Rafa's squad development

[xvis]

Just throwing up the squads from 2003-04 and the present for comparison..

2003-04

Owen (24) Heskey (26)

Kewell (25), Hamann (30), Gerrard (23), Diouf (23)

Riise (23), Biscan (25), Hyypia (30), Carragher (26)

Dudek (30)


Bench: Kirkland (22), Cisse (22), Henchoz (29), Finnan (27), Baros (22), Murphy (26), Smicer (30), Cheyrou (25), Traore (24)


Cisse thrown in there as he was signed up. ..Henchoz shared with Biscan at the back

[xvis]

...based on appearances in the season, and ages thrown up to boot. Present squad to follow..

[xvis]

2008-09

Torres(24)
Gerrard (28.)

Riera (26), Mascherano (24), Alonso (27), Kuyt (28.)

Aurelio (29), Carragher (31) Skrtel (24), Arbeloa (26)

Reina (26)


Bench: Cavalieri (26), Agger (24), Benayoun (28.), Dossena (27), Hyypia (35), Lucas (22), Babel (22), Insua (20), N'gog (19), El Zhar (22)

[Swoosh]

What are you trying to show here?

[de mange]

em....... that there is still no strength in depth and that the current squad is probably marginally better than the 04 squad at best, despite huge investment

maybe?

[xvis]

What are you trying to show here?

I think it's exaggerated the progress he is making with the squad, ..and a bit disrespectful to the squad he inherited.


An idea has been going around that he inherited an ageing squad, ..but that isn't really the case looking at the ages bracketed, only two outfield players were over 26. The front six were fairly young, and with Carra going central and Finnan coming in, his back four was in good shape.


The four wide players have been no improvement, Riera, Kuyt, Aurelio, and Arbeloa for Kewell, Diouf, Carragher, and Riise ...a step backwards if anything I'd say.

Kuyt for Heskey also looks a mirror image.

Mascherano/Alonso has come in for Hamman/(Gerard moved), ..Torres for Owen ...Reina for Dudek... all improvements of at least 20%.



The benches aren't much different overall, ..some good players and some dross on both.


..just putting it out there for analysis, as I think it's exaggerated.

[Lewis Hamiltons Hat]

I think it's exaggerated the progress he is making with the squad, ..and a bit disrespectful to the squad he inherited.


An idea has been going around that he inherited an ageing squad, ..but that isn't really the case looking at the ages bracketed, only two outfield players were over 26. The front six were fairly young, and with Carra going central and Finnan coming in, his back four was in good shape.


The four wide players have been no improvement, Riera, Kuyt, Aurelio, and Arbeloa for Kewell, Diouf, Carragher, and Riise ...a step backwards if anything I'd say.

Kuyt for Heskey also looks a mirror image.

Mascherano/Alonso has come in for Hamman/(Gerard moved), ..Torres for Owen ...Reina for Dudek... all improvements of at least 20%.



The benches aren't much different overall, ..some good players and some dross on both.


..just putting it out there for analysis, as I think it's exaggerated.

3 players in his team in 05 would get into most teams. in his current team theres 6.

[MonTheHoops]

I think it's exaggerated the progress he is making with the squad, ..and a bit disrespectful to the squad he inherited.


An idea has been going around that he inherited an ageing squad, ..but that isn't really the case looking at the ages bracketed, only two outfield players were over 26. The front six were fairly young, and with Carra going central and Finnan coming in, his back four was in good shape.


The four wide players have been no improvement, Riera, Kuyt, Aurelio, and Arbeloa for Kewell, Diouf, Carragher, and Riise ...a step backwards if anything I'd say.

Kuyt for Heskey also looks a mirror image.

Mascherano/Alonso has come in for Hamman/(Gerard moved), ..Torres for Owen ...Reina for Dudek... all improvements of at least 20%.



The benches aren't much different overall, ..some good players and some dross on both.


..just putting it out there for analysis, as I think it's exaggerated.

You can apply the same to most teams. Compare Ferguson's now to 5 years ago, or his team from 10 years ago to 1994.

I thought it was the Liverpool fans who were 'obsessed'?

[STEVIEG]

You can apply the same to most teams. Compare Ferguson's now to 5 years ago, or his team from 10 years ago to 1994.



It would be hard to argue against the fact that the United squad of 2009 is a lot stronger than the one of 2004

and they contend more for trophies

Rafa's squad has "still no strength in depth and that the current squad is probably marginally better than the 04 squad at best, despite huge investment", as De Mange says

There is a huge myth bought by Rafas fans that they are developing into a stronger squad etc

Plainly not true

I hope he gets a contract for life

[STEVIEG]

3 players in his team in 05 would get into most teams. in his current team theres 6.

Name the 6?

He has a few good individuals alright but its a team/squad sport

[leftback]

Was in Newcastle at the weekend and went to the Riverside to enjoy the shambles that was Liverpool. As a Manc it was very enjoyable. Long may Rafa remain in that job ;-)

[xvis]

3 players in his team in 05 would get into most teams. in his current team theres 6.

Like I said in the pool thread ..I'd say they're about 5 players away.

I'd say the first team has improved in a good few positions, ..got worse at left back, but has generally improved in probably four positions.

The forwards for the inherited '04 team should probably be Owen and Cisse, as Heskey was quickly out the gap.



..but look at this years bench!..

2008-09,
Bench: Cavalieri (26), Agger (24), Benayoun (28.), Dossena (27), Hyypia (35), Lucas (22), Babel (22), Insua (20), N'gog (19), El Zhar (22)

Fucking hell! ..It's pobably got worse... (and Agger will be out the gap, and Hyypia is 35)

..I don't need to tell you about Baros who was off to the Euro's, ..Murphy '04 was better than Lucas, ..Djibi Cisse, ..Finnan, ..Henchoz.


That's a shocking bench selection from this year's squad. ..and after a lot of wheeling and dealing.

[xvis]

You can apply the same to most teams. Compare Ferguson's now to 5 years ago, or his team from 10 years ago to 1994.

