Now The Dust Has Settled on Hurling Final 2008...!!!

[bigboyfoolish]

It's a theory and that's all it is..

Now that the dust has settled I'd like to point out a couple of things.

Kilkenny IMO are a dirty team.


This is the kind of thesis that should probably wait another few months
but can you wait as long to articulate something that bug bears.

And will it be as fresh when you reflect in a few months time?
I don't think so!

Kilkenny lost the 2004 All Ireland Final to total hurling.
It was attractive to watch and devestatingly effective.

In 2005 they met Galway and played the game the way it's meant to be played and lost out in a classic.
Arguably the only classic hurling match Kilkenny have been involved since Brian Cody took charge of the team and how ironic that it should be one that they lost.


After that game I firmly believe that Brian Cody made the decision
to close games down. Open hurling would no longer live and breath.
Shut them down. Choke them. Hit hard. Adopt the Tyrone/Meath/Armagh mantra of hunt in packs and physically intimidate your opponents into submission. Then play your hurling..

That was the Kilkenny team Cork met in 2006.


This isn't meant to denigrate hard physical play.
To the contrary. In certain aspects of their play they are to be applauded.
Their sheer hunger year on year is simply astonishing.
And everyone loves the game to be hard and tough. Cork teams back in the forties and fifties were built on that very premise.

What grates with a lot of hurling folk is the 'margin' that Kilkenny get so close to when playing tough and hard.

The New Pull and Drag
They pull and drag with a subtlety and brilliance rarely seen.
It's an amazingly effective tactic:-
*ball breaks between said Kilkenny player and opponent.
*if the opponent wins the ball cleanly {which is rare to be fair}
the right hand is used to pull and the left hand to drag just for a split second.
*The effect being the sting and momentum over the first five yards by the forward, to get away from his marker, is taken out.
*The forward having been slowed down is then met with the third man.
*sometimes even a fourth.

This can very debilitating and frustrating.

How they line up..

2004 taught Cody a major lesson.
Shut down space for the opposition forwards.
This works two fold.
It reduces the chance of conceding goals while creating space for your
own forwards.
They dropped their two midfeilders back around their own half back line and bring their midfielders back to the half way line for nearly all puck outs. But especially oppostion puck outs.
This bottles things up and restricts any space that a pitch like Croke Park should allow.
And to be fair to them they have the naturally brilliant inside line to take advantage of it when the ball breaks quickly back the other direction.

Whatever happens------NO GOALS

No secret here really. They pull you down or foul rather than concede a goal chance. Never mind a goal.. Now this is not to decree that they aren't super defenders too. Noel Hickey and JJ are fantastic players.
Tommy Walsh should have been sent off in the All Iralnd Final but that's another day's story. But they didn't concede one goal all year. {Eoin Kelly's doesn't count}
And you can't say that PJ Ryan is a super keeper. Look at how many free's they conceded against us in and around the 21 Yards line. Any remote chance of a goal then 'Bring Him Down'..


The problem I have and many hurling people is the fact that a lot of teams are going to begin to ape these tactics.

We'll have an ever increasing amount of matches that will be stop start due to bunching and crowding. Pulling and dragging. The games will be reduced to moribound affairs where cynical, negative play are becoming the norm.
I couldn't say I enjoyed one match this year with the exception of Cork V Galway. Ok a game we won and "you would say that" I hear all you shout at once...

How many times was the ball thrown in during the Cork V Kilkenny match?


How many times have Kilkenny and Cork flattered to decieve?
How many classic matches have Kilkenny been involved over the last ten years?

Who here can genuninely say {hand on heart} that they enjoy watching them?

or looks forward to watching them for that matter.

Now I might be considered a bitter Cork C*nt.
Others might think I'm a purist and just would love to see the game played in the right fashion.

If anything the New GAA is all about winning at all costs.
Maybe it is time we bought in to that.


Kilkenny, for me, play anti-Hurling.

But that's just my opinion and I suppose they're like arse holes...
everyone has one!

[KolaKubes]

Post of the year.

[legend76]

well said

[Poison]

All great teams are dirty.

Kilkenny remind me of New Zealand Rugby team.They have been a great and dirty team for years.They dont just defend but they stop you no matter what...

Just like the cats...

[KolaKubes]

All great teams are dirty.

Kilkenny remind me of New Zealand Rugby team.They have been a great and dirty team for years.They dont just defend but they stop you no matter what...

Just like the cats...

What rubbish.

[Poison]

What rubbish.

Great opinion there ....

Thanks...

[Coin]

Kilkenny, for me, play anti-Hurling.
I hate that turn of phrase. Anti-hurling, anti-football, anti-whatever. Means nothing.

Generally nice to see someone put some thought into something though.

This Kilkenny team reminds me of Michael Jordan's Bulls team when he came back from his first retirement. They had two truly great offensive players, Jordan and Pippen, but in reality they beat you down with suffocating defense. They'd come at you hard for the opening 10 minutes so that you were struggling from the start. Teams had to fight hard to establish a foothold towards the end of the first half and were mentally drained going in at half time. They tended to be sluggish coming out of the break and that's when the Bulls would stick the knife in and kill them off. Kilkenny do the same. Start fast and hammer in the nails straight after half time.

[Rebelred]

The best 15 hurlers, the best team, the most skillful hurlers, the best attackers, the best defenders, the best bench, the best ball winners, the best catchers in the air, the best hookers, the best blockers, the best at the basics, the best at the sublime, the best point scorers

Kilkenny 2008

[Lamps]

The best 15 hurlers, the best team, the most skillful hurlers, the best attackers, the best defenders, the best bench, the best ball winners, the best catchers in the air, the best hookers, the best blockers, the best at the basics, the best at the sublime, the best point scorers

Kilkenny 2008

Can I add, best coached, best tactician on the line, best setup all through the grades and hungriest team in the country

Congrats to Kilkenny. Ye've taken hurling to a whole new level, and hopefully we'll be trying to match and better it in the next few years

[Eoin]

hungriest team in the country


This says it all really, a lot of teams can lose that after being successful for so long. A few of these lads were going for 4/5/6 all-irealnds this year, and they still had as much hunger as a team that hadn't won it for decades.

[Rebelred]

Can I add, best coached, best tactician on the line, best setup all through the grades and hungriest team in the country

Congrats to Kilkenny. Ye've taken hurling to a whole new level, and hopefully we'll be trying to match and better it in the next few years

absolutely.

[Rebelred]

This says it all really, a lot of teams can lose that after being successful for so long. A few of these lads were going for 4/5/6 all-irealnds this year, and they still had as much hunger as a team that hadn't won it for decades.

Michael Kavanagh, 27 and has 6 All Ireland medals. Ring and Doyles record could well fall to this man in particular, has a few extra years on Shefflin and Brennan

[Rebel Yell]

I only wish that we can be as 'dirty' as them then ...add that to the hunger, skill and scoring rate, and maybe the rest of us can dream of getting close in the next few years...

