Greatest sporting performance of all time?

[POL]

1 BOD v England
2. Lance Armstrongs 7 tours
3. Ali V Foreman
4. Hulk Hogan v Andre the giant

[Corcaigh32]

Cork Hurlers v Galway 08
Cork Hurling and Football Double 1990
Cork Camogie and Ladies Football double 2008 (and how many other times)
Munster Heineken Cup win 2008
Cork City v Bayern Munich UEFA Cup
Padraig Harrington Open Retention 2008
Irish Golfers in all but the last Ryder Cup (cos of Faldo)
Lance Armstrongs 7 tours
then maybe BOD v England...........

[devvy devverson]

Cork Hurlers v Galway 08
Cork Hurling and Football Double 1990
Cork Camogie and Ladies Football double 2008 (and how many other times)
Munster Heineken Cup win 2008
Cork City v Bayern Munich UEFA Cup
Padraig Harrington Open Retention 2008
Irish Golfers in all but the last Ryder Cup (cos of Faldo)
Lance Armstrongs 7 tours
then maybe BOD v England...........

wouldnt doubt ya boy........
you forgot dripsey(jr) and blarney(inter) all ireland club hurling champions

[chabal]

1 BOD v England
2. Lance Armstrongs 7 tours
3. Ali V Foreman
4. Hulk Hogan v Andre the giant

that was 7 performances not one, and all of them drug-fuelled without any strong opposition. Eddy Merckx is regarded as the greatest cyclist, his first tour win margin was almost 20 minutes winning all 3 jerseys.

Maradona in the 86 world cup would have to rank up there (yes, even with andre the giant and the hulkster)

some of Tiger Woods wins, even though I don't regard golf as a sport

[Action Man]

that was 7 performances not one, and all of them drug-fuelled without any strong opposition. Eddy Merckx is regarded as the greatest cyclist, his first tour win margin was almost 20 minutes winning all 3 jerseys.

Maradona in the 86 world cup would have to rank up there (yes, even with andre the giant and the hulkster)

some of Tiger Woods wins, even though I don't regard golf as a sport

And wrestling is?

[Coogee]

1 BOD v England
2. Lance Armstrongs 7 tours
3. Ali V Foreman
4. Hulk Hogan v Andre the giant

like we didnt all see this thread coming haha.....BOD was immense today...his leadership and bravery was the difference between the teams....

[chabal]

1 BOD v England
2. Lance Armstrongs 7 tours
3. Ali V Foreman
4. Hulk Hogan v Andre the giant

Snakes were his weakness

06HMo9D5MWg

[rebelicecreamman]

1. Cork kids 2nd half v Kilkenny 1999. Coronation of B Corcoran. Famine over. Glory in the rain.

2. Brian Whelehan performance for last 40 mins of 1998 final. Comeback and annihalation of Cats after bad start. Whelehan, suffering from flu, started game at half-back and was being claned, until he was moved to full forward at last gasp. Proceeded to give exhibition scoring 1-6 for Offaly to win and reverse Leinster final drubbing by Cats.

3. 14 man Cork 2nd half comeback v. Glaway/Joe Canning. Nuff said. Still wallowing in that one.

[corkman34]

Remember when Hulk Hogan just before he would win a match would get angry as fuck ,and the other guy would be slapping him and the Hulkster would stand up and walk around the guy and start shaking and then the guy would hit him one more time and Hulk would point his finger at him to basicully say "Your mine now Bitch".

That and Rocky would always make me take on the school bully 3 years above me.....and get the crap beat out of me.

But it was fun all the same thinking for about 20 seconds that i actually had a chance

But my number one sporting performance is Liverpool beating Nottm Forest(when they were good) 5-0 back in 1987 i think. I remember they actually released a vhs of it because it was like fantasy football from Liverpool.

[st finnbar]

1 BOD v England
2. Lance Armstrongs 7 tours
3. Ali V Foreman
4. Hulk Hogan v Andre the giant

munster wining 2 hc in 3 years

[blocker]

Ray Ryan (inspirational Cork Captain, just out of minor) marking no one and clearing a couple of balls against a disinterested Tipp in the league 09! He got a Railway cup tshirt on the strength of it and went on the piss on reardens wearing it!

[scottyspud1]

Ronnies 5min 15 sec 147

[ho chi feen]

ROG today. :D

[mightyquark]

Roy Keane for Man Utd in Turin Champs league semi final
Roy Keane for Ireland against Portugal and Holland in the 2002 WC qualifiers

[STEVIEG]

BOD today without a shadow of a doubt

O'Driscoll, according to the pundits on RTE, actually carried on despite getting a few hits and beat the mighty England, who are not that good anymore, on his own

In the history of sport a player has never seen such adversity before, but God was on his side (insert cliche here)

good performance and all that but........

PS-I am happy Ireland won and hope they win the Grand Slam now

[daflange]

erins own v midleton in u16 championship game in cobh final score midleton 6-9 erins own 6-8 brian corcoran scored 6-7 even the midleton supporters were cheering on corcoran towards the end

[devvy devverson]

cant believe stevie g hasnt gone on about the utd treble.

[STEVIEG]

cant believe stevie g hasnt gone on about the utd treble.

Why?


I rarely do

[raZor]

Jannie de Beer versus England World Cup 1999.

Munster vs Gloucester and Munster vs Toulouse.

[Maw Maw]

Stoke City coming back from the dead, 2-0 down against Aston Villa after 87 minutes and drawing 2-2 after 90 mins.

[CORKBHOY]

I played a game of 6 a side in Lakewood in 2005 and one of the lads crossed the ball in from the right as I was poaching around the back post being marked tightly by a solid defender.
The ball was floated beautifuly towards the front post (as I had just made a subtle pointing gesture to the guy with the ball) and I darted forwards loosing the defender in the process. In fairness to him he was quick to react but he was no match for my speed, strenght and agility. Although he attempted to pull my jersey he couldn't prevent me rising to meet he crossed ball with the inside toe of my right boot to merely redirect the inswinging cross right into the top corner behind me, the keeper rooted to the spot and looking at me in awe.

I got 4 more goals that evening as well as several assists and numerous important takles.

We won 9-7.

That is the greatest sporting permonace of all time.

Thanks.

[3pointplay]

Liverpool 1985'86 double winning team.
Neptune 18-0 team 1990'91.

[Lapsy Pa]

They weren't single performances but Usain Bolt and Michael Phelps in the 08 Olympics were fairly special.

Two dominant figures in one games mightn't happen for a long time

[chabal]

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T4bDdjgVtAc

Eamon "chairman of the boards" Coughlan

DGXGTfGB_wc

[kevinbitzz]

The "Everest" of Road Bowling - The Chetwynd Viaduct - was conquered after decades of attempts, on September 8th, 1985. Watched by over 10,000 people, Hans Bohllen from West Germany lofted a 28 oz. bowl over the viaduct clearing the top by ten feet.

The event was sponsored by Murphy Brewery Ireland in association with Bol-Chumann Na hEireann as part of the Cork 800 Celebrations. The winner Hans Bohllen from the Ost-Friesland Club in Germany recieved a prize of five thousand pounds.