I thought it was the Liverpool fans who were 'obsessed'?

There's a perception that Rafa has improved the Liverpool squad since he took over, ..I wouldn't overly agree.


United '09 and '04 are both strong squads, ..obviously a few of the starting eleven has improved in place of Howard, Phil Neville and Fortune, ..but this year would have starts for Park, Fletcher ..and Tevez.


Not sure if I get your point on the United side ..it's generally good squads you've mentioned.

[chabal]

There's a perception that Rafa has improved the Liverpool squad since he took over


that perception exists largely cos liverpool won the euro cup in his first season, despite his finishing 5th in the league that season more than 30pts behind the winners and 1 place lower than Houllier had done the previous season, a league placing considered so bad that the guy got the sack. if that cup final had ended with the halftime score then i would seriously doubt rafa would have lasted this long on merseyside, the performances are as boring now as under houllier

[Philby]

There's a perception that Rafa has improved the Liverpool squad since he took over, ..I wouldn't overly agree

Although strong squads with depth in the right areas are obviously key to progressing on multiple fronts its the first choice team that matters. For all Rafa's rotation he has a pretty fixed idea of who is in his first 11 (for big games especially) and IMHO that first 11 is a significant improvement on the first 11 that he inherited.

Credit to Xvis for going into some depth on this but the key point is that Rafa has made Liverpool a considerably more potent force in Europe and is making steady if not spectacular progress in the league too.

For me that is the key thing.

[Lewis Hamiltons Hat]

Although strong squads with depth in the right areas are obviously key to progressing on multiple fronts its the first choice team that matters. For all Rafa's rotation he has a pretty fixed idea of who is in his first 11 (for big games especially) and IMHO that first 11 is a significant improvement on the first 11 that he inherited.

Credit to Xvis for going into some depth on this but the key point is that Rafa has made Liverpool a considerably more potent force in Europe and is making steady if not spectacular progress in the league too.

For me that is the key thing.

the key is xvis has huge issues with liverpool and when yo have man utd fans worried about liverpool and trying to score pts off them things must be going in the right direction.

when was the last time you saw arsenal fans giving out about spurs? they no longer rivals so its only spurs have the hang ups.

[chabal]

when yo have man utd fans worried about liverpool and trying to score pts off them things must be going in the right direction.

Liverpool are sliding down the table, dropping points all the time on United. There was always rivalry between United and Liverpool, it is merely grasping at straws to say that rivalry means Liverpool are going in the right direction. I think United fans would be more worried if Liverpool had a stronger manager. Most people knew Liverpool had no chance of winning the league this season even when they were top of the table and well ahead of United. Liverpools title challenge is usually over by Christmas, this year it lasted til the end of January which isn't alot of progress, and we could assume Chelsea and Arsenal will be on better form next season which means this was Liverpools best chance under Rafa. It is time for a change of management at Liverpool if they are to be serious challengers for the league, and the english league is the priority on merseyside, not the champions league.

[STEVIEG]

the key is xvis has huge issues with liverpool and when yo have man utd fans worried about liverpool and trying to score pts off them things must be going in the right direction.

when was the last time you saw arsenal fans giving out about spurs? they no longer rivals so its only spurs have the hang ups.

Not as many people care about Arsenal and Spurs we are talking about the two biggest teams in English football, the two teams known throughout the world, teams who have a really good chance of winning the European Champions league most years these days too

btw i'd say Xvis is shitting himself:)

[chabal]

Rafa's lame title excuse

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/premier-league/rafarsquos-lame-title-excuse-1659105.html

[KD Langer]

xvis is right.


as usual.

[xvis]

the key is xvis has huge issues with liverpool and when yo have man utd fans worried about liverpool and trying to score pts off them things must be going in the right direction.

when was the last time you saw arsenal fans giving out about spurs? they no longer rivals so its only spurs have the hang ups.

I liked this post from one of the Guardian blogs re Rafa....

'There's a thin line between kicking a man when he's down and poking a corpse with your toe'





I've huge respect for Liverpool as a club.

...that's why I hate to see them hurting.

[Edmund Blackwater]

Never should have sold Crouch.
It surprised me that Rafa did it as he's a man who always liked to have a big man as the focal point of his attack.
Some people don't agree, but watching Valencia attack under him was fantastic. There were lads overlapping lads that were overlapping. Of course, they also had fullbacks who were capable of putting a decent cross into the box for the big man.

[Lewis Hamiltons Hat]

Never should have sold Crouch.
It surprised me that Rafa did it as he's a man who always liked to have a big man as the focal point of his attack.
Some people don't agree, but watching Valencia attack under him was fantastic. There were lads overlapping lads that were overlapping. Of course, they also had fullbacks who were capable of putting a decent cross into the box for the big man.
ya but wasnt that another team he largely imheritated?

[Edmund Blackwater]

ya but wasnt that another team he largely imheritated?
Pretty much.

[STEVIEG]

Yup but he still did well


The thing he did well, well one of the many things he did well there, was getting the smaller club to topple the giants of Real and Barca by geeing them up and getting them to believe they were better against the odds

he recently tried something similar in England with a typically pathetic excuse about lack of funds against United, Chelsea and even Arsenal

Liverpool are a bigger club than Chelsea and Arsenal and have won more than United

Rafas claims were embarassing but its par for the course

It was really smalltime mentioning Arsenal, who's manager spends a fraction of what Rafa does

[Swoosh]

Like I said in the pool thread ..I'd say they're about 5 players away.
I'd say the first team has improved in a good few positions, ..got worse at left back, but has generally improved in probably four positions.

The forwards for the inherited '04 team should probably be Owen and Cisse, as Heskey was quickly out the gap.



..but look at this years bench!..



Fucking hell! ..It's pobably got worse... (and Agger will be out the gap, and Hyypia is 35)

..I don't need to tell you about Baros who was off to the Euro's, ..Murphy '04 was better than Lucas, ..Djibi Cisse, ..Finnan, ..Henchoz.


That's a shocking bench selection from this year's squad. ..and after a lot of wheeling and dealing.