[KolaKubes]

The best 15 hurlers, the best team, the most skillful hurlers, the best attackers, the best defenders, the best bench, the best ball winners, the best catchers in the air, the best hookers, the best blockers, the best at the basics, the best at the sublime, the best point scorers

Kilkenny 2008

Absolute nonsense.

Shefflin aside, they play a very mundane brand of hurling.

Perhaps they could play a more skillful style but not under Cody's watch.

He is an outrageous coach and has many of the KK team looking far better players in a KK jersey than they do at club or colleges level. This point was made by Cyril Farrell before the AI but it then got lost in the usual GAA way of trailing off from a rational point into a load of guff about heart, pride, the "magic of the KK shirt" and the like.

Utter rubbish.

Good players look great in great systems.

[Rebelred]

Absolute nonsense.

Shefflin aside, they play a very mundane brand of hurling.

Perhaps they could play a more skillful style but not under Cody's watch.

He is an outrageous coach and has many of the KK team looking far better players in a KK jersey than they do at club or colleges level. This point was made by Cyril Farrell before the AI but it then got lost in the usual GAA way of trailing off from a rational point into a load of guff about heart, pride, the "magic of the KK shirt" and the like.

Utter rubbish.

Good players look great in great systems.

JJ Delaney, Tommy Walsh, Cha, TJ Reid... all incredibly gifted hurlers who have every skill going.
Mundane me hole, 3-30 in an All Ireland final, 3-24 from play, 2 wides in the whole game, 2-16 in the first half alone.

If that's mundane, I'd love to see them at it full tilt!

[KolaKubes]

JJ Delaney, Tommy Walsh, Cha, TJ Reid... all incredibly gifted hurlers who have every skill going.
Mundane me hole, 3-30 in an All Ireland final, 3-24 from play, 2 wides in the whole game, 2-16 in the first half alone.

If that's mundane, I'd love to see them at it full tilt!

Even Pa Cronin can pop the ball over the bar unmarked with his side leading by 12 points.

Sorry for bringing "sokker" into it but all this is to be filed under the hype surround Wenger's invincibles and Mourinho's Chelsea.

You're beaten before you start if you start buying into the enemy's propaganda.

If we're not careful, they'll have the same psychological grip over everyone that Kerry do.

[Lamps]

Even Pa Cronin can pop the ball over the bar unmarked with his side leading by 12 points.


Wouldn't be so sure about that.

Anyhow, this is just sour grapes on some peoples part. They are a different class to the rest. Who do we have in the backline with the skill of Walsh?
Who do we have in the forwards with the skill of Sheflin, Brennan, Larkin.
Even Fitzpatrick is as good as Jerry at his peak and he was our most skillful player.

[Lamps]

Sorry for bringing "sokker" into it but all this is to be filed under the hype surround Wenger's invincibles and Mourinho's Chelsea.

You're beaten before you start if you start buying into the enemy's propaganda.

If we're not careful, they'll have the same psychological grip over everyone that Kerry do.

You forgot Fergie's mind games.

[KD Langer]

KK are the best hurling team i've ever seen, and they're are a joy to watch too IMO.

[Rebelred]

Even Pa Cronin can pop the ball over the bar unmarked with his side leading by 12 points.

Sorry for bringing "sokker" into it but all this is to be filed under the hype surround Wenger's invincibles and Mourinho's Chelsea.

You're beaten before you start if you start buying into the enemy's propaganda.

If we're not careful, they'll have the same psychological grip over everyone that Kerry do.
We've alot of work to do Kola, we're way off their pace. Their pace is the standard. They adapted to our running game and trumped it, the challenge is now there for us to come back and trump them. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging what they have achieved and just how good they are.

As for Pa Cronin, I wouldn't be putting my house on him.

[bigboyfoolish]

the most skillful hurlers, the best attackers, the best point scorers

Kilkenny 2008

Firstly..
that the above is all pretty much the same thing.
It does re inforce the point you make and I can accept that.:|


Secondly it probably is sour grapes on my part and I can accept that too.

I am bitter, twisted and very jealous.:(


But thirdly I think you slightly miss my point.
I think the games will degenrate into mass bunching.
The ball was thrown in 18 times between Cork and Kilkenny,.
That's like the kind of thing you see at juvenile level when kids are learning the game.

And I can in NO WAY WHATSOEVER agree that they're a good team to watch and enjoy watching them play.

[duffer31]

It's a theory and that's all it is..

Now that the dust has settled I'd like to point out a couple of things.

Kilkenny IMO are a dirty team.


This is the kind of thesis that should probably wait another few months
but can you wait as long to articulate something that bug bears.

And will it be as fresh when you reflect in a few months time?
I don't think so!

Kilkenny lost the 2004 All Ireland Final to total hurling.
It was attractive to watch and devestatingly effective.

In 2005 they met Galway and played the game the way it's meant to be played and lost out in a classic.
Arguably the only classic hurling match Kilkenny have been involved since Brian Cody took charge of the team and how ironic that it should be one that they lost.


After that game I firmly believe that Brian Cody made the decision
to close games down. Open hurling would no longer live and breath.
Shut them down. Choke them. Hit hard. Adopt the Tyrone/Meath/Armagh mantra of hunt in packs and physically intimidate your opponents into submission. Then play your hurling..

That was the Kilkenny team Cork met in 2006.


This isn't meant to denigrate hard physical play.
To the contrary. In certain aspects of their play they are to be applauded.
Their sheer hunger year on year is simply astonishing.
And everyone loves the game to be hard and tough. Cork teams back in the forties and fifties were built on that very premise.

What grates with a lot of hurling folk is the 'margin' that Kilkenny get so close to when playing tough and hard.

The New Pull and Drag
They pull and drag with a subtlety and brilliance rarely seen.
It's an amazingly effective tactic:-
*ball breaks between said Kilkenny player and opponent.
*if the opponent wins the ball cleanly {which is rare to be fair}
the right hand is used to pull and the left hand to drag just for a split second.
*The effect being the sting and momentum over the first five yards by the forward, to get away from his marker, is taken out.
*The forward having been slowed down is then met with the third man.
*sometimes even a fourth.

This can very debilitating and frustrating.

How they line up..

2004 taught Cody a major lesson.
Shut down space for the opposition forwards.
This works two fold.
It reduces the chance of conceding goals while creating space for your
own forwards.
They dropped their two midfeilders back around their own half back line and bring their midfielders back to the half way line for nearly all puck outs. But especially oppostion puck outs.
This bottles things up and restricts any space that a pitch like Croke Park should allow.
And to be fair to them they have the naturally brilliant inside line to take advantage of it when the ball breaks quickly back the other direction.