Three Irish bowlers, all Cork based, Bill Daly, Eamonn Bowen and Dan O'Halloran, also successfully lofted the viaduct with the 16 oz. bowl and shared another Murphy prize of one thousand pounds.

Bohllen arrived complete with his ramp, which has been part of the German tradition since their association was founded in 1645 and is used by every member of their 22,000 strong association. Bohllen lofted successful on his third attempt though the bowl touched a girder on its way down. His fourth attempt soared ten feet over clearing all obstacles. Hans Bohllen had made history on that Sunday of September 8th, 1985. He had truly overcome that invincible obstacle that has stood unconquered since 1849 when it was built.




http://www.askaboutireland. ie/show_narrative_page. do?page_id=1322

[scottyspud1]

The "Everest" of Road Bowling - The Chetwynd Viaduct - was conquered after decades of attempts, on September 8th, 1985. Watched by over 10,000 people, Hans Bohllen from West Germany lofted a 28 oz. bowl over the viaduct clearing the top by ten feet.

The event was sponsored by Murphy Brewery Ireland in association with Bol-Chumann Na hEireann as part of the Cork 800 Celebrations. The winner Hans Bohllen from the Ost-Friesland Club in Germany recieved a prize of five thousand pounds.

Three Irish bowlers, all Cork based, Bill Daly, Eamonn Bowen and Dan O'Halloran, also successfully lofted the viaduct with the 16 oz. bowl and shared another Murphy prize of one thousand pounds.

Bohllen arrived complete with his ramp, which has been part of the German tradition since their association was founded in 1645 and is used by every member of their 22,000 strong association. Bohllen lofted successful on his third attempt though the bowl touched a girder on its way down. His fourth attempt soared ten feet over clearing all obstacles. Hans Bohllen had made history on that Sunday of September 8th, 1985. He had truly overcome that invincible obstacle that has stood unconquered since 1849 when it was built.




http://www.askaboutireland. ie/show_narrative_page. do?page_id=1322


This post deserves a few pictures

http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq252/scottyspud1/Cork/DSC02504.jpg

http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq252/scottyspud1/Cork/DSC02501.jpg

jiETwuJm_OM

[devvy devverson]

didnt mick barry loft that with a 28oz bowl????? not too sure when

[devvy devverson]

Why?


I rarely do

u being the obvious utd fan i thought it would have sprung to mind no????? or are you waiting for utd to absolutely fill the cabinet this year?:p

[scottyspud1]

didnt mick barry loft that with a 28oz bowl????? not too sure when

Not sure tbh but I think someone lofted up a 28oz and it got stuck up there

[PatMan]

didnt mick barry loft that with a 28oz bowl????? not too sure when

In 1955 the first official attempt was made. In March of that year the event was watched by 6,000 spectators. Mick Barry from Waterfall succeeded in bounding a 16 oz. bowl over the viaduct. Barry's brother Ned and Mick himself both struck the upper iron work with a 28 oz. bowl.


http://www.askaboutireland. ie/show_n...o?page_id=1 322 (http://www.askaboutireland. ie/show_narrative_page. do?page_id=1322)

[the puerto rican feen]

lance 'pharma' armstrong, good one

[longbigandjuicy]

Michelle Smith 96 Olympics

[chabal]

0uCgkpVdt4U

s_onBx2ZSHA

[tim the trip]

0uCgkpVdt4U

s_onBx2ZSHA

look at how wide the handle bars and drops are in comparsion to todays bikes.
nice post chabal.

[chabal]

look at how wide the handle bars and drops are in comparsion to todays bikes.
nice post chabal.

the shape of the bikes changed too, much of it from work in wind-tunnels to find the optimum, the bikes are 3kg lighter now too than in the 80's which is a very significant difference to a racer.

The power of Kellys final sprint in that finish was pretty awesome, he made it look easy in the end

[shamoverhere]

Gerry Loftus for his performances in the World Superstars in the 1980's

Untouchable

[chabal]

Gerry Loftus for his performances in the World Superstars in the 1980's

Untouchable

i was actually looking for that clip on youtube, didnt find, what was the name of the english guy who won it numerous times, he had curly blond hair if i recall correctly. didn't daly thompson enter it too on occasion, and even Pat Spillane, i seem to recall him nearly drowning in the swimming event

[shamoverhere]

i was actually looking for that clip on youtube, didnt find, what was the name of the english guy who won it numerous times, he had curly blond hair if i recall correctly. didn't daly thompson enter it too on occasion, and even Pat Spillane, i seem to recall him nearly drowning in the swimming event

Yes indeedy Pat was there, Declan Burns actually came close as well in the world ones, the chin-ups man. The English guy was Brian Jacks I think.
Kevin Keegan fell off his bike too, as opposed to his falling off his horse which he's become a master of since.

[Lee Bushwacker]

and even Pat Spillane, i seem to recall him nearly drowning in the swimming event

:twisted:
He also got "fried" by the sun for not using sun protection in The Bahamas.
What a prize langer!

[Lee Bushwacker]

:cool:
I seem to remember an American called Brian Budd winning it a few times. He was also blond and maybe people are confusing Brian Jacks with him.
Who knows!

[chabal]

:twisted:
He also got "fried" by the sun for not using sun protection in The Bahamas.
What a prize langer!

Hilarious, would take a kerryman!!!

That was a fun tournament to watch. Brian Jacks is right, he used train nearly fulltime like a professional for the event.

I was trying to recall the name of that chin-ups guy, Declan Burns, he was shit hot at the push ups too if I am correct.

Found Keegan on youtube, funny, he looks fairly uncomfortable on the bike like he never cycled before, wobbling all over the place before the inevitable, its funny that u can see the look on his face just before he hits the other fella probably saying "oh shit", must have felt like a mug

jEuOPLtcY9A

[duffer31]

ronaldo 07-08. an individual season never to be matched again even if he went back in a time machine and got as yellow for diving whilst in the said machine in pink shorts. thread over.

[Coin]

I find it comical that chabal points out that Lance's wins were all drug-fueled and then sticks up video of Roche and Kelly. Lad, that's blinkered.

[Lee Bushwacker]

Hilarious, would take a kerryman!!!

That was a fun tournament to watch. Brian Jacks is right, he used train nearly fulltime like a professional for the event.

I was trying to recall the name of that chin-ups guy, Declan Burns, he was shit hot at the push ups too if I am correct.

Found Keegan on youtube, funny, he looks fairly uncomfortable on the bike like he never cycled before, wobbling all over the place before the inevitable, its funny that u can see the look on his face just before he hits the other fella probably saying "oh shit", must have felt like a mug

jEuOPLtcY9A

:D
Brian Budd also said about another competitor that a calendar would be needed to time him in the 100 metres!

[chabal]

I find it comical that chabal points out that Lance's wins were all drug-fueled and then sticks up video of Roche and Kelly. Lad, that's blinkered.

no its not, I know what went on, the drugs weren't nearly so effective or dangerous until the early 90's, and those days of Kelly and Roche cycling in the 80's were good times, I never said they weren't also using. The drug cheating of Lance and his influence on the peloton was alot more cynical and intimidating than anything that ever happened before.

