lisbon Treaty is a very long document and it makes lots of small changes as well as a small number of substantial ones.

Certainly in terms of how it should be written into law, the current proposal makes most sense as its consistent with how we've done it previously.

There is possibly a case to be made that the referendum commission should produce a document along the lines you suggest. In the last campaign, their document tried to sum up the arguments in favour of and against certain changes, rather than explaining what the changes were and telling readers to make up their own mind.

Where would you stop is a good question, what I would like is to be shown what it would look like, and explain why it can't all be put in. At the moment it's like signing a contract that says the seller can change his mind about the price, and if he does, then that's all perfectly legal.

Doesn't it just seem too "open ended" to sell to the people? People in rural Ireland will find it hard to buy a "pig in a poke". Maybe the poke should be opened so we can sell the detail. Irish people are intelligent enough to know the difference.

[Coople]

Exactly.

No-one else can tell the Germans what to do, but they won@t have any problems telling everyone else what to do.

The Germans are Europeans.

People from Leitrim are European.


Yet, people from Leitrim are not allowed to marry sheep; not because the Germans won't allow them, but because it is just silly.


Do please continue to cut and paste your "little Englander" arguments, they are the easiest to rebut.

[Coople]

Where would you stop is a good question, what I would like is to be shown what it would look like, and explain why it can't all be put in. At the moment it's like signing a contract that says the seller can change his mind about the price, and if he does, then that's all perfectly legal.

Doesn't it just seem too "open ended" to sell to the people? People in rural Ireland will find it hard to buy a "pig in a poke". Maybe the poke should be opened so we can sell the detail. Irish people are intelligent enough to know the difference.

Consider the facts.

The EU is a union of states and peoples which at all times must act within the laws as laid down by treaties and the European Court of Justice. The EU derives its powers from its Member States and not the other way around. This is specifically spelled out in the Lisbon Treaty.

The Member States are fully represented in all European institutions and decision making bodies.

The Treaties lay down very specific rules about how the EU does it business and what it can do. The Lisbon Treaty makes clearer than ever before, which decisions are taken at EU level, and which are taken at national level.

The EU budget accounts for less than 1% of the combined income of its member states.

The member state budgets themselves range from 35% to 60% of their domestic national income.

Membership of the EU is based on the free choice of sovereign states and peoples. It is a voluntary entity. Choice, not coercion, is the means of entry.

States are free to leave. The Lisbon Treaty for the first time expressly establishes a procedure to facilitate the orderly withdrawal of a member state that so chooses.


The ties that bind Member States together are the mutual benefits of prosperity and peace.

For smaller states there are enormous benefits in terms of international relations to a system that is based on the rule of law, due process and checks and balances that guarantees a voice for all states.

In terms of their interests and values, EU membership enhances the ability of its member states to deal with shared cross border challenges.

[jd26]

Playing devils advocate for the no side for a second; The last time we were told #
1. No renegotiation - this is it, take or leave it (but trust us, just take it)
2. If we don't take it we'll suffer hell fire from Europe

Around the same time we were told our economy was based on sound economics and we'll have a soft landing.

Now we have renegotiated (well if you believe the protocols are legal), Europe had a hissy-fit for a few days but got over it, oh yes, and our pensions are down 35% and our kids have negative equity and no jobs.

Again, playing devils advocate, I think the no side can play a big "trust" card here, and if they do, then the government will be found going back to a "trust us" speech.

Well, the attitude of Libertas and Sinn Fein was that the entire treaty would be open to renegotiation. That certainly didn't happen. The problem is coming up with such a broad treaty that can be agreed by 27 countries is a very long process that takes tears. What they have been able to do is tweak specific areas of the treaty that related to the concerns supposedly expressed by the Irish people.

I don't think anyone said we would get hellfire from Europe, but it has damaged our negotiating position. Whenever an Irish civil servant goes in to negotiate, their opinion is going to be less listened to because there's no guarantee that they'll be able to deliver on any agreement they make anyway.

In the longer term, there's the potential for other countries to just leave us out using the enhanced cooperation provisions.

While probably unconnected, I'm not sure pointing out how bad things have been since a No vote is going to encourage people to vote No again!

[jd26]

Where would you stop is a good question, what I would like is to be shown what it would look like, and explain why it can't all be put in. At the moment it's like signing a contract that says the seller can change his mind about the price, and if he does, then that's all perfectly legal.

This is confusing me now.

What exactly do you think can be altered after Lisbon that can't be altered at present?

And I'm going to need specifics about what is different between an EU governed by the rules of the Treaty of Lisbon and one governed by the Treaty of Nice.

As things stand, we have a framework for how decisions will be made, not a body of law. Similarly, when we elect a government, we don't know how they're going to react on a particular issue that hasn't arisen yet. We decide whether they're fit on the basis of the general principles they adhere to (and their ability to fix potholes).

[kh1152]

This is an interesting extract from a blog posted by a guy called Jason O'Mahony:

As a result, we all feel disturbed that our traditional ways, with our national laws and national cultures and national borders can’t deal with these challenges that are just on a scale more vast than anything individual peoples have ever had to deal with before.