Whatever happens------NO GOALS

No secret here really. They pull you down or foul rather than concede a goal chance. Never mind a goal.. Now this is not to decree that they aren't super defenders too. Noel Hickey and JJ are fantastic players.
Tommy Walsh should have been sent off in the All Iralnd Final but that's another day's story. But they didn't concede one goal all year. {Eoin Kelly's doesn't count}
And you can't say that PJ Ryan is a super keeper. Look at how many free's they conceded against us in and around the 21 Yards line. Any remote chance of a goal then 'Bring Him Down'..


The problem I have and many hurling people is the fact that a lot of teams are going to begin to ape these tactics.

We'll have an ever increasing amount of matches that will be stop start due to bunching and crowding. Pulling and dragging. The games will be reduced to moribound affairs where cynical, negative play are becoming the norm.
I couldn't say I enjoyed one match this year with the exception of Cork V Galway. Ok a game we won and "you would say that" I hear all you shout at once...

How many times was the ball thrown in during the Cork V Kilkenny match?


How many times have Kilkenny and Cork flattered to decieve?
How many classic matches have Kilkenny been involved over the last ten years?

Who here can genuninely say {hand on heart} that they enjoy watching them?

or looks forward to watching them for that matter.

Now I might be considered a bitter Cork C*nt.
Others might think I'm a purist and just would love to see the game played in the right fashion.

If anything the New GAA is all about winning at all costs.
Maybe it is time we bought in to that.


Kilkenny, for me, play anti-Hurling.

But that's just my opinion and I suppose they're like arse holes...
everyone has one!


you really do live up to your name. great spirit and effort like. if i ever analyse anything like that please kill me...... ffs

[bigboyfoolish]

. if i ever analyse anything like that please kill me...... ffs

That was a fabulous contribution.. thanks!
It's meant to provoke debate/discussion/thoughts/musings..

That is the idea behind the "SPORTS FORUM"

least that's what I thought it was.

Hurling is in big trouble and the trouble grows year on year.

When one team wins every national competition available to them from
U-14 to Senior and when all the rest seem so far behind does it not make you question what you do/what the opposition does/where the game is going..

It's an opinion. It's not right or wrong. It's neither good or bad.

and if you're indifferent to it all then read the cricket thread or something..
If you agree or disagree fine..

If you want to be smart arsed about it, then..

[duffer31]

That was a fabulous contribution.. thanks!
It's meant to provoke debate/discussion/thoughts/musings..

That is the idea behind the "SPORTS FORUM"

least that's what I thought it was.

Hurling is in big trouble and the trouble grows year on year.
When one team wins every national competition available to them from
U-14 to Senior and when all the rest seem so far behind does it not make you question what you do/what the opposition does/where the game is going..

It's an opinion. It's not right or wrong. It's neither good or bad.

and if you're indifferent to it all then read the cricket thread or something..
If you agree or disagree fine..

If you want to be smart arsed about it, then..


you can't debate with someone who believes this so the only thing left is smart assed-ness. i agree it's your opinion but my opinion is killkenny are a joy to watch. an absolute joy. they are setting the standards for the next 10 years. i couldnt honestly agree with one thing you said but then again if i had watched or analysed games to that extent i would not have enjoyed them.you need to get laid. in fact its you who needs to read the cricket thread and get a life outside hurling analysis. i respect your opinion my friend but my god i don't agree with it. hurling is in big troulble.ffs

[KolaKubes]

you really do live up to your name. great spirit and effort like. if i ever analyse anything like that please kill me...... ffs

I'd say there's little fear of it.

And the average hurler on the ditch's ability to understand the game they're watching beyond brainless clichés about "passion" and "heart" and "pull hard" never ceases to amaze me.

We have an horrific neo-luddism associated with the game in Cork which I can only presume is some extension of the general anti-intellectualism in the place or a twisted reaction to the popularity of professional codes in the county.

Oversimplification of a game that has a range of skills and complexity that exceed the likes of soccer and rugby.

It's so counterproductive.

Can I ask folk, how do they think that KK got so good?

It wasn't by throwing out a management regime that had brought [spit] sports science and tactics to bear successfully on All-Ireland winning teams.

We may like to paint themselves (and Kerry) as ignorant bogtrotters but they're blowing us out of it at the moment with both skill levels and tactical organisation.

[Lamps]

But thirdly I think you slightly miss my point.
I think the games will degenrate into mass bunching.
The ball was thrown in 18 times between Cork and Kilkenny,.
That's like the kind of thing you see at juvenile level when kids are learning the game.


We need to improve our touch. Players this year were taking too long to do everything. Obviously this Kilkenny pressure is a factor, but if they have 3 men closing you down and you are quick enough to have it under control in a split second and move it on, then the advantage is back with us.

Plus, we need to plan with a plan next year, this year I'm not sure we did.

[Lamps]

We have an horrific neo-luddism associated with the game in Cork which I can only presume is some extension of the general anti-intellectualism in the place or a twisted reaction to the popularity of professional codes in the county.



In all fairness. Just stop

[theporge]

I think one way of beating this Kilkenny team is with quick ball; dare I say 'ground-hurling'. Let the ball go quickly along the ground rather than trying to pick it when there are 2 or 3 Kilkenny men around you. Have your forwards well out in front of their men and put the pressure on the defences, get them spread out; make them mark there men instead of zones.
Also; in my opinion, you need a keeper that can puck a ball over the half-forward line. Get the Kilkenny backs facing their own goal where they have to deal with the job at hand rather than just batting the ball down to a midfielder or half forward.

[duffer31]

I'd say there's little fear of it.

And the average hurler on the ditch's ability to understand the game they're watching beyond brainless clichés about "passion" and "heart" and "pull hard" never ceases to amaze me.

We have an horrific neo-luddism associated with the game in Cork which I can only presume is some extension of the general anti-intellectualism in the place or a twisted reaction to the popularity of professional codes in the county.

Oversimplification of a game that has a range of skills and complexity that exceed the likes of soccer and rugby.

It's so counterproductive.

Can I ask folk, how do they think that KK got so good?

It wasn't by throwing out a management regime that had brought [spit] sports science and tactics to bear successfully on All-Ireland winning teams.

We may like to paint themselves (and Kerry) as ignorant bogtrotters but they're blowing us out of it at the moment with both skill levels and tactical organisation.


for me they have a head start on most. hurling really is a religion in kk. its all a youngfella of 5 plus wants to do and will have plenty of backers/coaches/friends who live hurling to help. if your that same lad from cork well you have got football/soccer/rugby even basketball to distract you to much more of an extent than you would have in kk. kids do play other codes in kk but they are the shit hurlers......

[KolaKubes]

In all fairness. Just stop

Exhibit A for the prosecution M'Lud.

