Championship Structure Review!

[bigboyfoolish]

There is a lot of talk lads about
a major review of the qualifier system

It was mooted first on the Sunday Game last night.

Kevin McStay said he felt 'there is something missing that he can't put his finger on'.
Anyone agree?

Two teams contested yesterdays final having been beatn along the way.

Should it even be called a Championship anymore?


Down beat Tyrone. Tyrone win the All Ireland.

Cork beat Kerry. Kerry come back and beat Cork in the semi final.

Dublin hammer Wexford.
Wexford get to a semi and the Dub's are gone at Q/F stage.

Armagh win the Ulster title and get knocked out by that very same Wexford side.

Galway win the Connaught title and are rewarded with a tie against Kerry.


Is there any point in winning your Provincial Title anymore?
Should the qualifiers be reviewed?
Should we incentivise the Provincial Titles more?
And how do you that?
Home draw in quarter finals?

[stevetharlear]

Home draw quarters will never happen I'd say, like the FA with Wembley (putting finances ahead of what's best for the teams/ fans), the quarters will always be held in HQ.

I don't agree with changing what we have, for example, IMO the 2 best teams in the country contested the final on Sunday, whether they came good through the qualifiers or not, by late August they were on their games and better than anyone else.

Armagh were well beaten by Wexford at the business end of the Championship, Dublin by Tyrone, and Galway/Cork by Kerry. It's up to the provincial winners to be sure they're in the correct frame of mind for these games.

[bigboyfoolish]

That's fair enough but are the Provincial Championships suffering as a result?
What's the point in having them at all?

Where's the reward when your opponent has been beaten already in our case, you haven't yet no second chance for you.

Like, how aggreieved must Galway feel..?

Very poor crowd at Cork and Kerry.

Tyrone would have found it easier to plough through Mayo WestMeath Wexford than having had to face the likes of Armagh Donegal and Derry.

[bigboyfoolish]

I think they have to create a better incentive to win the Province but you are bang on the money. The best two teams in the country got to the final no question..

and it was a cracking game of football..

[Eoin]

I think, like hurling, the provincial championships need to be gotten rid of.

Its not fair that Ulster teams have to come through a ridiculously hard championship whereas COrk adn Kerry can jsut stroll through Munster.

[RonnyB]

I think, like hurling, the provincial championships need to be gotten rid of.

Its not fair that Ulster teams have to come through a ridiculously hard championship whereas COrk adn Kerry can jsut stroll through Munster.

I agree, as long as theres a back door then the Provincial championships are only the shortest route to success rather than a sign of a teams quality. I still love Munster Final day in Thurles & Killarney but this year we had our big Sunday in Thurles against Clare when everything mattered. The fact that it wasnt the Munster final took nothing away from the build up & the drama IMO.

For me it has to come down to a Champions League group style format in both codes. Once the groups are over its straight knock out determined by a draw dependant on placings within the group (winners, 2nd, etc.)

I do agree we had the best 2 teams in the country playing on Sunday, however that occured through circumstance. What if Kerry had drawn Armagh in the 1/4's? We wouldnt have had that final pairing & the great game we witnessed.

[Atlanger]

Step 1
4 "Provinces": North, South, East, West.

South: Cork, Kerry, Clare, Limerick, Tippereary, Waterford, Wexford, London
West: Galway, Mayo, Leitrim, Sligo, Roscommon, Donegal, Westmeath, Longford
North: Antrim, Derry, Down, Cavan, Monaghan, Armagh, Fermanagh, Tyrone
East: Dublin, Louth, Meath, Offaly, Carlow, Kildare, Wicklow, Laois

Yes, forget about Kilkenny, and Donegal are debatable in terms of being a Connacht team. You could move Offaly to Connacht, leave Donegal where they are, and move Cavan or Monaghan to Leinster.

Step 2
2 groups of 4 in each province, seeded on track record.

Step 3
Top 2 in each group play Provincial semis.

Step 4
Provincial Champions move on to All-Ireland semis.
No backdoor. Clean and crisp.