It is boring. It is complex. But is certainly nothing to be scared of.


That is the choice.
**

That seems like a good argument to vote yes.

Interesting article. (It was a bit long so only a section is quoted, please go back a page or so for the full article)

Just on the vastness of scale point. This has happened several times before from Cartage to Rome to Attila to the Ming Dynasty to WW11. To say people can't deal with it is just talking down to people.

Is it boring and complex, maybe. If so explain it.

Also we already have Interpol working on cross country crime and europe have to consult us as to do otherwise would cross over the Democracy / Facist divide wouldn't it.

I'm sorry but this is just another "half scare 'em, half make 'em feel like backward culchies if they vote no" story. The yes side deserve to be represented better.

[Coople]

Interesting article.

Just on the vastness of scale point. This has happened several times before from Cartage to Rome to Attila to the Ming Dynasty to WW11. To say people can't deal with it is just talking down to people.

Is it boring and complex, maybe. If so explain it.

Also we already have Interpol working on cross country crime and europe have to consult us as to do otherwise would cross over the Democracy / Facist divide wouldn't it.

I'm sorry but this is just another "half scare 'em, half make 'em feel like backward culchies if they vote no" story. The yes side deserve to be represented better.

You're confusing me now.

Are you saying that the European Union is on a par with Attila The Hun, or The Third Reich?

If that is what you believe, then you should vote Yes to lisbon, and then go about organising a further referendum to enable us to leave the EU forthwith.

It appears to me that it is the European Union that you have a problem with, rather than the Lisbon Treaty.

The Lisbon Treaty for the first time outlines a procedure whereby states can withdraw from the European Union.

[Coople]

Interesting article. (It was a bit long so only a section is quoted, please go back a page or so for the full article)

Just on the vastness of scale point. This has happened several times before from Cartage to Rome to Attila to the Ming Dynasty to WW11. To say people can't deal with it is just talking down to people.

Is it boring and complex, maybe. If so explain it.

Also we already have Interpol working on cross country crime and europe have to consult us as to do otherwise would cross over the Democracy / Facist divide wouldn't it.

I'm sorry but this is just another "half scare 'em, half make 'em feel like backward culchies if they vote no" story. The yes side deserve to be represented better.


Also, if you wish to quote comments I posted earlier, please do not selectively quote them. I know you said it is a long article, but your selective quotation from it changes completely the general thrust of the article.

Also, if you find the treaty complex, then inform yourself. With democracy, comes responsibility. You are going out to vote in a referendum about an important issue.

This is a very informative site, which will give you all of the pros and cons from many of the various groupings:

http://www.toland.ie/Useful_documents.htm l

[Closer80]

Closer and Prof, ye are great at coming up with ways to put down the Yes side but are failing to bring any credible arguments as to why to vote not,!

I am not going to say this to you again. I am not on the no or yes side. I have the right to sit on the fence and weigh up the options until such time as i decide how i will vote. There is just as much incorrect information on the yes side as there is on the no side.
JD26, as i've already said, seems to have a far more rational and informed attitude than you. You tend to say "VOTE YES, COS LIKE ISNT IT OBVIOUS THAT WE SHOULD" without backing up anything. It is people like you that would make one doubtful on voting yes. It's so utterly cut and dry to you, when obviously it couldn't be.

[kh1152]

jd26 - My last post of the day so I'll address what I can, this will involve leaving some until another day unfortunately.

On the point of their opinion "going to be less listened to because there's no guarantee that they'll be able to deliver on any agreement they make anyway." You are correct and I concur. However they should never have gotten so far disconnected from their public to the point that they were not able to deliver what was promised.

On the point of "What exactly do you think can be altered after Lisbon that can't be altered at present?" and the behavior of our elected government - well that depends on the legality of what is done as decided by our courts, based on our constitution, as can be seen from the recent debate about whether the president would submit a new law to the supreme court to see if they concurred that it was constitutional.

However if our constitution finds all aspects of the Lisbon treaty lawful by default, then we lose the protection of the constitution going forward.

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.

[kh1152]

You're confusing me now.

Are you saying that the European Union is on a par with Attila The Hun, or The Third Reich?

If that is what you believe, then you should vote Yes to lisbon, and then go about organising a further referendum to enable us to leave the EU forthwith.

It appears to me that it is the European Union that you have a problem with, rather than the Lisbon Treaty.

The Lisbon Treaty for the first time outlines a procedure whereby states can withdraw from the European Union.

So you're one of the "if you don't vote yes then you're a stupid culchie and anti europe" people. Nice to meet you.

[kh1152]

Also, if you wish to quote comments I posted earlier, please do not selectively quote them. I know you said it is a long article, but your selective quotation from it changes completely the general thrust of the article.

Also, if you find the treaty complex, then inform yourself. With democracy, comes responsibility. You are going out to vote in a referendum about an important issue.

This is a very informative site, which will give you all of the pros and cons from many of the various groupings:

http://www.toland.ie/Useful_documents.htm l

Firstly did acknowledge the full article and advised others to go back and read it, I gave some of the article out of politeness to other readers. It doesn't change the context.