:D

[Rebelred]

I think one way of beating this Kilkenny team is with quick ball; dare I say 'ground-hurling'. Let the ball go quickly along the ground rather than trying to pick it when there are 2 or 3 Kilkenny men around you. Have your forwards well out in front of their men and put the pressure on the defences, get them spread out; make them mark there men instead of zones.
Also; in my opinion, you need a keeper that can puck a ball over the half-forward line. Get the Kilkenny backs facing their own goal where they have to deal with the job at hand rather than just batting the ball down to a midfielder or half forward.
I'd agree with ya here. The ball has to be kept moving to counteract them. If you don't get it up, then you let fly and keep the ball moving forward. It may work, may not. The weather conditions at league time aren't favourable for ground hurling either unfortunately.

One thing that was blatantly obvious in the semi final, was as Lamps said, our touch was well off what it should have been. How many times did we miss the ball or have to have two stabs at picking this. If we had been able to get it first time, we'd have been able to counteract this supposedly terrible "crowding" lark that Kilkenny do superbly. Waterford were so nervous in the final they could barely hold the sliothar in their hands at all, Kilkenny could have brought in 6 or 7 fellas around some of the Waterford play it was so slow. If the emphasis in training is placed on skill, and all of the skills, not just some, then we can get the quick ball we need to get around them.
Also on your last point, In Martin Coleman, we have a goalkeeper who could do that.

[bigboyfoolish]

you can't debate with someone who believes this so the only thing left is smart assed-ness. you need to get laid. in fact its you who needs to read the cricket thread and get a life outside hurling analysis. hurling is in big troulble.ffs


so we've moved from smart arsed to insults.. Nice one!


as for getting a life outside hurling. Thanks but no thanks!

As Ger Loughnane said "there isn't two minutes of the day go by where I don't think about hurling!"

Is that sad..? Probably..
but it's my business.

Hurling is in trouble..ffs

you don't think this is so..?

[bigboyfoolish]

for me they have a head start on most. hurling really is a religion in kk. its all a youngfella of 5 plus wants to do and will have plenty of backers/coaches/friends who live hurling to help. if your that same lad from cork well you have got football/soccer/rugby even basketball to distract you to much more of an extent than you would have in kk. kids do play other codes in kk but they are the shit hurlers......


That was extremely well thought out.

So it's as simple as that. We need more backers/coaches/friends..!

ah jaysus why am I even typing!!

[bigboyfoolish]

. If the emphasis in training is placed on skill, and all of the skills, not just some, then we can get the quick ball we need to get around them.


I don't know about that one RebelRed.. I think we have plenty of skill.
You couldn't say that the likes of Tom Kenny, Nox, the O'Connor twins, Pa Cronin, Deano etc need to improve their basic skills.


Like, the worrying thing for me is that game seems to be evolving in a way that's regressing in terms of skill. Physical fitness and raw agression are the primary attributes in establishing your authority on the game now.

Then you let your skills do the talking..

And can I just say that the best team wins the All Ireland every year.
Without question.

But every team plays with a certain style.

Waterford had that swash bucking style under Justin.
O'Grady developed the running game from the New Town blue print.
Clare under Loughnane were very physical.

What's Kilkenny's style?
Possibly a combination of all three and that's why they are so devastating!

I still don't like it.

And what do we do about it?

[Atlanger]

I think one way of beating this Kilkenny team is with quick ball; dare I say 'ground-hurling'. Let the ball go quickly along the ground rather than trying to pick it when there are 2 or 3 Kilkenny men around you. Have your forwards well out in front of their men and put the pressure on the defences, get them spread out; make them mark there men instead of zones.
Also; in my opinion, you need a keeper that can puck a ball over the half-forward line. Get the Kilkenny backs facing their own goal where they have to deal with the job at hand rather than just batting the ball down to a midfielder or half forward.

Nail on head there I'd say, on both counts. Cork would never have won the double in 1990 were it not for both of those things. The first goal came from 3ground strokes in succession. Galway were all over in the first half, but they hadn't reckoned for the wind, and when Ger Cunningham's puck outs started to drop behind their half-backs in the second half, they were well and truly goosed.

Back to the present. As other posters have pointed out, Kilkenny do not allow a clean pickup, either by fair means or the pull and drag. By the time you attempt the second pick-up, they 2 or 3 men around you. The game is up. How a policy of one pick and if that fails, then pull on it. Don't let them gather around you.

A longer puckout from our keeper would push the boundaries of their puckout strategy. How far back are they prepared to drop their midfielders and half-forwards?

These are simple answers to seemingly unanswerable questions being posed by Kilkenny. One thing I would like to see is more capability from our players and GAA players to become more tactically astute in the heat of battle. The speed of the evolution of tactical awareness within the GAA is ridiculously slow to me. Cody decides something in 2004, that he applies to all games thereafter... it just seems to me that other sports can seem to react to changing games plans within the space of that game, not that decade... the anti-intellectualism that Kola mentioned earlier perhaps.

[Coogee]

It's a theory and that's all it is..

Now that the dust has settled I'd like to point out a couple of things.

Kilkenny IMO are a dirty team.


This is the kind of thesis that should probably wait another few months
but can you wait as long to articulate something that bug bears.

And will it be as fresh when you reflect in a few months time?
I don't think so!

Kilkenny lost the 2004 All Ireland Final to total hurling.
It was attractive to watch and devestatingly effective.

In 2005 they met Galway and played the game the way it's meant to be played and lost out in a classic.
Arguably the only classic hurling match Kilkenny have been involved since Brian Cody took charge of the team and how ironic that it should be one that they lost.


After that game I firmly believe that Brian Cody made the decision
to close games down. Open hurling would no longer live and breath.
Shut them down. Choke them. Hit hard. Adopt the Tyrone/Meath/Armagh mantra of hunt in packs and physically intimidate your opponents into submission. Then play your hurling..

That was the Kilkenny team Cork met in 2006.


This isn't meant to denigrate hard physical play.
To the contrary. In certain aspects of their play they are to be applauded.
Their sheer hunger year on year is simply astonishing.
And everyone loves the game to be hard and tough. Cork teams back in the forties and fifties were built on that very premise.

What grates with a lot of hurling folk is the 'margin' that Kilkenny get so close to when playing tough and hard.

The New Pull and Drag
They pull and drag with a subtlety and brilliance rarely seen.
It's an amazingly effective tactic:-
*ball breaks between said Kilkenny player and opponent.
*if the opponent wins the ball cleanly {which is rare to be fair}
the right hand is used to pull and the left hand to drag just for a split second.
*The effect being the sting and momentum over the first five yards by the forward, to get away from his marker, is taken out.
*The forward having been slowed down is then met with the third man.
*sometimes even a fourth.

This can very debilitating and frustrating.

How they line up..

2004 taught Cody a major lesson.
Shut down space for the opposition forwards.
This works two fold.
It reduces the chance of conceding goals while creating space for your
own forwards.
They dropped their two midfeilders back around their own half back line and bring their midfielders back to the half way line for nearly all puck outs. But especially oppostion puck outs.
This bottles things up and restricts any space that a pitch like Croke Park should allow.
And to be fair to them they have the naturally brilliant inside line to take advantage of it when the ball breaks quickly back the other direction.