[Edmund Blackwater]

no its not, I know what went on, the drugs weren't nearly so effective or dangerous until the early 90's, and those days of Kelly and Roche cycling in the 80's were good times, I never said they weren't also using. The drug cheating of Lance and his influence on the peloton was alot more cynical and intimidating than anything that ever happened before.
From my understanding of it, EPO, which was around in Roche/Kelly 's time was a very, very dangerous drug.

[duffer31]

From my understanding of it, EPO, which was around in Roche/Kelly 's time was a very, very dangerous drug.

i would agree and also argue that the drugs in roches and kelly's time were probably far more dangerous than the ones lancy boy was/is using. roche was definately juiced up anyway. i dont think there is much doubt in that but kelly has a magic mushroom head up on 'im as well though........

[Edmund Blackwater]

i would agree and also argue that the drugs in roches and kelly's time were probably far more dangerous than the ones lancy boy was/is using.
I'd have thought so.

I think I remember reading/hearing that it caused the blood to thicken which resulted in the heart being unable to pump it aroun the circulatory system which was responsible for a few deaths and alot of retirements.

They didn't really know much about it's long term effect either.

They were flat out on amphetamines as well which aren't exactly good for the ceann.

[STEVIEG]

I enjoyed the cycling at the time and was a big fan of both but it is tainted beyond doubt and like most athletic victories since the 80's, hard to savour

[3pointplay]

Another Basketball one would be Blue Demons winning the Federations Cup in 1981.

[Coin]

no its not, I know what went on, the drugs weren't nearly so effective or dangerous until the early 90's, and those days of Kelly and Roche cycling in the 80's were good times, I never said they weren't also using. The drug cheating of Lance and his influence on the peloton was alot more cynical and intimidating than anything that ever happened before.
Dead on, people in the 80's only cheated in a happy-go-lucky, its-all-a-bit-of-fun sort of way. A bit of a laugh in the hotel after a stage.

So what if a few people died from having their blood turn to sludge, at least they weren't doing it in a cynical, intimidating way.

[AmadeusDC]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superstars

That Superstars Show.

I remember a U.S./World edition that had Rodnay and Tiki Barber, Sugar Shane Moseley, Alberto Thomba (spell??) and possibly even Lennox Lewis. That's some serious calibre of athlete there.

-AmadeusDC-

[chabal]

FORE

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[chabal]

From my understanding of it, EPO, which was around in Roche/Kelly 's time was a very, very dangerous drug.

EPO appeared in the peloton around 1991, the year after LeMonds last Tour win, LeMond and his team did badly that year and were left well behind, he claims it was from the widespread EPO abuse which started then. I don't say Kelly or Roche didn't take drugs, but before the 90's it was very different in cycling and in other sports such as athletics, EPO started killing athletes in the early 90's

[Edmund Blackwater]

EPO was around before 91.

[tim the trip]

no its not, I know what went on, the drugs weren't nearly so effective or dangerous until the early 90's, and those days of Kelly and Roche cycling in the 80's were good times, I never said they weren't also using. The drug cheating of Lance and his influence on the peloton was alot more cynical and intimidating than anything that ever happened before.


sorry man. i have to pull you on that one.
there were germans riders collapsing in the 20s from dianobol and other anabolic nastys.
marco pantani was out of his head just as lance was coning up. roche was off his tits long b4 that, and on the same stuff,in fact his name was listed with marco from the same clinic and doctors in the same ledgers and log books . the logs where coded by the labs, and were not deciphered till long after the statute of limatations had passed. roche was a cheat also.a big one.
read the death of marco pantani. its not a very happpy book mind.....

[chabal]

twas the 90's before it was being reported by cyclists in the peloton

[Coin]

EPO appeared in the peloton around 1991, the year after LeMonds last Tour win, LeMond and his team did badly that year and were left well behind, he claims it was from the widespread EPO abuse which started then. I don't say Kelly or Roche didn't take drugs, but before the 90's it was very different in cycling and in other sports such as athletics, EPO started killing athletes in the early 90's
I think its generally accepted that EPO was being used in the late 80's. It's usually blamed for the deaths of most of the 18 cyclists who died without apparent cause between 1987 and 1990.

Regardless, cheating is cheating. Armstrong was just better at it.

[chabal]

sorry man. i have to pull you on that one.
there were germans riders collapsing in the 20s from dianobol and other anabolic nastys.
marco pantani was out of his head just as lance was coning up. roche was off his tits long b4 that, and on the same stuff,in fact his name was listed with marco from the same clinic and doctors in the same ledgers and log books . the logs where coded by the labs, and were not deciphered till long after the statute of limatations had passed. roche was a cheat also.a big one.
read the death of marco pantani. its not a very happpy book mind.....

pull me up on what??? I never said Roche wasn't using drugs

However the era before 1998 was quite different than after in the cycling world, some elements of the sport were making an earnest effort to clean it up, and others lead by Lance Armstrong were doing there very best to keep cheating and to threaten and intimidate those in the sport against drugs abuse. The drugs being used after 1990 were definitely more serious and more effective than the stuff that was being used previously, up until that time it was still possible for a clean cyclist to have some chance of doing ok in the top races, after 1990 it became impossible to succeed unless you were also cheating

[Edmund Blackwater]

It's a long time since I read Kimmage's book, but didn't he relay a tale of one of his team-mates lying on the ground, gasping for breath, clutching his heart? A 20-something year old, fit as a flea athlete suffering apparent heart problems while sleeping?
Sounds like EPO to me.
Kimmage retired in 89, I think.

[chabal]

he reported such stories when he was a journalist in the 90's, I read his book and he names the drugs being used when he was a rider, growth hormones and other shit but not nearly as serious as EPO and the stuff that followed

[Edmund Blackwater]

he reported such stories when he was a journalist in the 90's, I read his book and he names the drugs being used when he was a rider, growth hormones and other shit but not nearly as serious as EPO and the stuff that followed
I think he said that he only found out years later what it was.
As I say, my memory is a bit sketchy on this.

I do know that EPO has been around since the mid 80s.

[SPOGGEM]

In this order:

1.The day we won the Minor County A Championship vs Ballinora in C'rig' na Bhfearr.

2. The day I scored 4 for ramblers youths against hibs in the cup.

3. The day I scored 9 points outta 1-9 for Imokilly Minors against Muskerry in
Ballincollig.

4. The day Reinhold Messner climbed Everest, on his todd, from the North face with no supplementary oxygen.


Messner actually stated in his book The Crystal Horizon that he regards numbers 1-3 listed above as the greatest sporting achievements of all time.

FACT.

[tim the trip]

pull me up on what??? I never said Roche wasn't using drugs

However the era before 1998 was quite different than after in the cycling world, some elements of the sport were making an earnest effort to clean it up, and others lead by Lance Armstrong were doing there very best to keep cheating and to threaten and intimidate those in the sport against drugs abuse. The drugs being used after 1990 were definitely more serious and more effective than the stuff that was being used previously, up until that time it was still possible for a clean cyclist to have some chance of doing ok in the top races, after 1990 it became impossible to succeed unless you were also cheating


i never said that you did. your statement that drugs where not effective or dangerous till the 90s, well thats just bollox.