As for finding the treaty complex, I don't, I was quoting the article that you so kindly provided.

[Coople]

So you're one of the "if you don't vote yes then you're a stupid culchie and anti europe" people. Nice to meet you.

Please don't assume to categorise everyone who has a different opinion to you as being somehow stupid.

The expression "culchie" in this context is extremely irrelevant. I am merely trying to point you towards sources of both sides of the debate so that you can inform yourself and make an informed decision.

[Coople]

Interesting article. (It was a bit long so only a section is quoted, please go back a page or so for the full article)

Just on the vastness of scale point. This has happened several times before from Cartage to Rome to Attila to the Ming Dynasty to WW11. To say people can't deal with it is just talking down to people.

Is it boring and complex, maybe. If so explain it.

Also we already have Interpol working on cross country crime and europe have to consult us as to do otherwise would cross over the Democracy / Facist divide wouldn't it.

I'm sorry but this is just another "half scare 'em, half make 'em feel like backward culchies if they vote no" story. The yes side deserve to be represented better.

The highlighted part of your post intrigues me. I would welcome a further explanation of it from you.

[diar2me]

I am not going to say this to you again. I am not on the no or yes side. I have the right to sit on the fence and weigh up the options until such time as i decide how i will vote. There is just as much incorrect information on the yes side as there is on the no side.
JD26, as i've already said, seems to have a far more rational and informed attitude than you. You tend to say "VOTE YES, COS LIKE ISNT IT OBVIOUS THAT WE SHOULD" without backing up anything. It is people like you that would make one doubtful on voting yes. It's so utterly cut and dry to you, when obviously it couldn't be.

Would you ever be quiet, you're the biggest hypocrite I have ever come across. In the same speech you said "I have the right to......." and then said "You only are voting yes cause that's what i should do like". You don't know me and making such insinuations as I am meerly voting Yes because that's the done thing and that i am uninformed is quite offensive to say the least. I am voting yes because I object with everything the no side campaign for whether they be true or not. We have benefited alot from the EU, grants for projects like roads etc, grants for farmers, fishermen etc. I believe we will benefit from being more involved in Europe and not less involved. In the current state we are in I dread to think of how we would be without the EU. If you want me to get more in detail about it i WILL.

[doppellanger]

Please don't assume to categorise everyone who has a different opinion to you as being somehow stupid.

The expression "culchie" in this context is extremely irrelevant. I am merely trying to point you towards sources of both sides of the debate so that you can inform yourself and make an informed decision.

he did not accuse you of being stupid, he accused you of treating NO voters as stupid.

Guess you should read the text more carefully.

[doppellanger]

The Germans are Europeans.

People from Leitrim are European.

Yet, people from Leitrim are not allowed to marry sheep; not because the Germans won't allow them, but because it is just silly.

Do please continue to cut and paste your "little Englander" arguments, they are the easiest to rebut.

That was hardly a rebuttal. Do you trust the Germans?

I wouldn't trust Leitrim people that much but how many World Wars have they started?

And how many votes will Leitrim have compared with Germany in the post-Lisbon voting arrangements?

Interestingly enough, bestiality is illegal in Germany but not in Holland so some Dutch farmers have a nice line in hiring sheep out to Germans by the hour. Typical Germans - exporting their dirty business while everything is nice and clean in the Vaterland.

[Professor Piehead]

Well the German ratification didn't according to plan either did it. I believe the senior judges had quite a say in how far Lisbon can go, and made it clear that no european outside of Germany was going to tell them what the German law was.

I don't believe Angie was too happy.


She wasn't.

Mrs Merkel may well have to upset the German public soon....