Whatever happens------NO GOALS

No secret here really. They pull you down or foul rather than concede a goal chance. Never mind a goal.. Now this is not to decree that they aren't super defenders too. Noel Hickey and JJ are fantastic players.
Tommy Walsh should have been sent off in the All Iralnd Final but that's another day's story. But they didn't concede one goal all year. {Eoin Kelly's doesn't count}
And you can't say that PJ Ryan is a super keeper. Look at how many free's they conceded against us in and around the 21 Yards line. Any remote chance of a goal then 'Bring Him Down'..


The problem I have and many hurling people is the fact that a lot of teams are going to begin to ape these tactics.

We'll have an ever increasing amount of matches that will be stop start due to bunching and crowding. Pulling and dragging. The games will be reduced to moribound affairs where cynical, negative play are becoming the norm.
I couldn't say I enjoyed one match this year with the exception of Cork V Galway. Ok a game we won and "you would say that" I hear all you shout at once...

How many times was the ball thrown in during the Cork V Kilkenny match?


How many times have Kilkenny and Cork flattered to decieve?
How many classic matches have Kilkenny been involved over the last ten years?

Who here can genuninely say {hand on heart} that they enjoy watching them?

or looks forward to watching them for that matter.

Now I might be considered a bitter Cork C*nt.
Others might think I'm a purist and just would love to see the game played in the right fashion.

If anything the New GAA is all about winning at all costs.
Maybe it is time we bought in to that.


Kilkenny, for me, play anti-Hurling.

But that's just my opinion and I suppose they're like arse holes...
everyone has one!


pull and drag...:lol!:....Kil kenny are not a dirty team...they just play hard and fair...if they were pulling and dragging as you suggest they would be giving away loads of frees....di#ont give me the old "Kilkenny get away with murder line"...thats the same line we hear abou the all blacks, Brazil, MAn U etc...ie successful winning teams...

[bigboyfoolish]

pull and drag...:lol!:....Kil kenny are not a dirty team...they just play hard and fair...if they were pulling and dragging as you suggest they would be giving away loads of frees....di#ont give me the old "Kilkenny get away with murder line"...thats the same line we hear abou the all blacks, Brazil, MAn U etc...ie successful winning teams...

I can't agree with you there Coogee.

Nobody ever says that kind of thing about Man Utd or Brazil.

Both those teams play with a flair and style that's very entertaining.
They play winning football and entertain at the same time.
The perfect mix.

As regards the All Blacks.. well they haven't won the WC since 1987.
So they can be as dirty as they like because they still seem to come up short.

Kilkenny play the game very very close to the line.

As John Allen points out "This will be a physical game and the Déise should be a match for the Cats in that department but it's in the 'keeping your head when all around are losing theirs' that Waterford might fall short. Because, be assured, Kilkenny will play on the margins but will also accept it on the margins. Waterford mightn't."

This is as close as you'll get anyone actually saying that they are dirty IMO..

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2008/0905/1220544893158.html

[Coin]

Like, the worrying thing for me is that game seems to be evolving in a way that's regressing in terms of skill. Physical fitness and raw agression are the primary attributes in establishing your authority on the game now.
Rubbish. Anyone at the Cork - KK semi this year could clearly see that Kilkenny's skill level was higher than Cork's, particularly when it got in close. Their ability to gather the ball into the hand under pressure was phenomenal, and was the single biggest difference between the two teams. Cork also seem to have regressed in their ability to hook and otherwise disrupt the distribution of the other team. Three or four years ago, Cork were excellent at this, but Kilkenny had the advantage there as well.

By the way, you keep declaring that hurling is in trouble. In trouble compared to what?

[bigboyfoolish]

The kind of trouble I'm talking about would be..



When one county with one of the smallest populations in the country wins
every single tournament on offer from Under 14 right up to Senior level.

When that same county has won six out of the last eight All Irelands to create a dominance that's not only disheartening but boring.



When our show piece event is won by 8 GOALS.

When for the second year in a row the All Ireland Final was over after ten minutes.

When the Wexford footballers are celebrated more importantly than their hurling counter parts.

When St Finbarrs and the Glen go 15 and 20 years respectively without winning a county title.

When as a kid there was 4 soccer leagues in the AUL in Cork.
and when there are now four leagues within each division.

Numbers playing hurling in Cork City are falling. Fact!

When Antrim are.. well what can you say about those poor guys.
Isolated/abandoned/neglected

Waterford are probably damaged for years.

Limerick is losing the fight to rugby en masse and that's a trend and feature that could become equally prevalent in Cork.

Tipp seem to have their house in order. Fair play to them.

When Galway are relying on one player and re-location to solve their problems.


That's the kind of trouble I'm talking about.
Is that fair or is it more what you called "rubbish"?

[corkoniense]

Alot of good points here, but we seem to be split into two camps on KK and are unable to see that maybe both sides have a point. What about the old French essay writing technique, thesis, antithesis, synthesis???

Example. Thesis: KK are the most skillful, aggressive, driven and best coached team in the land.

Antithesis: KK are the dirtiest, most cynical and most boring team in the land.

Synthesis: KK are one of the most skillful, the most aggressive and best coached team in the land, who also happen to be the one of the dirtiest, the most cynical and (possibly) the most clinically boring team in the land. All of which makes them the best in the land.


They hit two wides against waterford and converted 33 chances out of 37, probably the greatest conversion rate in AI final history. They keep going full belt against all teams at all times in the championship, even when winning by 17 points at half time. They have tactically defeated all teams from the off in every single game over the last 3 years, never more so than when refusing to be pulled out of position by waterford players under instruction to do so by davy fitz.

Barry Kelly is notorious for penalising players for petty indiscretions (a la donal og v galway for stepping outta the small square) yet allowing all sorts of body checks go unpunished (anyone remember hickey decapitating Neill Ronan in the first half of the 2006 final?? Not even a free boy!) In spite of the fact that he allowed this filth to happen again in the AI final, he still awarded waterford three times as many frees as he did to KK. Any time a waterford player ran with the ball direct he was dragged down within 60 metres of the kk goal. Brian Cody was the only hurling manager to come out against the sin bin when it introduced, claiming it was ruining hurling, a "man's game", even tho it was introduced to combat cynical fouling, not dirty strokes. Tommy walsh should have been sent off at least twice this year. Finally, a word re boring. Aside from some cracking points from Shefflin way out the field, at least 18 of KK's 24 points from play came from players who struck the ball on their own no more than 40 metres from goal. They brilliantly ground waterford into dust in the opening 15 mins and never took the foot off the pedal, but it was pedestrian stuff for the spectators, unless christians versus lions is your thing.