[Coin]

he reported such stories when he was a journalist in the 90's, I read his book and he names the drugs being used when he was a rider, growth hormones and other shit but not nearly as serious as EPO and the stuff that followed

In the same year however, the impact of EPO on the health, indeed very lives of professional cyclists in particular saw the doping boundaries shifted to new and deadly levels. In the period 1987-1990, no less than 18 cyclists died in mysterious circumstances all from heart or stroke related deaths. The deaths were linked to the uncontrolled use of EPO which although was turning silver into gold for many it was turning the blood of others into ‘oil’ sending them to an early grave.
http://www.playthegame.org/take-part/home/topic/clean-athletes-deserve-better.html
This was back when they didn't have a clue what they were doing. The reason it had such an impact in 90/91 was that it became organised and teams figured out how too use it.


I still fail to see how you can somehow see Armstrong as worse than people cheating back in the 80's. If they had access to the science that Armstrong had, you can be bloody sure they'd have been at it too. The best they had pre-87 was blood doping, amphetamines and growth hormone, and they were doing all that.

[leftback]

On the soccer theme someone told me a fella scored a hattrick of free kicks in a local senior league game last year?? Haven't heard of that bein done before.

[STEVIEG]

Think van Hjodonk (sp) or Juninho or someone did it once in one of the European leagues cant remember who it was though

[chabal]

http://www.playthegame.org/take-part/home/topic/clean-athletes-deserve-better.html
This was back when they didn't have a clue what they were doing. The reason it had such an impact in 90/91 was that it became organised and teams figured out how too use it.

I still fail to see how you can somehow see Armstrong as worse than people cheating back in the 80's. If they had access to the science that Armstrong had, you can be bloody sure they'd have been at it too. The best they had pre-87 was blood doping, amphetamines and growth hormone, and they were doing all that.

that is the point I was making. However despite what some others are suggesting it was 1989 before EPO was being really expiremented with in sport (namely track running) and 1991 before it became widespread in cycling.

Alot really did change after the big scandal in 1998, and for the very first time in procycling a real effort was made to clean up the sport. an amnesty of sorts was put in place and some involved in the sport, lead by the French cycling authorities were making serious efforts to clean things up, for the honour of the sport, to win back public support and to hold onto sponsors that were leaving and/or offering less money. The peloton became known as the 2 speeds race, those that were clean and those still cheating. some of the teams really did go clean at the insistence of their sponsors, and those teams (mostly french) were being left behind very significantly in the races by the other teams who were known to be still cheating, such as the spanish, belgian and most significantly Lances team. Lances team was last in the 1998 tour, and with a known drugs cheat Bruyneel in charge they went on to totally dominate the race, a turnaround simply not possible without drugs, and there was newer more effective drugs introduced to procycling at this time that were initially only available from american sources (Lances team was american). The sponsors of cycling saw the sport was near dying and Lances cancer story was very useful and also won over a large lucrative american market that had little interest prior to 1999. A scandal involving Lance at a time when the organisers were claiming to have cleaned up the sport would have been catastrophic for them, main sponsors Credit Lyonaise and Coca-Cola both declared they would pull out of the Tour if there was another big scandal in 1999 which would have likely ended the race, as other sponsors weren't willing to put up anything like the money necessary to fund the race considering the battering the Tours public image received. Lance actually failed a drugs test during the 1999 tour but he was given a pardon by the organisers under serious pressure from sponsors (remember the 1998 tour was a disaster for them). The intimidation that Lance and his team put on riders who were trying to clean up the sport at this time was disgraceful and was much worse than anything that had happened previously. The sport really had a great opportunity in 1999 to make a fresh start, in advance of the 99 Tour the organisers told the public the race would be slower than for many years because of the lack of drugs, but it was no surprise however that Lance won in a record time, beating previous drug-fuelled records set by riders who were much more natural Tour riders (note that Lance never came even close to challenging for the Tour pre-cancer, and he was 28 by then, pretty old to start developing into a Tour rider, his highest finish in the Tour prior to 1999 was 36th).
Lance was a good rider seriously boosted by drugs and used many of his drug-fuelled buddies and his weight with the organisers of events, and even calling on his influence with sponsors to seriously threaten and intimidate other riders trying to go clean, it was an ugly business, and all at the same time while proclaiming himself the saviour of Procycling, the first man to win clean, when those who knew the sport knew he was even more doped up than the previous champions with newer drugs. Doping became systematic in cycling between 1991 and 1998 due to the dangers involved, the team doctors took more control of the drug-taking due to the increased risks of the drugs involved, to prevents deaths and to get the optimum out of the drugs whilst still staying within the limits of the laughable "drugs controls" (suddenly most riders miraculously had a haematocrit of 49.5% and were permitted by the authorities to take drugs for their "asthma"!!!). In the 90's the cyclists didn't have any real choice to ride clean, as it was systematic doping and no team would hire a rider who didn't take the best drugs. After 1998 that changed but Lance did his best to keep cycling in the corrupt dark ages, which is why taking drugs in cycling was worse after 1998. After his pardon by the Tour in 1999 Lance was given a green light to take what he wanted and knew he had the protection of the authorities. It is no coincidence that after he retired there were many high-profile cyclists caught cheating. Some of those who wanted to clean the sport had to wait for Lances era to end and the new beginning for cycling making a determined and very real effort to be clean was postponed from 1998 to Lances retirement (even the head of the Tour who retired at the same time more or less suggested as such himself and made a very unusual attack on Lance considering his own position). Now that Lance has returned to cycling it is seen as another backward step for the sport but it isn't likely to be as easy for him this time even though he isn't likely to be caught either.

[chabal]

i never said that you did. your statement that drugs where not effective or dangerous till the 90s, well thats just bollox.

I said they were more dangerous after 1990's, which is true, and also more effective. I know one of the ex-team trainers personally. He said that EPO boosted a riders performance by 10% or more, a huge advance on anything he had seen being used previously. His own words were that it was the first time it was possible to turn a donkey into a racehorse

[xvis]

Think van Hjodonk (sp) or Juninho or someone did it once in one of the European leagues cant remember who it was though

The racist for the fascists ...it was a thing of beauty.

[chabal]

The English guy was Brian Jacks I think.

here he is on the dips setting a record

_rhKk3Krt2M

and playing basketball, he was a fanatic

UUQOmWW5YKQ

[chabal]

HKxoIn6IH7I

[chabal]

Best Irish Performance at Silverstone

7mKilWYYx-I

Showing his versatility at the Olympics in the marathon event

Cx1TDFV5Vhk

[tim the trip]

I said they were more dangerous after 1990's, which is true, and also more effective. I know one of the ex-team trainers personally. He said that EPO boosted a riders performance by 10% or more, a huge advance on anything he had seen being used previously. His own words were that it was the first time it was possible to turn a donkey into a racehorse

this is all true, but e.p.o. therapy was used long b4 90s.

[chabal]

this is all true, but e.p.o. therapy was used long b4 90s.

it was first registered by the FDA in 1989, its first widespread use in cycling was reported in 1991, its first widespread use in tack running was 1989 (coinciding with its registration by the FDA), I am refering to its use in sport.