If you ever wondered how it was that the German people were persuaded to give up their splendid, rock-solid deutsch mark to sign up for the new untested euro currency -- and it is something you might do well to give some thought to, since the pressure still goes on for the British people to give up their currency, too -- you would have to dig back into the Maastricht treaty, to something known as the 'no bail-outs clause.'
This was an assurance to the Germans that, if they went into the euro, there was no chance they would be called on to bail-out other eurozone countries if those countries got themselves into economic trouble. Since the other eurozone countries were going to include countries with historically-loony governments such as Italy, it was an assurance upon which the Germans insisted.
Trouble is, now that a whole bunch of eurozone countries are in big trouble -- Italy, Spain, Greece, Ireland, Portugal among them -- the German Chancellor, Mrs Merkel, has been indicating that of course no eurozone country will be allowed to be forced out of the currency because of its government's deficits, and of course no eurozone country will find itself unable to borrow money in the sovereign debt markets, no matter how bad its credit rating gets. She has let it be known that Germany and the other strong euro countries will bail them out. There has been talk of eurozone bonds being issued to cover the debts of individual states.
But how could this happen? What about the bail-out clause? There is a vague little clause in Maastricht, Article 100 -- and there are these vague little clauses tucked in all the euro-treaties, planted by the Brussels politburo the way the old Soviet KGB used to plant sleeping agents, to be called in for duty when they are needed -- which allows bail-outs for an individual member country following 'natural disasters or other exceptional occurrences beyond its control.'
Somehow the ever-closer-union Mrs Merkel wants to fudge the fiscal and economic stupidity of a eurozone country into something equal to a natural disaster such as a tsunami sinking the Netherlands. This 'assurance' is being used as part of the propaganda campaign in Ireland by the government to persuade the Irish to vote Yes when they are forced to hold a second referendum on the Lisbon Treaty in October: Brian Cowen's government are saying that if Ireland votes No it will lose all this guaranteed 'protection' from the other eurozone countries.
But just how stupid has the Irish government been? What profligacies are the Irish being told the eurozone members, in particular the Germans, will protect them from? At the moment, Ireland, a tiny eurozone country of just 4.2m people, is having to borrow €400m (£345m) a week just to keep its national head above water. Half of that borrowing is going into the bottomless pit of public sector pay. Because of this, Ireland is paying the highest penalty interest rate in the entire eurozone, a premium rate over 10 years of about two percent over German debt. If the Dublin government does not stop its fiscal haemorraghing -- the government will spend €60bn (£52bn) this year, but take in only €34bn (£29bn) in tax revenue -- at some point the sovereign debt markets may refuse to lend it any more money.
That is when Mrs Merkel and German financial support and maybe the eurobond would step in. Or so the German government, and the Irish government, want the Irish voters to believe.
But the German people, it seems, have other ideas. The Institute for Free Enterprise in Berlin, along with the Open Europe think-tank in London, have today published a poll taken by the German polling company Psyma which shows that just over 70 percent of the German people do not believe German taxpayer's money should be spent on helping bail-out countries such as Ireland or Greece. In short, the German people say 'Nein!' to bail-outs.
Here is a reaction to the poll from Wolfgang Muller of the Institute for Free Enterprise: 'Germany is already Europe's sugar daddy. This poll confirms that German tax-payers are not willing to accept an ever-increasing fiscal burden.
'Bailing Ireland out would send the wrong signals to governments in the EU. Any plan to try and "buy" Ireland's Yes vote to the Lisbon treaty with talk of a bailout must be strongly rejected.'
Bless the German people. If they hold to this resistance, the eurozone train could be derailed when debt forces a member state to crash out of the euro currency. I'd bet Italy would be the first out, followed by Greece. Even Peter Mandelson could not manoeuvre Britain into a trainwreck like that.

[Professor Piehead]

This is an interesting extract from a blog posted by a guy called Jason O'Mahony:

See, Europe isn’t the bogeyman. Change is.
When people lash out at the EU, they’re actually lashing out at the rapidly changing world
Europe is trying to manage.
Fishermen blame the EU for the Common Fisheries Policy. But their problems won’t end with an abolition of the CFP. The fact is we are depleting our fishing stocks far faster than nature can replace them, because technology has allowed us to. 1. Someone has to manage that change, to ensure we have fish in the future.

Farmers complain of cheap imports, and blame the EU for letting them in. At the same time consumers complain that we won’t let enough cheap imports in, as do those looking for fair trade for the developing world. 2.Someone has to manage those conflicting demands.

Factories producing CO2 in China can cause ice to melt at the North Pole, and flooding in the Netherlands and coastal areas all across Europe. 3.Someone has to try to manage the solution.

Modern transport has allowed for rapid mass migration and indeed massive cross border crime from drugs to sex trafficking to terrorism. Someone has to manage our response to this.

Europe is not the problem. It is the response to problems that our parents, never mind our grandparents, never even dreamed they would have to deal with. Climate change? Climate change was opening a window to cool a room.

Al Quaeda was something you might expect to find on the menu at a Middle Eastern restaurant, possibly served with Naan bread. Yet now we face
problems all greater than single nations, a concept in itself which is relatively new.

As a result, we all feel disturbed that our traditional ways, with our national laws and national cultures and national borders can’t deal with these challenges that are just on a scale more vast than anything individual peoples have ever had to deal with before.

We know that drug dealers cooperate across borders, that diseases cross national borders, that floods and forest fires cross national borders, that climate change crosses national borders and yet why do we get so upset when Europe tries to suggest a cross-border solution?

Is it because Europe, unlike drug dealers, terrorists, or global
warming, actually consults us, whereas the other forces just impose their will upon us whether
we like it or not?

The issues that mobilise our people, of jobs and health and safety and security, are all issues that are no longer affected just by what happens within our national borders. Our lives are shaped by forces thousands of kilometres away, and that leaves us with a choice.

We can choose to do nothing, and stay with what we know and feel comfortable with, and just wait for those forces to overwhelm us. Or we can decide to create new ways of managing and shaping those forces to serve us, not the other way around.

The reality about the European Union is this: If we didn’t have it, we would have to invent it, and that is the unspoken fact the Eurosceptics will never tell you.


The Lisbon Treaty helps us do this. It is boring. It is complex. But is certainly nothing to be scared of.


European nations can stand alone and choose to fight the future, or we can, as a European Union, choose to control it.

That is the choice.