Ultimately, KK play the physical choking game as a reaction to the possession game that we brought in under O Grady, that failed to develop under Allen, and which fell off a cliff under Ger Mac. So it is really our fault. We can beat it by developing our possession game even further (short puck outs, taking scores consistently from 70 metres and drawing out their half back line in the process - we have the players for this), or we can go back to first time hurling on the ground. In fact, we could go even further back to doubling on the ball in the air, especially everything between the two 45s. If you deign to pick the ball off the ground or catch it in the air, then you must beat the four KK men around you who will each hit you with a shoulder . If you pull or double first time, then you may not play the precision pass of the possession game, but there'll be three loose Cork men waiting for it and chances are they'll do damage more often than not.


If you want to legitimately teach Tommy Walsh a lesson, you stand to the left of him as the ball drops outta the sky, you double hard but true on the ball on your weak side (his hurley will be swinging wildly to his right as he thinks you're there and he wants to hurt you), you connect beautifully with the ball and you take his fingers off, something he's had coming to him for a long time.

[bigboyfoolish]

Very considered,original and thought provoking Corkoniense.

and it is very true that this game designed by Cody was in response to our running game. Do you believe that the running game needs to evolve further and that will be the answer?

I wouldn't be too hopeful about that.. I gotta be honest..

The way they set themselves up they will never allow any team too much time on the ball and have an insatiable appetite for working/hassling/harrying/pulling/dragging..

so maybe you're bang on the money.
If you don't pick it cleanly pull first time..

Don't even bother trying to win clean possession in the air.

[stevetharlear]

I think one way of beating this Kilkenny team is with quick ball; dare I say 'ground-hurling'. Let the ball go quickly along the ground rather than trying to pick it when there are 2 or 3 Kilkenny men around you. Have your forwards well out in front of their men and put the pressure on the defences, get them spread out; make them mark there men instead of zones.
Also; in my opinion, you need a keeper that can puck a ball over the half-forward line. Get the Kilkenny backs facing their own goal where they have to deal with the job at hand rather than just batting the ball down to a midfielder or half forward.

Thing is, if there's 2 or 3 men on you when you have the ball, then there should be 1 or 2 of your teammates free, simple really, find them or find the space.

Of course as Lamps said above, if your first touch isn't right then you're screwed at any level. There's no reason for a senior intercounty team's touch and basic skills to be as bad as Cork's was this year.

[stevetharlear]

Rubbish. Anyone at the Cork - KK semi this year could clearly see that Kilkenny's skill level was higher than Cork's, particularly when it got in close. Their ability to gather the ball into the hand under pressure was phenomenal, and was the single biggest difference between the two teams. Cork also seem to have regressed in their ability to hook and otherwise disrupt the distribution of the other team. Three or four years ago, Cork were excellent at this, but Kilkenny had the advantage there as well.

By the way, you keep declaring that hurling is in trouble. In trouble compared to what?
Ya I was at that match, and you're right in one respect, they did destroy Cork at every breaking ball, by crowding out in packs.

This is no different from Armagh's 'puke' football strategy from the start of the decade.

Armagh's dominance didn't last too long...

Here's hoping...

[duffer31]

That was extremely well thought out.

So it's as simple as that. We need more backers/coaches/friends..!

ah jaysus why am I even typing!!


its a generalism but yes its a simple as that. we have to match what they are doing in every aspect of the game. would you not agree with that. i agree with the above that if you have 2 or 3 swarming around you that there must be 3 of your own men free but you need the type of player with the vision to do that in your team. the whole point of swarming you with the 3 men is so you cant do that. i would imagine any team will take an odd point on the chin if the swarming aspect of the game results in better defending stats wise. deane against clare did not have his best scoring day but 2 or 3 times he got a pass away in just this type situation and the man he found just tapped it over the bar. its easier said than done though and not all players have the required vision.in fact most dont. as for the ground hurling idea again it is good in theory and might or might not work but it really would be back to the drawing board for the county trying it as when was the last time you saw more than a handful of ground strokes in any game this year. its more often than not that the rucks and swarms are caused by players from both sides trying to pick balls in impossible situations with six players on top of each other. a good flake is whats neede here but you are never sure flaking it where it is going to end up. that type of ruck is without a doubt anti-hurling. i regularily cant believe my eyes that there is no fella cute enough to try knock it out of the ruck so to speak before picking it and leaving 3 or 4 players in his wake. nobody uses griund strokes anymore so re-introducing it is a start at least. i also believe in hurling or football if you are a defender that you simply must try to spoil or bat when you are close to a player as giving him the ball in any code is almost certainly a scoring opportunity. i would love to see more hooking blocking and flicking balls off hurls but those skills are normally secondary to spoiling as if you have to use the other skills then it means your man has the ball in his hand. cant just change that because you dont like it!! thats where the game has gone.

[bigboyfoolish]

But would you not think that ground hurling couold be resurrected and re-introduced and move it on a level..

I think we are all in agreement that the ball needs to be moving a lot faster.

You can't allow the ball too much time to get bogged down because this is precisely the kind of thing the Kilkenny lads are primed for.

It's how you manage to balance that with the natural tendency in the modern game to pick it..

I agree completely that it could mean back to the drawing board which may or may not be a retro grade step.

I would definitely fear for the long term future of the game in Cork as a whole.

The Religious Orders are no longer there to push the games like they used to.

There are increasing numbers and a vast majority of women in the teaching posts across all the schools. fact!

Should we be doing something to counter act this?

Should there be development officers appointed to go into schools?
The next 5 of 6 years will be fine because we've had good teams over the last couple of years while not winning a whole pile but I wouldn't worry about that too much..

We need a plan. We need vision. We need leadership.

Maybe Donal O'Grady should, {instead of being called upon to resurrect the senior team's fortunes}, and could be the man to come up with this and implement it.
He's a teacher after all and cutely aware judging from the hammerings the Mon took in the Harty this year how the game needs to be administered.

Frank Murphy has done a good job for a long time but is he the man to take us on into the future? Is he the visionary we're looking for?

I don't know..

[duffer31]

But would you not think that ground hurling couold be resurrected and re-introduced and move it on a level..

I think we are all in agreement that the ball needs to be moving a lot faster.

You can't allow the ball too much time to get bogged down because this is precisely the kind of thing the Kilkenny lads are primed for.

It's how you manage to balance that with the natural tendency in the modern game to pick it..

I agree completely that it could mean back to the drawing board which may or may not be a retro grade step.

I would definitely fear for the long term future of the game in Cork as a whole.

The Religious Orders are no longer there to push the games like they used to.

There are increasing numbers and a vast majority of women in the teaching posts across all the schools. fact!

Should we be doing something to counter act this?

Should there be development officers appointed to go into schools?
The next 5 of 6 years will be fine because we've had good teams over the last couple of years while not winning a whole pile but I wouldn't worry about that too much..

We need a plan. We need vision. We need leadership.