[tim the trip]

where the f.d.a. doing the job of the i.o.c /wada bodies in 89? prob i suppose, bearing in mind that wada didint take control till 98 or something.

not trying to rubbish your facts, as im sure they are accurate . but it was being used in the 80s. there are documented cases. the anti doping bodies at the time, simply did not test for it, or rather were not instructed to test for it.
its the same with most forms of doping, be it anabolics/blood letting, vascular dialation therapy's you name it. theres always one or 2 things that have not been ruled on by the sports councils.
for a few years it was g.h. all the 350 pound bodybuilders passing tests "clean" cause g.h. was not tested for. now it it. at the moment, "tribulis tebriss" which has a clear enhancing effect on 1.igf growth factors, can be bought in shops on north main street. why? cause its not yet been ruled on by w.a.d.a.
it was the same with e.p.o. in the 80s. it was many years b4 it was on the ban list.

[chabal]

where the f.d.a. doing the job of the i.o.c /wada bodies in 89? prob i suppose, bearing in mind that wada didint take control till 98 or something.

not trying to rubbish your facts, as im sure they are accurate . but it was being used in the 80s. there are documented cases. the anti doping bodies at the time, simply did not test for it, or rather were not instructed to test for it.
its the same with most forms of doping, be it anabolics/blood letting, vascular dialation therapy's you name it. theres always one or 2 things that have not been ruled on by the sports councils.
for a few years it was g.h. all the 350 pound bodybuilders passing tests "clean" cause g.h. was not tested for. now it it. at the moment, "tribulis tebriss" which has a clear enhancing effect on 1.igf growth factors, can be bought in shops on north main street. why? cause its not yet been ruled on by w.a.d.a.
it was the same with e.p.o. in the 80s. it was many years b4 it was on the ban list.

Can you name any athletes using EPO in the 80's?

The FDA are the controllers of drugs for approval in USA (which often the rest of the world copies). The drugs are initially developed and approved for medical usage, and then hijacked by athletes. The first succesful trial of the synthetic hormone EPO was published in 1987. The FDA first approved it for use in 1989 which is when production for sales started, it was used for the treatments of cancer, it was part of Armstrongs cancer therapy, later to be part of his cycling training and of course he used it before getting cancer, but there was also more advanced improved perfomance enhancing drugs by 1999. Ironically there was a shortage of EPO for cancer patients as the athletes were buying it up, paying higher prices for the stuff on the black market. EPO causes the blood to thicken and the heart can't then pump the blood which is what has caused the deaths in the early 90's among cyclists. Athletes take aspirin to thin the blood and do alot of stretching to counter-act the thickening of the blood. Thickening blood isn't a problem when they are racing but when they are resting it can stop the heart. Lances team car, and others known to be doping, used to carry unusual quantities of aspirin from stage to stage, they were seen purchasing laughable quantities of the stuff at local pharmacies along the stage routes (along with alot of ice for the EPO). Of course everyone knew why they were using so much aspirin but being caught buying the stuff wasn't illegal and the team doctors gave some pathetic lame excuse when questioned by the odd journalist, obviously superfit atheletes dont need huge quantities of aspirin and cortisone for legitimate use.

Speeds in cycling and track running both started to increase quite significantly from 1989 for running and 1991 for cycling, coinciding with EPO's introduction in those sports. Results for the drugs improved as the doctors and trainers learnt how to get the most out of the drugs without killing the athletes. This is when it became systemic doping among cycling teams and each team had a significant doping budget, and a cyclist wouldn't be employed at this time unless he contributed to the doping budget and took the best drugs to get the best results for the sponsors. That was until 1998 when the scandal of that year changed alot for many teams and many other teams continued to dope as before and had an even bigger advantage now as some of their rivals couldn't dope as much, depending what team they were on because some of the bigger sponsors really did demand their riders were clean (cleaner anway) while others took the chance to steal a march on their now cleaner and slower rivals, and no team took more advantage or had less dignity than Lances team. His team was last place in the 1998 by a distance and went on to dominate procycling, Lance and his other USPS teammates were now suddenly performing way above anything they had done previously and they were much too old for it to be explained naturally, and their new boss in 1999 onwards was Bruyneel, a man known to have been doped to the gills while with the spanish ONCE team (their doctor was caught doping his riders).

In truth most acting organisations still don't want to test for EPO as they dont want bad publicity (sponsors dropping out at an alarming rate, sponsorship money keeps pro sport alive), there are only a few individuals making real efforts to stamp out doping. The cycling authorities know al about EPO abuse and have the haematocrit levels of all the cyclists, ye they don't use those percentages as a guide and have a 50% rule, which means cyclists were effectively given the green light to take EPO to boost their haematocrit to 50%, which is why so many are at 49.5% during the season, and drop back to normal levels for winter. around 39% is considered normal, if an individual has a naturally higher haematocrit then this is to his natural advantage, but under the current rules this advantage is removed by the artificial boosting to 50%. Some people imagine that if doping was removed that the results would be the same just at slower speeds but this isn't the case. EPO served to level the field and the natural Tour riders had lost their advantage over the rest of the good riders. It is unlikely Lance would ever have won the Tour if it was a level playing field. He was never a serious Tour contender before teaming up with Bruyneel and a particular trainer notorius for drugs abuses (most effective doping being his speciality)

[tim the trip]

good post,i am awear of all the above. its the same set of facts &figured published in the pantani book, any many others, such as ironwill etc.
the lab that had the lists with roches name and pantanis name in code where engaged in illegal epo theraphy as far back as 84. blood letting was thought 1912 i think. again in the 60s and clinicaly in the 80s.
a swiss lab i think according to the pantani book.

http://expasy.org/prolune/pdf/prolune002_en.pdf
nice link for anyone looking for the basics..

[chabal]

good post,i am awear of all the above. its the same set of facts &figured published in the pantani book, any many others, such as ironwill etc.
the lab that had the lists with roches name and pantanis name in code where engaged in illegal epo theraphy as far back as 84. blood letting was thought 1912 i think. again in the 60s and clinicaly in the 80s.
a swiss lab i think according to the pantani book.

http://expasy.org/prolune/pdf/prolune002_en.pdf
nice link for anyone looking for the basics..

synthetic or genetically engineered EPO wasn't in production in the world prior to 1988, and wasn't available until after FDA approval in 1989 so where did they get it??? Are you sure you are not confusing blood transfusions and many other blood doping practices with synthetic EPO abuse which couldn't begin until after they started producing the stuff. Drug taking in cycling goes way back to the 1920's and earlier. There was a protest in the 20's by 2 brothers (I think their names was Pellisier), one of whom had been a previous champion, was quarreling with the organisers of the race, maybe even somewhat similar to the hurlers with the Frank combover Murphy. As a way of getting back at the organisers they allowed themselves to be photographed crossing the finishing line of a stage while carrying drugs for the cameras to pick up and I think they gave an interview discussing drug use in cycling.
In 1904 Olympics a marathon runner is reported to have used strychnine injections in the race.

Blood doping in sport really took off in the 70's. EPO made blood doping easier and cleaner from 1989 onwards.

I met Pantani when he was procycling, I haven't read the book about him, I think I recall someone telling me the book speculated his death could have been murder??? Did the book mention anything about that.