I'd say 4 1st team starting players at a push. A left back, right midfielder and left midfielder. A right back either ahead of Arbeloa or else as cover.

There squad is weak though. A good option instead of Torres in case of injury and a squad centre mid that can pass instead of having Lucas in that place.

I've stated many a time about the players I'd like to see at Liverpool.

Obviously money is a serious restriction.
I'd expect transfer stories around Glen Johnson, Keirrson this summer. Sky Sports have linked Raul Abidol from Valencia for £13M

If Agger goes I think Steven Taylor from Newcastle would be a good signing maybe even Jagileka from Everton.

I think Glen Johnson will come in this summer and compete with Arbeloa. Not exactly awe inspring but is a solid option at right back.

Arteta would be a great signing for the centre midfield area to give a reliable alternative to Alonso. I know he's injured but I still really rate the guy

Wide right is difficult as the attacking areas always cost the most. I think Riera would be a good squad option on the left, as Kuyt is on the right but not necessarily a first choice solution.

Keirrson was linked a couple of weeks ago and would be a great signing based on some of the reviews he has received.

I cant see Benitez buying another left back. Dossena has been a dismal failure and Aurelio is as injury prone as they come. With Insua coming up the ranks Benitez may opt to leave the status quo alone there but I do expect Insua to feature more.

[MonTheHoops]

It would be hard to argue against the fact that the United squad of 2009 is a lot stronger than the one of 2004

and they contend more for trophies

Rafa's squad has "still no strength in depth and that the current squad is probably marginally better than the 04 squad at best, despite huge investment", as De Mange says

There is a huge myth bought by Rafas fans that they are developing into a stronger squad etc

Plainly not true

I hope he gets a contract for life

That's exactly my point though. Ferguson's 94 squad was stronger than the 2004 squad (can't see too many arguments here) so does that mean that in 10 years in charge he managed to regress?

I think it's all bollocks to be honest. Benitez is a probably a good coach but a crap manager. Whether or not he's improved the squad doesn't matter. Look at the squad Villa have in comparison to their contemporaries, and then look at the job the manager is doing.

Is this thread really about anything more than oneupmanship?

[STEVIEG]

That's exactly my point though. Ferguson's 94 squad was stronger than the 2004 squad (can't see too many arguments here) so does that mean that in 10 years in charge he managed to regress?

I think it's all bollocks to be honest. Benitez is a probably a good coach but a crap manager. Whether or not he's improved the squad doesn't matter. Look at the squad Villa have in comparison to their contemporaries, and then look at the job the manager is doing.

Is this thread really about anything more than oneupmanship?

He is simply making the point that Rafa has not made much progress at all, despite the claim that he is getting closer etc etc etc

In fairness most Liverpool fans here recognise this

Another European Cup in May would be progress the league will be very hard to win now i'm more concerned with Chelsea

Between 1994 and 2004 United would have added significant trophies to their haul, so this was progress in a way (The team of 94 was definitely better than years later though they were a bit light as a squad back then; and indeed in 2004)

O'Neill is doing really well and is now making Villa a better squad too, they were very thin for awhile last year

Villas progress is tangible year on year

a few years ago they were under threat of relegation

he is doing a great job

[xvis]

That's exactly my point though. Ferguson's 94 squad was stronger than the 2004 squad (can't see too many arguments here) so does that mean that in 10 years in charge he managed to regress?

I think it's all bollocks to be honest. Benitez is a probably a good coach but a crap manager. Whether or not he's improved the squad doesn't matter. Look at the squad Villa have in comparison to their contemporaries, and then look at the job the manager is doing.

Is this thread really about anything more than oneupmanship?

Ferguson's United teams went through a few peaks and rebuilds between 94 to 04, ..you can't say one team is leading onto another team over a period longer than some players careers.

Both squads were good, so there's nothing critical either way re. those United squads, ..bar 04 having a problem with an aging midfield


This thread is about examining the progress that Benitez has made with Liverpool since he took over.

..seeing that it has often been said that the present overall squad is better than the one that he inherited, and that Liverpool are making progress year on year.

Almost 5 years is enough time to clear out the players you don't want and assemble the team you need.

[chabal]

Rafa Holding Reds Back, by Andy Gray a month ago

http://www.skysports.com/opinion/story/0,25212,12064_487405 7,00.html

[xvis]

I'd say 4 1st team starting players at a push. A left back, right midfielder and left midfielder. A right back either ahead of Arbeloa or else as cover.

There squad is weak though. A good option instead of Torres in case of injury and a squad centre mid that can pass instead of having Lucas in that place.

I've stated many a time about the players I'd like to see at Liverpool.

Obviously money is a serious restriction.
I'd expect transfer stories around Glen Johnson, Keirrson this summer. Sky Sports have linked Raul Abidol from Valencia for £13M

If Agger goes I think Steven Taylor from Newcastle would be a good signing maybe even Jagileka from Everton.

I think Glen Johnson will come in this summer and compete with Arbeloa. Not exactly awe inspring but is a solid option at right back.

Arteta would be a great signing for the centre midfield area to give a reliable alternative to Alonso. I know he's injured but I still really rate the guy

Wide right is difficult as the attacking areas always cost the most. I think Riera would be a good squad option on the left, as Kuyt is on the right but not necessarily a first choice solution.

Keirrson was linked a couple of weeks ago and would be a great signing based on some of the reviews he has received.

I cant see Benitez buying another left back. Dossena has been a dismal failure and Aurelio is as injury prone as they come. With Insua coming up the ranks Benitez may opt to leave the status quo alone there but I do expect Insua to feature more.


Left and right of midfield and defence, ..and another forward. ..then probably more cover for centreback if Hyypia and Agger move on.

..If they are to go forward with Rafa.

Taylor is gash, ..and it'll take big money to get anyone off Everton.


The full back positions may be okay, ..but with the team lining out with an ultra-attacking midfielder and an ultra-defensive midfielder in a 4-2-3-1 as Benitez has assembled, ..then perhaps as ho chi feen has mentioned on many occasions, more demanding performers are needed at fullback for that system to succeed domestically.