Maybe Donal O'Grady should, {instead of being called upon to resurrect the senior team's fortunes}, and could be the man to come up with this and implement it.
He's a teacher after all and cutely aware judging from the hammerings the Mon took in the Harty this year how the game needs to be administered.

Frank Murphy has done a good job for a long time but is he the man to take us on into the future? Is he the visionary we're looking for?

I don't know..



ground hurling could definately be re-introduced but as you say it would have to be a modern developed style of ground hurling but how would it work, i mean go flake a ball on the ground on a pitch for an hour and see how hard it is to direct correctly all the time let alone in poor weather conditions etc. not sure how it would work. as you say i think its obvious the ball needs to be moved quicker but surely grinding this into players by coaching is achievable. i always thought one good way was adopt a quick free style. think of it. every time a free is given in hurling down it goes on the ground and we have ten seconds before it is taken. an attempt is had to put it over the bar by a teams free taker.no problem but think of it like this.

if you told a team to every now and then to rise the ball and play someone in quickly for a goal chance and keep it moving(while defence is expecting it has time to group) then you culd open up things that way. in other words do exactly like we used to do and be innovative with the small things.

as for grass roots hurling i agree there is no longer the mental old school teacher to drive the sports home like the used but that goeas back to my point yesterday about kk having (probably) even woman teachers to at least guide kinda towards hurling. parents are a big influence as well and have the kids playing everything which is fine but they definately angle kids more naturally to hurling in kk. without a doubt. i came out of school in the mid 90's and up to leaving cert i was allowed only play gaa in school and nothing else (principals orders) but that same school now is allowed play soccer,gaa,basketbal l,badmington etc not to mention tae-kwan-do etc. different world but not in kk.

[bigboyfoolish]

different world but not in kk.


and to be fair you should probably try and encourage kids to play as much as possible.
we can't be too narrow minded about this.

It probably ties into an argument on another thread.
Should we be a master of one or a jack of all trades..


By the way has anyone seen the row that's broken out amongst the Dub's.

http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID= 101283

and there we were thinking we were the only ones who wash ourselves in full public view..

http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID= 101310

[Coogee]

Ya I was at that match, and you're right in one respect, they did destroy Cork at every breaking ball, by crowding out in packs.

This is no different from Armagh's 'puke' football strategy from the start of the decade.

Armagh's dominance didn't last too long...

Here's hoping...
what are you on about man..Kilkenny have won 6 of the last 9 all irelands, if thats not dominance then i dont know what is!!!

i really think people are over analysing hurling here...i dont think there is as much tactics in hurling as their is in soccer, gaelic football...

end of the day Kilkenny won the all ireland again this year becasue they had the fastest, fittest,hungriest, most skilful, most accurate, best coached team in the county by a mile and had 5-6 subs who would get on every other team in the country....pulling and dragging had nothing to do with it and anyone who says they are a boring or dirty team hasnt a clue what he is talking about!!

[BlueSkies]

Alot of good points here, but we seem to be split into two camps on KK and are unable to see that maybe both sides have a point. What about the old French essay writing technique, thesis, antithesis, synthesis???

Example. Thesis: KK are the most skillful, aggressive, driven and best coached team in the land.

Antithesis: KK are the dirtiest, most cynical and most boring team in the land.

Synthesis: KK are one of the most skillful, the most aggressive and best coached team in the land, who also happen to be the one of the dirtiest, the most cynical and (possibly) the most clinically boring team in the land. All of which makes them the best in the land.


They hit two wides against waterford and converted 33 chances out of 37, probably the greatest conversion rate in AI final history. They keep going full belt against all teams at all times in the championship, even when winning by 17 points at half time. They have tactically defeated all teams from the off in every single game over the last 3 years, never more so than when refusing to be pulled out of position by waterford players under instruction to do so by davy fitz.

Barry Kelly is notorious for penalising players for petty indiscretions (a la donal og v galway for stepping outta the small square) yet allowing all sorts of body checks go unpunished (anyone remember hickey decapitating Neill Ronan in the first half of the 2006 final?? Not even a free boy!) In spite of the fact that he allowed this filth to happen again in the AI final, he still awarded waterford three times as many frees as he did to KK. Any time a waterford player ran with the ball direct he was dragged down within 60 metres of the kk goal. Brian Cody was the only hurling manager to come out against the sin bin when it introduced, claiming it was ruining hurling, a "man's game", even tho it was introduced to combat cynical fouling, not dirty strokes. Tommy walsh should have been sent off at least twice this year. Finally, a word re boring. Aside from some cracking points from Shefflin way out the field, at least 18 of KK's 24 points from play came from players who struck the ball on their own no more than 40 metres from goal. They brilliantly ground waterford into dust in the opening 15 mins and never took the foot off the pedal, but it was pedestrian stuff for the spectators, unless christians versus lions is your thing.

Ultimately, KK play the physical choking game as a reaction to the possession game that we brought in under O Grady, that failed to develop under Allen, and which fell off a cliff under Ger Mac. So it is really our fault. We can beat it by developing our possession game even further (short puck outs, taking scores consistently from 70 metres and drawing out their half back line in the process - we have the players for this), or we can go back to first time hurling on the ground. In fact, we could go even further back to doubling on the ball in the air, especially everything between the two 45s. If you deign to pick the ball off the ground or catch it in the air, then you must beat the four KK men around you who will each hit you with a shoulder . If you pull or double first time, then you may not play the precision pass of the possession game, but there'll be three loose Cork men waiting for it and chances are they'll do damage more often than not.


If you want to legitimately teach Tommy Walsh a lesson, you stand to the left of him as the ball drops outta the sky, you double hard but true on the ball on your weak side (his hurley will be swinging wildly to his right as he thinks you're there and he wants to hurt you), you connect beautifully with the ball and you take his fingers off, something he's had coming to him for a long time.

Quality post.

[corkuberalles]

Top Drawer post Corkoniense. Re dealing with Walsh bang on. Time to rewind the clock (albeit in as refined a way as possible) remember we won 28 All-irelands playing direct hurling and 2 using the running game.

[bigboyfoolish]

Yes but the game is constantly evolving and unlike as some would have you believe there are a huge amount of tactics involved in the modern version.

Puck outs. Team selection. The dreaded drills. Fitness regimes. Conditioning.
All of these should be adding up to a gameplan that everyone believes in.

And you certainly do NOT go out and hurl Kilkenny man for man.


end of the day Kilkenny won the all ireland again this year becasue they had the fastest, fittest,hungriest, most skilful, most accurate, best coached team in the county


And it's a bit too simple to say that
Kilkenny are the best and that's why they won.

We all know that.

What we're looking at is how and why they have won.

[BlueSkies]

Ground hurling, by and large, is inefficient and obsolete in the modern game. It's just too easy to misplace a ball with a groundstroke.