***

That seems like a good argument to vote yes.

1. The best way to do that is to throw dead fish back into the sea. :rolleyes:

2. By giving rich farmers, landowners and agri-businesses billions of euro.

3. By enforcing a biofuel target that wrecks the environment (which incidentally increase the price of food).


'Europe actually consults us' :lol!:

Jason O'Mahony, you are a naive anus.

[Professor Piehead]

Would you ever be quiet, you're the biggest hypocrite I have ever come across. In the same speech you said "I have the right to......." and then said "You only are voting yes cause that's what i should do like". You don't know me and making such insinuations as I am meerly voting Yes because that's the done thing and that i am uninformed is quite offensive to say the least. I am voting yes because I object with everything the no side campaign for whether they be true or not. We have benefited alot from the EU, grants for projects like roads etc, grants for farmers, fishermen etc. I believe we will benefit from being more involved in Europe and not less involved. In the current state we are in I dread to think of how we would be without the EU. If you want me to get more in detail about it i WILL.

:lol!:




'We have benefited alot from the EU, grants for projects like roads etc, grants for farmers, fishermen etc'. The amount of fish taken from Irish waters more than covers the amount of 'grants' given to fill in a few pot-holes.

'In the current state we are in I dread to think of how we would be without the EU' :lol!: More yesman gobbledegook.

[Cliff Barnes]

Agreed. But there is more than one way to progress. There are also many wrong ways. Lisbon yes or no aside, the whole circus surrounding it, the 'process' if you will, is fucking deplorable. Talk about 1950's approach to politicing, eeh? Eeh? Yeah. Think about that.

Also, I still reckon you're getting a little something in to your pocket, if not, then 1) you should be and 2) surely you must already belong to one of these parties, and are therefore doing this for free, because that is what being a party member is all about!

There would be no scandal, no shame or dishonour, in being paid for your work. Everyone should get paid for their work. Makes it clearer, for all, to see where you stand and what your actual position is - at least there's clear cut laws for advertisers of products. Also, would put a quantifiable value on your work done here, on this topic, instead of gentleman's club-style back patting.

1950's, huzzah!

Toe the line, bruther.



I would'nt join any club that have me as a member

but here is another reason to vote Yes or No if you are that way inclined.

Lisbon Treaty. One Reason To Vote Yes.

What’s that reason?

A single word: Cóir.

A bunch of extreme-right Catholic lunatics who have for decades tried to dictate a Catholic agenda to the Irish people, interfering in every piece of legislation and every referendum we’ve had for the last forty years. A crowd of lying, bullying maniacs, led by an absolute tosser called Justin Barrett, and spoken for by an even worse bully called Niamh Ní Bhroin. Justin, you might remember, was once photographed on the flag-draped stage at a rally of the extreme-right German party, the NPD, a Nazi organisation. Justin has also addressed a meeting of the neo-fascist Forza Nuova party in Milan. Of course, in both cases he just happened to be there without realising that he was dealing with Nazis, and unfortunately he failed to take any clues from the marching brown-shirted skinheads at the German rally.


Niamh was formerly a Youth Defence stormtrooper, like Justin, but neither are youthful any longer and they now operate under the Cóir flag of convenience instead.

Isn’t it strange the way the words Youth and Nazi seem constantly to appear together? Youth Defence; Schutzjugend.

Niamh, you might recall, is the daughter of Úna NicMhathúna, who once famously referred to proponents of divorce as “wife-swapping sodomites” in a fit of authoritarian apoplexy when the electorate failed to follow her instructions. You will vote as I tell you, or suffer the consequences. Do I make myself clear?

Úna is also a member of Cóir. The brand might have changed but the horrible message remains the same.

Be under no illusions. These are serious political crazies we’re talking about, and if they ever came to power you’d rapidly find yourself crushed beneath the boots of their followers.

Both Justin and Niamh are stalwarts of the Schutzjugend, and these gobshites have tried to shout down all opposition over the years on social matters including divorce, abortion and homosexuality. I heard Niamh on the radio this afternoon, hectoring, lying and twisting facts in the usual cynical Youth Defence manner, and I have to admit, she helped to make up my mind.

There are many cogent reasons to vote NO to Lisbon, but if this crowd of gobshites are against it, then I’m voting YES.

[Professor Piehead]

I would'nt join any club that have me as a member

but here is another reason to vote Yes or No if you are that way inclined.

Lisbon Treaty. One Reason To Vote Yes.

What’s that reason?

A single word: Cóir.

A bunch of extreme-right Catholic lunatics who have for decades tried to dictate a Catholic agenda to the Irish people, interfering in every piece of legislation and every referendum we’ve had for the last forty years. A crowd of lying, bullying maniacs, led by an absolute tosser called Justin Barrett, and spoken for by an even worse bully called Niamh Ní Bhroin. Justin, you might remember, was once photographed on the flag-draped stage at a rally of the extreme-right German party, the NPD, a Nazi organisation. Justin has also addressed a meeting of the neo-fascist Forza Nuova party in Milan. Of course, in both cases he just happened to be there without realising that he was dealing with Nazis, and unfortunately he failed to take any clues from the marching brown-shirted skinheads at the German rally.