[west cork rebel]

What could happen is that the provincial championships are separate to the All Ireland, so carry on as we are as far as the provincial championships are concerned, then for Sam Maguire/Liam McCarthy we could have a 'champions league' type format, I do understand that this does include quite a lot of games, but with enough tinkering I think it could be done.

[bigboyfoolish]

Step 1
4 "Provinces": North, South, East, West.

South: Cork, Kerry, Clare, Limerick, Tippereary, Waterford, Wexford, London
West: Galway, Mayo, Leitrim, Sligo, Roscommon, Donegal, Westmeath, Longford
North: Antrim, Derry, Down, Cavan, Monaghan, Armagh, Fermanagh, Tyrone
East: Dublin, Louth, Meath, Offaly, Carlow, Kildare, Wicklow, Laois

Yes, forget about Kilkenny, and Donegal are debatable in terms of being a Connacht team. You could move Offaly to Connacht, leave Donegal where they are, and move Cavan or Monaghan to Leinster.

Step 2
2 groups of 4 in each province, seeded on track record.

Step 3
Top 2 in each group play Provincial semis.

Step 4
Provincial Champions move on to All-Ireland semis.
No backdoor. Clean and crisp.

You operating on a Home and Away basis?
If so.. Then it's gonna take ten matches to win the All Ireland.
If so.. what impact will that have on the club scene?
If so.. Where and when are you going to stage all these extra games..?
Tyrone had to play 8 matches this year to win it I hear you shout.
Not every county in Ireland is consumed by the GAA like Tyrone is and can afford to run off it's club championship in conjunction with the inter county scene.

If not on a home and away basis then how do you decide choice of venue?
Toss of a coin..?

[bigboyfoolish]

What could happen is that the provincial championships are separate to the All Ireland, so carry on as we are as far as the provincial championships are concerned, then for Sam Maguire/Liam McCarthy we could have a 'champions league' type format, I do understand that this does include quite a lot of games, but with enough tinkering I think it could be done.



I'm not too sure about that WCR..

I think it has to be one or the other.

We've had 8 years of the back door at this stage and
I definitely think it's time for review.

Qualifiers have been a success. no question about that..
It needs tweaking though..

[bombdiggity]

http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID= 119102

More talk about Championship reviews..
Munster Final Day is great but is it holding back the Championship overall?
How many teams can compete at the highest level?
10-12 max
Should we be seeing more matches every year.
As in all the top teams playing each other..

[Swoosh]

The obvious answer is to abolish the back door at inter county level and go back to the old championship structure. That way if your county is beaten early your club games can go ahead at a normal pace with a bit of structure rather than the rush off to get them played we see every autumn. the players involved have enough teams to be playing with to get the most from the efforts they put in

the back door only increases revenue for the GAA and that is why they dont want rid of it.

[Lapsy Pa]

The obvious answer is to abolish the back door at inter county level and go back to the old championship structure. That way if your county is beaten early your club games can go ahead at a normal pace with a bit of structure rather than the rush off to get them played we see every autumn. the players involved have enough teams to be playing with to get the most from the efforts they put in

the back door only increases revenue for the GAA and that is why they dont want rid of it.

I doubt if the GAA will ever get rid of the backdoor even though it has outlived its purpose at this stage, too much money to be made from it. The print media and RTE have too much invested in this than to dramatically reduce the number of games played, it all comes back to revenue.

It would lead to a far better, condensed championship with higher intensity levels. Imagine going up to Thurles or down to Killarney knowing the loser is gone from the championship. Cutthroat wouldn't be the word for it.

[BlackAvon08]

I doubt if the GAA will ever get rid of the backdoor even though it has outlived its purpose at this stage, too much money to be made from it. The print media and RTE have too much invested in this than to dramatically reduce the number of games played, it all comes back to revenue.

It would lead to a far better, condensed championship with higher intensity levels. Imagine going up to Thurles or down to Killarney knowing the loser is gone from the championship. Cutthroat wouldn't be the word for it.

It is the way it should be. Those days were magical - do or die stuff.