Otherwise there aren't enough goal threats in the team, and too many games are easily drawn. ditto the wide mids.

That's the position the squad is in at the moment.


..and again it brings up the Gerrard question.

If Liverpool were to mirror United, ..Gerrard would need to be given the Ronaldo role and let him do whatever he wants (not much change there. ..he'd also have to cut back on the diving a bit) ...Mascherano would need to push forward and take off the shackles ..Kuyt would need to get fucked ..and Torres would need to link up with play a bit more.


What does surprise me from the comparison is how bad the bench has become.

[xvis]

3/3/09
18. Dirk Kuyt 24. David N'gog

11. Albert Riera 14. Xabi Alonso 8. Steven Gerrard 15. Yossi Benayoun

22. Emiliano Insua 23. Jamie Carragher 37. Martin Skrtel 20. Javier Mascherano

25. Jose Reina



SUBS
1. Diego Cavalieri (GK) 2. Andrea Dossena 4. Sami Hyypia 12. Fabio Aurelio 19. Ryan Babel 21. Leiva Lucas 31. Nabil El Zhar


ABSENT
5 Agger 9 Torres 17 Arbeloa 26 Spearing 27 Degen 28 Plessis 29 Németh 30 Itandje 32 Darby 34 Kelly 36 Irwin

[AmadeusDC]

Odds on Cisse coming off the bench and scoring? Former club curse and all that. I'd say he'd be bursting to have a race on goal with Carragher for starters.

-AmadeusDC-

[BlueSkies]

Liverpool won't try to mirror United under Benitez, you'd want to be mad to think that.
I think if two quality wide players (with pace) could be acquired, the starting XI is pretty much sorted, not perfect, but strong.
The bench is fucked though. The likes of Lucas, Dossena, N'gog, el Zhar and even Kuyt and Benayoun have no business in a squad trying to compete with United's and Chelsea's.
Glad to see you're genuinely concerned xvis.

[MonTheHoops]

..seeing that it has often been said that the present overall squad is better than the one that he inherited, and that Liverpool are making progress year on year.


Often enough to go digging to this extent? Really? REALLY?

I don't think it matters, he's spent a fortune. Most of it on crap signings á la his predecessor.

BlueSkies, i've said that about Liverpool; I can't remember the last time they had two decent wingers. They're a team of middlemen, have been since the 90s. Their left backs and wingers have been brutal on the whole since the 90s.

[Edmund Blackwater]

Liverpool won't try to mirror United under Benitez, you'd want to be mad to think that.
I think if two quality wide players (with pace) could be acquired, the starting XI is pretty much sorted, not perfect, but strong.
The bench is fucked though. The likes of Lucas, Dossena, N'gog, el Zhar and even Kuyt and Benayoun have no business in a squad trying to compete with United's and Chelsea's.
Glad to see you're genuinely concerned xvis.

I agree and disagree.
The 3 players in bold are very good squad players to have at your disposal. Well, el Zhar will prove to be imo, he just needs a few games.
Nemeth also looks like he could make it as a squad player from what I've seen of him.
They are badly in need of a decent attacking right back.

[Edmund Blackwater]

BlueSkies, i've said that about Liverpool; I can't remember the last time they had two decent wingers. They're a team of middlemen, have been since the 90s. Their left backs and wingers have been brutal on the whole since the 90s.
Too true.
They haven't had a decent or half decent winger since McManamanamanman left.

[Philby]

As an aside...

Rafa had been tracking Daniel Alves for a number of years. The deal (for a price tag significantly lower than the €29 (plus €6 in add-ons) he commanded when he eventually went to Barca for as the world's most expensive full-back) was in place to bring him to Anfield but Del Nido reneged. Try as they might them simply couldn't get the deal done at a price that the Anfield board were happy with.

This failed signing, more than any, epitomised Benitez's frustration with the club's acquisition strategy and showed that he recognises just how much some talented attacking full-backs could add to the current Liverpool side.

The later acqusitions of Degen & Dossena this summer also point to this but for various reasons neither of these have worked out (although Insua, Aurelio and Arbeloa have all done well this season but all 3 lack genuine attacking instincts)

On a similar note Simao was on a plane to Liverpool ready to sign on the dotted line when Benfica called a halt to the deal.

Sourcing genuine quality wide players is tough to do even when you've got a big budget...for proof look no further than Nani & Malouda.

[Philby]

The likes of Lucas, Dossena, N'gog, el Zhar and even Kuyt and Benayoun have no business in a squad trying to compete with United's and Chelsea's

People crow about Rafa's reluctance to blood players who have come through the Youth or Reserve sides but then don't give any of these players a wet week to prove themselves. You can't have it both ways.

[Philby]

Ferguson's United teams went through a few peaks and rebuilds between 94 to 04, ..you can't say one team is leading onto another team over a period longer than some players careers.

Both squads were good, so there's nothing critical either way re. those United squads, ..bar 04 having a problem with an aging midfield


This thread is about examining the progress that Benitez has made with Liverpool since he took over.

..seeing that it has often been said that the present overall squad is better than the one that he inherited, and that Liverpool are making progress year on year.

Almost 5 years is enough time to clear out the players you don't want and assemble the team you need.

Your using your subjective opinion on the relative strengths of the two squad (pre-Benitez and now) as the sole basis for comparison.

I've have thought the quality of the first eleven, the finishing league positions and the success in Europe would be a better barometer for judging a manager's success no?

All three would point to Liverpool being a better side now than when Benitez took over.

[BlueSkies]

I agree and disagree.
The 3 players in bold are very good squad players to have at your disposal. Well, el Zhar will prove to be imo, he just needs a few games.
Nemeth also looks like he could make it as a squad player from what I've seen of him.
They are badly in need of a decent attacking right back.

Fair enough point.
I think the problem I have is these young guys having to start in must-win games due to the threadbare nature of the squad.
Obviously I believe in giving youngsters a chance, but throwing them in at the deep end is just as likely to be counter-productive to all but the most talented.