Niamh was formerly a Youth Defence stormtrooper, like Justin, but neither are youthful any longer and they now operate under the Cóir flag of convenience instead.

Isn’t it strange the way the words Youth and Nazi seem constantly to appear together? Youth Defence; Schutzjugend.

Niamh, you might recall, is the daughter of Úna NicMhathúna, who once famously referred to proponents of divorce as “wife-swapping sodomites” in a fit of authoritarian apoplexy when the electorate failed to follow her instructions. You will vote as I tell you, or suffer the consequences. Do I make myself clear?

Úna is also a member of Cóir. The brand might have changed but the horrible message remains the same.

Be under no illusions. These are serious political crazies we’re talking about, and if they ever came to power you’d rapidly find yourself crushed beneath the boots of their followers.

Both Justin and Niamh are stalwarts of the Schutzjugend, and these gobshites have tried to shout down all opposition over the years on social matters including divorce, abortion and homosexuality. I heard Niamh on the radio this afternoon, hectoring, lying and twisting facts in the usual cynical Youth Defence manner, and I have to admit, she helped to make up my mind.

There are many cogent reasons to vote NO to Lisbon, but if this crowd of gobshites are against it, then I’m voting YES.

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/5844/facepalm.gif

[eoinwalsh]

I am voting no cause those feckers are robbing our freedom that "WE" fought for so hard, they want us to kill babies and want to destroy the planet :rolleyes:

you are a langer

[doppellanger]

She wasn't.

Mrs Merkel may well have to upset the German public soon....
...
Bless the German people. If they hold to this resistance, the eurozone train could be derailed when debt forces a member state to crash out of the euro currency. I'd bet Italy would be the first out, followed by Greece. Even Peter Mandelson could not manoeuvre Britain into a trainwreck like that.

You should at least credit your source, Prof:
http://synonblog.dailymail. co.uk/2009/07/gott-im-himmel-the-german-people-say-nein-to-more-europe.html

"Bless the German people." :rolleyes: As if the Germans do democracy like that. Germany has a very short history of democracy. It's not like the UK and Ireland where there have been parliamentary elections for centuries and centuries.

Germany has a long tradition of autocratic rule with the occasional veneer of democracy.

[Closer80]

Would you ever be quiet, you're the biggest hypocrite I have ever come across. In the same speech you said "I have the right to......." and then said "You only are voting yes cause that's what i should do like".
I am going on the basis of what you have been saying, and you're misquoting me.


You don't know me and making such insinuations as I am meerly voting Yes because that's the done thing and that i am uninformed is quite offensive to say the least. I am voting yes because I object with everything the no side campaign for whether they be true or not. I believe we will benefit from being more involved in Europe and not less involved. In the current state we are in I dread to think of how we would be without the EU. If you want me to get more in detail about it i WILL.

I didn't say you were uninformed, or a meerkat. I said you are one of those annoying people who thinks it's so utterly obvious that the only choice is to say yes. It's not. There are options.

And you're still posting in blocks, so I'm still refusing to bother. It's like deciphering code or something. I've already told you that i couldn't give two shits how you vote. I just think your every post is a detriment to the Yes campaign.

You're the one making assumptions simply because i am undecided so far.

Closer and Prof, ye are great at coming up with ways to put down the Yes side but are failing to bring any credible arguments as to why to vote not,

I criticise both sides. Reread my posts, they're legible at least.

And again i re-iterate, aren't the people who got us in that state the people that are FOR the Lisbon treaty?

you are a langer

We have benefited alot from the EU, grants for projects like roads etc, grants for farmers, fishermen etc.

Farming was pretty much ruined by CAP and subsidies, fishing was ruined by CFP and the free fishing agreements. Yes we agreed to these, but should we have? I think if you see these things as benefits you haven't really done your homework. There are tons of reasons for and against Lisbon, and every post you make fails to mention ANY of them.

As for being offensive, did i call you a hypocrite, or tell you to stop talking? Do i tell you that your signature is obnoxiously offensive to my eyes? Not because of what it says, just it's size, colours and everything...

Christ.

[Coople]

You should at least credit your source, Prof:
http://synonblog.dailymail. co.uk/2009/07/gott-im-himmel-the-german-people-say-nein-to-more-europe.html

"Bless the German people." :rolleyes: As if the Germans do democracy like that. Germany has a very short history of democracy. It's not like the UK and Ireland where there have been parliamentary elections for centuries and centuries.

Germany has a long tradition of autocratic rule with the occasional veneer of democracy.



Pwned.


:lol:

[Rumpofsteelskin]

1. The best way to do that is to throw dead fish back into the sea. :rolleyes:

2. By giving rich farmers, landowners and agri-businesses billions of euro.

3. By enforcing a biofuel target that wrecks the environment (which incidentally increase the price of food).


'Europe actually consults us' :lol!:

Jason O'Mahony, you are a naive anus.