[bombdiggity]

anyone hear Mickey Harte's proposal yesterday on Sunday Sport on Radio 1 regarding the football Championship. Very interesting.
And deffo food for thought.
He reckons the winners of the four provincial championships should be paired off against each in the first of two quarterfinals.
Two winners obviously straight through to semi finals.
The other two quarterfinals should be the two losing provincial winners from that to play only TWO teams coming through the qualifier system into quarter finals{as opposed to four whcih it currently stands- ie make them play an extra round of qualifiers}
So this year for instance had it been in operation Cork V Tyrone and Mayo V Dublin.
Cork and Dublin win and get to semis.
Tyrone and Mayo are paired off with two qualifier teams.
The only negative is that it could be argued provincial winners get two bites at what are effectively quarterfinals but that can be addressed with a little window dressing through naming conventions.

But the provincial winners get a second bite and not as in Dublin's case where the win five Leinsters and then get dumped out. It also increases the value of winning a Provincial title and makes the back door less appeasing.

I think there's real merit in it.

[Atlanger]

anyone hear Mickey Harte's proposal yesterday on Sunday Sport on Radio 1 regarding the football Championship. Very interesting.
And deffo food for thought.
He reckons the winners of the four provincial championships should be paired off against each in the first of two quarterfinals.
Two winners obviously straight through to semi finals.
The other two quarterfinals should be the two losing provincial winners from that to play only TWO teams coming through the qualifier system into quarter finals{as opposed to four whcih it currently stands- ie make them play an extra round of qualifiers}
So this year for instance had it been in operation Cork V Tyrone and Mayo V Dublin.
Cork and Dublin win and get to semis.
Tyrone and Mayo are paired off with two qualifier teams.
The only negative is that it could be argued provincial winners get two bites at what are effectively quarterfinals but that can be addressed with a little window dressing through naming conventions.

But the provincial winners get a second bite and not as in Dublin's case where the win five Leinsters and then get dumped out. It also increases the value of winning a Provincial title and makes the back door less appeasing.

I think there's real merit in it.

I've heard that one before, but it still potentially throws up the same problem as the current setup, which that the first game a beaten finalist might lose might be the All-Ireland itself, and potentially to a team that's already lost a game. I just don't think it's fair that an unbeaten team can lose the all-ireland to a team has already lost a match. They have double elimination over here in America, which is basically what the back door is for every team but the provincial champions. Is there a way that could work for the All-Ireland and the provincial champs.

[Swoosh]

I doubt if the GAA will ever get rid of the backdoor even though it has outlived its purpose at this stage, too much money to be made from it. The print media and RTE have too much invested in this than to dramatically reduce the number of games played, it all comes back to revenue.

It would lead to a far better, condensed championship with higher intensity levels. Imagine going up to Thurles or down to Killarney knowing the loser is gone from the championship. Cutthroat wouldn't be the word for it.

Intercounty players dont need a second chance. Fair enough for the ordinary joe club teams and those intercounty players always have enough teams calling on their services to keep them busy

[JTC]

Why not separate the provincial from the Championship, still play provincials but merge them into the league, with the league operating on the “old” Championship format, with the 1st Division Semi Finals consisting of the provincial champions, the 2nd Division of the beaten provincial finalists and so on.

The “new” Championship would then be an open draw from the start, like qualifiers now are, louse a game in the Championship and you are out, no second chances.

There should still be the same number of games, but with greater verity, so Kerry could draw Tyrone in the first round, Cork could get Dublin etc depending on the luck of the draw you could still get smaller counties getting as far as the Semi finals so keeping the “romantic” notions of the current system where Wexford can get within 70 minutes of a final.

The All Ireland winner is the one who hasn’t lost a game in the championship, but unlike the old system, will play more than 4 games to win it.
What do you think?

[bombdiggity]

http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID= 119837


doesn't seem to want to go away..!

[bombdiggity]

http://www.irishexaminer.co m/sport/costello-end-provincial-series-107361.html

Once again it rears its ugly head..
Doesn't seem to want to go away.
Mickey harte's suggestion seems to be gathering pace.