[KolaKubes]

Yes but the game is constantly evolving and unlike as some would have you believe there are a huge amount of tactics involved in the modern version.

Puck outs. Team selection. The dreaded drills. Fitness regimes. Conditioning.
All of these should be adding up to a gameplan that everyone believes in.

And you certainly do NOT go out and hurl Kilkenny man for man.





And it's a bit too simple to say that
Kilkenny are the best and that's why they won.

We all know that.

What we're looking at is how and why they have won.

Spot on.

It's a pity Cody didn't take that attitude when Cork blew them out of it in Croke Park in 2004 rather than going back and coming up with a new blueprint.

[KolaKubes]

Ground hurling, by and large, is inefficient and obsolete in the modern game. It's just too easy to misplace a ball with a groundstroke.

As opposed to losing the ball trying to pick it up unsuccessfully under pressure?

I'd say the issue is more that if you pull on the ball now with a man any bit in the way, you'll get a free against you.

Perhaps we need to consider that it should be up to the challenging player to mind himself out of the way when the ball is there to be played?

[BlackAvon08]

Skilful, Dirty, well coached, cynical, hungry, boring, aggressive, the best?

Corkoniese sums it up brilliantly, Kilkenny are all of the above.

Kilkenny hurling is in a very healthy state at the moment but let’s not be too negative in Cork – we’re not that far off the game.

In the ’06 final I felt John Allen was somewhat naive in the thinking we could beat Kilkenny a second time without adapting our tactics. It was clear that Kilkenny wouldn’t allow us to run through them as we did in ‘04. We needed to mix it up a little and land some high ones into Corcoran. We didn’t, we were predictable and paid a big price…the 3-in-a-row was very achievable. The strange thing is that in the ’05 final against Galway we did mix it up! We threw Galway off their guard by playing some more direct hurling – we were good enough to beat Galway either way!

For the past 2 years we haven’t had any distinctive pattern to our play – the games we won were won by our players’ individual skill, bravery & hunger to win. Gerald Mac is a gentleman, a sportsman & contributed greatly to Cork hurling over a long career, he owes Cork nothing but he was the wrong man for the job. Our coaching let us down. It was painful to watch us land puckout after puckout on top of a hapless Pa Cronin marked by 3 KK defenders. Brian Cody must have thought all his Christmases came at once. Our players still have the skills, speed, heart, courage & HUNGER to win, we could have won that game if the coaching was right.

Hurling doesn’t stand still. I agree with the other posters that we need to adapt our playing style once again. Don’t throw out our possession / running game as it still suits our players, but we do need to introduce some more First Time direct hurling on the ground & in the air – particularly in the middle third of the field. Above all, the first thing I would do is go back to the Donal O’Grady mantra of basics – striking, lifting, hooking, blocking etc.

If we put things in order, All Ireland number 31 is there for us in 2009.

[bigboyfoolish]

[quote=BlackAvon08;22 40541] It was painful to watch us land puckout after puckout on top of a hapless Pa Cronin marked by 3 KK defenders. Brian Cody must have thought all his Christmases came at once. [quote]


First off I couldn't agree more with that.

It was all too predictable. Cody had been at our game against Galway and he was also there when we beat Clare.

"Make sure Pa Cronin wins nothing clean. He's their target man and about the only decent ball winning forward they have."

I could almost hear it..
Once they had that sussed they were home and hosed..

Timmy Mac should have started that game. Joe Deane shouldn't have.

Timmy would have been more able for the physical stuff and Deano would have been better off waiting til things opened up a little. It was much too stifled in that first half for Deano to pick up any loose ball never mind having to contend with Noel 'I eat small children' Hickey..

To play this Kilkenny team as much as I'm loath to admit it but it's the only conclusion I can draw from it all is that any Cork team picked to go out and play them in the future; the first attribute has to be physique/stomach for battle/hardiness.

You can have all the skill in the world aginst these fellas
--IT WILL BE NO GOOD!

[stevetharlear]

Ground hurling, by and large, is inefficient and obsolete in the modern game. It's just too easy to misplace a ball with a groundstroke.

Nobody's saying we should go out there and play nothing but ground hurling. That'd be dopey.

Just to put the KK gameplan off in the future maybe throw in 15 or 20 groundstrokes during the game to negate their swarming. That way our FF line have some chance of decent ball rather than us losing possession of the ball or KK conceding a 50 yard free EVERY time it lands in the Half Forward line.

I have faith that there's enough Hurling brains in Cork, whether involved with the panel or not, that are as hurt and alarmed as most of us are with the way it went this year, I have a feeling next year could be a good one, with the right people in charge hopefully.

[bigboyfoolish]

Gerald will be in charge and probably still feels that he can win one for Cork.

I would completely concure with a poster above. Gerald is a gentleman.

Top notch bolke who has given his life blood to Cork.
But is he too nice?

I'd like to see someone with a little more devil in them take charge.
O'Grady would be perfect. Not only does he instil total confidence in his players and
the supporters he has a steely determination to succeed and win..

[BlueSkies]

Nobody's saying we should go out there and play nothing but ground hurling. That'd be dopey.

Just to put the KK gameplan off in the future maybe throw in 15 or 20 groundstrokes during the game to negate their swarming. That way our FF line have some chance of decent ball rather than us losing possession of the ball or KK conceding a 50 yard free EVERY time it lands in the Half Forward line.

I have faith that there's enough Hurling brains in Cork, whether involved with the panel or not, that are as hurt and alarmed as most of us are with the way it went this year, I have a feeling next year could be a good one, with the right people in charge hopefully.

Don't get me wrong, there are times when pulling on the ground is the right thing to do, but I think this is all a bit of a kneejerk reaction to Kilkenny swarming us around the middle third in the semi final.
The two main factors behind this IMO were:
1. Our hopeless puckout strategy. Any of our half back line should have been coming short for the ball when the Kilkenny half forward line dropped back. Instead our lads followed them and crowded things even further.

2. Very poor first touch and too slow getting the ball into hand. This was apparent all year, but Kilkenny really punished it.

[bigboyfoolish]

we all agree that we played into their hands a bit..

I think it's more than that.

I think physically we were intimidated and they knew it..

The big games are won by the more cynical teams.
There is a huge amount of naievity in our play IMO.

We need to get low down and dirty ourselves.

The next Cork training session call in the top 60 players in the county.

Give everyone a half an hour each.

Throw in the ball and let em at it.

The last 30 standing want to play for Cork.

Every training session that follows likewise.

[bigboyfoolish]

http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID= 101904


Interesting to see who comes out first in relation to the new rules..

Now it probably is as it should be. They're Champions and are entitled to their opinion
but it's funny how it's worded. He doesn't actually come out and say these won't work and shouldn't be introduced.

An interesting take on it.. 'lets' get the players on board..'

But is he saying he's for or aginst the new proposals..

I don't think they will be passed either way.