First they came for the fish,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a fisherman.
Then they came for the farm subsidies,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a small farmer.
Then they came for the polluters,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I was an environmentalist.
Then they came for me,
and by that time there was no one
left to speak up for me.

VOTE NO!!!111!

[Rumpofsteelskin]

I would'nt join any club that have me as a member

but here is another reason to vote Yes or No if you are that way inclined.

Lisbon Treaty. One Reason To Vote Yes.

What’s that reason?

A single word: Cóir.

A bunch of extreme-right Catholic lunatics who have for decades tried to dictate a Catholic agenda to the Irish people, interfering in every piece of legislation and every referendum we’ve had for the last forty years. A crowd of lying, bullying maniacs, led by an absolute tosser called Justin Barrett, and spoken for by an even worse bully called Niamh Ní Bhroin. Justin, you might remember, was once photographed on the flag-draped stage at a rally of the extreme-right German party, the NPD, a Nazi organisation. Justin has also addressed a meeting of the neo-fascist Forza Nuova party in Milan. Of course, in both cases he just happened to be there without realising that he was dealing with Nazis, and unfortunately he failed to take any clues from the marching brown-shirted skinheads at the German rally.


Niamh was formerly a Youth Defence stormtrooper, like Justin, but neither are youthful any longer and they now operate under the Cóir flag of convenience instead.

Isn’t it strange the way the words Youth and Nazi seem constantly to appear together? Youth Defence; Schutzjugend.

Niamh, you might recall, is the daughter of Úna NicMhathúna, who once famously referred to proponents of divorce as “wife-swapping sodomites” in a fit of authoritarian apoplexy when the electorate failed to follow her instructions. You will vote as I tell you, or suffer the consequences. Do I make myself clear?

Úna is also a member of Cóir. The brand might have changed but the horrible message remains the same.

Be under no illusions. These are serious political crazies we’re talking about, and if they ever came to power you’d rapidly find yourself crushed beneath the boots of their followers.

Both Justin and Niamh are stalwarts of the Schutzjugend, and these gobshites have tried to shout down all opposition over the years on social matters including divorce, abortion and homosexuality. I heard Niamh on the radio this afternoon, hectoring, lying and twisting facts in the usual cynical Youth Defence manner, and I have to admit, she helped to make up my mind.

There are many cogent reasons to vote NO to Lisbon, but if this crowd of gobshites are against it, then I’m voting YES.

Do you want to work for 84c an hour? DO YOU?
VOTE NO

[Closer80]

First they came for the fish,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a fisherman.
Then they came for the farm subsidies,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a small farmer.
Then they came for the polluters,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I was an environmentalist.
Then they came for me,
and by that time there was no one
left to speak up for me.

VOTE NO!!!111!

:lol!:

[diar2me]

:lol!:




'We have benefited alot from the EU, grants for projects like roads etc, grants for farmers, fishermen etc'. The amount of fish taken from Irish waters more than covers the amount of 'grants' given to fill in a few pot-holes.

'In the current state we are in I dread to think of how we would be without the EU' :lol!: More yesman gobbledegook.

More No man nonsense! You are so backward it's mindboggling! Are you saying that we would be in a better position if we didn't have the backing of the ECB? Can you clarify that for me please?

[smiley]

I came on here looking for a non biased educated view of the Lisbon treaty to help me to decide on what to vote. All I found was the usual one minded LANGERS preaching about how they are right and everybody else is wrong.

I'd like to vote yes and be pro Europe but I'm not in the habit of agreeing to anything that I'm not fully informed about and that is what exactly the Lisbon treaty is. I've got the pamphlets on how its better and seen the ads aobout how its positive but there's nobody telling what's being changed for me in a negative way.

It isn't a treaty to make the Irish happy there has to be something negative in there.

I'll be voting a BIG FAT NO for two simple reasons.
1)I'm misinformed and don't understand it fully an i'll openly admit it.

2)Brian Cowen said he didn't read it first time round so I assume he didn't read it this time either and the fat b**tard has the check to ask us to vote yes.

FUCK HIM AND FUCK YE ALL IM VOTING NO

[Rumpofsteelskin]

I came on here looking for a non biased educated view of the Lisbon treaty to help me to decide on what to vote. All I found was the usual one minded LANGERS preaching about how they are right and everybody else is wrong.

I'd like to vote yes and be pro Europe but I'm not in the habit of agreeing to anything that I'm not fully informed about and that is what exactly the Lisbon treaty is. I've got the pamphlets on how its better and seen the ads aobout how its positive but there's nobody telling what's being changed for me in a negative way.

It isn't a treaty to make the Irish happy there has to be something negative in there.

I'll be voting a BIG FAT NO for two simple reasons.
1)I'm misinformed and don't understand it fully an i'll openly admit it.

2)Brian Cowen said he didn't read it first time round so I assume he didn't read it this time either and the fat b**tard has the check to ask us to vote yes.

FUCK HIM AND FUCK YE ALL IM VOTING NO
That's the spirit!

[diar2me]

I came on here looking for a non biased educated view of the Lisbon treaty to help me to decide on what to vote. All I found was the usual one minded LANGERS preaching about how they are right and everybody else is wrong.