[Swoosh]

It needs to go back to being a straight knock out championship with an open draw for Sam forget about the provincial series. That way any trips to Killarney will once again become a great day out rather than the damp squib it is turning out to be

[bombdiggity]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2009/1216/1224260762770.html

good proposal. Think it'll make back door less appealing.
Could also revitalize the Provincial Championships which I think still
have their place.

[JTC]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2009/1216/1224260762770.html

good proposal. Think it'll make back door less appealing.
Could also revitalize the Provincial Championships which I think still
have their place.

To me it just looks like Dublin get one more game before they get beat by better teams like Cork, Kerry, Mayo, Tyrone etc, if this is brought in, you will still have people complaining that they did not lose a game until the Semi Final and they don’t get a second chance, what if you lose the Final, can Cork have second chance because Cork did not lose a game until the final?

The Championship should be an open draw from the start, lose a game and you’re finished. Than there can be no complaints.

[Eoin]

To me it just looks like Dublin get one more game before they get beat by better teams like Cork, Kerry, Mayo, Tyrone etc, if this is brought in, you will still have people complaining that they did not lose a game until the Semi Final and they don’t get a second chance, what if you lose the Final, can Cork have second chance because Cork did not lose a game until the final?

The Championship should be an open draw from the start, lose a game and you’re finished. Than there can be no complaints.

Abolish the provincial championships and have a champions league style group system, 8 groups of 4, with the top 2 in each group going into the last 16.

2 tiers in the hurling, with 4 groups of 4 in each.

[Rebelred]

Open draw in both hurling and football, first round losers get second chance, after that, straight knockout all the way.

[bombdiggity]

Everyone agrees that this is the way forward but
the problem is the provincial councils will never
allow this to happen as it would dilute their importance
and as a consequence their power.
What is worse is that we are now stuck between two
stools. We have a bit of a provincial championship, a bit of a backdoor
system, with neither truly satisfying. I think there are two ways to go.

1. Back to old school straight knock out beaten and you're gone.
2. Take on Champions league style groupings with seedings based on
your league position. The 8 teams in div 1 are the top 8 seeds and so on

[Eoin]

I think a straight knockout would be detrimental to the game, and especially the weaker counties.

If a group system was introduced, every team would be guaranteed 3 games a year. I think thats a fair amount of reward for all the hard work thats put in over the winter.

[JTC]

I think a straight knockout would be detrimental to the game, and especially the weaker counties.

If a group system was introduced, every team would be guaranteed 3 games a year. I think thats a fair amount of reward for all the hard work thats put in over the winter.

But if you had a proper open draw then the luck of the draw could see weaker counties go as far as they have under the current system, it could also mean some great games early in the Championship like Cork and Dublin in the first round or Kerry Tyrone

If the draw is seeded however, based on either a separate provincial championship or on the League than yes the weaker counties would all get eliminated in the first round as Clare end up drawing Mayo or something.

[bombdiggity]

Seeding it on the league system would make most sense because it would create a direct link between league and championship and increase the importance of doing well in the league..
as things stand the league is only a place for blooding players and some counties don't even take it that seriously..

[Agus]

They have double elimination over here in America, which is basically what the back door is for every team but the provincial champions. Is there a way that could work for the All-Ireland and the provincial champs.

If you want that, a way to do it in football would be to make each province 8 teams (with London being in rather than KK that means something like Longford plus either Donegal/Cavan joining the Connacht teams, and two of Wexford/Carlow/Offaly/Laois joining the Munster counties).

In each province, the four first-round losers play a qualifier round. The four first-round winners also play each other, with the 2 winning sides into the provinical semi-finals and the 2 losing sides having a second chance against the 2 qualifier winners. After that, straight knock-out.

[bombdiggity]

This Dublin motion about the four provincial winners playing off against each other
and the qualifiers being cut from four to two

if that gets passed (and it has a very good chance by all accounts)
does anyone know if that will that become effective immediately.
As in for this years Championship??

I'm led to believe that it will.
Once something goes through Congress it falls into practice within one month.
But can anyone confirm this?