[tim the trip]

you must be right then. i thought the practice of doping blood so that the corpuscls{s.p.} could carry more oxygen was all e.p.o. based.if it didnot exist since the 89/90 then i have no case, even the end result seems very similar.
makes the blood so thick that the many teams on the tours had to sleep with heart rate monitors incase there resting heart rate dropped below 30 ish. the blood would be so thick that at that rate the heart would arrest. when the alarm went off, up they would get, and on tho the stationary bike to raise the resting heart rate.
and all this between stages. when i read this, i was sick. spoilt the sport for me.

pantani book? some read. his coke addiction/ego killed him in the end. they made him scape goat and i felt sorry for him , such a fall from grace. one only 3 to win the giro and the tour i think. the book mentions rumors speculated by many,but leaves it openfor you to make your own mind up...

do you ride?

[chabal]

pantani, one of only 3 to win the giro and the tour i think

Merckx, Hinault, Roche and Indurain did the double, I think Coppi and Anquetil did it also

I used cycle quite a bit when I lived in Europe, it is a big hobby and sport on the continent

[raZor]

Nice argument yer having there lads, probably deserves a thread on its own.


I'm not being sarcastic either!

[chabal]

McThDshEgU0

[chabal]

wonderful try in the last few minutes

Eqg5B4XY8-o

[tim the trip]

Nice argument yer having there lads, probably deserves a thread on its own.


I'm not being sarcastic either!

im all for thread on other sports. the gaa and soccarballs have this fourm ruined. plenty of great cork sports men and women never took to a pitch in their lives.kudos to chabal. knows his cycling no doubt. im coming at it from the triathlon side of things ,so am at catch up with the history.

[ebenezer]

Phil Taylor winning a game of darts.

[chabal]

Phil Taylor winning a game of darts.

Darts is a pub game rather than a sport but the guy is obviously shit hot at it

VcOgcdZZeyA

[Coin]

chabal, you still haven't addressed why you stuck up video of Kelly and Roche. Both were cheating, and I see no difference between what they did and what Armstrong did. The arms race started when blood doping got good in the early 80's, ratcheted up a notch when EPO started killing people in 87/88 and moved on when US Postal took on the challenge of really systematizing it. It was a progression, all were as guilty as each other.

One of your earlier posts said that "those were great times". No they weren't, they were the start of when cycling was practically destroyed. My problem here is not with the bulk of your facts, its with the fact that you're skewing it a few years forward, and it looks like you're doing it to get the Irish guys out of the time frame. They were as bad as the rest.

[chabal]

I have explained in part why there was a difference, would take a long time to explain and unless you had an insight into what procycling was like in the 80's, 90's and after 1998 then you mightn't understand.

anyhow I posted those clips cos they were 2 great moments at the time, even though they have been tainted since. I was only a young fella when they were racing and I recall celebrating those victories, they were great at the time. The outside world was still fairly ignorant to drugs abuses in sport prior to Ben Johnsons Olympics exit and it wasn't until 1998 that the true extent of it became known to the wider public, and even then it took more scandals in other sports besides cycling before the public realised the entire Olympics was a sham also.

You are very wrong to imagine Kelly and Roche were the start of when cycling was destroyed, their careers was in the 80's which was largely the same as what went on in the 70's, taking drugs that did enhance performance but not greatly, but obviously enough to make a significant difference. Things in cycling got far worse after 1991 and the drugs were more dangerous and alot more effective.

In Roche and Kellys time it was hard to blame the individuals exclusively as the training programmes were largely influenced by the teams, and if you wanted a job as a pro after years of training and success as an amateur then you simply took what you were given. This practice escalated badly after 1991.

However after 1998 that all changed and alot of elements in the sport attempted to bring the sport into a new cleaner direction. Many of the team sponsors now felt compelled to change their stance and encourage the teams to ride clean, the doping budgets abolished and each rider was responsible for being clean (as opposed to the team being responsible). Many riders and teams went clean and if you look at those teams performances pre 1998 and after 1998 the results are there to see. However corrupt individuals like Armstrong did a huge disservice to the sport by forging on with the drugs cheating, which was real in-your-face stuff, because anyone who knew anything about cycling knew his results and times were only possible using drugs. Fortunately for him, a large and patriotic american audience knew almost nothing about the sport and supported him without question, simply assuming he was clean because he got sick once, that is until he retired and 2 of his high profile teammates were caught doping, one at the olympics and one in the tour. When Lance made his return to procycling the sport was in Crisis, there was alot of talk of cancelling the 1999 Tour altogether. It was the first time the organisers made a real effort to have a clean race, they were simply forced to by the sponsors and many of the teams and riders responded positively. However Lance Armstrong merely laughed in the faces of the clean riders and carried on cheating and the organisers were near powerless to prevent it. Then when Lance failed the drugs test in the 1999 Tour, the organisers were simply forced to pardon him by the sponsors, thus giving him the green light to continue cheating, and Lance personally did quite alot to end the careers of a number of riders who were going clean and documenting their story which was getting coverage. Lances drug-taking and behaviour in the peloton was alot more cynical than anything Roche or Kelly did. And I do know that in principle both Roche and Kelly did not like drugs in the sport but went along with taking what everyone else took, which isn't excusable by any means, but is alot more understandable than the behaviour of Armstrong. I know that when Roche became a big draw and was paid to attend some local races (which paid well) he insisted on a doctor being present to take official dope tests prior to the start which would mean the race would be relatively clean, he was one of only a few who did such a thing, even Kimmage refered to it in his book. That wish would be granted, but of course at the start of the race Roche would be informed by the race organisers that the doctor had to cancel at the last minute, effectively turning the race into a free-for all to take what you liked (the doctors wouldn't have been booked in the first place, the organisers of cycle races at that time were happy to have the cyclists cheating, just didn't want the public to know about it, the drugs tests were mostly a sham in those days)

The situation and era Roche and Kelly was in really was quite different, you could say they were simply doing what everyone else was doing. After 1998 the cyclists were given a real choice by their teams, but Armstrong put huge pressure on the teams going clean to either give up the sport altogether or to cheat like him, he needlessly openly welcomed back convicted cheats like Virenque back into the sport giving out the worst messages when public opinion on the continenent was in favour of stricter sentences against the convicted cheats.

You are wrong to say EPO started killing people in 87/88, it wasn't on the market until 1989 and cyclists didn't use it til 1991, already through this with another poster. Name a cyclist using EPO in 87, and name a cyclist killed by the drug before 1990. or are you merely making guesses. You say I am skewing the facts when you are obviously ignorant on the subject and have decided the story line for yourself. EPO wasn't on the market until 1989. Name the company producing and supplying EPO to athletes in 1987?

USPS did not lead the challenge of really systemising EPO abuse, I have already said that was done by all the major teams from the early to mid 90's. USPS continued the process after 1998 when some of the other teams decided to stop.

Anyhow, perhaps you are reading too much into the purpose of posting that clip of those 2 events. There were 2 big events at the time and I enjoyed it at the time and I look back on them as great times for Irish sport at the times they occured, even if we have learnt different in hindsight.