I'd like to vote yes and be pro Europe but I'm not in the habit of agreeing to anything that I'm not fully informed about and that is what exactly the Lisbon treaty is. I've got the pamphlets on how its better and seen the ads aobout how its positive but there's nobody telling what's being changed for me in a negative way.

It isn't a treaty to make the Irish happy there has to be something negative in there.

I'll be voting a BIG FAT NO for two simple reasons.
1)I'm misinformed and don't understand it fully an i'll openly admit it.

2)Brian Cowen said he didn't read it first time round so I assume he didn't read it this time either and the fat b**tard has the check to ask us to vote yes.

FUCK HIM AND FUCK YE ALL IM VOTING NO

I have no issue with no voters, that's what a vote is for. voting for something you believe in. But people who vote no cause of Brian Cowen or cause they haven't been told about it are just sorry excuses. Don't vote if you don't know about it! And does everything have to be spoon fed to you, if you are going to vote no, vote for a reason and have your facts!

[doppellanger]

I have no issue with no voters, that's what a vote is for. voting for something you believe in. But people who vote no cause of Brian Cowen or cause they haven't been told about it are just sorry excuses. Don't vote if you don't know about it! And does everything have to be spoon fed to you, if you are going to vote no, vote for a reason and have your facts!

People can vote for whatever reason they like, 'tis a free country after all.

[Professor Piehead]

'I've great belief in the discernment and good judgment of the Irish people'

Brian Cowen.

:lol!: :lol!:

[FutureTaoiseach]

Can we have a poll?

[Closer80]

People can vote for whatever reason they like, 'tis a free country after all.

Rep'd.

[leisuresuitlangjob]

I used to love History class. Was always proud of the country even if we fucked up every now and again. Imagine our kids/nephews/nieces/grandkids looking at all the heroics of the past Irish forefathers eg. hungerstrikers. Then imagine their embarassment of us saying yes after already saying no to a treaty. Wouldnt be so embarassing if they changed it. Our kids would look at us like the fuckers who made history class shitty and they will probably be living the brunt of our mistake. Vote No for fuck sake

[Langer Dan]

Vote Yes unless you're a fuckwit, simple as.

[jehearhaar]

I am a supporter of the European Union but I do not support the Lisbon Treaty -

1. They said if the Irish rejected the Lisbon Treaty that democratic decision would be accepted...yeah.

2. Having rode rough-shod over that myth, if we vote NO a second time we are still members of the EU - that doesn't change

3. France voted NO (as did The Netherlands) - Sarkozy just changed the constitution in order for politicians to push it through

4. I understand the legal reasons why other members countries are not holding a referendum but that doesn't change the fact that 95% of the European Community cannot voice its opinion...

how is that democratic?

5. I do not want a United States of Europe. I'm a blue-blooded, dyed-in-the-wool, proud-of-my-heritage-and-ancestry IRISH person...being European will always come second.

[Closer80]

Vote Yes unless you're a fuckwit, simple as.

:lol!:

Says the boy who won't even be here to vote.

[Langer Dan]

:lol!:

Says the boy who won't even be here to vote.

What's your point retard?

Seriously like?

[jehearhaar]

What's your point retard?

Seriously like?

No. What exactly is YOUR point?

[Closer80]

What's your point retard?

Seriously like?

:lol!: Is it not obvious from the post?

the boy who won't even be here to vote.

Memorise the following phrase: "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones".

It applies to so much of the shit you spout on here.

[Professor Piehead]

More No man nonsense! You are so backward it's mindboggling! Are you saying that we would be in a better position if we didn't have the backing of the ECB? Can you clarify that for me please?

Is this free money?

Are you Frank Fahey?

So what you're saying is vote yes or else. The franco-prussian axis knew very well what it was doing with the single currency.

Sieg Heil.

[FutureTaoiseach]

A FF Limerick West TD (I think Niall Collins), claimed on the Late Debate on Radio 1 some months ago that Sweden (which is not in the Euro) has a deal with the ECB to provide it's banks with liquidity loans. That is in spite of the fact that Sweden voted no to the Euro in 2003. Also, since Spain voted yes, unemployment doubled. There is simply no evidence whatsoever that Lisbon will save jobs - except for the politicians in Brussels that is. Also, George Lee said on Lunchtime last week that the ECB is not going to let the Irish banking system go down. You have to remember that for them to do so would mean they were undermining their own currency, which they share with us.

[Professor Piehead]

'one fact is absolutely and crystal clear — the people have made their decision, which must be respected. The Taoiseach made that clear last Friday and again today in the Dáil'

Dick Roche.

[blackforest]

Friday the 2nd October 2009 is the date set for polling...

Also heard on the radio that Michael Martin hasn't ruled out a third referendum if this one is refused a second time.

Why don't they just give up?
They are Euro-fascists, heard the gov are cutting back on CE schemes for disabled people because it is a waste of money, same ol same ol pick on the weak and aspire to the Euro-bully overlords who will keep the Irish politicos in well paid low maintenance jobs.