[xvis]

Your using your subjective opinion on the relative strengths of the two squad (pre-Benitez and now) as the sole basis for comparison.

I've have thought the quality of the first eleven, the finishing league positions and the success in Europe would be a better barometer for judging a manager's success no?

All three would point to Liverpool being a better side now than when Benitez took over.

I'm not using my subjective opinion ....I'm putting up the squad before and now, for the opinions of anyone who cares to offer them. ..fire away..



You need more than a first eleven to compete in both the PL and CL.


Finishing league positions has seen little or no improvements..

2000 4th, 67 pts
2001 3rd, 69 pts (won UEFA Cup, FA Cup, League Cup)
2002 2nd, 80 pts
2003 5th, 64 pts (won League Cup)
2004 4th, 60 pts
Avg position 3.6, Avg pts 68
------------------------
2005 5th, 58 pts (won European Cup)
2006 3rd, 82 pts (won FA Cup)
2007 3rd, 68 pts
2008 4th, 76 pts
2009 3rd, 79 pts(projected)
Avg position 3.6, Avg pts 72.6


Europe has been a big success.

[ho chi feen]

On a similar note Simao was on a plane to Liverpool ready to sign on the dotted line when Benfica called a halt to the deal.

Talk about getting out of jail. Simao is, has been, and always will be shit on a stick.

[BlueSkies]

I'm not using my subjective opinion ....I'm putting up the squad before and now, for the opinions of anyone who cares to offer them. ..fire away..



You need more than a first eleven to compete in both the PL and CL.


Finishing league positions has seen little or no improvements..

2000 4th, 67 pts
2001 3rd, 69 pts
2002 2nd, 80 pts
2003 5th, 64 pts
2004 4th, 60 pts Avg position 3.6, Avg pts 68
------------------------
2005 5th, 58 pts
2006 3rd, 82 pts
2007 3rd, 68 pts
2008 4th, 76 pts
2009 3rd, 79 pts(projected) Avg position 3.6, Avg pts 72.6


Europe has been a big success.

Chelsea's emergence as genuine title contenders is also a factor.

[xvis]

Chelsea's emergence as genuine title contenders is also a factor.

So should Arsenal's disappearance ...Jose blew Arsenal away. United stayed for the fight.

[STEVIEG]

Talk about getting out of jail. Simao is, has been, and always will be shit on a stick.

Yup he is after developing into a much worse player than he was when Rafa tried to sign him in fairness

[STEVIEG]

I think the problem I have is these young guys having to start in must-win games due to the threadbare nature of the squad.
.

That's the crux of it really

It's all well and good United blooding players in the Carling Cup but in a league match its different

Fergie will always try to do it, but will be less inclined to where points are at stake (injuries and suspensions mean he has benefited from Evans and Rafael Da Silva getting handy game time this year, especially Evans)

[BlueSkies]

So should Arsenal's disappearance ...Jose blew Arsenal away. United stayed for the fight.

Eh, what?

[STEVIEG]

Eh, what?

Chelsea came up

Arsenal, the unbeatables of 2004 pre Rafas first season, went downhill league-wise, possibly balancing out this effect overall

[Swoosh]

Benitez will never win the league for Liverpool.

FACT

[wat_boy]

5 years and about 180m spent with only half a dozen quality (2 of which he inherited) players, only one genuine title challenge (this season and out if it by feb) if you want to call it that, in term of strikers we've gone so far backwards we've almost time traveled ffs, imo benitez has a natural mistrust of players with flair and genuine skill and perfers players who carry out orders to the letter and workhorses, this is not and will never be good enough to win the league, for me thats what it boils down to and enough is enough, he is out of dept and needs to go at the end of the season

[chabal]

another important goal from Keane again today, is that a demonstration of Rafa's inability to get the best out of some players, seems ridiculous to have sold him on so quickly and at such a loss financially

[xvis]

Bump.



My alarm at the diminishing strength of the Liverpool bench over the years caused me to start this thread. (..possibly the move of Lucas to the starting XI has improved the bench, ..smilies etc.)



When Liverpool eventually do get round to sacking Benitez, ..be it 6 months, 18 months or whenever, ..it'll be because of his poor judgement in a player, and his inability to get the best out of some players. He has moved towards, a strong starting eleven and a terrible bench. This may actually be to his short term benefit, as he can't rotate (albeit if his main previous criticisms was that he rotated the spine at the wrong times).
But in the big picture there is a risk of collapse, especially if Gerrard or Torres get injured and the City project bears fruit in the next 12-18 months.


I would have some sympathy with the viewpoint that Rafa has actually produced miracles over the last few years, ..but there is also too many criticisms for me on his judgement and management style. If he had better judgement in signings and young players then Liverpool's squad could be very dangerous at the moment, and he has shown to be a good tactician.



The main question for Liverpool as a football club at this minute is:

1. Why after nearly 20 years of Sky television money have Liverpool a smaller ground than Sunderland? (and after Sunderland spent many years in a lower division as well)


..my answer would almost tie-in with the net spending thread, ..Liverpool spent funds on the first team, whilst at the same time having a short-term vision for the stadium.
The board are in a terrible position.

The stadium situation is a factor in the deterioration of the quality of player outside the starting eleven.

[lionelhutz]

Bump.



My alarm at the diminishing strength of the Liverpool bench over the years caused me to start this thread. (..possibly the move of Lucas to the starting XI has improved the bench, ..smilies etc.)



When Liverpool eventually do get round to sacking Benitez, ..be it 6 months, 18 months or whenever, ..it'll be because of his poor judgement in a player, and his inability to get the best out of some players. He has moved towards, a strong starting eleven and a terrible bench. This may actually be to his short term benefit, as he can't rotate (albeit if his main previous criticisms was that he rotated the spine at the wrong times).
But in the big picture there is a risk of collapse, especially if Gerrard or Torres get injured and the City project bears fruit in the next 12-18 months.


I would have some sympathy with the viewpoint that Rafa has actually produced miracles over the last few years, ..but there is also too many criticisms for me on his judgement and management style. If he had better judgement in signings and young players then Liverpool's squad could be very dangerous at the moment, and he has shown to be a good tactician.