[xvis]

Topical...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2009/mar/06/roy-keane-diego-maradona

The Joy of Six: great individual performancesFrom Roy Keane leading United back from dead in Turin to Claudio Gentile suffocating El Diego dry, we select half-a-dozen great individual football displays

1) Roy Keane, Juventus 2-3 MANCHESTER UNITED, Champions League semi-final, 21/04/1999


Roy Keane has always inspired an almost dangerously intense, Tyler Durdenish devotion among his disciples, and so it is that mention of Turin makes thousands of grown men - the sort who wouldn't flinch at a funeral - go misty-eyed . Yet as outstanding as Keane was in Turin, it's arguable that: a) he has played better; and b) the majority misunderstand the nature of his performance. When people think of Keane they think of a defensive midfielder, shutting down opposition teams through either snarling desire (see Arsenal in January 2000) or forensic intelligence (Liverpool in the 1996 FA Cup final, his best performance in the opinion of some). In Turin, however, his most significant contribution was offensive: not just his richly symbolic goal to get United back in the contest, but his rhythmic, hypnotic passing, particularly at 2-0 down, that got United going and broke the will of Juventus, who looked into his eyes and saw only an absolute certainty that United would go through. They would have been less scared had Keyser Söze walked on to the pitch.

That's the paradox: Keane did his very best work at 2-0, yet we hear constantly of how he reacted to knowing he wouldn't be able to play in the final – the result of a booking at 2-1. Sir Alex Ferguson said he "felt it was an honour to be associated with such a player," but the suspicion lingers that, had he not been booked, we would not have heard nearly as much about this performance. Indeed Tuttosport, able to appraise the game free of sentiment, concentrated on the football genius of – and you'll like this – Andy Cole, who they said produced "a truly wonderful display of football". Keane himself called the fuss "embarrassing", an appraisal we can only partly ascribe to self-deprecation. Not that it matters: the legend of Turin will only grow and grow.


2) Dietmar Hamann, LIVERPOOL 3-3 Milan, Champions League final, 25/05/2005

There is no knocking Steven Gerrard's contribution to Liverpool's famous Istanbul miracle: scoring the goal which kickstarted the mother of all comebacks, winning a penalty, and keeping Serginho quiet for the best part of an hour at right back is a fair day's graft for a fair day's pay. He's usually afforded man-of-the-match status for this, but sadly there's an elephant in the room: Liverpool wouldn't have been three goals down if Kaka, Andrea Pirlo and Gino Gatusso hadn't played ring-a-ring-a-roses around him during the first half, as Gerrard played in his favoured position, the Central Midfield Role He Doesn't Have The Nous To Fill (also known colloquially as The Beckham).

While Rafa Benítez might have made an initial balls-up of his half-time reorganisation – at one point, due to a chalkboard malfunction, he was going to field 12 men, then at another only 10 – he was wise enough to feature the substitute Dietmar Hamann in both of those line-ups. Hamann was detailed to get tight on Kaka, and put his foot on the ball whenever it came to him – before calmly lofting it straight down the middle of the pitch, forcing Jaap Stam and Alessandro Nesta to turn again and again. Hamann executed the plan perfectly. Tackles were won. Balls were looped forward again and again. Stam and Nesta became dizzy, then giddy, then sick. After Liverpool drew level, Milan reasserted themselves for the remainder of the match, but with the wise head of Hamann marshalling the Liverpool midfield, Kaka and co never had the same influence. Gerrard took the plaudits for his spectacular role in Liverpool's eventual win, but there was no doubt who was really pulling the strings. Although Hamann nearly did miss his penalty, but let's gloss over that.

[Coin]

unless you had an insight into what procycling was like in the 80's, 90's and after 1998 then you mightn't understand.

As anyone on here will tell you, I don't get into these detailed debates unless I know what I'm talking about. I'm not a cyclist, but I've spent a long, long time talking about this this with people who've been part of teams for many years.

You are very wrong to imagine Kelly and Roche were the start of when cycling was destroyed, their careers was in the 80's which was largely the same as what went on in the 70's, taking drugs that did enhance performance but not greatly, but obviously enough to make a significant difference. Things in cycling got far worse after 1991 and the drugs were more dangerous and alot more effective.

In Roche and Kellys time it was hard to blame the individuals exclusively as the training programmes were largely influenced by the teams, and if you wanted a job as a pro after years of training and success as an amateur then you simply took what you were given. This practice escalated badly after 1991.

You persist in thinking there's a difference between cheaters in the 80's and cheaters later on. Cheating is a mentality. There aren't levels of taking performance enhancers. They did it to cheat. They thought it would help them win. Effectiveness of the drugs is irrelevant, they took them knowing it was cheating. Later on, people got better at it, as is the way of life. The mentality was the same.


Name a cyclist using EPO in 87, and name a cyclist killed by the drug before 1990.

I'll be back to you on this, I need to talk to people.

Anyhow, perhaps you are reading too much into the purpose of posting that clip of those 2 events. There were 2 big events at the time and I enjoyed it at the time and I look back on them as great times for Irish sport at the times they occured, even if we have learnt different in hindsight.
I think these events should be purged from the record. It was sickening watching Kelly on the olypmic broadcasts last year.

Those events are two fingers to anyone who loves the spirit of true competition in sports, and who understands that it is not winning, but giving everything in the cause of winning that matters. They should be kept only as a warning of how to destroy a sport.

[Proinsias]

Has anyone mentioned Munster yet?

Or that Roy Keane performance in the CL semi-final against Juve?

[tim the trip]

chabal has his official time line right , but his continued use of "the f.d.a. hadent registered e.p.o. yet so it didint even exist " argument is far from ironclad.
in the sport of powrerlifting, many of the anabolics such as dinabol ,anabar,anabol sustonol etc, where in use long b4 they where accredited to any governing medical or druc control bodys, such as the f.d.a. and yes,b4 its pointed out, i do know the difference between blood letting, blood doping and anabolic compounds.

the assumption that every cheating cyclist just started taking e.p.o. around the same years is laughable at best. and with regards naming a cyclist?? hello...anyone who would have gotten away with somthing like this while in trial/experimental stage would not be inclined to blow their cover.

now i will agree that im using parameters from usual drug testing protocol from another sport and using it on cycling, but it seems like common sence to me.

just my opinions at the end of the day, chabal. not an attack on you i arree with everything else you posted, especially your defence of roche/kelly, i just think e.p.o. was around up to 10 years b41990.
maybe im right, maybe not.
nice chewing the fat with you lads.

[Coin]

The growth hormone Barry Bonds was taking was totally unknown to any drug authority. It was manufactured by a small lab, where some guy had come across a description of a drug that was formulated in the 60's by one of the large pharma's, but never went beyond the research stage because it was superceded by something more effective. It was basically forgotten about and so there were no tests for it. It got to the sprinting community and was going great guns until a competing coach found a used syringe and sent it to the US anti-doping agency.

There clearly exist back-channels by which athletes can get their hands on stuff that hardly anyone knows about.

[chabal]

I'll be back to you on this, I need to talk to people.


LOL, that is exactly the bullshit reply I expected. Just admit you don't know what you are talking about, you are making guesses, you can't even name 1 cyclist who took EPO in 1987 yet you claim many did, you can't name 1 cyclist who died of EPO before 1990 yet you clain many did. Well if you are making these claims then it must be based on something other than pure guesswork.

You are talking shit. EPO wasn't available until 1989. Name a source of EPO prior to that. It took approx 2 years before it filtered through to the peloton. If you want to contradict the known facts then at least name sources and names, don't merely contradict based on ignorance and guesswork. Perhaps you are too arrogant to admit you are mistaken.