The main question for Liverpool as a football club at this minute is:

1. Why after nearly 20 years of Sky television money have Liverpool a smaller ground than Sunderland? (and after Sunderland spent many years in a lower division as well)


..my answer would almost tie-in with the net spending thread, ..Liverpool spent funds on the first team, whilst at the same time having a short-term vision for the stadium.
The board are in a terrible position.

The stadium situation is a factor in the deterioration of the quality of player outside the starting eleven.

id agree with some comments on rafas poor judgment of players. the bit about the stadium is bollocks though. classic bucksy. they've been improving capacity and trying to move to a bigger stadium for years

[lionelhutz]

I thought it was the Liverpool fans who were 'obsessed'?

heh heh heh.

[xvis]

id agree with some comments on rafas poor judgment of players. the bit about the stadium is bollocks though. classic bucksy. they've been improving capacity and trying to move to a bigger stadium for years

There's a conflict in making the best use of funds right there.


The first wave of ground improvements happened in the early nineties. The next step should have followed 4-5 years later.

They should have madethe crucial decision up to 10 years ago, to stay or to move, and could have doubled their matchday income for the last 5 years plus.

[lionelhutz]

There's a conflict in making the best use of funds right there.


The first wave of ground improvements happened in the early nineties. The next step should have followed 4-5 years later.

They should have madethe crucial decision up to 10 years ago, to stay or to move, and could have doubled their matchday income for the last 5 years plus.

listen bucksy, keep your 'analysis' to football. not crimnal matters. certainly not project managing one of the biggest clubs in europe. good boy. now back to making the tea for you.

[Swoosh]

Surely by bringing in Reina, Torres, Mascherano, Kuyt, Riera, Johnson, Skrtel, Benyoun etc he has improved the team. Maybe from numbers 12 to 16 they might not be as prolific as some of the other sides but they are certainly stronger.

I've said many times on here that Liverpool are about £100 million short of being comparable squad wise to the other top sides.

[xvis]

listen bucksy, keep your 'analysis' to football. not crimnal matters. certainly not project managing one of the biggest clubs in europe. good boy. now back to making the tea for you.

Some excellent points there.


Well done indeed.

[The Zurich Connection]

5 years and about 180m spent with only half a dozen quality (2 of which he inherited) players, only one genuine title challenge (this season and out if it by feb) if you want to call it that, in term of strikers we've gone so far backwards we've almost time traveled ffs, imo benitez has a natural mistrust of players with flair and genuine skill and perfers players who carry out orders to the letter and workhorses, this is not and will never be good enough to win the league, for me thats what it boils down to and enough is enough, he is out of dept and needs to go at the end of the season

He has taken Liverpool to 2 cl finals (with a really limited squad), winning one, an FA Cup and super cup in his time a the club. He came within 4 points of the PL last season despite the in-club turmoil... and you think he is out of his depth?????? Your fuckin nuts.


Who would you replace him with of that quality who would be prepared to accept those conditions and budgetary restrictions?

There are vey few of his quality around. Get a grip.:lol!:

[Lee Bushwacker]

:cool:
Maybe winning the C.L. in 2005 created a type of "false dawn" with fans and the media thinking "happy days are here again" and P.L. titles are going to be raining down like confetti at a wedding. I'm sure that reasonable Pool fans will admit that 2005 was a shade lucky. If Pool had lost that final I think that Rafa would have made more adjustments to the squad which might have had them closer to a P.L. title.
5 years on from the C.L. victory and only one decent challenge to Chelsea's & United's league supremacy is hardly what was envisaged in the aftermath of 2005. Unless Liverpool start on a good table topping run now, Rafa could be in trouble come January!

[The Zurich Connection]

:cool:
Maybe winning the C.L. in 2005 created a type of "false dawn" with fans and the media thinking "happy days are here again" and P.L. titles are going to be raining down like confetti at a wedding. I'm sure that reasonable Pool fans will admit that 2005 was a shade lucky. If Pool had lost that final I think that Rafa would have made more adjustments to the squad which might have had them closer to a P.L. title.
5 years on from the C.L. victory and only one decent challenge to Chelsea's & United's league supremacy is hardly what was envisaged in the aftermath of 2005. Unless Liverpool start on a good table topping run now, Rafa could be in trouble come January!

Reaching 2 cl finals with the squad he had is an excellent achievement as was winning 2 la liga titles with Valencia... simple really. he simple doesnt have chelsea and manure`s spending power, and won`t for a while.

He`s a very clever manager and inherited a mess from houllier which would have needed madridlike spending power to sort with a quick fix... he`s doing a great job considering the circumstances. Firing him now would be a savage mistake and it won`t happen any time soon. This season will throw up suprises and I fully expect us to challange... lets see.;)

I do like the urgency with which rival fans want to see him fired... tells its own story...:cool:

[Lee Bushwacker]

Reaching 2 cl finals with the squad he had is an excellent achievement as was winning 2 la liga titles with Valencia... simple really. he simple doesnt have chelsea and manure`s spending power, and won`t for a while.

He`s a very clever manager and inherited a mess from houllier which would have needed madridlike spending power to sort with a quick fix... he`s doing a great job considering the circumstances. Firing him now would be a savage mistake and it won`t happen any time soon. This season will throw up suprises and I fully expect us to challange... lets see.;)

I do like the urgency with which rival fans want to see him fired... tells its own story...:cool:

:confused:
1. I never said that I wanted him fired nor was i criticising him. I was just commenting on hs situation.
2. His Valencia triumphs are hardly a comfort to Pool fans.
3. We are too far on now to continue blaming Houlier to be honest Z.C.

Ferguson has had to contend with the Glazzer takeover and the shortage of transfer funds caused by taking United off the stock exchange. In spite of this he has put the club back on top quickly taking all this into account.
Read my posts a little more carefully and check what smilies I use before jumping to conclusions Z.C. ok! :|

[The Zurich Connection]

:confused:
1. I never said that I wanted him fired nor was i criticising him. I was just commenting on hs situation.