For you own information EPO was first sold in June 1989 by Amgen, it was produced primarily for Kidney issues. Unlike you I don't merely make wild foolish guesses and claim them to be facts.

[wunhunglo]

Great memories.

iC9dRA15F9s

[tim the trip]

that horse was e.p.o'ed out of its head.

[mightyquark]

Kilkenny doing some perch Knocking............
Possibly to be followed by Sir Alex Fergusson doing the same thing.

[shamoverhere]

You're forgetting Dion O'Cuinnegain captaining the Irish rugby team.

for shame

[Coin]

Unlike you I don't merely make wild foolish guesses and claim them to be facts.
I've been on this site for a few years now. Can anyone think of any time I made wild foolish guesses or claimed anything to be a fact that I wasn't absolutely certain of?

chabal, you didn't address this:
Those events are two fingers to anyone who loves the spirit of true competition in sports, and who understands that it is not winning, but giving everything in the cause of winning that matters. They should be kept only as a warning of how to destroy a sport.

[chabal]

don't sidestep the claims you made. You claimed to KNOW cyclists had taken EPO in 1987 and claimed to KNOW cyclists died of EPO useage in 1987/1988. If you KNOW then you don't have to run off to ask someone else. Just admit you were mistaken, because it is clearly obvious. Otherwise you wouldn't have said you needed to ask someone else, that just demonstrates you don't know.

You are trying to change the subject, but I already posted what I wanted on those youtube clips. You seem to be very bitter about it, whereas I accept it happened, it was wrong, but it doesn't change the fact that at the moment those events occured that the Irish people celebrated, what we discovered later doesn't change the fact that the nation celebrated, those clips are merely a memory of that celebration, you want to erase it like it never happened, but just isn't possible, it happened, try to be more mature about it. If we knew then what we know now then we wouldn't have celebrated but that is neither here nor there. And I think you don't really understand what it was like in procycling, it is very easy to condemn from the sidelines but for those who were very passionate about their sport and had a chance to make a career out of it, it must have been a very difficult decision to get involved with drugs, for others the choice came easier, but to merely condemn like a schoolteacher on the sidelines without understanding the whole issue isn't right either. Anyway I have already said what I wanted to say on it, I don't celebrate cycling now at all, but it still doesn't change the fact that at the time the nation celebrated the careers of Roche and Kelly, and there was huge support from the Nissan Classics and the Kellogs city races, we enjoyed them at the times they occured, it is just infantile to pretend it never happened or to even feel bitter about it, we cant change it now. And it is just stupid to say Roche and Kelly destroyed the sport, they didn't change anything in the sport, they just went with the flow, took what they were asked to take by their teams, the same stuff all the others were being asked to take. Maybe you should get down off your high-horse, the drug taking in the 70's and 80's and even 90's was much more the fault of the entire cycling system rather than the individuals cyclists fault. It was a team event and the riders took what the teams who paid their wages told them to take. That changed after 1998. You are entitled to your views, I am to mine and I have no desire to discuss it further with you.

However, you still attempted to contradict me on the availability of EPO and when cyclists started using it and you are just wrong in your claims and you haven't yet corrected it. Tell us what you know without asking anyone else or just admit you were mistaken.

[Coin]

I told you I had to talk to someone, and I did. I was told a long time ago, by someone who loves cycling above all else and hates what has happened, that people started dieing from EPO in 1987, which is why I posted it originally. Two names: Johannes Draaijer and Bert Oosterbosch.
What do you think of this, written in 1991:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D 0CE7DF123DF93AA25756 C0A967958260&sec=health&pagewanted=all
Doctors and blood specialists say the drug may be implicated in the deaths of as many as 18 European professional bicycle racers in the last four years.

Drug Called a Factor
Only anecdotal evidence links EPO to these deaths. But the specialists say they believe the drug was a factor in at least some of the deaths.
"There is no absolute proof, but there's so much smoke that most of us are convinced," said Dr. Randy Eichner, chief of hematology at the University of Oklahoma. "You just don't get 18 deaths in 4 years, mysteriously, with 10 of them attributed to cardiac problems."......
Physicians say they believe athletes began using the drug almost with the beginning of clinical trials in 1986. Then the deaths began. In 1987 five Dutch racers died suddenly. In 1988 a Belgian and two more Dutch riders died. In 1989 five more Dutch riders died, and last year three Belgians and two Dutch riders died......
One of them was Johannes Draaijer, a 27-year-old racer from the Netherlands who finished 20th in the 1989 Tour de France. In February 1990 he died in his sleep of a heart blockage a few days after completing a race in Italy. A doctor had pronounced him fit to ride in that race, and an autopsy did not specify the cause of death. But in a television interview afterward, his widow said she hoped the death would serve as a warning to other athletes who take the drug.....
Because several companies were simultaneously pursuing approval of EPO in Europe, "the drug was available for clinical trials in large quantities," said Dr. John Adamson, president of the New York Blood Center who is leading the United States trial of Amgen's drug.Pure coincidence, I was hunting for stories about PE's in the NBA, when I came across this:

Gary Wadler, US delegate to WADA:
As many as 18 Dutch and Belgian cyclists died under similarly mysterious circumstances between 1987 and 1990.
''At first they said it was some kind of virus, a respiratory virus,'' Wadler says. ''But what kind of virus only knocks off the most fit individuals in their country? The autopsies were private. All the deaths were not definitively linked. But it was EPO. That was obvious to a lot of people.''I'm going to be honest, this is a largely academic argument. The more important point is that I think you're kidding yourself. Somewhere in the back of your mind you've categorised Kelly and Roche differently than the guys that came after. I've wondered myself how I'm going to handle it when the inevitable NBA revelation happens. As far as I know, no one has been punished for taking enhancers in the NBA, which is frankly laughable. I utterly believe that Michael Jordan was the greatest athlete of the last 30 years, but I've no idea how I'd handle it if I found out he had been cheating.

[Rebel Yell]

1 BOD v England
2. Lance Armstrongs 7 tours
3. Ali V Foreman
4. Hulk Hogan v Andre the giant

Vincent Clerc V Munster - HEC final 08....

*Snigger*

[Rebelred]

Greatest sporting covering tackle of all time:

BOD v Scotland after ROG missed his tackle

[raZor]

Greatest sporting covering tackle of all time:

BOD v Scotland after ROG missed his tackle

Mockery!

Josh lewsey had a great one on Vanikolo AFAIK, O'Leary smashed a CSA player on the line but number one has to be MOK on Regan in Twickenham a few years back.

[the puerto rican feen]

http://www.velonews.com/article/96964

[gozzy]

September 1990.

Cork complete the Double.

I now declare this thread officially closed.

[The Black Knight]

Michael Schumacher - Hungary 1998.

Still the best drive I've ever seen in F1, although there are other drives he did which are almost just as good. In fact, the way he drove that entire year was the best overall performance I've seen by any driver over a season.

[Leviathan]

USAIN BOLT
- 200m record breaking run @ World Championships in Berlin

Absolutely mind blowing how far ahead of the pack he is.
One of the greatest sporting achievements I've ever seen!