I never said you did.


2. His Valencia triumphs are hardly a comfort to Pool fans.


They do, however, highlight his quality.


3. We are too far on now to continue blaming Houlier to be honest Z.C.


I am not BLAMING him... but it does take time to sort out the mess he left behind... and Rafa has done a good job doing so... which was my point



Ferguson has had to contend with the Glazzer takeover and the shortage of transfer funds caused by taking United off the stock exchange. In spite of this he has put the club back on top quickly taking all this into account.
Read my posts a little more carefully and check what smilies I use before jumping to conclusions Z.C. ok! :|

He was well established at that stage and well placed to cope with it, it is easier to cope when you have been doing the same thing for over a decade with a huge wallet . That is a very different situation and comparing them is pointless.

[Lee Bushwacker]

He was well established at that stage and well placed to cope with it, it is easier to cope when you have been doing the same thing for over a decade with a huge wallet . That is a very different situation and comparing them is pointless.

:cool:
During the takeover and removal from the stock market Fergie had very limited funds Z.C.
I also think that it would be unfair and a bad idea for Pool to fire Rafa. United persevered with Alex under more difficult circumstances and look how that worked out! :neutral:

[STEVIEG]

back in 2005/6 Fergie had an ageing team with a midfield and defence that was falling apart

He sold his best striker of that era and his team were written off as gone

Back in that era Rafa had just won the European Cup, had their best finish in awhile in the league plus had gone on to win the FA Cup




what happened next?

Liverpool are being written off too early this season and will probably do well overall, but until now, Rafa has not been great and all the excuses in the world won't change this

It's early days though and most of his rivals have weaker teams this year too so a lot can happen

He may even deliver thay league title but i still feel his golden chance was last year and he blew it

no point in firing him though who else is there?

and


K.R.A.P.

[Lee Bushwacker]

back in 2005/6 Fergie had an ageing team with a midfield and defence that was falling apart

He sold his best striker of that era and his team were written off as gone

Back in that era Rafa had just won the European Cup, had their best finish in awhile in the league plus had gone on to win the FA Cup




what happened next?

Liverpool are being written off too early this season and will probably do well overall, but until now, Rafa has not been great and all the excuses in the world won't change this

It's early days though and most of his rivals have weaker teams this year too so a lot can happen

He may even deliver thay league title but i still feel his golden chance was last year and he blew it

no point in firing him though who else is there?

and


K.R.A.P.

:cool:
Jose Mourihno I suppose Stevie!

[xvis]

Reaching 2 cl finals with the squad he had is an excellent achievement as was winning 2 la liga titles with Valencia... simple really. he simple doesnt have chelsea and manure`s spending power, and won`t for a while.

He`s a very clever manager and inherited a mess from houllier which would have needed madridlike spending power to sort with a quick fix... he`s doing a great job considering the circumstances. Firing him now would be a savage mistake and it won`t happen any time soon. This season will throw up suprises and I fully expect us to challange... lets see.;)

I do like the urgency with which rival fans want to see him fired... tells its own story...:cool:

Here we go again.. :rolleyes:


'inherited a mess'


..look at the 14 players who played in Istanbul, and then say he 'inherited a mess' ...much of that 'mess' also then won an FA Cup.



That 'mess' he inherited had Djibril Cisse and Milan Baros from the bench in attack to back up Owen and Heskey.

Now he's got Benayoun ..and Babel.



Let's not forget inheriting a defense of Riise, Carragher, Hyypia and Finnan ...what a mess!

[BlueSkies]

Djibril Cisse, Baros and Heskey are crap.

[xvis]

Djibril Cisse, Baros and Heskey are crap.

They are now, ..as are Voronin and Babel, ..Benayoun is reasonable enough.



But back in the day, Baros and Cisse weren't too shabby and not too bad an option to have on the bench.

[Philby]

The main question for Liverpool as a football club at this minute is:

1. Why after nearly 20 years of Sky television money have Liverpool a smaller ground than Sunderland? (and after Sunderland spent many years in a lower division as well)

Spot on. Over the past 15 years the Liverpool board have showed the strategic vision and business accumen of a melon.

[Cliff Barnes]

Spot on. Over the past 15 years the Liverpool board have showed the strategic vision and business accumen of a melon.

Arsenal have the fantastic new stadium but have very little cash.

[Philby]

...but their revenue streams for the next 15 years are going to dwarf Liverpool's

[The Zurich Connection]

Here we go again.. :rolleyes:


'inherited a mess'


..look at the 14 players who played in Istanbul, and then say he 'inherited a mess' ...much of that 'mess' also then won an FA Cup.



That 'mess' he inherited had Djibril Cisse and Milan Baros from the bench in attack to back up Owen and Heskey.

Now he's got Benayoun ..and Babel.



Let's not forget inheriting a defense of Riise, Carragher, Hyypia and Finnan ...what a mess!




The club was a mess when Houllier was fired (kinda self-explanatory that one). Talk shit all you like... but there is no denying that.

[The Zurich Connection]

Here we go again.. :rolleyes:


'inherited a mess'


..look at the 14 players who played in Istanbul, and then say he 'inherited a mess' ...much of that 'mess' also then won an FA Cup.



That 'mess' he inherited had Djibril Cisse and Milan Baros from the bench in attack to back up Owen and Heskey.

Now he's got Benayoun ..and Babel.



Let's not forget inheriting a defense of Riise, Carragher, Hyypia and Finnan ...what a mess!





Heskey Baros and Cisse are all average players you muppet.

[The Zurich Connection]

back in 2005/6 Fergie had an ageing team with a midfield and defence that was falling apart

He sold his best striker of that era and his team were written off as gone

Back in that era Rafa had just won the European Cup, had their best finish in awhile in the league plus had gone on to win the FA Cup




what happened next?

Liverpool are being written off too early this season and will probably do well overall, and all the ebut until now, Rafa has not been great xcuses in the world won't change this

It's early days though and most of his rivals have weaker teams this year too so a lot can happen

He may even deliver thay league title but i still feel his golden chance was last year and he blew it

no point in firing him though who else is there?

and


K.R.A.P.



Moronic to say the least. he has made great progress there and led the club to two cl finals in his tenure. You tool

[wat_boy]

Baros could of been a fantastic player if his chin wasn't stuck to his chest.

[The Black Knight]

Baros could of been a fantastic player if his chin wasn't stuck to his chest.

Agreed. He was a greedy player.

[xvis]

The club was a mess when Houllier was fired (kinda self-explanatory that one). Talk shit all you like... but there is no denying that.

How were they a mess when they were qualified for the Champions League?



..that's some mess a lot of teams would die for.

[xvis]

Heskey Baros and Cisse are all average players you muppet.

In 2004 Baros was just coming off a golden boot in the Euro's, ..and Cisse was just joined for a very large fee after 3 outstanding seasons in France.

..how do those two compare with Voronin and Babel of today?

[Philby]

Moronic to say the least. he has made great progress there and led the club to two cl finals in his tenure. You tool

Although I'd fall on the pro-Rafa rather than anti-Rafa side of the fence (shocker eh?) you couldn't say that his tenure has been great as he hasn't secured the league title, which was his stated aim and the club's rationale for ousting Houllier.

He has had many great moments (particularly in the CL) and has made very good progress in the league but there's still a little matter of a league title to scoop up before we can even begin to speak of him in those terms.

[Philby]

Liverpool's strength in depth up front was better in 2005 but 4 current main attacking players Torres, Gerrard, Benayoun and Kuyt trump the class of 2005, comfortably.

It's hard to have a top quality first team and top quality reserves without absolute bucketloads of cash.

[The Zurich Connection]

How were they a mess when they were qualified for the Champions League?



..that's some mess a lot of teams would die for.


Why was he sacked then?:rolleyes:

[The Zurich Connection]

Although I'd fall on the pro-Rafa rather than anti-Rafa side of the fence (shocker eh?) you couldn't say that his tenure has been great as he hasn't secured the league title, which was his stated aim and the club's rationale for ousting Houllier.

He has had many great moments (particularly in the CL) and has made very good progress in the league but there's still a little matter of a league title to scoop up before we can even begin to speak of him in those terms.

Sure, but the fact that Liverpool can't match manure and chelski's spending is no fault of Rafa's... aaaaaaand no reflection on his quality. He is clearly one of the best managers in Europe.

Suggesting that he hasn't done very well during his tenure is idiotic.

[Philby]

He has done some really good things and some not so good things. On the whole his reign has been positive and relatively successful (given the constraints and competition) but it'll be the remainder of his tenure that colour how his entire tenure will be viewed.

Rack up a league title or two and he'll be Shankley incarnate.

Fail to win another CL or get past the glass cieling of 2nd and he'll be held in only slightly higher regard than Houllier (who never delivered one of the two big biggest prizes on offer).

[legend76]

He has done some really good things and some not so good things. On the whole his reign has been positive and relatively successful (given the constraints and competition) but it'll be the remainder of his tenure that colour how his entire tenure will be viewed.

Rack up a league title or two and he'll be Shankley incarnate.

Fail to win another CL or get past the glass cieling of 2nd and he'll be held in only slightly higher regard than Houllier (who never delivered one of the two big biggest prizes on offer).

nail on the head

[xvis]

Liverpool's strength in depth up front was better in 2005 but 4 current main attacking players Torres, Gerrard, Benayoun and Kuyt trump the class of 2005, comfortably.

It's hard to have a top quality first team and top quality reserves without absolute bucketloads of cash.

For 1. Torres, 2. Gerrard, 3. Benayoun and 4. Kuyt of today,


..read 1. Owen, 2. Heskey, 3. Cisse, 4. Baros, 5. Diouf, 6. Kewell ...and 7. Gerrard that he inherited.

[Philby]

Numbers-wise these was great strength in depth post-Houllier but the quality wasn't up to what it is now imho

Now

1. Torres - World class

2. Gerrard - World class

3. Benayoun - Not always utilised as much as he could be but had a fabulous 2nd half of the season and is a good creative player (who needs to learn that shooting isn't a crime!)

4. Kuyt - More workhorse than stallion but again does his bit for the team and chips in with his fair share of goals.

Supporting cast of jokers - Voronin, N'Gog & Babel.

Then

1. Owen - laughable. He was always going to leave once a better opportunity came sniffing, didn't play an minute of football for Benitez's Liverpool. Fail

2. Heskey - Left Liverpool before Benitez joined the club. Fail

3. Cisse - Promised much, worked hard, scored more than you'd think & all credit to him for battling back from 2 horrenduous injuries but he did turn out to be quite the player many envisaged. Deemed surplus to reqts at Sunderland at the age of 27 says it all.

4. Baros - Talented guy who lacked the awareness to make him a top player. The Baros of 2003-2005 would be a handy squad player to have right now, no doubt.

5. Diouf - Woeful scoring record, terrible behaviour and very poor value for money.

6. Kewell - Oodles of talent but injuries meant he was never able to show his true ability in more than irregular spurts (ooh-er).

7. Gerrard - Yep. Although Benitez has turned Gerrard into a far more potent attacking force.

[xvis]

State of the Nation..


2009-10

Torres (26)

Benayoun (30), Gerrard (30), Kuyt (29)

Mascherano (25), Lucas (23)

Insua (21), Carragher (32), Agger (25), Johnson (25)

Reina (27)


Bench: Skrtel (25), Maxi (29), Kyrgiakos (30), Ngog (21), Riera (28.), Aquilaini (25), Babel (23), Aurelio (30), Degen (27), Ayala (19), Cavalieri (27), El Zhar (23), Spearing (21), Pacheco (19), Kelly (20).

(Based on league starts this season).


The second line of forwards is getting on, Kuyt will be 30 in July. Defence is young if you swap Skrtel for Carragher but questionable on the flanks.

Bench is also so-so. Poor options or cover in central midfield I would say.